PDA

View Full Version : Keep Defense - Set an entry fee and a prizes



Rapkannibale
06-04-2013, 03:23 AM
Hi all,

In case you missed the stream, they explained a bit more about how your Keep will work.

Basically you account name will be your Keep name. All the champions you create will get a last name based on your keep name. So if my keep name in Doombringer, the every Champion I create will be called NAME of Doombringer. Pretty cool!

Even cooler though is that you will be able to set a fee for people that want to try to beat your Keep's defenses and then also set a prize for those that manage to do it. They didn't go into detail as to what you can charge for an entry and what the prizes can be but I would imagine you those would include, Gold, Platinum, maybe even boosters and cards.

They also said that the trial fee of people that fail would then be added to the Jackpot. I think people will really get into this and there will be infamous keeps that are extremely hard to beat with super high jackpots. I think this is one of my favorite features of the game!

jaxsonbateman
06-04-2013, 03:30 AM
I'm a bit wary about it though - particularly, how long it would remain 'active', and if you'd be able to disable it or make changes whenever you want, or what the deal is there.

Essentially, if your prize and fee have enough disparity that people will actually want to attack you, they will be able to do it once - see your first encounter deck - then bring a deck that has the edge against that. Then see your next encounter deck, bring a deck that has the edge against that, and so on.

Of course, I'm wary, but I think they'll probably be aware of that and will take it into account. Like, you have to use the one deck for each stage of the keep assault - so you'd have to craft a deck that's actually good against the 'meta' of the keep to pry away the prizes.

I will say though - be aware, other keeps. Jaximus of Yggdrasil is coming for you!

Indormi
06-04-2013, 03:59 AM
I maybe understand it wrong, but if you get challenged and win, the fee goes to the jackpot, and if you lose you lose your prize. So is a loss/loss situation for the challenged keep. (Entry fee goes to the jackpot, not you).

@jaxsonbateman you can set a rotation of decks I presume, and maybe you can make a "each time you try you pay more" kind of thing to counter that strat, of just winning by hardcountering every deck the defender has set.

jaxsonbateman
06-04-2013, 04:05 AM
Hmmm, I wonder how the keep defender would ever win then... perhaps we'll set a time limit for how long people have to engage, and if the keep hasn't been defeated by then, the keep owner gets the pot?

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 04:14 AM
I assume that a percentage of the entry fee goes to the keep and a percentage to the jackpot like as thats the way jackpots usually work - it was an answer to a question on the live stream and i think they just didn't phrase it right on the fly..

jaxsonbateman
06-04-2013, 04:29 AM
Oh, that'd be sweet then. :-)

Indormi
06-04-2013, 04:32 AM
I assume that a percentage of the entry fee goes to the keep and a percentage to the jackpot like as thats the way jackpots usually work - it was an answer to a question on the live stream and i think they just didn't phrase it right on the fly..

I hope is this way, it makes much more sense. Hope they just not explained really well because it was an on the fly question

Rapkannibale
06-04-2013, 04:37 AM
Yeah they didn't go into that much detail but I assume there is a way for the defender to make some profit. Maybe retire the jackpot once its big enough. So its like a risk/reward thing. Let a few more people have a go at it to increase the jackpot, or take it now so that noone can win it?

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 04:49 AM
Yeah they didn't go into that much detail but I assume there is a way for the defender to make some profit. Maybe retire the jackpot once its big enough. So its like a risk/reward thing. Let a few more people have a go at it to increase the jackpot, or take it now so that noone can win it?

That'd be a good idea actually!

Fireblast
06-04-2013, 05:43 AM
So basically Keep Defense is Pay2Win?

~

Massabik
06-04-2013, 06:26 AM
I'm curious as to whether or not you can use PvE cards in your defense decks.

jaxsonbateman
06-04-2013, 06:33 AM
You can can't you? Isn't the entire keep defense thing PvE based?

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 07:12 AM
The main problem i see with Keep defence is that if you get to choose who to attack and all the Keeps have unique names, it will be really easy for guilds or even websites to publish decklists and specific counter decks for those keeps - possibly quicker than the owner can change his defences if he doesnt have access to good cards in other deck types..

I think it would be better if players were 'forced' to make a general Keep asault deck rather than being able to build a specific deck to beat a keep like they can against a dungeon - when the keep is defeated, its bad for another real player, not just a dungeon boss..

This could be done by either not using unique identifiers when offering keeps for attack, just generic stats live win/loss, loot, entry fee/risk, favoured color, total value of cards used

or by making keep attacks random within certain groups - ie chose high risk/high reward group and fight one of the keeps in that group.

This still doesnt allow you to attack your friends Keep, but its better than your keep becoming loot dungeon #41 because someone wrote a good guide and decklist on how to beat it...

dogmod
06-04-2013, 07:14 AM
I am pretty sure keep defense is going to be one of my favorite things.. :)

Indormi
06-04-2013, 07:17 AM
If you dont want to be attacked, just remove the price.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:23 AM
You won't make any money getting the jackpot of a keep that is easy to beat.
The jackpot won't grow if no one loses.
Only the challenging keeps will have jackpots worth attempting.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 07:25 AM
If you dont want to be attacked, just remove the price.

My comment was about making it an engaging experience for both sides - not about being attacked.

If i cant build a crazy elf deck for keep because everyone knows how to beat it with control or cant make a burn defence because its easy to beat with life gain, then im limited to pretty much building tier 1 net decks for my keep - if thats the case i wont enjoy it at all

If on the other hand, the attackers cant taylor their decks to my specific keep, then it is both more fun and more effective for me to build crazy and original keep defence decks because they will have designed theirs to be best at beating the most common keep defence decks and likely struggle more with an original design.

originality FTW

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:26 AM
Beastmaster: They could make it so that the keeps are only ranked by jackpot size, unless you are in the same guild/on each other's friend's list.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 07:28 AM
My comment was about making it an engaging experience for both sides - not about being attacked.

If i cant build a crazy elf deck for keep because everyone knows how to beat it with control or cant make a burn defence because its easy to beat with life gain, then im limited to pretty much building tier 1 net decks for my keep - if thats the case i wont enjoy it at all

If on the other hand, the attackers cant taylor their decks to my specific keep, then it is both more fun and more effective for me to build crazy and original keep defence decks because they will have designed theirs to be best at beating the most common keep defence decks and likely struggle more with an original design.

originality FTW

Wouldn't it be less fun for the attacker if they couldn't slowly figure out your keep and in the end beat it? At a certain point you won't be the one even playing that portion of the game (as the defense is handled by AI).. So you make a great original deck.. people throw themselves against its wall until someone figures it out.. and perhaps they tell their friends. Then you revamp build a new deck and rinse repeat.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 07:29 AM
Tyrfang - yeah that would be a good way to do it.

Or unless you challenge friends/guild-mates to attack your keep would also work.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:33 AM
Tyrfang - yeah that would be a good way to do it.

Or unless you challenge friends/guild-mates to attack your keep would also work.

That'd be kind of anti...lore? "Why are we attacking our ally's castle?"

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 07:36 AM
Wouldn't it be less fun for the attacker if they couldn't slowly figure out your keep and in the end beat it? At a certain point you won't be the one even playing that portion of the game (as the defense is handled by AI).. So you make a great original deck.. people throw themselves against its wall until someone figures it out.. and perhaps they tell their friends. Then you revamp build a new deck and rinse repeat.

Thats a good point - certainly people are going to become invested in attacking a particular keep even to the point of feeling that it 'owes' them money due to the money they have put into the entry fee.

I think that you are right and that a person should be allowed to keep attacking a keep once they have attacked it once until they defeat it. but then I think that it should be no longer eligible - ie no loot farming

Im also not sold on being able to 'tell friends' about a specific uniquely identified keep - popular keep defence decks and keep attack decks will however become widely known before long and a metagame will evolve as it does for PvP however so there is plenty of stuff to strategise over without that.

facade
06-04-2013, 07:36 AM
I was under the impression that the prizes for beating someone's keep were provided by Cryptozoic. So Keeps that prevail over several players would basically provide higher prize tiers than Keeps which can be steamrolled by players.

In addition, this set-up would provide a disincentive for meta-gaming Keeps, since if you provide the tools for the community-at-large to beat a high difficulty Keep, more players would succeed against the keep, then the prize level would decrease and not be as attractive to players.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 07:38 AM
That'd be kind of anti...lore? "Why are we attacking our ally's castle?"

Yes, but you could look at it as a kind of 'White Hat Hacking' exercise - maybe loot/prize free to help perfect your dungeon.

Then again maybe you dont enjoy fighting with your friends as much as i do... ;)

d00dz
06-04-2013, 08:16 AM
They mentioned that players can upgrade their keeps. I guess the most difficult keeps to assault would be the ones decked out in upgrades and would probably seem like fighting a raid boss.

Thinking out loud, some possibilities could include things like:
1. Archers that reduce your opponent's life by 1 each turn
2. Banners to permabuff all troops
3. Reduced casting cost
4. Storage facility with free resources/thresholds
5. Start with some constants or defending troops in play
6. Healer heals defending champion every turn
7. Resident wizard that gives a random buff or casts an offensive spell every turn
8. Portcullis which an attacker has to destroy before they can damage defending troops/champion
9. Moat which limits number of attackers per turn
10. Faction support/reinforcements if you have high enough reputation

There are any number of modifications they could make such that a keep could pose a substantial challenge with the upgrades. I doubt an AI will ever be as good as a pro player, hence they need these crutches to combat decks tailor-fitted to try to beat the defending deck. It should also be quite interesting and fun :)

Tinuvas
06-04-2013, 08:57 AM
They mentioned that players can upgrade their keeps. I guess the most difficult keeps to assault would be the ones decked out in upgrades and would probably seem like fighting a raid boss.

Thinking out loud, some possibilities could include things like:
1. Archers that reduce your opponent's life by 1 each turn
2. Banners to permabuff all troops
3. Reduced casting cost
4. Storage facility with free resources/thresholds
5. Start with some constants or defending troops in play
6. Healer heals defending champion every turn
7. Resident wizard that gives a random buff or casts an offensive spell every turn
8. Portcullis which an attacker has to destroy before they can damage defending troops/champion
9. Moat which limits number of attackers per turn
10. Faction support/reinforcements if you have high enough reputation

There are any number of modifications they could make such that a keep could pose a substantial challenge with the upgrades. I doubt an AI will ever be as good as a pro player, hence they need these crutches to combat decks tailor-fitted to try to beat the defending deck. It should also be quite interesting and fun :)

+1 for ALL OF IT! Oh my heck that would be awesome! I would so run a killer deck up against that kind of stuff.

Madican
06-04-2013, 09:06 AM
That'd be kind of anti...lore? "Why are we attacking our ally's castle?"

"Don't mind us, just making sure you're still in shape!"

d00dz
06-04-2013, 09:11 AM
+1 for ALL OF IT! Oh my heck that would be awesome! I would so run a killer deck up against that kind of stuff.

I'm glad you're liking my ideas :). That's how I imagined keep defense to be like as soon as I heard about it haha. I am sure CZE will do a lot better than my limited imagination.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 10:03 AM
They mentioned that players can upgrade their keeps. I guess the most difficult keeps to assault would be the ones decked out in upgrades and would probably seem like fighting a raid boss.

Thinking out loud, some possibilities could include things like:
1. Archers that reduce your opponent's life by 1 each turn
2. Banners to permabuff all troops
3. Reduced casting cost
4. Storage facility with free resources/thresholds
5. Start with some constants or defending troops in play
6. Healer heals defending champion every turn
7. Resident wizard that gives a random buff or casts an offensive spell every turn
8. Portcullis which an attacker has to destroy before they can damage defending troops/champion
9. Moat which limits number of attackers per turn
10. Faction support/reinforcements if you have high enough reputation

There are any number of modifications they could make such that a keep could pose a substantial challenge with the upgrades. I doubt an AI will ever be as good as a pro player, hence they need these crutches to combat decks tailor-fitted to try to beat the defending deck. It should also be quite interesting and fun :)

Great ideas... I also like the idea of having multiple stages manned by your mercenaries adn multiple different decks.. Give it a progression and dungeon feel.

nylian
06-04-2013, 10:11 AM
What if you aren't there when you get attacked?
Does the AI run your deck?

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 10:12 AM
I'm pretty sure the AI runs your deck even if you are there.

jaxsonbateman
06-04-2013, 10:19 AM
If you successfully breach a keep, you should be allowed to steal all the ale and wenches.

FireSummoner
06-04-2013, 10:25 AM
One important and fun feature is running against your own keep to test it. I am a bit worried about the AI. I am very curious on how robust it will be considering all of the decks it will have to learn to play.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 06:23 PM
Well Cory just said that they will encourage people to work together on the forums to defeat particular keeps - to me this means that keep building will be less accessible as you will need a large number of cards to be able to change your keep every time it is defeated. But maybe Keeps will be better if they are fewer in number but more challenging. Either way, im sure they will play test to ensure Keeps are fun both to attack and defend

Lochar
06-04-2013, 06:27 PM
Well Cory just said that they will encourage people to work together on the forums to defeat particular keeps - to me this means that keep building will be less accessible as you will need a large number of cards to be able to change your keep every time it is defeated. But maybe Keeps will be better if they are fewer in number but more challenging. Either way, im sure they will play test to ensure Keeps are fun both to attack and defend

I want to be able to put a rare/legendary equipment as the reward for being my keep with the price to attack as any uncommon or better equipment. I get every other equipment put into the pot and the rest starts stacking with my seed equipment.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 06:30 PM
Well you will be able to have 3 decks that they run against... If you vary it enough you can just change one of those decks and completely change the way that other decks work against them.

Lochar
06-04-2013, 06:33 PM
Well you will be able to have 3 decks that they run against... If you vary it enough you can just change one of those decks and completely change the way that other decks work against them.

First up, a lifegain deck! Next, a Shin'Hare deck. Finally, a Blood deck with Spectral Lotuses in it!


Actually, that brings up a good point. Will AI use your spectral lotus and then have to fight from there on with a Black Tiger?

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 06:36 PM
I want to be able to put a rare/legendary equipment as the reward for being my keep with the price to attack as any uncommon or better equipment. I get every other equipment put into the pot and the rest starts stacking with my seed equipment.

+1 I think that this would be awesome especially if I can put some excess pvp cards into the pot and gain pve cards as a reward to allow me to dabble in wild west (and improve my keep) without having to grind too much PvE myself..

dogmod
06-04-2013, 06:36 PM
First up, a lifegain deck! Next, a Shin'Hare deck. Finally, a Blood deck with Spectral Lotuses in it!


Actually, that brings up a good point. Will AI use your spectral lotus and then have to fight from there on with a Black Tiger?

I also wondered about this... Will I be able to restock my spectral lotuses in my last deck supposing the AI uses them.

Will I be able to put spectral lotuses in every deck?

Will my keep be locked out if one person is attacking it? Will people need to queue up to attack my keep?

Some mechanics need working out

dwebber88
06-04-2013, 06:46 PM
I also wondered about this... Will I be able to restock my spectral lotuses in my last deck supposing the AI uses them.

Will I be able to put spectral lotuses in every deck?

Will my keep be locked out if one person is attacking it? Will people need to queue up to attack my keep?

Some mechanics need working out

Good point there

Vibraxus
06-04-2013, 07:04 PM
In a MUDD each guild gets to make guild only equipment (for a steep price). Guild members can buy and use it, it is generally very strong eq. A guild can raid and if they break in can buy like 3-5 guild only eq per person. This guild eq is VERY pricy on the AH, and usually guild members buying it to keep guild only stuff away from the unwashed masses. Could that be the deal here? Keep is easy to crack, loot floods market so people leave guild alone for a while...guild builds crazy keep....gets more popular to hit...round and round.......

Turtlewing
06-04-2013, 07:20 PM
I maybe understand it wrong, but if you get challenged and win, the fee goes to the jackpot, and if you lose you lose your prize. So is a loss/loss situation for the challenged keep. (Entry fee goes to the jackpot, not you).

@jaxsonbateman you can set a rotation of decks I presume, and maybe you can make a "each time you try you pay more" kind of thing to counter that strat, of just winning by hardcountering every deck the defender has set.

It could be that you can withdraw from he jackpot. So whole you're out the keep gets richer and richer then you either let it keep accumulating or pull some of the "winnings".

Lochar
06-04-2013, 07:22 PM
And then it becomes a balancing act. As it goes up do you stay greedy and let people continue to hit against it, or do you pull your winnings before someone with a perfectly tuned to your keep deck comes along and smashes you down.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:31 PM
I think it's split between going into your treasury and going into the jackpot.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 07:33 PM
I think it's split between going into your treasury and going into the jackpot.

This

lamaros
06-04-2013, 07:51 PM
Even with the best of intentions and decent AI I can't see how you'd make the computer play a user created deck anywhere near well enough to ever see a jackpot worthy of the effort.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 08:04 PM
lamaros: Keep defense is 3 of your own decks vs one of theirs. They have to beat all 3 for the prize. :)

Skirovik
06-04-2013, 08:14 PM
I really like the sound of this Keep Defense idea.

Being a Grand King backer means I'll have heaps of things to put up as rewards, not just gold. Even if it is gold, I can farm it quicker with the Dungeon Crawler bonus that Grand King gets. Will be pretty awesome I think.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 08:14 PM
lamaros: Keep defense is 3 of your own decks vs one of theirs. They have to beat all 3 for the prize. :)

Exactly. If you mix your three decks up enough, they're really going to struggle to put together a deck solid enough against 3 distinct strategies!


I really like the sound of this Keep Defense idea.

Being a Grand King backer means I'll have heaps of things to put up as rewards, not just gold. Even if it is gold, I can farm it quicker with the Dungeon Crawler bonus that Grand King gets. Will be pretty awesome I think.

I'll be sure to keep an eye out for you and your rewards then! :D I'm actually super excited about this feature, the amount of re-playability it's going to offer is through the roof. I really think this is going to be the true end-game of PvE content!