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Stok3d
06-04-2013, 03:08 PM
Defending the Guild Keep has the potential to become a vital part of the "End Game" that the PVE side so desperately needs. Basically, wth do you plan on doing once you've killed all the raid bosses? (yeah, I'm up for a Heroic Raid mode implementation too--that's another topic)

There are two games I played and the entire end game was "Defending Your Keep" and Attacking others. Facebook's Castle Age (https://apps.facebook.com/castle_age/) was one and Evony (www.evony.com/‎) is another. Honestly, some mechanics of Evony End Game could go GREAT here. I even think the guild allegiance part that formulates could be fun too.

Without going to indepth into my ideas quite yet, I'd like to have a brainstorm session on how you could envision the "Defending Your Keep" should be, how rewards should be generated, and how it could be built upon. I'll just throw this out there, but you know WoW has "Guild Perks" that come when you level the guild and gold is auto generated as a percentage deposited from what a guildie loots. Sounds interesting...

This idea is very underdeveloped imo... what do you guys got? Has anyone played Evony and experienced the need to attack things in massive waves picking off one layer of defense at a time? (IE: it may take 10-20x targetted attacks to take down enough layers to break through)



Kevin Jordan on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360) 1:00.40 - 1:02.10

Cory Jones on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412717902) 0:02.00 - 0:03.20

nicosharp
06-04-2013, 03:10 PM
It's really hard to visualize how this will work to me, cause I keep thinking of the iOS game - Clash of Clans.

It sounds like a ton of fun, but wonder how this will work in an automated fashion, and how smart the AI will be with a deck you create for defense..? Not really sure how this will play out.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 03:12 PM
- Mercenaries can stay at the keep and control your deck for you
- Passive XP to defending Mercs
- Passive income based on defending ranking
- Extra territories based on attacking ranking
- Random upgrade stuff like better walls (for a wall card in play when you start), moats, portcullis, arrow slits, flags, etc. that cost gold or crafting mats.

Maybe have a visual effect for upgrades.

The keep will look like...well, the art of a large building of your race, with a flag/banner flying overhead. The background is adjustable.

d00dz
06-04-2013, 03:18 PM
Here are some of my ideas as I posted in this thread with some added in, http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24686&page=3

1. Archers that reduce your opponent's life by 1 each turn
2. Banners to permabuff all troops
3. Reduced casting cost
4. Storage facility with free resources/thresholds
5. Start with some constants or defending troops in play
6. Healer heals defending champion every turn
7. Resident wizard that gives a random buff or casts an offensive spell every turn
8. Portcullis which an attacker has to destroy before they can damage defending troops/champion
9. Moat which limits number of attackers per turn
10. Faction support/reinforcements if you have high enough reputation
11. Mines that randomly damage an attacking troop after some conditions are met ( > X attackers )
12. Nets that are randomly thrown on an enemy troop to prevent them from attacking or blocking
13. Ground traps that exhaust a random attacking troop for 2 turns.
14. Ballistae or catapults that do massive damage to a random troop after some conditions are met

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 03:19 PM
It'd be pretty awesome if you had full out Song of Ice and Fire-level allegiances, but that'd be a game in-of-itself.

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 03:20 PM
I think part of pve raid content should be capturing massive monsters to guard your guild keep.

That way you can populate your keep with cool monsters with set monstery decks that could have extra flare.

I figure making it raid content would enforce more community building goodness too. Who wouldn't want a bad ass kraken in the moat right?

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 03:21 PM
I think part of pve raid content should be capturing massive monsters to guard your guild keep.

That way you can populate your keep with cool monsters with set monstery decks that could have extra flare.

I think capturing raid bosses might be a bit too...pokemon-y for me.

I wouldn't mind being able to raise a squire or something.

Vibraxus
06-04-2013, 03:25 PM
I just keep thinking of the mechanic of defending/raiding another guild in MUDDs.

Have the ability to either step into a mercenary defending my keep, or jump into the battle in addition to my defenders.....

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 03:26 PM
I think capturing raid bosses might be a bit too...pokemon-y for me.

I wouldn't mind being able to raise a squire or something.

Well, collecting things is kind of the theme of the game :P

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 03:29 PM
Well, collecting things is kind of the theme of the game :P

Okay, let's compromise and combine both our ideas.

Find a dragon egg - Raise a dragon. :)

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 03:31 PM
Okay, let's compromise and combine both our ideas.

Find a dragon egg - Raise a dragon. :)

I think the top rated guild should sit at the coveted iron throne.

facade
06-04-2013, 03:44 PM
Regarding the prize structure: I think CZE should supply most of the prizes (which I think is how it is supposed to work, but I don't recall any confirmation on this). That way defenders are never really penalized for losing since defenders might be at a small disadvantage with an AI piloting the deck. In addition, if CZE supplies the prizes rather than have the defender front the costs, then 100 attackers can successfully win and the defender won't have to come up with 100 rewards.

The quality of prizes themselves should of course be based on the win/loss rate of the keep as well as the popularity of the keep. That way if someone crafts an enjoyable, but difficult Keep, they will be richly rewarded. In addition, this prevents a particular dungeon from being spammed; if a high difficulty keep was found to have a critical weakness that attackers began to exploit, the win/loss ratio of the keep would go down and the prizes for defeating the keep would go down as well, providing a disincentive players from grinding a particular keep.

Lastly, I think the rewards should mostly be PvE stuff that is NOT gold: PvE cards, equipment, upgrades to the keep, etc. The reason why gold should NOT be a reward is that this would make an excellent in-game sink of gold.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 03:52 PM
I think the gold comes from the seige-fee... basically the prize is lottery-jackpot style where the more people lose to the keep, the more the jackpot grows.

Stok3d
06-04-2013, 04:03 PM
Updated with Twitch link on OP where the current status is detailed.

Lochar
06-04-2013, 04:16 PM
Kraken tentacles!

facade
06-04-2013, 04:18 PM
I think the gold comes from the seige-fee... basically the prize is lottery-jackpot style where the more people lose to the keep, the more the jackpot grows.

That's a little disappointing...

I knew there was a gold fee to siege a keep, but I was hoping the rewards would have been anything but gold. Even if it was just equipment. There are already over a thousand pieces of equipment to collect, this would have been a nice alternative to just grinding dungeons.

Lochar
06-04-2013, 04:22 PM
That's a little disappointing...

I knew there was a gold fee to siege a keep, but I was hoping the rewards would have been anything but gold. Even if it was just equipment. There are already over a thousand pieces of equipment to collect, this would have been a nice alternative to just grinding dungeons.

Honestly, I hope we can make the ante different than just gold.

1 Common equipment/card buys one attempt.
1 Uncommon buys 2
1 Rare buys 4
1 Legendary buys 6


Although, if I can't get anything out of it myself I probably won't seed it with anything useful. Because just like the lotto, where's my cut?

Stok3d
06-04-2013, 04:27 PM
That's a little disappointing...


Yes it is very disappointing and why I made this thread. Hoping the community can turn this around.

Defending your keep has A LOT of potential and could quite possibly be a vital part of the Hex PVE End-Game. I'm currently envisioning an Evony playstyle... but want to see what ppl can come up with on this.

facade
06-04-2013, 04:48 PM
I'm not familiar with Evony. Could someone give a quick summary of the relevant mechanics with regard to the incentives to attacking another player?

Gwaer
06-04-2013, 04:51 PM
I'm not familiar with Evony. Could someone give a quick summary of the relevant mechanics with regard to the incentives to attacking another player?
It was spamming every game page with ads of busty elves babes for like 4 years straight, how'd you miss it?

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 04:52 PM
I think players should be able to craft traps for the keep, this would give players another thing to craft.

How do you build traps in a card game? Well maybe something like first turn your enemy starts out with one less troop in hand or their champion gets zapped every three turns reducing a charge. Maybe a timed puzzle element pops up that would mimic something from the dungeon puzzles.

Vibraxus
06-04-2013, 04:53 PM
So I get nothing for a successful defense? And what is this bounty, do I have to put it up as guild leader, or is this a CZE sponsored list of "bounty" I can pick? Do I get to use my own mercenaries to run my decks? Will I get to jump in an active raid and knock some heads around?
These questions really will make the difference to how much effort/time I will put into making my keep.

Zomnivore
06-04-2013, 04:56 PM
So I get nothing for a successful defense? And what is this bounty, do I have to put it up as guild leader, or is this a CZE sponsored list of "bounty" I can pick? Do I get to use my own mercenaries to run my decks? Will I get to jump in an active raid and knock some heads around?
These questions really will make the difference to how much effort/time I will put into making my keep.

Your clan gets the entry fee added to the pot and increased rating. Potentially see the entry fee also adding into your guild own coffer while duplicating into the pot.

Stok3d
06-04-2013, 05:03 PM
I'm not familiar with Evony. Could someone give a quick summary of the relevant mechanics with regard to the incentives to attacking another player?

It's hard to explain tbh if you haven't played. This guy's Blog looks good and gives you an idea of what's going on: Evony Attack Methodology (http://evonyhints.wordpress.com/category/attacking/)

Basically, it becomes a real time strategy game of figuring out what type of troops, quantities, and quality of heroes the guy has. One frontal attack won't work as defense range and attacker speed play a vital role. To get through, a well organized multi-player attack needs to be formulated. The attacks come in waves by trying to focus one specific aspect of the defense to knock out and done in succession. Timing of each wave is also vital.

Then they take it the level of guilds attacking every member of other guilds (you can choose alliances and who you're at war with)

I believe a lot of this methodology could care over into Hex and really open the doors for a very enjoyable and addicted PVE / PVP Guild-vs-Guild Events.

facade
06-04-2013, 05:16 PM
It was spamming every game page with ads of busty elves babes for like 4 years straight, how'd you miss it?

Very easily actually. It's amazing what AdBlockers do to improve one's experience on websites.



I think players should be able to craft traps for the keep, this would give players another thing to craft.

How do you build traps in a card game? Well maybe something like first turn your enemy starts out with one less troop in hand or their champion gets zapped every three turns reducing a charge. Maybe a timed puzzle element pops up that would mimic something from the dungeon puzzles.

Another way of traps would be implementing some sort of trigger, such as whenever a player attacks with an Ardent aligned creature (or some other condition), play a pre-determined spell. I think this would be a rather interesting condition to play against if something like Chronic Madness is triggered every time a creature attacks.





Then they take it the level of guilds attacking every member of other guilds (you can choose alliances and who you're at war with)

I believe a lot of this methodology could care over into Hex and really open the doors for a very enjoyable and addicted PVE / PVP Guild-vs-Guild Events.

I agree with you there. Having some sort of guild ranking based on win/loss ratios of the keeps in a guild would definitely be one way to keep interest in the Keep Defense, even if the only incentive is just more gold. I know for me if the only reward in Keep Defense is gold, I'll probably stay out.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 06:18 PM
I really dislike the idea of paying an 'entry fee' to attack a keep just from a flavour perspective.

Maybe it could be a penalty if you fail instead

Or a bribe to the king to allow you to attack one of his subjects without retribution

Or even bribe some of the keep's mercenaries to open the gate and make it a bit easier at the risk of a higher cost..

dogmod
06-04-2013, 06:25 PM
Keep defense is brilliant and leads me to believe they will be wildly successful... we need more ideas like keep defense to keep the eyeballs and clickers going

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 06:35 PM
I really dislike the idea of paying an 'entry fee' to attack a keep just from a flavour perspective.

Maybe it could be a penalty if you fail instead

Or a bribe to the king to allow you to attack one of his subjects without retribution

Or even bribe some of the keep's mercenaries to open the gate and make it a bit easier at the risk of a higher cost..

You think war is free? Consider it a siege fee or an army mobilization fee. :)

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 06:38 PM
You think war is free? Consider it a siege fee or an army mobilization fee. :)

That would be ok too - just so long as i dont feel like im paying an entrance fee for a Haunted House... ;)

Stok3d
06-04-2013, 09:39 PM
That would be ok too - just so long as i dont feel like im paying an entrance fee for a Haunted House... ;)

So it doesn't get lost, I'm linking your idea: Keep Defense: Add Lore (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24755)

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 09:56 PM
So it doesn't get lost, I'm linking your idea: Keep Defense: Add Lore (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24755)

Thanks Stok3d, I was planning on posting it as a reply to this thread but then I felt it got too big.

Sholynyk
09-25-2013, 09:36 AM
http://i1.17173.itc.cn/2009/esports/...2231141632.jpg

^ moderately how i would picture being able to create a keep

The way I pictured creating your Keep would be to make your own dungeon. It would allow for a great gold sink if they made each expandable piece you create allowing for hall ways and turns, separate rooms each containing a specific (gold purchasable) bonus and deck to defeat. However should the person decide to go straight for the final deck there is a much shorter path. If the player decides to go that way the "boss" deck contains all of the bonus's from all of the uncleared rooms

Stuff like a necrotic crypt "each turn a 1/1 zombie with slow (can only attack every second turn) appears on the field"
or a Diamond hex vault "each turn the boss champion gains one life"
a wild shrine "defending deck has a 25% chance of one unit gaining +2/+2 at the beginning of their turn.


Some people might say that it would decrease the chances of people playing against each dungeon if they were too hard. however that is where it ties in with the rewards at the end + success ratio's being displayed. The harder it is the bigger the prize. aka if the keep is almost impossible to beat then a person would put up a primal pack as the prize for winning. (if they wanted people to continue trying)

nicosharp
09-25-2013, 10:32 AM
It would be pretty cool if the raider had to choose how to navigate through the keep.

I am playing a game casually now called "the mighty quest for epic loot", and in it you design a dungeon and drop in monsters and traps to defend it from enemy heroes. Heroes are basically running the dungeon like a diablo character, and have different skills/abilities/items. 1 major fun factor take-away here is leading a hero through your dungeon to a dead-end.

It sounds like the keep defense will feature 3 decks designed to beat your opponents 1 raiding deck. (In early reveals of how this will work).

To add mazing, before and after beating a deck the raider would have to make a navigation decision in the keep. Depending on the route they take different traps can be set (ie - you start the next battle with 1 less card / you start the battle with 5 less hp / you need to defeat a 5/5 archer and your remaining hp carries over to the next fight / etc.) (Defending player pays for these buffs, either one time, or replacing them after triggered)

If you hit a dead-end, certain traps can trigger a second time on the way back to the next deck.

Just an idea.
(after reading your post above, completely agree - great idea. I don't know about skipping decks, but I think we are on the same wave-length)

majin
09-25-2013, 10:42 AM
http://i1.17173.itc.cn/2009/esports/...2231141632.jpg


fixed link http://i1.17173.itc.cn/2009/esports/2009/08/22/20090822231141632.jpg

keldrin
09-25-2013, 11:00 PM
It's been mentioned that mercenaries live at our keep.
But, doesn't that make exclusive powerful mercenaries, that much more important to have, if your keep is going to be defended by them? And won't that incite more complaints about them?
(gwaer pointed out there was nothing official saying this. So, Ignore please)

I just keep thinking of the mechanic of defending/raiding another guild in MUDDs.

Have the ability to either step into a mercenary defending my keep, or jump into the battle in addition to my defenders.....
I do like the idea of being able to play the defender, if I'm online when my keep is attacked.

Sholynyk
09-26-2013, 07:18 AM
Thanks. I thought it would add more people eagerly pouring time (and gold) into the keep portion of the game. The reason I wanted the alternative routs available is because it would add in a slightly different strategic twist to the game. forcing the attacking player to think "do i want to risk taking out the buffs by fighting more decks with the potential of losing there, or do i want to go straight for the dungeon boss and go for broke right off the bat and settle this" That way they are forced to consider between fighting more decks which could potentially be counters to their deck, time constraints (do they have enough time before work/making dinner to defeat all of the bonus's), and confidence in their own deck.

(by skipping decks i meant avoiding them depending on what route you take. + if the dungeon creator is lame he could just make everything in one straight line. . if he really wanted to, however the incentive for that would be negated by the fact that then all of the bonus's would be defeated by the time he got tot he boss deck)

To add an additional gold sink I think that once your keep is defeated (not each bonus) you should have to pay a small fee to rebuild them (not nearly as much as purchasing them in the first place, maybe 10% of initial cost?)