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maniza
06-03-2013, 02:19 AM
im sick of seeing this on the comments of every interview i see. so lets explain why this game is DIFERENT to MTG.
im an old mtg player, stoped playing about 5 years ago so things may have changed but as far as i can tell there are many important things that make this game diferent and in my humble opinion a better game.
first threshold and resources are an improvement over mana because they make the game easier to play help prevent mana screw and once we get dual threshold one resource cards it will help eliminate color screw to. Even thou that is not something ovious its a big improvement if you think about it.
Then there are the mecanics wich are diferent and most of the time take advantage from the digital format. yes some of the basic mecanics are borrowed from magic but they also add new intresting ideas that once again refresh the basic formula. also there is socket mecanic wich gives players ways to costumize cards fro specific needs.
The champions. this is also something that the digital nature of the game helps to implement. their special charge powers will make picking the right one for your deck a crucial part of the strategy. i know once again this does not seems like something important but once you try it you can see how it makes a big diference on how the game plays.
Then there is the overal card design. i get a more trival vive in this game and you can see that many cards generate cituations that would be a nightmare to keep track of in real life. since this cituations are only effective in the digital format they will change the way the game feels.
I see that the cost of some of the cards seems a bit higher that what a mtg counterpart would be. i have the felling this is on purpose to make the flow of the game a bit slower than mtg.
Also i think that each of the colors while familiar will play diferently and have a diferent feel to them in terms of mecanics.
And of course the pve aspect of the game wich will make players much more invested in the lore of the game and makes the cards much more intresting and the game much more comepelling from a narrative point of view.something i allways thought magic was lacking. cause you could se the cards but didnt realy understood the origin of that card or why it existed in the first place.
This is what i can see from the cards that are out but im shure that there are more diferences. the thing is some of the similarities are ovious. this is ofcourse because cryto instead of trying to re-invent the weel, took one of the best engines that a tcg can have and then modernized it made small changes that when added thogether make for a what i think will be a bastly diferent game, one that will have a familiar feel but also that will be new and exiting. calling this game a mtg clone is like calling every fps that came after half life 2 a clone of that. and that is just not true the gameplay may be similar but each game ads changes and improvements to the formula to make it feel unique and that is what i think its happening here. hex is making improvents where needed instead of trying to make the weel square shaped just for the sake of beeing diferent.

ps: sry for my spelling english is not my native language.

wallofomens
06-03-2013, 02:29 AM
Jesus, this was hard to read. Not because of your spelling, but because of your text formatting.

HEX is extremely similar to MtG, whether you want to call it a clone or not. It borrows extremely heavily from MtG in many areas so I'd go as far as to call it a MtG clone. I'm not saying it as a bad thing though. HEX has a ton of new stuff too, that is its own. I really hope that HEX does succeed, because it has the potential to dominate the dTCG(MMO) market.

Verdant
06-03-2013, 02:30 AM
Right sentiment, wrong crowd. You do realize you're pleading at forum full of excited and hyped up HEX backers, right? xD

maniza
06-03-2013, 02:37 AM
sry about format im sleepy, just wanted to point out why i see them as diferent games. hex does borrows alot from mtg that is for shure but calling it a clone does not makes justice to the game and the effort they put in this game.

maniza
06-03-2013, 02:39 AM
Right sentiment, wrong crowd. You do realize you're pleading at forum full of excited and hyped up HEX backers, right? xD

there is a good amount of people in the forums calling this game a clone. maybe its just me but the word clone just sounds despective

Krenos
06-03-2013, 04:37 AM
MtG is one of the oldest and most successful TCGs around today. ANY new TCG is gonna be compared to MtG till it fades. Best I can say is, lets make Hex the gold standard and knock MtG off its horse. Then every TCG will be compared to Hex!

nrflorencio
06-03-2013, 04:40 AM
Sorry OP...

This is the closest i have ever seen to an MTG clone!
Only the new things that can be done because it is digital separate them...
So... An ENHANCED clone maybe?

Izhim_ur-Baal
06-03-2013, 05:10 AM
Speaking about hex, it's mtg clone with different set of cards and one additional basic game mechanic (heroes who have their own abilities that are used every 2-3 resources - very similar to shadow era), and one changed game mechanic (lands give any type of mana as long as meet the target amount of correct resources).

I don't think hex can beat the mtg, but it can totally outclass it's digital version.

V:tES is still best creation of creator of MtG.

wallofomens
06-03-2013, 05:15 AM
Speaking about hex, it's mtg clone with different set of cards and one additional basic game mechanic (heroes who have their own abilities that are used every 2-3 resources - very similar to shadow era), and one changed game mechanic (lands give any type of mana as long as meet the target amount of correct resources).

I don't think hex can beat the mtg, but it can totally outclass it's digital version.

V:tES is still best creation of creator of MtG.

There's also socketing, all sorts of digital card mechanics, guilds, online community and not to mention all the PvE content which I'm getting so impressed by with each passing day that I'm thinking of seriously delving into.

Lunarath
06-03-2013, 05:17 AM
This is like Mewtwo to Mew. A better and stronger clone of the original

Fireblast
06-03-2013, 05:24 AM
It's not a clone, it's the upgrade (which could be worse, equal or better).

~

wallofomens
06-03-2013, 05:36 AM
It's not a clone, it's the upgrade (which could be worse, equal or better).

~

Well, if we have to be literal upgrade is always better, it "ups the grade"! :D But, yeah, I'm gonna go with it is better:

1. It is digital - I can play whenever I want.
2. It is quite refreshing - all sorts of possibilites with the game.
4. It is much cheaper than MtG, like at least three times.
5. GO HEX!~

EDIT: Hahahaha, I just saw I skipped 3. but I'm leaving it like this just cause. :D

Wombat
06-03-2013, 05:45 AM
It feels very similar to MTG actually.
The resource system, which you call different is infact somewhat compareable. In Hex you have threshold, which is the overall mana cost and then you have an additional requirement in specific resources. So http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/evolve_big.png in MTG terms would be a 1 green 2colorless mana spell. E: Edited this part because i was wrong

Yes there are certain new game mechanics, but 85-95% of the game mechanics are exactly the same as in MTG. You could even argue that some of the new mechanics like the "gem" mechanic are very comparable to MTG mechanics such as 2cards in one, which also leaves you with the choice of how to use a specific card. For mechanics that are absolutely the same we have: first strike, haste, no tap when attack, cant be blocked, flying, forest-swamp-xxx-walk, ... I could even bet that players will call the abilities like the MTG counterpart, since you just know the terms.

So in fact if you only look at the PvP part, there is little difference between the games.

BUT

does this make Hex bad, or a clone in a negative way?

As to my background. I played MTG in school, 10+ Years ago. I played what 4-5th edition, still have my cards and my brothers cards from iceage and stuff. I never played competitive PvP, just with friends and with ppl from school. I havent played any TCG for 10 years. And to me the answer of the question above is NO, BECAUSE it is similar to MTG and it is still new, i feel i can get a grasp on the game really easy. I would never start with MTG again tho, simply because the size of the editions, cards and the experience of other players mean to big of a entry barrier to me that i do not have with Hex.
In addition to that, Hex provides an entire PvE system which is like an own game to itself it looks like (i mean 40 dungeons,WHAT?). Moreover the PvE system lowers the entry barrier even more since you can practice and learn about your cards and deck first, before starting to PvP other people.
So to me, Yes Hex is a MTG clone, like Dota2 is a Dota clone, but does this makes the game bad, No because they improved on certain parts and have a significantly lower barrier for new players to enter. The downside i can see the possibility that the TCG-scene, which i not belong to (as mentioned above), will shit storm the game for being MTG2.0 and MTG is the holy grail of TCGs and therefore the game will simply not get enough of the players that matter, the hardcore ones.

Fireblast
06-03-2013, 05:52 AM
It feels very similar to MTG actually.
The resource system, which you call different is infact 100% the same. In Hex you have threshold, which is the overall mana cost and then you have an additional requirement in specific resources. So http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/evolve_big.png in MTG terms would be a 1 green 2colorless mana spell. So the resource system has the exact same mechanic, it is only displayed different.

Not exactly, you could have 1 of each threshold (and 5 resources) and be able to play 5 times a 1 wild threshold 1 cost card.
Threshold doesn't deplete, it just enables.



Yes there are certain new game mechanics, but 85-95% of the game mechanics are exactly the same as in MTG. You could even argue that some of the new mechanics like the "gem" mechanic are very comparable to MTG mechanics such as 2cards in one, which also leaves you with the choice of how to use a specific card. For mechanics that are absolutely the same we have: first strike, haste, no tap when attack, cant be blocked, flying, forest-swamp-xxx-walk, ... I could even bet that players will call the abilities like the MTG counterpart, since you just know the terms.

How do you want the basic keyword to be different.
All TCG are doing stuff that exists in MtG, not cause they copy, but because MtG did everything physical cards allow you to do.



So in fact if you only look at the PvP part, there is little difference between the games.

BUT

does this make Hex bad, or a clone in a negative way?

As to my background. I played MTG in school, 10+ Years ago. I played what 4-5th edition, still have my cards and my brothers cards from iceage and stuff. I never played competitive PvP, just with friends and with ppl from school. I havent played any TCG for 10 years. And to me the answer of the question above is NO, BECAUSE it is similar to MTG and it is still new, i feel i can get a grasp on the game really easy. I would never start with MTG again tho, simply because the size of the editions, cards and the experience of other players mean to big of a entry barrier to me that i do not have with Hex.
In addition to that, Hex provides an entire PvE system which is like an own game to itself it looks like (i mean 40 dungeons,WHAT?). Moreover the PvE system lowers the entry barrier even more since you can practice and learn about your cards and deck first, before starting to PvP other people.
So to me, Yes Hex is a MTG clone, like Dota2 is a Dota clone, but does this makes the game bad, No because they improved on certain parts and have a significantly lower barrier for new players to enter. The downside i can see the possibility that the TCG-scene, which i not belong to (as mentioned above), will shit storm the game for being MTG2.0 and MTG is the holy grail of TCGs and therefore the game will simply not get enough of the players that matter, the hardcore ones.

The MtG pro-players will come to HEX for either of these 2 reasons :
- It's funny, and they like having fun (already implemented)
- They can make money out of it. (CZE is working on it)

~

jai151
06-03-2013, 06:00 AM
If this were a WOTC product, it would be "HEX: Magic Evolved"

Yes, it leans heavily on its predecessor, but then again how many pen and paper RPGS could be called D&D clones? Hell, when it was released, WoW was called a more forgiving EverQuest clone. The trick is not to break the genre but to take it to the next logical level. Hex took MTGO and improved the heck out of it, broke all ties with the physical and exploited the crap out of that, then said, "What the heck, why don't we take on Shandalar while we're at it?"

Tathel
06-03-2013, 06:04 AM
Hex is to Magic what Pathfinder Is to D&D 3.5

WoTC is apparently good at making things that can be improved!

Draugr
06-03-2013, 06:13 AM
Reading this made me think of
654
I haven't played MtG in almost 20 years but watching the game play videos certainly reminded me of it. I wouldn't say that's a bad thing, I'm sure that will draw some people to the game.

MugenMusou
06-03-2013, 06:31 AM
I am planning to write a little about this on my blog as well but hex is new in sense really went off based on the king of tcg. Many tcg had tried to be far different from magic but never came close to it. Yu gi oh is a different story. But hex admits whats best and modifies it. The changes look small when looking at pieces but maybe signicant as a whole. Some called this as magic 2.0, which may be a right description and certainly seems to be the intention of the devs.

Fireblast
06-03-2013, 06:33 AM
I am planning to write a little about this on my blog as well but hex is new in sense really went off based on the king of tcg. Many tcg had tried to be far different from magic but never came close to it. Yu gi oh is a different story. But hex admits whats best and modifies it. The changes look small when looking at pieces but maybe signicant as a whole. Some called this as magic 2.0, which may be a right description and certainly seems to be the intention of the devs.

The intention of the devs is to make the best TCG experience from scratch with a full digital engine attached to it (thanks to 20 years of feedback from all the other games).
The fact that they got this close to MtG just means that Richard Garfield is pure genius.

~

geddoe
06-03-2013, 06:34 AM
Hex is an MTG clone. That doesn't make it bad. But it is true.

Genocidal
06-03-2013, 06:58 AM
Yes, at its core Hex is a Magic clone. No, I don't think this is a bad thing. It gives them a clear target audience to start with, makes the game easy to learn for people familiar with TCGs, and makes it easy to give an "elevator pitch" to your friends at which point you can dive further into details if that catches their interest.

jai151
06-03-2013, 06:58 AM
Hex is an MTG clone. That doesn't make it bad. But it is true.

Meh. If it's a clone of Magic, they cloned the Unglued/Unhinged sets =P

Xenavire
06-03-2013, 07:36 AM
I don't mind how people refer to it as long as they acknowledge that the hex team is trying to fix every issue MTG had, while coming up with a decent balance and fresh ideas.

MTG was good, but it has become rather stale. I haven't seen much to excite me since Ravnica block cycled, and I doubt they will do anything soon to make me willing to drop money on it again. Hex is a gamechanger, and it calls all kinds if TCG players - if the MTG crowd are the majority, thats fine - most of them were fun to hang around.

Thrawn
06-03-2013, 07:56 AM
It's a MtG clone and that's why I'm excited for it. I love MtG but Magic Online is a terrible waste of potential, that's most of the reason I backed Hex. Cryptozoic seems to really know what they are doing and be full of great ideas that they will actually implement.

It doesn't have to be a negative thing.

Tyrfang
06-03-2013, 08:05 AM
MTGO is a waste of potential.
DOTP is a waste of potential.

MTGO + DOTP would be nice...
Not sure why they never did that.

volkmar77
06-03-2013, 08:06 AM
Of all the various TCGs around, HEX surely resemble much more Magic than any other.
It does not have the resource management of WoW TCG nor the creature focus of Pokemon, nor the different mechanics from Yu gi Oh or Duel Masters (traps, lanes etc.).

It does not have the complexity of Vampire nor the asymetric gameplay of Netrunner and I could go on here for a month saying what HEX is NOT like.

It is VERY much like MtG, yeah. I do not think we can deny that. Yes, it has a lots of improvements, but the basics are all there:

- Color-based resource system
- 5 colors, with the same flavor for each color too. Only difference is Black is called Blood and is colored Purple.
- Artefacts cards
- All the same keywords
- Same system of priority and stack
- Same types of cards, instant, sorcery, creature cards, enchantments, they just have different names and maybe some types are missing (have seen no auras so far)
- Same combat system with attackers generally attacking while blockers choose who they block.
- Creature health reset after combat
- Same turn structure: Untap -> Maintenance -> Draw -> Main phase -> Combat -> Second Main Pahase -> Discard -> End turn. with different terms of course.
- Same 7 cards, 20 health

Even having a Champion as your dude was done in MtGO with Avatars.

BUT none of this is bad. MtG is the most popular of TCGs for a reason and that reason is that it is a damn good system. Having something that improves it while going 100% digital is AWESOME.

MrCwis
06-03-2013, 08:23 AM
MtG is The TCG, it's be around for 20 years, has thousands upon thousand of unique cards, and has many more players. Every TCG that is made will be compared to it, and being called a clone isn't always a bad thing. Hex being purely digital can and will be doing many things that's impossible for magic, as a physical TCG, to do. This difference allows them to be completely different games. Yes there will be overlap in basic mechanics, MtG has done so much, and covered so much design space that this is impossible to avoid without taking away a lot of what will make this a good game. The focus of Hex is being digital and is what will make it better or worst than magic and to find that out we will have to wait til it's released and we all get a chance to play it.

Punk
06-03-2013, 08:28 AM
This is like Mewtwo to Mew. A better and stronger clone of the original

I hate you so much for this analogy.. but damn is it accurate.

BenRGamer
06-03-2013, 08:41 AM
I'd call it less a clone and more an evolution. I don't hear people calling it a magic clone, I hear people calling it Magic 2.0

Googolplex
06-03-2013, 08:44 AM
Its an evolved MTG clone - end of discussion.

maniza
06-03-2013, 09:35 AM
i just feel that the word clone implies that you copy something and do nothing original: see gameloft or zynga. i think hex is more of a evolution of the core concept, they could have done some more to diferentiate from mtg but i guess they wanted people to feel verry familiar whit the concept.

Thanisse
06-03-2013, 09:39 AM
well , from the looks of it it's like wow and magic had babies :P
severely 3rd person limited babies , but it's there xD .

this takes the most out of an MM RPG and puts it in cards like magic ...

I really like the combination :)
it makes for a great game ... so stop complaining and enjoy , no matter who's right on this issue .

jaxsonbateman
06-03-2013, 10:48 AM
In response to the first post:

1. Threshold is an improvement over land; I'll give you that. Though it makes it easier to play multicolor decks than in Magic - some will consider that a good thing for accessibility in deck construction; some will consider that bad for making monocolor decks less viable (as there's very little drawback to branching into a second color's power).

2. There are some different mechanics - but most of them, like escalate, feel like stuff that could have been done with an MTG expansion. Same with socketing - definitely doable in MTG (using checklist cards like they did with dual face cards).

3. Champions are pretty much the vanguard casual format in Magic.

4. Situations might be harder to represent in Magic, like permanent changes that stay on cards as they change zones - but it's quite possible, for sure.

5. The PvE side of things is something Magic doesn't offer, given than Magic is pretty much just a PvP game. The closest thing is Duels of the Planeswalkers, though their challenges is the closest thing to the PvE Hex is offering, with the normal campaign just a series of normal matches.

Look, it's not Magic, but it's very similar, and while it's easier to put these mechanics and rules in a digital game, it's not impossible to do it within Magic. However, they are introducing a lot of mechanics, new cards, digital-specialty stuff, PvE - an MMO of all things, and generally a new game that will be fun. Anyway, saying the game is a lot like Magic isn't an insult at all - Magic is awesome, and Hex looks similar, yet looks even more fun because of their design initiative.

Purgatus
06-03-2013, 11:13 AM
The building blocks are clearly taken from Magic. It's pretty obvious to anyone. What they have chosen to do with those building blocks is what makes this game different.

Much of what they do is not impossible to do, just that no sane company would try and do it with physical cards. That is where Hex becomes its own thing. They embraced the virtual space and left physical copies FAR, FAR, behind.

Cotton
06-03-2013, 11:16 AM
Your title reads of a whiney child. Then it's a big wall of txt that starts without a capital.

ConnorJS
06-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Mate it is MTG, although they seem to have improved upon it loads with all the digital features... All the effects are the same with different keywords, combat works the same and the lifepoints works the same. However it looks amazing with all the extra stuff they've put in

Apparition
06-03-2013, 12:24 PM
I hope this will be a much cheaper form of MTG, as it was stated.

ForgedSol
06-03-2013, 12:31 PM
It is so much a clone of Magic that I literally couldn't get my mind off how exactly it was like Magic for a couple hours after I learned about the project, and I had to think about how I felt about backing the project.

Five colors + Artifacts, 20 Life, 60 Card Decks, 4 Max Per Card, 7 Card Hands, Creatures, Spells, Instants, Mana, Tapping, Combat mechanics... it's all there. Any or all of it could have been changed. It could have been 50 card decks, it could have been 3 Max Copies Per Card. We could have started with 30 life. But no, it's almost all the same. In the end it was just the mana that was modified, addition of a champion, and the opening of design space that was added due to being online only.

Its Magic exactness is what made it easy to see the potential here, as well as be a little bit of concern at first about any official Wizards response, and yet the potential won out in my case. There is no denying it is Magic+.

jai151
06-03-2013, 12:36 PM
It is so much a clone of Magic that I literally couldn't get my mind off how exactly it was like Magic for a couple hours after I learned about the project, and I had to think about how I felt about backing the project.

Five colors + Artifacts, 20 Life, 60 Card Decks, 4 Max Per Card, 7 Card Hands, Creatures, Spells, Instants, Mana, Tapping, Combat mechanics... it's all there. Any or all of it could have been changed. It could have been 50 card decks, it could have been 3 Max Copies Per Card. We could have started with 30 life. But no, it's almost all the same. In the end it was just the mana that was modified, addition of a champion, and the opening of design space that was added due to being online only.

Its Magic exactness is what made it easy to see the potential here, as well as be a little bit of concern at first about any official Wizards response, and yet the potential won out in my case. There is no denying it is Magic+.

The thing is changing any of those things would be change for change's sake. If you're gonna build a new car, you don't give it 5 wheels just to be different.

Tyrfang
06-03-2013, 12:38 PM
The thing is changing any of those things would be change for change's sake. If you're gonna build a new car, you don't give it 5 wheels just to be different.

I feel this is appropriately off-topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8

jai151
06-03-2013, 12:42 PM
I feel this is appropriately off-topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQh56geU0X8

Watching Stig take it around the track was my favorite bit with the Robin.

Tarantel
06-03-2013, 12:51 PM
Your title reads of a whiney child. Then it's a big wall of txt that starts without a capital.

Uhhmmm.... Thank you Cpt. Obvious, I guess?

thx42
06-03-2013, 12:57 PM
The thing is changing any of those things would be change for change's sake. If you're gonna build a new car, you don't give it 5 wheels just to be different.

Has anybody else made a TCG (paper or digital) with exactly the same attributes as Magic? (colors, 20 life, deck size, card limit, hand size, card types, turn sequence, combat rules)

Even other TCGs made by WotC or Richard Garfield have had some variety of rules. Duel Masters (Kaijudo) is close, but there are some big differences.

ForgedSol
06-03-2013, 01:05 PM
The thing is changing any of those things would be change for change's sake. If you're gonna build a new car, you don't give it 5 wheels just to be different.

I wouldn't say that. It depends on what you consider to be change's sake.

Maybe the life total one you could say that about. Maybe. Starting at 30 life would have changed a redesign of nearly every card in the game, and take a lot of balancing, but the game would be fairly similar, if maybe a bit longer, with larger spells possibly being more relevant, depending on how the cards are designed. But longer games might not be what's wanted. Games are long enough as it is.

On the other hand, changing max copies of a card to three changes a couple things. It would change how consistent your draws are, and would require decks to rely on a wider variety of cards. That can be good or bad depending if it makes things too random or not. And that in turn would affect the price of cards for if rarities are the same. That could be nice depending on how you want your secondary market to shape up. A larger variety of cards in each set will become playable and the money spent per set in the secondary market would be spread to more cards.

Of course if changing the max copies to three makes things too random, but 60/4 isn't random enough? You can then tweak the max deck size to adjust the balance of variety vs luck.

Together, those two changes will do a major overhaul in the gaming, buying, and designing experience.

Changing life totals will affect the power level of every card in the game and creatures and spells have to be designed accordingly.

Fireblast
06-03-2013, 01:22 PM
Has anybody else made a TCG (paper or digital) with exactly the same attributes as Magic? (colors, 20 life, deck size, card limit, hand size, card types, turn sequence, combat rules)

Even other TCGs made by WotC or Richard Garfield have had some variety of rules. Duel Masters (Kaijudo) is close, but there are some big differences.

You cannot make MtG2.0 with physical cards, that's why nobody tried

~

jai151
06-03-2013, 04:10 PM
I wouldn't say that. It depends on what you consider to be change's sake.

Maybe the life total one you could say that about. Maybe. Starting at 30 life would have changed a redesign of nearly every card in the game, and take a lot of balancing, but the game would be fairly similar, if maybe a bit longer, with larger spells possibly being more relevant, depending on how the cards are designed. But longer games might not be what's wanted. Games are long enough as it is.

On the other hand, changing max copies of a card to three changes a couple things. It would change how consistent your draws are, and would require decks to rely on a wider variety of cards. That can be good or bad depending if it makes things too random or not. And that in turn would affect the price of cards for if rarities are the same. That could be nice depending on how you want your secondary market to shape up. A larger variety of cards in each set will become playable and the money spent per set in the secondary market would be spread to more cards.

Of course if changing the max copies to three makes things too random, but 60/4 isn't random enough? You can then tweak the max deck size to adjust the balance of variety vs luck.

Together, those two changes will do a major overhaul in the gaming, buying, and designing experience.

Changing life totals will affect the power level of every card in the game and creatures and spells have to be designed accordingly.

I wasn't saying they wouldn't have an effect on the gameplay. What I was saying was each of those changes were suggested simply to be different from Magic when there's no real need to do so. WoW did the same thing when it launched with going to level 60 rather than EverQuest's 50 and by having one less person complete a group. It really didn't bring anything exciting to the game, it just made it different.

Hex has PvE. It has its unique design space, it doesn't need to muddy tried and true rules just to be different.

ForgedSol
06-03-2013, 04:14 PM
I wasn't saying they wouldn't have an effect on the gameplay. What I was saying was each of those changes were suggested simply to be different from Magic when there's no real need to do so. WoW did the same thing when it launched with going to level 60 rather than EverQuest's 50 and by having one less person complete a group. It really didn't bring anything exciting to the game, it just made it different.

Hex has PvE. It has its unique design space, it doesn't need to muddy tried and true rules just to be different.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I feel like changing the max copies per deck and deck size could potentially have as much change on the gameplay as splitting threshold from mana. It's a small change, but wasn't made for change's sake, and seems comparable.

Betrayed
06-03-2013, 04:17 PM
It's not just magic the gathering, its a better version of it. :3 Didn't read much of anything. Me and my roommate backed it 'warrior' tier. We both played magic, though due to complications, have no more cards. So perfect game, cant wait for its launch.

Gabo
06-10-2013, 09:41 AM
I think Hex is an awesome idea but it undeniably gets its base gameplay from Magic. That's by no means a bad thing, but I've noticed how all the terms have completely different names and that got me wondering: Have the creators acknowledged in any way (videos, articles, posts, etc...) the fact that the game is inspired by Magic: The Gathering? It would seem like the right thing to do unless it was a bad idea marketingwise or there were legal issues.

Prism
06-10-2013, 09:47 AM
big ole wall of text... you say the game is better because you dont get as much 'mana screw'? That is retarded. Build your deck properly and you won't get 'mana screw'. Or netdeck, because clearly you suck at TCGs.

I believe people are calling this game a mtg clone because almost all of the cards are direct copies of mtg cards. Almost all of the keywords come from mtg. Still, I think its fine, if a tad unethical

jai151
06-10-2013, 09:50 AM
I think Hex is an awesome idea but it undeniably gets its base gameplay from Magic. That's by no means a bad thing, but I've noticed how all the terms have completely different names and that got me wondering: Have the creators acknowledged in any way (videos, articles, posts, etc...) the fact that the game is inspired by Magic: The Gathering? It would seem like the right thing to do unless it was a bad idea marketingwise or there were legal issues.

Yay for necros.

Publicly acknowledging inspiration can be used as evidence of copyright violation.

Mugaaz
06-10-2013, 09:57 AM
Yay for necros.

Publicly acknowledging inspiration can be used as evidence of copyright violation.

This game comes out after Magic copyright expires, don't think thats a coincidence.

Turtlewing
06-10-2013, 10:01 AM
This game comes out after Magic copyright expires, don't think thats a coincidence.

No it doesn't copyright is death of author + 75 years. Richard Garfield is (i believe) still alive. You're probably thinking of the patent.

jaxsonbateman
06-10-2013, 10:13 AM
They haven't acknowledged Magic directly afaik, but they have said that they did look at what was good and worked in other TCGs, and didn't mess with things that were beneficial - if it ain't broke, don't fix it, to paraphrase.

Yasi
06-10-2013, 10:13 AM
Who called this an MTG clone again?

Tyrfang
06-10-2013, 10:16 AM
This game comes out after Magic copyright expires, don't think thats a coincidence.

I think the word you were looking for is patent, not copyright.

Omegahugger
06-10-2013, 10:18 AM
As you say, these are all copied cards.
But there is no rule that says an imitation cannot defeat the original.
If you say you are the original, I will surpass every one of your creatures and destroy your life points.
Here I come, King of Card Games!
Do you have enough Counters in stock?

Mugaaz
06-10-2013, 10:18 AM
I think the word you were looking for is patent, not copyright.

Yes, my bad

MugenMusou
06-10-2013, 11:05 AM
Timely bump by someone. Today's my blog post is related to this.

http://houshasen.wordpress.com/2013/06/10/%E3%80%90hex%E3%80%91is-hex-a-magic-clone/

RanaDunes
06-10-2013, 12:09 PM
No it doesn't copyright is death of author + 75 years. Richard Garfield is (i believe) still alive. You're probably thinking of the patent.

Richard Garfield is not the owner of MTG, Wizards of the Coast is.
MTG is not a book or a song and Richard Garfield is not its author, he's the designer.

Hex is extremely identical, mechanically, to MTG and that is exactly why I am here.
There's NOTHING wrong with taking something that works and make it better. The only thing I hate about the gaming industry is the simplification of games, finally someone who got the balls to release a game with the same complex mechanics as MTG.

Butterbeast
06-10-2013, 12:54 PM
well the many similarities to mtg made it more apealing to me knowing stuff like haste trample first strike ect. would be there

MrCwis
06-10-2013, 01:17 PM
well the many similarities to mtg made it more apealing to me knowing stuff like haste trample first strike ect. would be there

It would be hard to make a competitive TCG with out these keywords.

keroko
06-10-2013, 01:34 PM
mtg rules and structure of game has remarkable similarity with hex. turn structure, available resource ramp and spend mechanics. instants, enchantments, sorceries... some cards are direct lifts with minor changes - deck size, tourney formats (assumed) and on.

this is not necessarily a bad thing - as mtg does many things very well.

mtg and hopefully hex balance their sets well. mtg cycles them out keeping it expensive to play competitively but not impossible for new players against veterans who'd otherwise have massive depth of call through the decades of mega-cards. the stuff that cycles out is what different format games are for - where ancient forgotten and often forbidden wishes can persist.

i dont know if they intend to age sets out of a 'standard' / 'modern' block or whatever. it stops mayors who're werewolves sometimes when they go out of block. i think that's good for competition. plus you get a more interesting trade market, and the potential for card ressurection in later sets (always nice).

all in all the card library is how you won and fought your wars, it is treasured and secret. each and every card will mark what you've done.

I do hope there's tools that track a champion's progress - like what they used at different points in their career for decks. like a thread of color use through the leveling. are they resetting card stats on trade? im not clear on that.

if hex is like mtg / mtgo / planeswalkers - and it lets us have a decent solid tcg experience in a UI that's modern and cross platform and cheap (with good art) with many novel features then clone it up.

hex introduces many mechanics that something like MTG might not be able to easily on paper - without a lot of hassle. equips per card, lvling champs, per card xp, doubleback, and much more besides. mtgo lets you turn complete sets of digital cards into paper ones - hex does not need to transform its ruleset to account for / make fun the amount of paper you'd need to write down all the rracking it does.

it has great art. magic has great art. clone go, more shin'hare!

cronedog
06-10-2013, 01:52 PM
I think the word you were looking for is patent, not copyright.

Which has not expired either.

cronedog
06-10-2013, 01:56 PM
It would be hard to make a competitive TCG with out these keywords.

I feel like too many conflate TCG with MTG, many games do without these keywords and use different game mechanics alltogether.

Halthrax
06-10-2013, 01:57 PM
There are similarities between Hex and MTG... but there are similarities between any 2 games of the same genre. Hex is going to be able to do a lot of things MTG can't, and is providing a completely different experience via the PVE dungeon/raid systems. I'm psyched, and if you are not... why are you here?

Fireblast
06-10-2013, 02:54 PM
I feel like too many conflate TCG with MTG, many games do without these keywords and use different game mechanics alltogether.

Once the rules are equivalent, keywords will be equivalent.
Keywords are meant to complement/cheat rules.

~

stiii
06-10-2013, 03:45 PM
big ole wall of text... you say the game is better because you dont get as much 'mana screw'? That is retarded. Build your deck properly and you won't get 'mana screw'. Or netdeck, because clearly you suck at TCGs.



What exactly do you think mana screw means? There is no magical way in magic to prevent mana screw 100% of the time. Maybe you should netdeck less and try to understand what you are talking about first.

Tyrfang
06-10-2013, 03:47 PM
What exactly do you think mana screw means? There is no magical way in magic to prevent mana screw 100% of the time. Maybe you should netdeck less and try to understand what you are talking about first.

Well, there is. It just requires stuff like 4x Black Lotus and 20x Moxes. :)

Apparition
06-10-2013, 04:44 PM
Well, there is. It just requires stuff like 4x Black Lotus and 20x Moxes. :)

I use 56 forests and 4 Llanowar Elves. Never had a problem with mana.

cronedog
06-10-2013, 05:02 PM
There are similarities between Hex and MTG... but there are similarities between any 2 games of the same genre. Hex is going to be able to do a lot of things MTG can't, and is providing a completely different experience via the PVE dungeon/raid systems. I'm psyched, and if you are not... why are you here?

I'm super psyched for the game. I think the PVE stuff will be really neat. I believe in Cory Jones from watching the interviews. I'm not bothered by the game being a MTG clone, only wanted to point out that copying all the keywords of magic is in no way a requirement of a tcg.

knightofeffect
06-10-2013, 08:38 PM
Hex is more of an MTG reboot than a clone.

Its like they re-imagined MTG for an online audience and streamlined some of the more aggravating aspects (mana thresholds and champion charges to mitigate mana screw for instance).

At first I was trying to tell myself that Hex wasn't a direct clone, not sure why I wanted to believe that as I loved MTG and haven't seen anything really come close, but there I was trying to convince myself it wasn't that much of a clone....

Then I saw a blood(swamp) troop(creature) have the text, "This troop cannot be blocked expect by blood and/or artifact troops". That was the last time I tried to convince myself that it was nearly a carbon-reboot of MTG but with more potential and a lack of 20 years worth of mechanic complexity.

I almost wish they could legally drop the different keyword window dressing and just call the mechanics the same as MTG. Don't get me wrong, I'm a GK and hugely excited about Hex and inspired by some of the out-of-the-box thinking they have shown (love sockets in limited formats). I'm also encouraged that they are shameless enough to borrow as heavily from the tried and true as they have.

Hopefully they can hit the sweet spot between innovation and stability so we can all enjoy the game for years to come =).

tautologico
06-10-2013, 09:35 PM
I'm not very worried about calling it a "clone" or not. But it is VERY similar to Magic.

I may be wrong but I feel that people who say "it's not THAT similar" or "any 2 games in the same genre will be similar" probably don't know many TCGs. I have played many TCGs, paper and digital, and none of them come as close to Magic as HEX. Yes, there are some digital tricks (most of them could be made to work in Magic, although with clumsier bookeeping required) and a slightly different resource system, but otherwise is almost like a new skin over the same game.

So the thing is, if HEX cannot be called a Magic clone, no other TCG can. HEX may not be a "clone" but it's the closest to one we have in the market.

(In fact, as is the case with many others who opined in this thread, it is exactly the similarity to Magic that attracted me to HEX. If there existed a really good version of MTGO I probably would be much less interested in HEX.)

mydragoon
06-11-2013, 12:17 AM
well, my first impression of Hex is definitely this -- near exact copy of MTG.
* type of mana (heck, they used the term mana is the sample play video too), which is 5. what's this magical number?
* life @ 20.. why 20? why not 15? or 30?
and many more...

i've played Rage (by White Wolf) but it never felt the same like MTG. same with Pokemon... It didn't feel like MTG. Same with UNO. dun feel like MTG (oh wait, that's a different type of game). But Hex... From how it looks, it does feel like MTG. which is why i said in another post... i hope WoC dun come out with a lawsuit (for whatever reasons -- i know, some said mechanics cannot be copyrighted).

but ya, i am still very much excited about Hex. but as i have said earlier as well, I just wished that if Hex is really designed from ground up with virtual gaming in mind, then I'm sure many things could have been different...
* do we still need to tap (put the card sideways)
* animated spell effects and battles?

but i do see some bits are better off in the virtual world like sockets, experience tracking, and that near infinite effect from Pack Raptor card... that would not have been that feasible in real cards.

anyway, Hex is software. it can get better... and it will... right? :D

note: had accidentally posted this at the keyword thread instead... though some bits are relevant there too.

Enyeez
06-11-2013, 12:45 AM
Threads like this are so funny.

it doesn't have to be one or the other game, you CAN play both.

if you deny that it is very closely based on magic the gathering, you dont know what you are talking about.

most of the basic abilities are the same with a new name.
cardtypes mirror that of magics. constant/enchantment, artifacts, troop/creature, basic action/sorcery, quickaction/instant.
you attack and block in the same fashion as you would in magic.
7 card starting hand, 20 life.

drafting from what I can make of it, is exactly the same as magic.


but you probably imagined me saying these things as a bad thing; on the contrary, I love it, makes it much easier to get into for me. It makes me able to teach my friends, with 10$ magic accounts playing commoncard decks on magic online, the basics of this game.

mydragoon
06-11-2013, 12:54 AM
Threads like this are so funny.

it doesn't have to be one or the other game, you CAN play both.

if you deny that it is very closely based on magic the gathering, you dont know what you are talking about.

most of the basic abilities are the same with a new name.
cardtypes mirror that of magics. constant/enchantment, artifacts, troop/creature, basic action/sorcery, quickaction/instant.
you attack and block in the same fashion as you would in magic.
7 card starting hand, 20 life.

drafting from what I can make of it, is exactly the same as magic.


but you probably imagined me saying these things as a bad thing; on the contrary, I love it, makes it much easier to get into for me. It makes me able to teach my friends, with 10$ magic accounts playing commoncard decks on magic online, the basics of this game.
agreed. it makes getting into Hex easier for MTG players... and the fact that Hex has got a lot more sure makes it really something to look forward to.

but again... i just hope Hex dun get into any legal issues.

jaxsonbateman
06-11-2013, 01:03 AM
I'm sure I mentioned this early on in the thread, but I'll say it again. This game is incredibly similar to Magic - so much so that I'm using a program designed to allow Magic decktesting to mess around with Hex deck ideas. The fact that it's so similar, yet has a lot of new innovations, cool mechanics and ideas (love me some hardcore PvE unlike that crappy DotP campaign experience) makes it almost like a "super Magic" for me. I still enjoy Magic now, I just feel like I'm definitely going to enjoy Hex a looot more.

Gridian
06-11-2013, 01:48 AM
"Clone" is the wrong word. I would more opt to calling Magic the "Spiritual Parent" of HEX. In Spirit, Magic and HEX are of the same breed - but HEX does have severyl distict differences from Magic, which were mentioned and discussed in this thread.

Just my 5 cents. :)
Also, I am a Dragon Lord. A Dragon Lord is always right. He bends any truth to be precicely what he means.

Khazrakh
06-11-2013, 02:06 AM
Actually Hex beeing somewhat of a MTG clone is what got me so excited about it in the first place. Every single online TCG I played I came to point where I just was like "why can't they just do it like Magic did it?". Just doing things different doesn't mean you're doing them better.
Hex seems to be what MTGO should have been or could have become and I'm really locking forward to that!

Boozecluez
06-11-2013, 03:39 AM
Plenty of room for this game and MTG in the same market ... Just like there is Dota 2,LOL and Hon in the moba niche

Aerensiniac
06-11-2013, 04:20 AM
1. Hex has similarities with MTG to the point of some cards being almost identical to MTG cards.
2. That being said, the copying of mechanics is not the copying of a game.
If copying mechanics would be theft, then you would have no games today, and i mean NO GAMES OF ANY KIND.
Command and conquer which is regarded as one of the founding fathers of RTS wouldnt even exist cause technically its a flat out ripoff of Dune 2.
Following the "rip-off logic" there should be no RTS games of any kind in existence, cause they are all merely spiffed and tuned up versions of Dune 2.

I remember this pukefest from terraria's release.
Everyone and their mother were crying how its a 2D rip-off of minecraft, while everybody forgot how minecraft is a complete and almost identical rip-off of infiminer.

People who call rip-off should be ignored for they havent got the slightest clue what they are talking about, and thats it.

Omegahugger
06-11-2013, 06:27 AM
What's wrong with it being a clone?

People keep avoiding that word like it's toxic or something.

What seals the deal for me is how the gems have a perfect match with Magic's colours, even down to the colour scheme. That is not something one does accidentally, not in my mind at least.

Of course, there's no doubt that Hex will be a worthy opponent to Magic. While I doubt that Magic will fall within the next decade, Hex has the potential to surpass the giant of ages.

Diesbudt
06-11-2013, 06:29 AM
1. Hex has similarities with MTG to the point of some cards being almost identical to MTG cards.
2. That being said, the copying of mechanics is not the copying of a game.
If copying mechanics would be theft, then you would have no games today, and i mean NO GAMES OF ANY KIND.
Command and conquer which is regarded as one of the founding fathers of RTS wouldnt even exist cause technically its a flat out ripoff of Dune 2.
Following the "rip-off logic" there should be no RTS games of any kind in existence, cause they are all merely spiffed and tuned up versions of Dune 2.

I remember this pukefest from terraria's release.
Everyone and their mother were crying how its a 2D rip-off of minecraft, while everybody forgot how minecraft is a complete and almost identical rip-off of infiminer.

People who call rip-off should be ignored for they havent got the slightest clue what they are talking about, and thats it.

Also, god forbid whatever game didn't invent the rolling of the dice as a chance mechanic.

tautologico
06-11-2013, 08:46 AM
Plenty of room for this game and MTG in the same market ... Just like there is Dota 2,LOL and Hon in the moba niche

Indeed, and I intend to play both, at least for a while. Later I may keep just one game, we'll see.

jai151
06-11-2013, 08:52 AM
What's wrong with it being a clone?

People keep avoiding that word like it's toxic or something.

Clone has a negative connotation to it. It implies that there is no innovation, that's it's simply Magic rebranded.

Tyrfang
06-11-2013, 08:54 AM
You want to see a clone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL8Ex5jZwM4&feature=player_embedded

Fireblast
06-11-2013, 09:25 AM
You want to see a clone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL8Ex5jZwM4&feature=player_embedded

It's not a clone, it has new art :/

~

Tyrfang
06-11-2013, 09:26 AM
...I think you and I have different definitions of "new" art.

Fireblast
06-11-2013, 09:27 AM
...I think you and I have different definitions of "new" art.

Compared to LoL's :)

~

Tyrfang
06-11-2013, 09:30 AM
It's not a clone, it has new art :/

~

They actually renamed all the items, but the effects remain the same. Apparently, you can play the game if you have the LoL store item locations memorized, because they are in the same spots.