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dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:13 PM
Please please please.... Make Booster bought through the VIP program non-tradeable and unable to be sold on the AH.

I imagine you have already though of this but as it has not been addressed in any public way I would like to make my case for packs bought through the VIP program to be account bound (able to be opened or used in draft)

The goal of the program through my eyes is to make the game more accessible to people with limited incomes as well as offer a discount to dedicated fans on a few packs. I think that is a great goal but if you make the packs tradeable it opens up the system to people who are only looking to game the system. Which you have stated you are against and I have faith you are.

1. People will buy into the VIP program simply to get packs which they will sell through the AH or a secondary market to make a profit over what they bought them for. If it is possible people will do it. Not only does this take money away from Cryptozoic, in the long term it devalues all of our investments and any future investment anyone makes into this game. It should be profitable for an individual to use the VIP program (Yeah great price!)... but it should not be a system that attracts profiteers.

I propose the VIP packs be designated as such and be account bound.

The major detraction could be that doing it this way makes it so that people who would want to use the program to give packs to friends would be unable to. I agree that is a downside but the potential negatives vastly outweigh this. If you want to give you friends cards, open the packs and give them. If you want to get them into drafting you may have to suck it up and get some AH packs or give them some of your non VIP packs.

I would be very sad to see people using the VIP program to profit at Cryptozoics and mine and your expense.

Daer
06-04-2013, 12:14 PM
+1

larryhl
06-04-2013, 12:15 PM
AH's that are free market will always balance themselves. If in fact something like this does happen, that will force AH booster packs to the $1 price point and thus make selling VIP packs a wash.

Almazy
06-04-2013, 12:18 PM
Wait, are the vip packs just booster packs where you get 4 a month? I may have forgot, but if they are just booster packs, then won't there already be an inflation from kickstarter people with thousands of booster packs (I Know there has to be at least ONE guy who made multiple accounts for tons of pledges planning to sell the packs)

ShaolinRaven
06-04-2013, 12:18 PM
You are worried about one pack a week for someone being an issue when more packs will probably be coming out of tourney winners? In that case we need to make no boosters trade-able because any tournament won booster, any KS free booster, any promotional boosters could also be making it onto the AH or into a secondary market.

Stymying one avenue will be unhelpful unless every avenue is also stymied.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 12:18 PM
+1 - I already sent a message to them about concern with VIP abuse.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:18 PM
AH's that are free market will always balance themselves. If in fact something like this does happen, that will force AH booster packs to the $1 price point and thus make selling VIP packs a wash.

Except the VIP program is not an unlimited supply. And it still devalues our investment at the price of profiteers. If this cannot be done the cost of packs may be slightly higher but that means the packs you win in tournaments and the cards that you get out of packs will be correspondingly higher while getting rid of profiteers.

Tathel
06-04-2013, 12:19 PM
There is already a massive discussion / thread on this from a few weeks back.

Chance
06-04-2013, 12:19 PM
You can't stack them so it would be one Per Account which is going to be a major stopping point for most. Those can provide multiple accounts and credit cards getting 1 pack per week is like nothing, hardly worth the trouble. If this continued it would devalue the boosters and they would make next to nothing on their return. It also has the added benefit of artificially raising the amount of "active" accounts. I don't see it necessary to fix but it wouldn't be hard making them bind on account either so either way im cool.

Almazy
06-04-2013, 12:20 PM
I believe this will just punish players who found out about the game after the kickstarter already ended

tacospag
06-04-2013, 12:20 PM
I think in the end it will balance out price wise. Your packs spent will cost less as will your prize packs

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:21 PM
You are worried about one pack a week for someone being an issue when more packs will probably be coming out of tourney winners? In that case we need to make no boosters trade-able because any tournament won booster, any KS free booster, any promotional boosters could also be making it onto the AH or into a secondary market.

Stymying one avenue will be unhelpful unless every avenue is also stymied.

The horse is out of the cart for KS, and I think they are hoping we all give some packs away to friends which is something I know I will be doing but as this is a one time offer it won't lead to long term profiteering.

Boosters from tournaments have a very specific half life.. Till the next tournament. 24 go in and only 12 come out. This is not a successful avenue for long term profiteering on a large scale (small scale Pros may very well be able to make money through secondary markets but this is not something I personally am against)

As for promotional boosters I don't really know what you are referencing but would be happy to discuss it if you made it more clear :).

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:22 PM
I believe this will just punish players who found out about the game after the kickstarter already ended

Punish them how? They are still able to buy packs through the VIP program at a discount!

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:22 PM
I think in the end it will balance out price wise. Your packs spent will cost less as will your prize packs

And the only people profiting from this decline in price are people looking to use the program to garner profit to themselves.

Hieronymous
06-04-2013, 12:22 PM
This honestly doesn't matter. The number of packs coming into the game from the VIP program are going to be minimal. Most people who want cards will want them NOW and just buy them. A single half-price booster pack a month isn't enough to be worth caring about.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:23 PM
There is already a massive discussion / thread on this from a few weeks back.

Sorry didn't see it even though I have been here. Was there any official response?

houjix
06-04-2013, 12:23 PM
A pack a week X the # of VIPs, will not be enough to sate the entire gaming community. Crypto will still sell plenty of packs at $2. Besides, this is almost the same argument of buying online vs Brick and Mortar stores for physical games, except Crypto is both the online and B&M store in this case.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:24 PM
This honestly doesn't matter. The number of packs coming into the game from the VIP program are going to be minimal. Most people who want cards will want them NOW and just buy them.

This may be true but if you look at threads estimating the cost of boosters you will see many people assuming the AH price will be close to 1 dollar because of this program. And if as you say the relative # is low that only increases the profitability for people gaming the system -> more profiteering.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:24 PM
Basically if CZE wants to profit more off the VIP program than the individual boosters, they will allow them to be traded as there will be plenty of sales out there for packs next to $1 for the tiny profit that you can gain per pack aggregated over 1000s of VIP accounts per firm. So there will be a small profit to be made for them but less for CZE based on $2 boosters.

Its a wash either way. I think making them non-tradable would be a good idea but harms the social aspect of the game somewhat

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:25 PM
A pack a week X the # of VIPs, will not be enough to sate the entire gaming community. Crypto will still sell plenty of packs at $2. Besides, this is almost the same argument of buying online vs Brick and Mortar stores for physical games, except Crypto is both the online and B&M store in this case.

This is an argument of buying from the primary source vs buying from scalpers who add nothing to a system except extracting profit. B&M stores generally add more to the system than that. If they don't that is another discussion to be had.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:25 PM
A pack a week X the # of VIPs, will not be enough to sate the entire gaming community. Crypto will still sell plenty of packs at $2. Besides, this is almost the same argument of buying online vs Brick and Mortar stores for physical games, except Crypto is both the online and B&M store in this case.

You underestimate the Chinese.

Almazy
06-04-2013, 12:27 PM
Punish them how? They are still able to buy packs through the VIP program at a discount!Sorry I meant the VIP gives you like 1 pack a week right? As opposed to someone with kickstarter who has 150 packs AND free vip. If something like making vip packs tradeable were abuseable, then how is someone making constant pledges on kickstarter not.

houjix
06-04-2013, 12:27 PM
This is an argument of buying from the primary source vs buying from scalpers who add nothing to a system except extracting profit. B&M stores generally add more to the system than that. If they don't that is another discussion to be had.


So were looking at what, spending $4 a month to make maybe $1-2 profit, and you see this as an issue?

larryhl
06-04-2013, 12:29 PM
So were looking at what, spending $4 a month to make maybe $1-2 profit, and you see this as an issue?

Apparently he does...

Even if someone could consistently max out the VIP packs by placing first in the 8-4 drafts, that's only 32 packs every 3 months for $12. Then selling all of these on the AH for $1.50 nets them $36 for 3 months...man, they're going to be rich.

Wombat
06-04-2013, 12:29 PM
every pack you put into the AH is unable to be a primal pack, which significantly lowers its value.

Also there is no real money AH but a Gold/Platinum one, so you can not sell your pack for cash just for gold or platinum. There has been no statement that you will be able to cash out your gold/platinum as real money when the game is released, they plan on implementing something like a real money AH or a way to cash out platinum though.

thats as far as i know

Almazy
06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
every pack you put into the AH is unable to be a primal pack, which significantly lowers its value.

Also there is no real money AH but a Gold/Platinum one, so you can not sell your pack for cash just for gold or platinum. There has been no statement that you will be able to cash out your gold/platinum as real money when the game is released, they plan on implementing something like a real money AH or a way to cash out platinum though.

thats as far as i knowWow, thanks for telling me that's actually important, I actually missed that.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Yea, I'm not buying 1 pack a week having much effect. Especially since you have to assume that only a certain percentage of player would be trying to sell packs, especially in sets 2 and on. The huge glut of kickstarter pack rewards is already going to drive the price incredibly low.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:37 PM
every pack you put into the AH is unable to be a primal pack, which significantly lowers its value.

Also there is no real money AH but a Gold/Platinum one, so you can not sell your pack for cash just for gold or platinum. There has been no statement that you will be able to cash out your gold/platinum as real money when the game is released, they plan on implementing something like a real money AH or a way to cash out platinum though.

thats as far as i know

I understand that paying $2 for a booster pack from CZE will perhaps yield a Primal, but that does not mean people will not pay next to one dollar for a booster.

There will be so many third party sites that will be dedicated to buying and selling boosters it will blow your mind. If a firm is able to set up an account of maybe 10,000 accounts on the VIP program and sell those boosters at $1.25 per then they are at the very least making $10,000 per month for very little effort.

Not to mention that those VIP accounts each have a chance to acquire Primals which will sell for more now/later.

There will be gold/plat sites as well but those will be negligible compared to the booster sales sites.

EDIT: for teh maths

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:37 PM
They have made many illusions to the fact that they cannot condone but will not regulate secondary markets. Plat and boosters will be for sale for real money guaranteed.

I don't see much of an issue with 1 singular person profiting off the game. But it won't be one singular person, and the fact is there is no reason that you should be able to profit of it for doing nothing more than giving them 4 dollars and then reselling it in their own game. So maybe I actually do have a problem with it.

And the point is why let any amount of profiteering into the system if you don't have to?

As to the people being punished for not being in the KS... You are right but allowing them to profit off of the VIP program doesn't really make up for that. If there was no detriment to not knowing about the KS there would be no positive aspect to pledging and kicking the project. An unfortunate circumstance for those that don't know but a necessary one to incentivize people to pledge.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 12:39 PM
that's 10,000 separate credit cards they have to get their hands on, with different addresses, and generally acting in a not botty way. They've said they have very good bot detection for things like this.

cuscus
06-04-2013, 12:40 PM
1. People will buy into the VIP program simply to get packs which they will sell through the AH or a secondary market to make a profit over what they bought them for. If it is possible people will do it. Not only does this take money away from Cryptozoic, in the long term ...


Wait, what? People selling packs on the AH that they got from paying Cryptozoic their VIP subscription fee is taking money away from Cryptozoic.

There are so many assumptions here:
What is the price for a pack on the AH? Problem statement assumes there will be a profit in selling packs.
Is the pack selling for gold or platinum? If platinum then didn't Cryptozoic sell the plat?
Is the goal of VIP really accessibility? Or could it be maybe a readily quantifiable steady revenue stream for Cryptozoic?

Also:
If the VIP pack cannot be traded then VIPs will just sell singles. Or do you want the cards from the packs to be bound too?

A thriving market is what is going to keep the community in the game. The VIP program is just an alternate booster source that ultimately feeds cards into that market. Your argument seems to be that there should be no way for people to sell cards for more than they paid for them under any circumstance and that's just... just.. yeah.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:40 PM
that's 10,000 separate credit cards they have to get their hands on, with different addresses, and generally acting in a not botty way. They've said they have very good bot detection for things like this.

I will re-quote myself

"You underestimate the Chinese"

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:41 PM
that's 10,000 separate credit cards they have to get their hands on, with different addresses, and generally acting in a not botty way. They've said they have very good bot detection for things like this.

It is the same negative impact whether it is one person doing it or 10,000 accounts with one person, or 10,000 people with one account. It negatively impacts the economy at no benefit except to those who are using the VIP program as an ATM.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
...it's one pack a week. That's less than $52 a year "profit". Also. set one packs will sell on the ah for less than $1.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
So just boycott every MMO out there...

Stok3d
06-04-2013, 12:43 PM
Brilliant. I drilled the VIP program to death with my concerns and never thought of this as a solution. Again I'll say it... brilliant.

/signed

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 12:44 PM
Locked packs won't hurt the vast majority of players as long as you can still use them to enter into tournaments.

IMO, the concept of getting a VIP subscription doesn't make sense unless you plan on opening them yourself.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:48 PM
One general argument seems to be: People will only be making a small profit so how is that bad? .... Well if I just stole 1 dollar from you a month would you be okay with it?

As to the question about people simply opening the VIP packs and then reselling them, that is a valid point but some element of profiteering will occur and this one concerns me less. Cards from boosters are generally worth less than the actual cost of the booster. If we allow profiteers to drive the cost of boosters down to $1 then the value of the cards in the pack will be much less than $1 dollar. If the actual cost of boosters is actually something like $1.50 on the AH then people using the VIP program as a way to make money will have a hard time doing so as the actual price of the cards revealed will likely be around $1(assumptions yes but the general concept is sound.)

I am not against people making money while playing this game. I am not against Pros winning money or selling cards or selling boosters won in drafts. I am not against you or I or the next guy selling off his cards now or later at a profit. I am against a system that is so easily gamed that it is bound to attract profiteers in large quantities. If you sole goal is to make money off this game but you do it within the bounds of the game and the EULA then more power to you. But I would make it so its not such an easily gamed system.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 12:49 PM
every pack you put into the AH is unable to be a primal pack

Source? There's some confusion about when the decision of 'non-primal vs primal' is revealed, either on-acquisition (from CZE, not the auction house) or on-open, but in either case putting it on the auction house wouldn't affect the ability to be primal. Also if they've categorically stated whether it's on-open or on-acquisition I would appreciate a link to that source too.

Massabik
06-04-2013, 12:51 PM
I don't personally believe it's an issue. Crypto will get money for the VIPs, players will get cheaper cards. Besides, any virtual 'economy' will get broken just as soon as people get involved. Always has, always will.

jai151
06-04-2013, 12:52 PM
Source? There's some confusion about when the decision of 'non-primal vs primal' is revealed, either on-acquisition or on-open, but in either case putting it on the auction house wouldn't affect the ability to be primal. Also if they've categorically stated whether it's on-open or on-acquisition I would appreciate a link to that source too.

It's on acquisition, as primal packs cannot be used in draft. If it were on open, there'd be no way to filter that.

As such, it has to be acquired before it can be put on the auction house, therefore, it cannot be a primal (though primals can be sold on the auction house, they are visably different and marked as such)

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 12:53 PM
Technically, it's possible to open a booster with a booster in the loot card that happens to be a primal pack.

But yeah, it's on acquisition.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 12:54 PM
I figured that the primal pack in draft restriction just meant when you opened it in draft, it could not be primal, but it doesn't affect when you open it in non-tournament scenarios.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:54 PM
I don't personally believe it's an issue. Crypto will get money for the VIPs, players will get cheaper cards. Besides, any virtual 'economy' will get broken just as soon as people get involved. Always has, always will.

So they should make it easy to break?

I can't argue that the game will be cheaper to play if they don't do as I suggest. I only argue that the game will be cheaper to play at the benefit of profiteers. This will harm the product in the long run as it takes money away from cryptozoic, it will discourage general players from getting into the AH and trading aspect of the games (look at D3, they have already talked about ways to avoid it but that may be a separate discussion), and will degrade the community (in my opinion no proof).

Less money to cryptozoic = less money put back into the game

More money to profiteers = no benefit to you or I and large potential negatives to the community and game in general.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:54 PM
Source? There's some confusion about when the decision of 'non-primal vs primal' is revealed, either on-acquisition (from CZE, not the auction house) or on-open, but in either case putting it on the auction house wouldn't affect the ability to be primal. Also if they've categorically stated whether it's on-open or on-acquisition I would appreciate a link to that source too.

The player will know whether or not they have a Primal before they are able to put it on AH. If it is a booster on AH it is a booster. If it is Primal...

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:55 PM
I figured that the primal pack in draft restriction just meant when you opened it in draft, it could not be primal, but it doesn't affect when you open it in non-tournament scenarios.

I can't pull the quote out now but I believe it was stated at one point that it would be on purchase.

houjix
06-04-2013, 12:55 PM
Source? There's some confusion about when the decision of 'non-primal vs primal' is revealed, either on-acquisition (from CZE, not the auction house) or on-open, but in either case putting it on the auction house wouldn't affect the ability to be primal. Also if they've categorically stated whether it's on-open or on-acquisition I would appreciate a link to that source too.

They've said primals will have different "wrappers" when generated, so you know before opening that it is a primal pack.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts/479694?ref=activity

Everything from that update seems to indicate you will know a primal pack on sight.

jai151
06-04-2013, 12:55 PM
Technically, it's possible to open a booster with a booster in the loot card that happens to be a primal pack.

But yeah, it's on acquisition.

Loot card? First time I've heard this.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 12:58 PM
It basically boils down to how close to $1 CZE will allow the market to go for boosters. It could even reach $1 or less based on how many accounts will be abusing VIP to gain Primal packs which they sell back for more than $1 (obviously) thus reaping profit on Primals at the expense of the sub $1 booster.

It all depends on rarity of Primals and the # of accounts abusing the system.

Massabik
06-04-2013, 12:59 PM
So they should make it easy to break?

I can't argue that the game will be cheaper to play if they don't do as I suggest. I only argue that the game will be cheaper to play at the benefit of profiteers. This will harm the product in the long run as it takes money away from cryptozoic, it will discourage general players from getting into the AH and trading aspect of the games (look at D3, they have already talked about ways to avoid it but that may be a separate discussion), and will degrade the community (in my opinion no proof).

Less money to cryptozoic = less money put back into the game

More money to profiteers = no benefit to you or I and large potential negatives to the community and game in general.

I'm guessing they will be able to see if thousands of accounts are operating from the same IP, or that there is no activity on so many accounts except trading. I DO agree that something should be done to prevent the 'profiteers', but I have extremely strong issues against making some things account bound besides starting decks.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 12:59 PM
It basically boils down to how close to $1 CZE will allow the market to go for boosters. It could even reach $1 or less based on how many accounts will be abusing VIP to gain Primal packs which they sell back for more than $1 (obviously) thus reaping profit on Primals at the expense of the sub $1 booster.

It all depends on rarity of Primals and the # of accounts abusing the system.

Make the abuse much harder by not allowing trading of the packs themselves... simple

Scale
06-04-2013, 01:00 PM
I believe it's been outlined that the packs will be determined as primal upon initial acquisition from Cryptozoic and I think it was outlined in one of the updates (though I haven't been able to retrive it in a brief scan through) as such they can't come onto the auction house and then become primal.

tgm0112
06-04-2013, 01:00 PM
Not for account-binding myself. Let people trade what they want and we'll work around the market's price point.

If it goes to $1, so be it. People still pay that dollar in platinum bought from CZE.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:01 PM
I'm guessing they will be able to see if thousands of accounts are operating from the same IP, or that there is no activity on so many accounts except trading. I DO agree that something should be done to prevent the 'profiteers', but I have extremely strong issues against making some things account bound besides starting decks.

I am with you on the account bound issue but when real money is involved with a virtual (Re: Generated from nothing) product, it can and will be abused if there is a large enough market.

Tinuvas
06-04-2013, 01:01 PM
It is the same negative impact whether it is one person doing it or 10,000 accounts with one person, or 10,000 people with one account. It negatively impacts the economy at no benefit except to those who are using the VIP program as an ATM.

Actually, there are a couple of differences here. 10k people would need to be found to game the system, which would require the profits requisite to make it worth the time to do so...for 4 packs a month per person. Hmmm

Also not being recognized is the time value of money. Even with botting (which Cory has established as illegal, immoral (in Hex anyway) and punishable by death (in Hex)) it would take a significant amount of time to manage this whole system to game the system. While it is possible to do so, no one will attempt it to make pennies an hour, which the natural laws of supply and demand will shift the economy towards. And just note, while I respect and admire the Chinese, my money is on American ingenuity. Literally. Like, lots of it just to Cryptozoic.

Also, just the other day I sold a pack of M-13 on MTGO for 1.49. While I might have been able to get a better price, if that's anywhere near the current spread for value, you can expect a booster pack on Hex to be less than a $1 on the AH anyway, negating any and all value from trying to game the VIP club.

Setting artificial limits on buying and selling packs sets a dangerous precedent, and it something that is implied Crypto has leaned heavily away from. If you do it here, you must over there too, to balance the equation. A free flowing economy naturally balances the equation in the vast majority of cases, and I firmly believe the VIP club is one of them.

Finally, Cory has used strong words to describe his attitude towards those who game the system. If somehow, someway, someone found a way to game the system, Cory has already said they have tools to crush the offender, fix the problem, and bring things back to where they should be. If that requires account binding VIP packs, then I would not complain at that point.

All in all, to fix the possibility of a problem is a bit quick I think. If a problem truly develops, it will be solved.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:02 PM
Not for account-binding myself. Let people trade what they want and we'll work around the market's price point.

If it goes to $1, so be it. People still pay that dollar in platinum bought from CZE.

Assuming that they don't sell the platinum on secondary markets.... Which in and of itself will then open up people to being scammed... (this will likely happen anyways)

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:06 PM
Actually, there are a couple of differences here. 10k people would need to be found to game the system, which would require the profits requisite to make it worth the time to do so...for 4 packs a month per person. Hmmm

Also not being recognized is the time value of money. Even with botting (which Cory has established as illegal, immoral (in Hex anyway) and punishable by death (in Hex)) it would take a significant amount of time to manage this whole system to game the system. While it is possible to do so, no one will attempt it to make pennies an hour, which the natural laws of supply and demand will shift the economy towards. And just note, while I respect and admire the Chinese, my money is on American ingenuity. Literally. Like, lots of it just to Cryptozoic.

Also, just the other day I sold a pack of M-13 on MTGO for 1.49. While I might have been able to get a better price, if that's anywhere near the current spread for value, you can expect a booster pack on Hex to be less than a $1 on the AH anyway, negating any and all value from trying to game the VIP club.

Setting artificial limits on buying and selling packs sets a dangerous precedent, and it something that is implied Crypto has leaned heavily away from. If you do it here, you must over there too, to balance the equation. A free flowing economy naturally balances the equation in the vast majority of cases, and I firmly believe the VIP club is one of them.

Finally, Cory has used strong words to describe his attitude towards those who game the system. If somehow, someway, someone found a way to game the system, Cory has already said they have tools to crush the offender, fix the problem, and bring things back to where they should be. If that requires account binding VIP packs, then I would not complain at that point.

All in all, to fix the possibility of a problem is a bit quick I think. If a problem truly develops, it will be solved.

If Cory could go back and undo his promise to allow combining of pledges he would. While you may be okay if they switch it at a later date there will be a shitstorm of other people who aren't, especially the people who are "only making $52" on it.

The VIP program is a discount program to give people a cheap way to get into the game and to reward loyal consumers. There is little reason to allow these packs to be tradeable (If you want to give them to a friend?) and a few big reasons to not make them tradeable. I hope they don't make the mistake of making them tradeable.

Badmoonz
06-04-2013, 01:06 PM
I anticipate boosters being worth about 90 cents on the marketplace until the second set comes out.

odjn
06-04-2013, 01:09 PM
What would the coding for this type of thing cost in dollars and time? I guess my thing is, one we don't know if this is a problem yet- the "evidence" laid out is unconvincing. But we do know that this would cost the CZE team time and resources to nip in the bud. I would argue that CZE would serve the community and game better by continuing to focus on the game itself- getting it out on time with servers that can handle the multitude of excited users (which is the single biggest downside I see when reading about patches and the release of on-line games).

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 01:09 PM
I anticipate boosters being worth about 90 cents on the marketplace until the second set comes out.
@$0.90, the boosters from King alone are still more valuable than the cost for King.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 01:11 PM
Setting artificial limits on buying and selling packs sets a dangerous precedent, and it something that is implied Crypto has leaned heavily away from

Exactly, that's why I'm uneasy about VIP. VIP is saying "you can buy booster packs at half price, but only 1 per week"

Also I'm quite curious what the booster pack price on the auction house will be, without kickstarter rewards to affect the price, so that means waiting until set 4 assuming we hit our newest stretch goal.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:11 PM
Actually, there are a couple of differences here. 10k people would need to be found to game the system, which would require the profits requisite to make it worth the time to do so...for 4 packs a month per person. Hmmm

Also not being recognized is the time value of money. Even with botting (which Cory has established as illegal, immoral (in Hex anyway) and punishable by death (in Hex)) it would take a significant amount of time to manage this whole system to game the system. While it is possible to do so, no one will attempt it to make pennies an hour, which the natural laws of supply and demand will shift the economy towards. And just note, while I respect and admire the Chinese, my money is on American ingenuity. Literally. Like, lots of it just to Cryptozoic.

Also, just the other day I sold a pack of M-13 on MTGO for 1.49. While I might have been able to get a better price, if that's anywhere near the current spread for value, you can expect a booster pack on Hex to be less than a $1 on the AH anyway, negating any and all value from trying to game the VIP club.

Setting artificial limits on buying and selling packs sets a dangerous precedent, and it something that is implied Crypto has leaned heavily away from. If you do it here, you must over there too, to balance the equation. A free flowing economy naturally balances the equation in the vast majority of cases, and I firmly believe the VIP club is one of them.

Finally, Cory has used strong words to describe his attitude towards those who game the system. If somehow, someway, someone found a way to game the system, Cory has already said they have tools to crush the offender, fix the problem, and bring things back to where they should be. If that requires account binding VIP packs, then I would not complain at that point.

All in all, to fix the possibility of a problem is a bit quick I think. If a problem truly develops, it will be solved.

I believe your thinking may be a bit narrow and maybe I am overestimating the value of the game, granted.

I am a believer in preparing for the worst and expecting worse when it comes to MMOs and real money merchandise. Where abuse is allowed, it will occur. Every protection from day-one against any amount of corruption is warranted. If this means Account binding packs, then I am all for it but it would be nice to not have that necessary evil in a social environment.

IE. I have no clue! Get rid of the VIP program - seems a bit harsh. Account bind the packs - disrupts player economy and limits trade of Primals acquired (though rares/legends might be worth more once opened

It is tough and I am not an economist nor a hacker so I really don't have the tools to solve the riddle but I can promise you one thing,

It will be abused to a point that severely effects the economy, thus the game itself.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:14 PM
What would the coding for this type of thing cost in dollars and time? I guess my thing is, one we don't know if this is a problem yet- the "evidence" laid out is unconvincing. But we do know that this would cost the CZE team time and resources to nip in the bud. I would argue that CZE would serve the community and game better by continuing to focus on the game itself- getting it out on time with servers that can handle the multitude of excited users (which is the single biggest downside I see when reading about patches and the release of on-line games).

I sincerely doubt that making one item nontradeable(especially since they will already have account bound nontradeable PVE cards... Fire breathing squirrels anyone?) will take any great amount of time.

For those saying well the packs will be worth less than a dollar anyways... Then why in the world would anyone use the VIP program? It would be a service to the community then if they made it less desirable so that people wouldn't be fooled into using it.

They have not come out one way or the other. They don't "owe" it to us to make it tradeable. They are offering a discount on their product and if they want to put restrictions on the use of that discounted item they are well within their rights to do so. You will always have the option to buy 2 dollar packs to do with what you may, or to by from the AH for potentially less.

There are huge pitfalls if you make them tradeable. They should not.

Erebus
06-04-2013, 01:14 PM
The issue is, this isn't even the best way to game the system? The amount of boosters inputted into the system is incredible small. Compared to something like draft.

at 8-4 or 4-3-3-2 that's 12 packs for 8 dollars, so 0.66/pack return. I'm assuming the best way to game the system is make 8 man drafts all by yourself (you and 7 bots) then you 24 rares, and 12 packs, sell the rares for plat, rinse and repeat.

So maybe rares from draft should be bind to account? Or reward packs from draft?

This "loophole" is small compared to much more profitable and time efficient ways to "game the system".

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:15 PM
@$0.90, the boosters from King alone are still more valuable than the cost for King.

If you look at the King Tier and amount of backers you will also notice that there will be roughly 300,000 packs (+stretch packs) out there floating around (most will be used personally anyhow). Whats left will be sold at a price higher than $1 as the early adopters will be buying them up. I don't see the tier rewards as a problem but the VIP Program present much larger issues and potential for abuse.

EDIT: I am purely basing this info off of King and you can do the maths for all the other tiers that gain boosters for KS rewards.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:17 PM
The issue is, this isn't even the best way to game the system? The amount of boosters inputted into the system is incredible small. Compared to something like draft.

at 8-4 or 4-3-3-2 that's 12 packs for 8 dollars, so 0.66/pack return. I'm assuming the best way to game the system is make 8 man drafts all by yourself (you and 7 bots) then you 24 rares, and 12 packs, sell the rares for plat, rinse and repeat.

So maybe rares from draft should be bind to account? Or reward packs from draft?

This "loophole" is small compared to much more profitable and time efficient ways to "game the system".

I highly doubt they will let you choose the composition of who goes into a draft for this very reason. Problem solved. Next?

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 01:17 PM
There's more boosters coming in from King than there are boosters coming in from the 3 months of VIP bonus given to everyone from Captain+.

Hell, there's about as many boosters coming from SQUIRE as there are from the 3 months VIP bonus.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:19 PM
There's more boosters coming in from King than there are boosters coming in from the 3 months of VIP bonus given to everyone from Captain+.

Hell, there's about as many boosters coming from SQUIRE as there are from the 3 months VIP bonus.

I don't really care about the short term post KS economy.. Long term is the issue.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 01:20 PM
The issue is, this isn't even the best way to game the system? The amount of boosters inputted into the system is incredible small. Compared to something like draft.

at 8-4 or 4-3-3-2 that's 12 packs for 8 dollars, so 0.66/pack return. I'm assuming the best way to game the system is make 8 man drafts all by yourself (you and 7 bots) then you 24 rares, and 12 packs, sell the rares for plat, rinse and repeat.

So maybe rares from draft should be bind to account? Or reward packs from draft?

This "loophole" is small compared to much more profitable and time efficient ways to "game the system".

Shouldn't every loophole be closed? Also if you run a draft by yourself, since you can't put a definitive price on cards you acquire, it would be 12 packs for 56 dollars...

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
To everyone who says: "Don't do it initially but if it becomes a problem change it later."

Changing it later could and will (in my opinion) result in a PR shitstorm which is why making it ungameable to start should be there goal (and I imagine it already is).

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
The issue is, this isn't even the best way to game the system? The amount of boosters inputted into the system is incredible small. Compared to something like draft.

at 8-4 or 4-3-3-2 that's 12 packs for 8 dollars, so 0.66/pack return. I'm assuming the best way to game the system is make 8 man drafts all by yourself (you and 7 bots) then you 24 rares, and 12 packs, sell the rares for plat, rinse and repeat.

So maybe rares from draft should be bind to account? Or reward packs from draft?

This "loophole" is small compared to much more profitable and time efficient ways to "game the system".

How would drafting rares be time efficient at all. Also, you are actually spending $56 for a net gain of 36 packs at $1.56 per pack. Thats nice and all but hardly efficient time-wise. The rares you may gain from the packs will never be more than the investment in the packs (unless you are the luckiest person in the universe).

Automatically getting 4 packs a month for $4 without even doing anything = win

So to the "but bots aren't allowed" criers: You don't have to write a script for a program that does not require a function. You simply have to have an account.

Erebus
06-04-2013, 01:22 PM
Dogmod it's probably a queue system, and normal queues and first in, first out. You put 30 accounts into the queue at the same time, how many do you think will be in a draft together.

But look at what CZE is doing. VIP makes packs $1.00 per, draft have packs $0.66 per pack. The secondary market the draft pack is going to be significantly less then $2 a pack. Probably close to $1.00 a pack. They have to know what they are doing.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:23 PM
Shouldn't every loophole be closed? Also if you run a draft by yourself, since you can't put a definitive price on cards you acquire, it would be 36 packs for 56 dollars...

fixed.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 01:24 PM
fixed.

Nope... I said you can't put a definitive price on cards you acquire - the unopened packs you end up with is 12.

origosis
06-04-2013, 01:24 PM
I do not always have the best foresight, thus why I suck at building decks.. But I just don't see this as becoming a very large issue.

I guess it really depends how much they end up selling the packs for, but in the end it would be worth more to most people to keep their packs and open them.. especially with the 1 Rare.

Erebus
06-04-2013, 01:26 PM
No offense, but it's a lot more time intensive then having an account = win. You have to log into each account, collect the packs, place them on an AH, move about any earning from those AH, and transfer those earnings to some sort of customer. All these things are easily trackable.

If they see 10000 accounts that only come on to put packs on AH and mail plat to another account, how is this hard to identify?

Massabik
06-04-2013, 01:26 PM
I would rather have them scrap the VIP program than make the cards untradeable. As someone that has to be careful where to spend money, the VIP program may very well be my only avenue of getting boosters. And if they were untradeable, that would preclude me from sharing with friends/family, which would be a very large PITA.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:26 PM
Nope... I said you can't put a definitive price on cards you acquire - the unopened packs you end up with is 12.

You said "cards that you acquire"

not boosters for trade/sale

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:27 PM
I would rather have them scrap the VIP program than make the cards untradeable. As someone that has to be careful where to spend money, the VIP program may very well be my only avenue of getting boosters. And if they were untradeable, that would preclude me from sharing with friends/family, which would be a very large PITA.

Not the cards.. just the wholesale packs.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 01:29 PM
You said "cards that you acquire"

not boosters for trade/sale

Right... there's some miscommunication here.

You run a booster draft by yourself, and you will end up with 12 unopened packs. The rest of the packs you will be forced to open, and I took them out of the equation because the cards won't have a definitive price.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:32 PM
No offense, but it's a lot more time intensive then having an account = win. You have to log into each account, collect the packs, place them on an AH, move about any earning from those AH, and transfer those earnings to some sort of customer. All these things are easily trackable.

If they see 10000 accounts that only come on to put packs on AH and mail plat to another account, how is this hard to identify?

I will say it again: "You underestimate the Chinese"

I will clarify as not to offend but more or less make a sweeping argument.

There are groups out there that can write very short scripts that can simply take from one area and consolidate to another with very little effort. Even if a script that simple was somehow not allowed, there are groups that have limitless resources (human beings) that can perform the same function at the cost of "free ice cream sundays!" Consolidation is not the problem.

Also, you assume that these groups will be doing all this work for the profit of "plat." I highly doubt it. They will sell the boosters acquired on their sites and reap whatever profit they can until the market gets broken and it is not worth it any longer.

Again, this is speculation based off what has happened with other F2P games and real money markets.

Massabik
06-04-2013, 01:32 PM
Not the cards.. just the wholesale packs.

OK, maybe I misunderstood something...you're saying make the Boosters account-bound, but once they are opened, the cards can be tradable?

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:33 PM
Right... there's some miscommunication here.

You run a booster draft by yourself, and you will end up with 12 unopened packs. The rest of the packs you will be forced to open, and I took them out of the equation because the cards won't have a definitive price.

Agreed. I don't think we have to worry about tournament drafts as an exploitable resource as much as other areas of the market.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:33 PM
OK, maybe I misunderstood something...you're saying make the Boosters account-bound, but once they are opened, the cards can be tradable?

Yup

Massabik
06-04-2013, 01:37 PM
Yup

OH!!

In that case, bind the hell out of the VIP boosters :)

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:38 PM
OH!!

In that case, bind the hell out of the VIP boosters :)

<3

Hieronymous
06-04-2013, 01:39 PM
I will say it again: "You underestimate the Chinese"

I will clarify as not to offend but more or less make a sweeping argument.

There are groups out there that can write very short scripts that can simply take from one area and consolidate to another with very little effort. Even if a script that simple was somehow not allowed, there are groups that have limitless resources (human beings) that can perform the same function at the cost of "free ice cream sundays!" Consolidation is not the problem.

Also, you assume that these groups will be doing all this work for the profit of "plat." I highly doubt it. They will sell the boosters acquired on their sites and reap whatever profit they can until the market gets broken and it is not worth it any longer.

Again, this is speculation based off what has happened with other F2P games and real money markets.

Presuming they can't block such scripts, If it's *that* big a deal they'll just end the VIP program, problem solved. Making things untradeable damages the secondary collectibles market and they've said they won't do that period.

Wombat
06-04-2013, 01:40 PM
So every pledger for the kickstarter is an exploiter as well, since we get the boosters for less then they are worth, and i bet a good part of these boosters and lotus cards will be sold later on (over the auction house or ebay doesnt matter) to cover the pledge expenses. And honestly this has more potential to break the economy as an exploit of the VIP system later on.

The only way to break the economy entirely, so it becomes unhealthy for the game is credit card fraud. So "companies" steel credit card information and then create thousands of VIP-accounts, then sell the packs over their own website because there is no ingame real money auction house (at least at start). So the website has to have all the account security stuff and safety like any other serious website that handles transactions.

Dont get me wrong, this whole scenario is not impossible, in fact we have this exact same scenario in WOW, but there were talking about gametime which leaves a way higher profit margin and the game has an incredible big player base.

So overall, i think the profit margin is just not there, and thats with the assumption that these sellers do not even have to pay for the vip program or booster (they obviously can even just buy them directly, its not their money yolo) since the credit card information was stolen. $1 of value minus the whole infrastructure costs, minus personal. You have to have a huge player base and therefore a huge demand for booster packs to become profitable enough, and lets be realistic, this game is not becoming WoW2 or LoL2, its a niche game for card gamers, maybe 100000-400000 players at its high.

There are smaller games, where the economy got f*ckd by "third party companies", so Cryptozoic has to be careful and maybe even implement the changes you suggest, but honestly those other games like Neverwinter and co. still provided a much higher profit margin + to exploit the game not even a single law had to be broken, and it could be done without any tools. So as long as Cryptozoic provides basic security, the game simply will be not really interesting for such companies. (unless its playerbase explodes and the real money AH gets implemented)

nicosharp
06-04-2013, 01:40 PM
I think a lot of people are looking at the VIP program in the wrong way.
The base value of a pack is being set to $1 by CZE.
The retail max value of a pack is being set to $2 by CZE.

It doesn't matter what falls between. What falls between is the 3rd party market that CZE can not be involved in.

Added:
They are already discussing the need to make credit cards unique. So multiple accounts can not all use the same credit card to run VIP programs. This makes it a lot more difficult for scammers to exploit low purchase power to theoretically make money on the AH. This money however is in-game money that needs to find a way to transfer back into cash to be worth a scammers time.

Genocidal
06-04-2013, 01:41 PM
I'm not following the logic where making an unopened pack untradeable but making the cards inside tradeable hurts the collectables market. Ending the VIP program would be a bigger issue than flagging packs as account bound, imo.

Daer
06-04-2013, 01:45 PM
Source? There's some confusion about when the decision of 'non-primal vs primal' is revealed, either on-acquisition (from CZE, not the auction house) or on-open, but in either case putting it on the auction house wouldn't affect the ability to be primal. Also if they've categorically stated whether it's on-open or on-acquisition I would appreciate a link to that source too.

Primals are revealed when the packs are generated, either by tournament wins, buying from CZE, or our Kickstarter boosters. If you buy a booster on the AH you will always get a regular booster, unless you specifically buy a Primal from the AH.

EDIT: man I am way behind the thread.

Hieronymous
06-04-2013, 01:45 PM
I'm not following the logic where making an unopened pack untradeable but making the cards inside tradeable hurts the collectables market. Ending the VIP program would be a bigger issue than flagging packs as account bound, imo.

There's going to be a secondary market for booster packs, if only from people buying and reselling in hopes of skimming the primals. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why the existence of such a secondary market is a problem, but it's just as much a "collectables" market as the market for individual cards is (don't believe me? Try to buy a box of unopened boosters of M:TG Revised Edition).

EDIT: for comparison, pledging right now at King tier lets you purchase booster packs at under $1 each. If all of those boosters are account bound a lot of people would be very annoyed, yes? With good reason.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 01:47 PM
There's going to be a secondary market for booster packs, if only from people buying and reselling in hopes of skimming the primals. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why the existence of such a secondary market is a problem, but it's just as much a "collectables" market as the market for individual cards is (don't believe me? Try to buy a box of unopened boosters of M:TG Revised Edition).

You can never get a Primal directly from buying a regular booster off the AH. You'd have to buy a Primal or use that regular booster in draft/other tournament in hopes that you get a Primal from your prizes.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:50 PM
So every pledger for the kickstarter is an exploiter as well, since we get the boosters for less then they are worth, and i bet a good part of these boosters and lotus cards will be sold later on (over the auction house or ebay doesnt matter) to cover the pledge expenses. And honestly this has more potential to break the economy as an exploit of the VIP system later on.

The only way to break the economy entirely, so it becomes unhealthy for the game is credit card fraud. So "companies" steel credit card information and then create thousands of VIP-accounts, then sell the packs over their own website because there is no ingame real money auction house (at least at start). So the website has to have all the account security stuff and safety like any other serious website that handles transactions.

Dont get me wrong, this whole scenario is not impossible, in fact we have this exact same scenario in WOW, but there were talking about gametime which leaves a way higher profit margin and the game has an incredible big player base.

So overall, i think the profit margin is just not there, and thats with the assumption that these sellers do not even have to pay for the vip program since the credit card information was stolen. $1 of value minus the whole infrastructure costs, minus personal. You have to have a huge player base and therefore a huge demand for booster packs to become profitable enough, and lets be realistic, this game is not becoming WoW2 or LoL2, its a niche game for card gamers, maybe 100000-400000 players at its high.

There are smaller games, where the economy got f*ckd by "third party companies", so Cryptozoic has to be careful and maybe even implement the changes you suggest, but honestly those other games like Neverwinter and co. still provided a much higher profit margin + to exploit the game not even a single law had to be broken, and it could be done without any tools. So as long as Cryptozoic provides basic security, the game simply will be not really interesting for such companies. (unless its playerbase explodes and the real money AH gets implemented)

I do not want to seem insensitive but for a game such as this, you are thinking really, really small. It doesn't really matter though. The game's success will be directly correlated to the amount of corruption involved with the product. If such corruption persists the number of subscriptions (accounts) will be limited.

If this is the next big thing to come down the pipe (Re: evolution of card games/mmos) then subscriptions could be in the millions very quickly.

Why couldn't the game become bigger than WoW or LoL, it is a different genre all-together?

Also, you don't need to steal a bunch of credit cards to have multiple accounts. Why not just charge a much smaller number of pre-paids or pay pals?

BTW: If I am company involved in stealing credit card information, I am not directing my attention at a start-up online TCG.

Hieronymous
06-04-2013, 01:50 PM
You can never get a Primal directly from buying a regular booster off the AH. You'd have to buy a Primal or use that regular booster in draft/other tournament in hopes that you get a Primal from your prizes.

Right, exactly, that was my point: people are going to buy $2 packs from Crypto in hopes of getting primals and then resell all the ones that aren't primals at some lower price point on the AH in order to make the cash back and then reinvest in buying more primals. Other people will buy boosters simply to hoard for later resale when the set goes out of print. Point being, unopened booster packs are a "collectable" with a secondary market; account-binding them damages that, and Crypto has said they won't do that.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 01:56 PM
Right, exactly, that was my point: people are going to buy $2 packs from Crypto in hopes of getting primals and then resell all the ones that aren't primals at some lower price point on the AH in order to make the cash back and then reinvest in buying more primals. Other people will buy boosters simply to hoard for later resale when the set goes out of print. Point being, unopened booster packs are a "collectable" with a secondary market; account-binding them damages that, and Crypto has said they won't do that.

Changing the dynamics of what someone has pledged is very different from changing the dynamics of a system which has not yet been released. They are the primary market. If they decide to offer a limited product at a discount that does not affect the secondary market. They have not made a promise that VIP boosters will be tradeable.

It will have a negative impact on the secondary market to make the program in the way you envision it. If you don't like account bound boosters than simply do not participate in the VIP program after your free months. If they set the terms of the offer you can choose to or not choose to accept it, without them interfering with the secondary market.

As to nico... I don't view them as "Just setting the parameters" of the market. I see this as a discount program for loyal/poor consumers. The way they develop the program could have a negative impact on the market through the rise of for profit endeavors on a large or even small scale.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 01:57 PM
Right, exactly, that was my point: people are going to buy $2 packs from Crypto in hopes of getting primals and then resell all the ones that aren't primals at some lower price point on the AH in order to make the cash back and then reinvest in buying more primals. Other people will buy boosters simply to hoard for later resale when the set goes out of print. Point being, unopened booster packs are a "collectable" with a secondary market; account-binding them damages that, and Crypto has said they won't do that.

Pretty much this regarding resale of boosters, there is no reason to make the $2 boosters ever account bound.

I think the main issue is that people might be able to exploit the system to a point where the boosters are barely worth the digital space they occupy thus making the game and future trading less valuable.

Genocidal
06-04-2013, 01:59 PM
There's going to be a secondary market for booster packs, if only from people buying and reselling in hopes of skimming the primals. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm not sure why the existence of such a secondary market is a problem, but it's just as much a "collectables" market as the market for individual cards is (don't believe me? Try to buy a box of unopened boosters of M:TG Revised Edition).
Ok, that makes some sense, but it's still entirely possible to bust the packs open, trade the cards for unopened packs, and sit on them. Account farmers are less likely to play that sort of a long game to make money.

EDIT: for comparison, pledging right now at King tier lets you purchase booster packs at under $1 each. If all of those boosters are account bound a lot of people would be very annoyed, yes? With good reason.The concern isn't with set 1, which we know the market is going to be crazy for; the current concern is thinking about the long term.

Hieronymous
06-04-2013, 02:03 PM
Pretty much this regarding resale of boosters, there is no reason to make the $2 boosters ever account bound.

I think the main issue is that people might be able to exploit the system to a point where the boosters are barely worth the digital space they occupy thus making the game and future trading less valuable.


Seems to me like that's a problem that can be dealt with when it happens. I mean, someone pledging King level right now is paying under $1 per booster. Do we need to account-bind all the Kickstarter packs just to somehow "fix" the market?

Just seems like a solution in search of a problem to me. Maybe the evil foreign hacker hordes will bot-spam with VIP accounts and debase the booster pack market, but if that happens Crypto probably has the tracking tools in place to spot and ban such botting accounts without penalizing everyone else by turning the collectables they paid for (i.e., boosters from the VIP program) into locked untradeables.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 02:07 PM
Seems to me like that's a problem that can be dealt with when it happens. I mean, someone pledging King level right now is paying under $1 per booster. Do we need to account-bind all the Kickstarter packs just to somehow "fix" the market?

Just seems like a solution in search of a problem to me. Maybe the evil foreign hacker hordes will bot-spam with VIP accounts and debase the booster pack market, but if that happens Crypto probably has the tracking tools in place to spot and ban such botting accounts without penalizing everyone else by turning the collectables they paid for (i.e., boosters from the VIP program) into locked untradeables.

A one time kickstarter event to what is hopefully a very small portion of the future economy is much different than a long term open monthly product.

You may have faith in Crypto, and I may have faith in Crypto. But that is just faith, so why design a system that can be easily gamed when you can design one that cannot be easily gamed?

They should always be looking for problems. This is a huge potential problem and the crap storm arising if they had to change the system would be huge because as you said changing something that someone has paid for would be a BIG deal. Right now no one has "paid" for anything, at least not in the sense that the VIP program has not been fully described (for all we know they could have already made the decision to make them account bound, neither you nor I have proof either way) and all future purchases would be made with the knowledge that they are account bound until opened or used in a draft. You can choose to or choose not to purchase knowing that.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 02:21 PM
This seems like a pretty good thread to post a question I asked to CZE a few days ago, it seems pretty relevant.



Thursday May 30 2013, 10:16am EDT




Hey Crypto, I have a question that has been bugging me for a while, I'm about to spend $2,000 on your game and a lot of the faith to do that comes from the idea that cards in TCG's have value. You have an auction house so I assume you wish to promote a secondary market, you'll have good prize support I hope to lure over pro's from magic.
But do you have an economist on staff working with you to keep your market stable, set 1 may be borked with all the kickstarter rewards. But there's still hope for the future!



Cryptozoic Entertainment (http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/cze)

Thursday May 30 2013, 2:09pm EDT


Hello Awesome Guy,
We've had a economic and monetization specialist working with us on HEX. It is our goal to make sure this game has a health secondary market for players.
Thanks.





I was very pleased to hear that they have someone dedicated to working on the issue of card value and secondary markets and that is a high priority goal for them. If they feel they need to have the vip packs account bound, then so be it. But I really truly hope they don't open that can of worms, the second they start binding packs to people is the second that people start to have some serious concerns about whether their cards actually have any real secondary value at all. If magic had to potential to keep booster that were won in tournaments from getting out, people that play tournaments would certainly be outraged. And the thing about the VIP program is that it lets CZE point to a recurring income, to use that to base future earnings speculation on rather than the ebb and flow of people buying plat. It's good for them, 20,000 people paying 4 bucks a month is not an insignificant amount of money coming in.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 02:23 PM
Seems to me like that's a problem that can be dealt with when it happens. I mean, someone pledging King level right now is paying under $1 per booster. Do we need to account-bind all the Kickstarter packs just to somehow "fix" the market?

Just seems like a solution in search of a problem to me. Maybe the evil foreign hacker hordes will bot-spam with VIP accounts and debase the booster pack market, but if that happens Crypto probably has the tracking tools in place to spot and ban such botting accounts without penalizing everyone else by turning the collectables they paid for (i.e., boosters from the VIP program) into locked untradeables.

Compared to the future economy, the KS booster packs out there will be a small fraction of the overall sales. 12,000 total users with the majority falling below King Tier. I would expect that the average TCGer (perhaps talking of PvPers mainly) will accrue more than 150 packs over the lifetime of the game and there will be significantly more than 12,000 users as the game progresses.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 02:26 PM
This seems like a pretty good thread to post a question I asked to CZE a few days ago, it seems pretty relevant.





I was very pleased to hear that they have someone dedicated to working on the issue of card value and secondary markets and that is a high priority goal for them. If they feel they need to have the vip packs account bound, then so be it. But I really truly hope they don't open that can of worms, the second they start binding packs to people is the second that people start to have some serious concerns about whether their cards actually have any real secondary value at all. If magic had to potential to keep booster that were won in tournaments from getting out, people that play tournaments would certainly be outraged. And the thing about the VIP program is that it lets CZE point to a recurring income, to use that to base future earnings speculation on rather than the ebb and flow of people buying plat. It's good for them, 20,000 people paying 4 bucks a month is not an insignificant amount of money coming in.

I personally would still use it if it is account bound and I feel that the majority of people who are not strictly looking for resale would as well. Any resalers would actually reduce the amount of money coming into Hex and not increase it if they are taking away from the demand for product directly from Crypto.

If they make the program this way from the start I don't see how they are opening a can of worms. If they end up having to change the program in the future it definitely could change the way many people feel about their digital collection. "Hey if they can change this they could change anything."....

So don't change it... fix it from the start... I hope their economist sees this problem as well.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 02:29 PM
I personally would still use it if it is account bound and I feel that the majority of people who are not strictly looking for resale would as well. Any resalers would actually reduce the amount of money coming into Hex and not increase it if they are taking away from the demand for product directly from Crypto.

If they make the program this way from the start I don't see how they are opening a can of worms. If they end up having to change the program in the future it definitely could change the way many people feel about their digital collection. "Hey if they can change this they could change anything."....

So don't change it... fix it from the start... I hope their economist sees this problem as well.

The only problem I have with the Account Bound VIP packs solution is the word "Tradable" in TCG becomes less descriptive. I personally do not have issues with the Account Bound Packs as I can simply use them first when playing in drafts, etc.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 02:30 PM
The only problem I have with the Account Bound VIP packs solution is the word "Tradable" in TCG becomes less descriptive. I personally do not have issues with the Account Bound Packs as I can simply use them first when playing in drafts, etc.

The solution does not come without some downside... You can still trade the cards... hence "Trading CARD Game"... I know you are agreeing with me but I am not blind to what others are concerned about either.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 02:34 PM
You're also missing the point entirely. if 10,000 people buy a 3 month subscription, that's 120k in the bank, they can point investors to that, they can rely on that. That's a solid number financial people understand, that's good for business. All the extra boosters might be more money, but it's also more volatile money. Banks hate volatile money when they can be on the receiving end of the shaft. The can of worms is, the entire house of cards is built on a TCG for TCG players. That means, collectors value, if they think for a second the company can swoop in and make them not able to trade something, it's a huge psychological hit. It will cost them more than some people not buying boosters. Especially since most people will be buying AH boosters anyway, especially in set 1, because they will have such a huge supply.

In fact, I'm willing to say that being a vip until set 2 comes out, is actually a money loser.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 02:39 PM
You're also missing the point entirely. if 10,000 people buy a 3 month subscription, that's 120k in the bank, they can point investors to that, they can rely on that. That's a solid number financial people understand, that's good for business. All the extra boosters might be more money, but it's also more volatile money. Banks hate volatile money when they can be on the receiving end of the shaft. The can of worms is, the entire house of cards is built on a TCG for TCG players. That means, collectors value, if they think for a second the company can swoop in and make them not able to trade something, it's a huge psychological hit. It will cost them more than some people not buying boosters. Especially since most people will be buying AH boosters anyway, especially in set 1, because they will have such a huge supply.

In fact, I'm willing to say that being a vip until set 2 comes out, is actually a money loser.

I guess my main concern revolves around the ability for those 10,000 accounts to destroy the integrity of a game by diminishing the value of the main product CZE has: Boosters.

I don't want some firm out there to exploit the system of $1 boosters to the point where they are worthless and thus no economy for the game. It has potential to destroy everything the gamer may hold dear. CZE will make profit regardless because they are producing virtual assets. I am not faulting them for anything other than they need to be very careful with real money economies when producing a virtually infinite product.

omghex
06-04-2013, 02:41 PM
It doesn't take money away from Cryptozoic. They don't lose anything on the discounted packs because there are no distribution or manufacturing costs associated once the initial development is done. It guarantees them 4 dollars per month which is super affordable and makes the game more affordable for new players, so the player gets value, and Cryptozoic makes even more money because the barrier to entry is reduced, making it more likely that the economy of scale will make up for the loss of the discounted packs. Overall I don't see this hurting the economy at all. I highly doubt that Cryptozoic would employ a VIP system that will result in a net loss of the company, or for player experience.

Jbizzi
06-04-2013, 02:44 PM
It doesn't take money away from Cryptozoic. They don't lose anything on the discounted packs because there are no distribution or manufacturing costs associated once the initial development is done. It guarantees them 4 dollars per month which is super affordable and makes the game more affordable for new players, so the player gets value, and Cryptozoic makes even more money because the barrier to entry is reduced, making it more likely that the economy of scale will make up for the loss of the discounted packs. Overall I don't see this hurting the economy at all. I highly doubt that Cryptozoic would employ a VIP system that will result in a net loss of the company, or for player experience.

Again, it is not about CZE losing money, they are safe to the point where the game gets exploited, stalls, fails. It is the gamer who needs to feel they are making a worthwhile investment to have fun, compete, trade and perhaps one day turn profit from early sets, prolonging the life of the game itself.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 02:51 PM
Again, it is not about CZE losing money, they are safe to the point where the game gets exploited, stalls, fails. It is the gamer who needs to feel they are making a worthwhile investment to have fun, compete, trade and perhaps one day turn profit from early sets, prolonging the life of the game itself.

And making things you buy, however you buy them, be that vip, ah, or tournament entry, is what strikes at the heart of a TCG gamer investing in this game more than anything else will. The booster packs are basically their own type of currency. If you sell them for $1 but make them untradeable, that is like turning in your real money for monopoly money. It's a bad call.

Especially since set one packs will go for much less than $1.

nicosharp
06-04-2013, 03:04 PM
Especially since set one packs will go for much less than $1.

Gwaer. Let me just quote you now, so you don't ask for credit later.
:P

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 03:18 PM
I don't see why you would need to limit the resale on the packs. For locking in a pack a week and creating a reliable source of income for them to track you get a discount.

At least no more then normal purchasing would

dogmod
06-04-2013, 04:13 PM
And making things you buy, however you buy them, be that vip, ah, or tournament entry, is what strikes at the heart of a TCG gamer investing in this game more than anything else will. The booster packs are basically their own type of currency. If you sell them for $1 but make them untradeable, that is like turning in your real money for monopoly money. It's a bad call.

Especially since set one packs will go for much less than $1.


But you make it sound like people who are going to use the VIP wouldn't if it was an account bound pack...

Does it somehow suddenly become a bad deal? I think it becomes a BETTER deal by doing that. I am not missing you bank point even though it is a privately held company which seems to be doing just fine. I am just stating that this change protects the economy, will not turn many people off to the VIP program, and has little downside..

This is not a slippery slope. This is them deciding that to be able to offer a great deal to the community it will need some restrictions. If you don't like the restrictions don't participate.

Not to mention they already have some account bound items like mercenaries etc..

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 04:35 PM
No, that's not my issue at all. The entire foundation of everything hex is built on becomes less certain the moment they start account binding booster packs. Everything is tradable, that was the original line, and vision they have been pitching. It's important for things to be 'ours' to do with as we wish. The more artificial limitations they put on objects that should otherwise be tradable the less faith we can have for them to not overtly meddle in secondary market situations. I'd prefer they just scrapped the vip program entirely than this. It's a bad precedent to set. Especially since it's really not that good of a deal, half off booster packs once a week for everyone that pays up front isn't going to ruin the market. I'm going to have over 1000 booster packs at launch. it would take nearly 20 people a whole year in VIP to have the same market impact I can have on day one. It's a non issue.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 04:42 PM
No, that's not my issue at all. The entire foundation of everything hex is built on becomes less certain the moment they start account binding booster packs. Everything is tradable, that was the original line, and vision they have been pitching. It's important for things to be 'ours' to do with as we wish. The more artificial limitations they put on objects that should otherwise be tradable the less faith we can have for them to not overtly meddle in secondary market situations. I'd prefer they just scrapped the vip program entirely than this. It's a bad precedent to set. Especially since it's really not that good of a deal, half off booster packs once a week for everyone that pays up front isn't going to ruin the market. I'm going to have over 1000 booster packs at launch. it would take nearly 20 people a whole year in VIP to have the same market impact I can have on day one. It's a non issue.


Everything ISN'T tradeable. That is already determine. There are mercenaries, there are cards, there are certain vanity items like deck sleaves. NOT tradeable. So now that we have gotten rid of the slippery slope argument and we are living in a brave world of greys instead of whites and blacks we can have a discussion about where to draw the line.

The fact is they have announced a VIP program which is abusable if left completely open. It shouldn't be for the sake of the economy. I weigh a real risk against the economy much higher than the "confidence fairy" related to if they decided to offer a deal with restrictions. If its not that good of a deal then it won't matter if they put restrictions on it. But the fact is it is a good deal and people will still think its a good deal if they make it less abusable.

And honestly the KS has crapped on the day one economy so making references to your day one impact or a hundred of your day one impacts is a non issue. We are talking long term.. thousands, hundreds of thousands, dare I wish it millions of players.. They need to make sound decisions on the economy from the get go, not need to backtrack once people start gaming the system. It is not a lack of faith in this community, it is complete faith that this community is full of gamers just waiting to exploit the smallest loophole.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 04:45 PM
The difference is mercs, and sleeves do not have a tradable counterpart, that is entirely the same in every way. The cards are from your class bonus, or from a faction reward. That's also understandable, and pve related. Packs are entirely different. They're a currency all their own. You haven't gotten rid of any issue, you've just put up a silly strawman.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 04:50 PM
it would take nearly 20 people a whole year in VIP to have the same market impact I can have on day one. It's a non issue.

It's a non-issue... for set 1. Set 4, on the other hand, would be another story.

But yeah, I wish they would change VIP to something less exploitable, even if not the untradable option, like "one free draft per month" - it would also encourage some people who normally wouldn't draft, to try draft.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 04:53 PM
It's honestly not that exploitable... It sets a variable cost for packs, somewhere between 1 and 2 bucks. CZE gets their steady income, people not interested in primals buy on the AH. Some vip's make a little bit of plat for their tournaments. It's not a problem no matter how far in the future you go.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 04:56 PM
The difference is mercs, and sleeves do not have a tradable counterpart, that is entirely the same in every way. The cards are from your class bonus, or from a faction reward. That's also understandable, and pve related. Packs are entirely different. They're a currency all their own. You haven't gotten rid of any issue, you've just put up a silly strawman.

No I got rid of your argument that "everything" is tradeable. Not setting up my own straw man since you set it up for me. And you have made the decision that packs are currency not me or anyone else.

I am sorry but it will not destroy the economy to have them giving out a special deal and placing restrictions on it. You have not made a persuasive argument. "It is a slippery slope." Garbage. "If they restrict one thing they may restrict others." They have restricted others, and the fact is a real threat to the economy will destroy it faster than some potential confidence issue.

If people want the deal with restrictions they will take it because its a good deal. If you want boosters to use as currency then go buy the 2 dollar ones or win them from tournies or buy in AH.

Now you can keep changing the argument, moving the goal posts, or pretending that I am using fallacies in my argument or you can make an argument beyond the confidence fairy or "they promised."

nearlysober
06-04-2013, 04:57 PM
n/m, not getting involved with this one

dogmod
06-04-2013, 04:59 PM
It's honestly not that exploitable...

Oh it is only slightly exploitable? That is cool


It sets a variable cost for packs, somewhere between 1 and 2 bucks. CZE gets their steady income, people not interested in primals buy on the AH. Some vip's make a little bit of plat for their tournaments. It's not a problem no matter how far in the future you go.

CZE will still get a steady income from people using even if it is account bound. Talk about a logical fallacy. And the fact is they are losing income to "some vip's" for no reason and it will affect the economy negatively no matter how small.

fitzle
06-04-2013, 04:59 PM
Like others, I'm pretty skeptical about how much of any real impact this has. It's all rough theory based off incomplete assumptions. It's like passing a law for a problem that doesn't exist. I would suspect there are going to be hackers out there searching for actual exploits to get them real cash rather than farming massive numbers of VIP accounts for what amounts to nickels and dimes.

Mike411
06-04-2013, 05:06 PM
Like others, I'm pretty skeptical about how much of any real impact this has. It's all rough theory based off incomplete assumptions. It's like passing a law for a problem that doesn't exist. I would suspect there are going to be hackers out there searching for actual exploits to get them real cash rather than farming massive numbers of VIP accounts for what amounts to nickels and dimes.

Nickels and dimes for one account, for one week, but then when you consider they could get their hands on a massive number of accounts, and given enough time, it's not trivial at all. Sure it gives CZE some predictable income, but they aren't a big company and they aren't answering to stockholders. It's a disincentive for anyone to buy boosters for $2 with the current system, and that's not good for anyone except those with the massive number of VIP accounts.

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 05:10 PM
Neither situation will destroy the economy. So that's nonsensical. One removes the TCG players confidence that CZE won't mess with their crap, which is the same one that lives up to their promise not to mess with the market. I see you're absolutely convinced VIP will destroy the economy so there's no point discussing with you. You're just falling back on being a moron and missing the point. So I'll just let you have your ravings here and move along. (you're wrong though) =)

Especially since the primary argument seems to be swarms of accounts, which will ruin the game in a lot more real ways, like an overabundance of gold/items, bots farming content etc. Which crypto says they can stop. *shrug*

ForgedSol
06-04-2013, 05:12 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, sorry, but it's pretty long. But has it been brought up that there will be more packs released into the wild through drafting, at a cheaper price than VIP boosters? Why is the VIP program the concern? (Unless you don't trust Cryptzoic's word that they can spot VIP abuse.) And no, I don't think draft prizes will be a problem. Seems to work just fine for MTGO.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 05:16 PM
Neither situation will destroy the economy. So that's nonsensical. One removes the TCG players confidence that CZE won't mess with their crap, which is the same one that lives up to their promise not to mess with the market. I see you're absolutely convinced VIP will destroy the economy so there's no point discussing with you. You're just falling back on being a moron and missing the point. So I'll just let you have your ravings here and move along. (you're wrong though) =)

Especially since the primary argument seems to be swarms of accounts, which will ruin the game in a lot more real ways, like an overabundance of gold/items, bots farming content etc. Which crypto says they can stop. *shrug*


ZZZ confidence fairy. Straw man etc.

It will not destory the economy it will negatively impact the economy. Apparently that isn't enough? And the fact is even without mass swarms of people exploiting it it will still have a negative impact on the economy.

Nice ad hominem attack by the way. And it always seems that the person who won the argument is the first to call the other a moron and say they won't respond anymore. Thats my experience at least.

stiii
06-04-2013, 05:29 PM
ZZZ confidence fairy. Straw man etc.

It will not destory the economy it will negatively impact the economy. Apparently that isn't enough? And the fact is even without mass swarms of people exploiting it it will still have a negative impact on the economy.

Nice ad hominem attack by the way. And it always seems that the person who won the argument is the first to call the other a moron and say they won't respond anymore. Thats my experience at least.

We should form a Gwaer declared victory against me guild.

Saying they are done is just a miserable way of trying to get the last word in. Use of the word ravings is rather telling. It is funny how you being utterly convinced of anything is absurd but him being utterly convinced is perfectly fine.

MugenMusou
06-04-2013, 05:46 PM
In short term, controlling pack price higher will benefit us (who donated Kickstarter and got bunch of packs) but in long run I think cheaper the packs, easier for people to join PvP; hence, overall more people playing the game. 4 packs per month is not enough for any single individual to make much. Let's say you can make 50 cents a pack i.e. selling for $1.50, you only make $2 a month.

I'm not sure how many people would take an serious effort to do that. Obviously, if one tries to create many accounts that would be an issue but HEX will prevent that.

So personally, I think they should be treated like regular packs, and even then probably impact is not as big as people would think. In fact, I hope they will sell volume pack for discounted price. So I can continue collecting cards.

Stig
06-04-2013, 06:51 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, VIP is $4 per month. Benefits include purchasing 1 pack per week (4 packs per month) at $1. Total cost for these 4 packs = $8. Total cost for 4 packs if you weren't in the program: $8.

Lets say I go and buy my 4 packs, and sell them each for $1.50, netting me a total of $6. I'm still DOWN $2 on the deal, since the cost of VIP is $4. The real benefit to the program is the free tournament entry, not the cheap packs. The cheap packs basically just guarantee to Crypto that you're going to buy at least 4 packs in the month.

For the first few months of the game, while a bunch of people have free VIP access, people are more likely to take that small hit to turn a (very small) profit. But again, we're talking less than the duration of set 1, which is already going to be at a lower value because of the volume of packs out there right at launch. Set 2, 3, 4, won't have this issue, and at that point VIP subscribers will be breaking even on the discounted packs. Again, the benefit is the free tournament entry, not the discounted packs.

There is no reason to think this will have any kind of lasting effect on the economy.

Daer
06-04-2013, 06:52 PM
The VIP program GIVES you 4 packs, you don't buy them at $1.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 06:54 PM
Unless I'm mistaken, VIP is $4 per month. Benefits include purchasing 1 pack per week (4 packs per month) at $1. Total cost for these 4 packs = $8. Total cost for 4 packs if you weren't in the program: $8.

Lets say I go and buy my 4 packs, and sell them each for $1.50, netting me a total of $6. I'm still DOWN $2 on the deal, since the cost of VIP is $4. The real benefit to the program is the free tournament entry, not the cheap packs. The cheap packs basically just guarantee to Crypto that you're going to buy at least 4 packs in the month.

For the first few months of the game, while a bunch of people have free VIP access, people are more likely to take that small hit to turn a (very small) profit. But again, we're talking less than the duration of set 1, which is already going to be at a lower value because of the volume of packs out there right at launch. Set 2, 3, 4, won't have this issue, and at that point VIP subscribers will be breaking even on the discounted packs. Again, the benefit is the free tournament entry, not the discounted packs.

There is no reason to think this will have any kind of lasting effect on the economy.

Most people understand the mechanic to be that you get a pack weekly for free after the 4 dollar payment.

I think we have hashed out the pros and cons pretty well. I hope that cryptozoic sides with me or that they are smart enough to solve any problems that will/could arise (I have quite a bit of faith).

Just remember the 5Ps... Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance

Don't get caught with your pants down if you can avoid it

Mike411
06-04-2013, 07:14 PM
Also it's really 1 per week so it's really 4.333333333333333 packs per month hehe :)

Shivdaddy
06-04-2013, 07:43 PM
Dog you are panicking a little too much. They will be able to spot VIP abuse, as they said they could. This will bring down the prices of boosters, no question. With packs already being a cheap $2.00, I think packs will settle around $1-$1.25 range. The more I think about it though, I could do without VIP, because I think boosters being at $1.00 or less is too cheap and will make all but the best Legendary cards worthless. Account bound packs will never happen, its a TCG for heavens sake. I like the idea of a "draft pack" for $4 a month instead, $7 value instead of a possible $8/$10 with a pack a week.

nicosharp
06-04-2013, 08:04 PM
The VIP program will not be an issue.

Casual players will be intimidated by the AH market, and hardcore players will be able to win packs and sell packs close to $1 anyway.

The large majority of players that get heavily involved in either the PvP or PvE, but are not necessarily the best at it will be the general market for packs on the AH. With how quickly packs are consumed, the AH will constantly stabilize.

If packs drop below $1 in value, people simply start cancelling their VIP pledges, and as the quantity runs out, prices climb up again.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 09:06 PM
The 8-4 draft will only support about 50% of the players who enter it, at most...

dogmod
06-04-2013, 09:17 PM
The VIP program will not be an issue.

Casual players will be intimidated by the AH market, and hardcore players will be able to win packs and sell packs close to $1 anyway.

The large majority of players that get heavily involved in either the PvP or PvE, but are not necessarily the best at it will be the general market for packs on the AH. With how quickly packs are consumed, the AH will constantly stabilize.

If packs drop below $1 in value, people simply start cancelling their VIP pledges, and as the quantity runs out, prices climb up again.

$1 dollar should not be the equillibrium price for packs when cryptozoic is selling them for $2... Without the VIP program existing it would not even be a discussion... Correct me if I am wrong but the price for packs in MTGO was usually between 3-3.75 dollars for a pack depending on the timing etc.. This would argue for an equillibrium in hex of 1.50-1.85... Why would they undercut themselves so substantially? If they are going to undercut themselves it should be to keep players, bring in new players, and entice PvEers to buy packs. While doing this they shouldn't open themselves up to people who are attempting to make a profit solely for the sake of making a profit.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 09:19 PM
In the end, it doesn't matter.

All packs come from CZE in one form or another.

dogmod
06-04-2013, 09:22 PM
In the end, it doesn't matter.

All packs come from CZE in one form or another.

Yes but some packs will be bought at 1 dollar and some will be bought at 2 dollars. The amount that packs are bought at will directly impact the value of the cards in the long run. If there is a secondary market they are lowering the value of the cards, the packs, and reducing their own income while only benefiting resellers. And while you may be a reseller, average joe may not be and is harmed by this. The game and the economy should be focused on what happens in the game and not on a cat and mouse between cryptozoic and people attempting to game the system.

Malicus
06-04-2013, 09:25 PM
Dang finally managed to catch up. Firstly the idea of a booster that is untradeable feels wrong, do I have 3 listings for boosters now regular primal and VIP?

As to fixing the problem given what we have been told so far such as the need for unique credit cards etc they will be actively targeting multiple accounts (with I believe some leeway for families etc but targeting exploits) this will likely have additional focus where VIP is concerned. No make it punishable to abuse VIP and track them effectively.

Now given this we need to look at the risk/reward for abusing the system. We wil ignore stolen cards etc for now and assume some spending limits or some such (we can ignore this since it doesn't pertain specifically to VIP). It costs $4 for VIP which you pay up front, it then takes you assuming $1.25 per booster 3 weeks to cover your investment with week 4/5 being gravy. Given the likelihood of a large scale operation being detected within this time frame it is likely not worth the trouble, as for non-large scale enterprises slipping through, not really a big deal.

The other thing to look at is the volume of boosters this would be able to produce in the market, a non pvp+ player in the future would need 3 additional VIPs to facilitate a weekly draft even more at set release.

Boosters will sell at retail prices simply due to demand if the game is successful. A lower price point on boosters will help to bring price conscious players into the game which is a win.

BlindMan
06-04-2013, 09:29 PM
In the end, it doesn't matter.

All packs come from CZE in one form or another.

Exactly. I don't see how the price changes anything except how many cards people can afford in their collection. I have never seen anyone who plays a TCG say, "I would like to purchase 5 packs of cards, how much will that cost me?" It's always, "I have 10 dollars, what can I get for that?" People have a certain amount of money they can spend, in the end all the products are being bought from Cryptozoic. The only difference is being able to draft twice a week instead of once.

For anyone who thinks that a flood of cheap packs will kill off the value of a pack, have you considered that it's self-defeating? Making a new account so you can make 75 cents a week selling packs for $1.75 is tedious enough. But what about when the price drops to $1.25? or $1.10? How far down do you really think it can go before keeping a separate account with it's own credit card isn't worth the pennies per week you get? The more it "damages" the economy, the less profitable it will be. In the end, Cryptozoic still sells a lot of packs, and everyone gets to play a little cheaper.

nicosharp
06-04-2013, 09:37 PM
$1 dollar should not be the equillibrium price for packs when cryptozoic is selling them for $2... Without the VIP program existing it would not even be a discussion... Correct me if I am wrong but the price for packs in MTGO was usually between 3-3.75 dollars for a pack depending on the timing etc.. This would argue for an equillibrium in hex of 1.50-1.85... Why would they undercut themselves so substantially? If they are going to undercut themselves it should be to keep players, bring in new players, and entice PvEers to buy packs. While doing this they shouldn't open themselves up to people who are attempting to make a profit solely for the sake of making a profit.

MTG:O is no comparison. It has a semi-controlled market, and is a suboptimal example of how a truly digital TCG should operate. MTG:O is just a digital front for a paper card game, and tries its best to let players know it is a paper card game. Yet it makes it hard as hell to transfer the digital cards to paper.

I think you underestimate the casual gamer.
Let me use LOL as an example for the 100th time:
Impulsive casual gamers will buy champions and skins at full price.. or at bundled prices on release.
Impulsive casual gamers will also not be scouring auction houses for steals, or waiting for sales.
Retail prices are for impulsive casual gamers.

CZE is charging $2 because of that market. Anything between $1 and $2 is profit for CZE. It is profit because it is being spent in some form, with CZE.

Draft is 24 packs in 12 packs out. The 12 pack loss is coming from somewhere. Packs are still being sold or acquired through the VIP. There is way too much circular logic in this thread.. They have an economist working with them per Gwaer's comment.. I trust they know what they are doing.

caffn8d
06-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Should you flag all the packs as untradeable that the King tier gets as well? After all, they are getting 150 packs for $120. Someone stacking multiple King tiers and looking to speculate will do much greater damage to the booster price than the VIP program. And once we've started down that road, the alternate art PvP cards that I'm getting as part of the collector's tier might end up being very valuable as well. Should they not be tradeable to insure I don't make a profit?

CZE already has their money by the time the cards are in your virtual "hands". I think the VIP program is a complete non-issue and people should be free to do with their cards as they please. Ownership in a digital space is already tenuous enough.

BlindMan
06-04-2013, 09:41 PM
I think the VIP program is a complete non-issue and people should be free to do with their cards as they please. Ownership in a digital space is already tenuous enough.

This is pretty much it. They take the integrity of people's digital collections very seriously, Cory has said as much in more than one video.

Tinuvas
06-04-2013, 09:53 PM
$1 dollar should not be the equillibrium price for packs when cryptozoic is selling them for $2...

According to whom? Do you have a source for that statement?



Correct me if I am wrong but the price for packs in MTGO was usually between 3-3.75 dollars for a pack depending on the timing etc..

I just sold a pack of M-13 for 1.49 tickets, or $1.49. I am fairly certain that is on the bottom of the scale (block rotation and whatnot), but if you want to assume top of the scale, at least I can provide with relative certainty something approaching the bottom. To assume based off of one side of the equation will lead to a flawed result.



This would argue for an equillibrium in hex of 1.50-1.85... Why would they undercut themselves so substantially?

Why would they indeed. And equilibrium would be...less than $1 on the assumed bottom of the scale.



While doing this they shouldn't open themselves up to people who are attempting to make a profit solely for the sake of making a profit.
I truly agree with this statement. I feel very strongly about it. It would frustrate me to no end to see this game ruined and/or negatively impacted by those in it for the money. I expect that if you took both your passion for this concept, my passion for this concept, and the passion for EVERY SINGLE KS backer for this concept and wrapped them all together, it would pale in comparison to the passion for this concept felt by Cory (evidence for this is shown in his last KS update as well as a number of videos in which the subject of security has been breached).

I have put far too much of my own money into this game (happily, I assure you). I assume you have as well. While I do trust Crypto to make the best decisions in regards to this game, it doesn't completely eliminate my concerns about the security surrounding the game in general. I will be much happier when I can see the game in action and the things that are being done to keep the game going smoothly while keeping the bad guys at bay.

So, with how much passion we feel for the game (which pales in comparison to Cory and Crypto in general) and how much money we have put into it (which individually pales in comparison with Cory and Crypto) and how much is riding on the line for each of us (which severely pales in comparison to how much is riding on the line for Cory and Crypto), WHY, in heaven above, would they do something so STUPID as to create a system so easily breakable as the VIP system? If it is going to be SO easily breakable and SO destructive to the economy and just SO bad for everyone, WHY would they do it?

I have read every post in this thread and while it may be me, I have yet to understand a viable answer to the above question. Please help me understand (and I mean NO sarcasm). If you truly have an insight (especially if it's because of industry knowledge, info on specific plans by bad guys etc.) into this subject that you truly think hasn't been thought of by men who will lose their jobs, their industry prestige, their dreams, and quite possibly their company if this doesn't work, I would really like to know about it.

My opinion on the matter is that this is a 'sky-is-falling' subject. But I could be wrong. I hope I'm not, but everyone hopes. The points you have brought up before have not convinced me. Maybe they weren't well worded, and maybe it's just my little brain. If it is just me, then I apologize. What evidence do you have that this program will be a problem?

Vorpal
06-13-2013, 07:58 AM
I don't mind the packs themselves being untradeable as long as the cards are.

I plan to use all my VIP packs either for drafts or to open them myself.

I'd be irritated if the cards I got from a VIP Pack were untradeable - it's a trading card game.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 08:06 AM
No one has any proof that the vip program is as easily abusable as people are making out here. Cory has said numerous times that their bot detecting is baked right into the system and very good. That would catch people using bots to farm vip accounts I think too. And having thousands of vip accounts and flooding the market at a small markup on $1 is the only way people are going to make money. If they cant have a bot army of thousands doing it, it won't work. They seem very confident that it won't work, and they know a lot more about it than we do. They have economists on their team figuring out how this will play out, and the back end infrastructure to keep it from being abused, who are you to say they're wrong?

panzer
06-13-2013, 08:06 AM
I'd be irritated if the cards I got from a VIP Pack were untradeable - it's a trading card game.

^this^
I can only imagine going through the collection and seeing half my cards marked as untradable.

dogmod
06-13-2013, 08:09 AM
^this^
I can only imagine going through the collection and seeing half my cards marked as untradable.

I don't think anyone ever suggested making the cards themselves untradeable. Fortunately/Unfortunately this is all speculation at this point.

The people who think its not a problem have lots of faith in crypto and very little faith in the unwashed masses of gamers. The people who think it will be a problem have less faith in crypto or perhaps just a ton of faith in the unwashed masses.

Unwashed masses be brutal yo.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 08:41 AM
First, I don't really think this will be a problem (tho I provided a possible solution for those who do in the other thread-instead of giving boosters have the VIP program give draft entry tokens-not as wide a range of appeal but it wouldn't screw up the economy like some are afraid of) but here's one scenario I don't know has been brought up that could potentially be a problem.

I don't think most people will bother on a large scale do to the cost/effort vs. benefit and they hopefully have good enough not detection (that's an ongoing war though as AI improves tho) but the one group that could cause problems is a Chinese pseudo slave labor sweat shop. A shop with 20 computers running constantly by practiced individuals could conceivably do pretty well. A practiced individual could interact with what? 30 accounts an hour? With all the accounts trading with each other and doing whatever is necessary to avoid easy detection if run by a smart individual. I won't attempt to do the math but it could get pretty crazy and with wages in China the cost/benefit goes way up.

I'm not particularly worried but it is a concern I imagine CZE is taking seriously and if the game is successful Chinese sweat shops will attempt this. It will be another ongoing war just like the one with the bots but more difficult a problem since you're dealing with real humans.

Justin

cakedraftmasters
06-13-2013, 09:03 AM
So they should make it easy to break?

I can't argue that the game will be cheaper to play if they don't do as I suggest. I only argue that the game will be cheaper to play at the benefit of profiteers. This will harm the product in the long run as it takes money away from cryptozoic, it will discourage general players from getting into the AH and trading aspect of the games (look at D3, they have already talked about ways to avoid it but that may be a separate discussion), and will degrade the community (in my opinion no proof).

Less money to cryptozoic = less money put back into the game

More money to profiteers = no benefit to you or I and large potential negatives to the community and game in general.

You are missing the benefit of having a cheaper entry into the game. Cheaper entry will lead to a larger player base. Larger player base is essential for the long term health of the game.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 10:37 AM
If CZE is happy with getting the majority of their booster sales from the VIP program, then the VIP program is fine as is.