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View Full Version : A better way to "fix" manna screw



Turtlewing
06-04-2013, 07:00 PM
It seems to me like everyone who wants to fix the "manna screw" issue wants to make drastic changes to the reasource system to do it. Changes that would have some fairly harsh consequences. So I thought I'd purpose a gentler idea a champion ability that would solve the problem using the existing mechanics.

[1 charge] skip your draw step: search your deck for a basic reasourse card and put it into your hand.

This effect allows you to force draw a reasourse, however it costs you charge, and doesn't grant extra card advantage, nor accelerate your curve. It also requires you play whatever champion has this ability which allows further trade offs if nesesary for balance.

Honestly I'd half expect there was already a class that had this as an option and we just haven't been told about it.

tgm0112
06-04-2013, 07:18 PM
This is a pretty neat idea. Perhaps a secondary ability available to all champions?

I would price it at two charges, though, so as not to motivate decks with minimal resources (~10), thus also forcing a drastic shift in deck composition.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:18 PM
Ehhh...that could be gamed a bit to just run around 10 resources instead of 20-25. You just need 1 resource or charge, and you can draw a resource whenever you needed it.

Ninja'd!

Making it cost 2 probably would still be pretty good...

Lazybum
06-04-2013, 07:21 PM
Ehhh...that could be gamed a bit to just run around 10 resources instead of 20-25. You just need 1 resource or charge, and you can draw a resource whenever you needed it.

Ninja'd!

Making it cost 2 probably would still be pretty good...

this is very true can be abused way too easily, even if you capped it so it didnt work once you had so much in play. perhaps a cap at 2 uses would cut back on the abuse

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 07:24 PM
Oh, I got an idea.

Make it cost 1 charge point more for each time you use it.

Lazybum
06-04-2013, 07:25 PM
really the cost on it dont stop it from being abused by people who are only running say 10 resources in a deck, a cap on uses would prob work better then a increasing use cost

Turtlewing
06-04-2013, 07:26 PM
Ehhh...that could be gamed a bit to just run around 10 resources instead of 20-25. You just need 1 resource or charge, and you can draw a resource whenever you needed it.

Ninja'd!

Making it cost 2 probably would still be pretty good...

Sure you could do that. But meanwhile your giving up the ability to have a more active charge power (by choosing this power). And running too lean will get you muligining away a lot of cards for the one reasorce you need to start the chain.

The ability is stolen from a magic card Elfhame Sanctuary (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23142)

[edit]
Thinking on it, at 2 charges it probably is still a good ability. Going much further than that and you start to miss the point. Which is: in exchange for choosing this champion you become immune to manna screw barring some other mistake on your part. The balancing factor then needs to be that other champions are good enough to make you want to choose them instead (which can be accomplished by making this champ's other abilities less useful if need be).

DeusPhasmatis
06-04-2013, 10:11 PM
I like the idea. As an alternate implementation: 1 charge, requires discarding a card, fetched shard doesn't generate a charge when played.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 10:15 PM
I like it if it's only on the one champion, not every champion (so this is it's only power). And I think 2 charges is necessary, otherwise it allows for some ridiculous combos with Spectral Lotus.

Hatts
06-04-2013, 10:18 PM
Cory had a similar idea that he mentioned in the geek all stars podcast (I think.) He called it rally and you were able to bring resources in some fashion to the top of your deck as a 1 time use.

In the end he said it was a horrible mechanic and an example as to why he leaves the design to others :D

DeusPhasmatis
06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
I like it if it's only on the one champion, not every champion (so this is it's only power). And I think 2 charges is necessary, otherwise it allows for some ridiculous combos with Spectral Lotus.

Spectral Lotus grants resources and threshold, but no charges.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 10:27 PM
Spectral Lotus grants resources and threshold, but no charges.

The biggest problem here is just Spectral Lotus can completely negate lack of card advantage.

Beastmaster
06-04-2013, 11:44 PM
Since its a digital game, why not just have a game option that generates a starting hand based on the ratio of resources in the deck

i.e. 20 resources/ 60 cards = 2 and 1/3 resources in the starting hand (1/3 chance at a 3rd resource)

offer both options in Beta and see which is more popular..

This eliminates decks with low resources like 10 from gamin the system using charge powers etc

KnowingCrow
06-05-2013, 01:35 AM
Semi-random hands really hurt the spirit of this being a card game. Completely screwing up deck design in the process. These are terrible ideas.

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:06 AM
The biggest problem here is just Spectral Lotus can completely negate lack of card advantage.

Its a PvE card and one you really dont want to blow every chance you get. Im going to run x4 in every deck and then pop incase of emergencies :D

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:08 AM
Honestly as much as I hate getting mana screw/flood, system is fine as is. 25 resources and healthy number of 1-2 drops, bonus if they can draw cards or fix mana.

Solution we are looking for is artifacts that cost 1, then can exhaust and sacrifice with 2 mana to find a basic resource and put it in play, but giving 0/1 mana instead (Similar to coming into play tapped)

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:12 AM
IDEA!!
LOL


Card that creates 10 resources and shuffles them into opponents deck. LMAO

larryhl
06-05-2013, 02:14 AM
IDEA!!
LOL


Card that creates 10 resources and shuffles them into opponents deck. LMAO

OMG, I'd run that as an automatic four-of. Try getting the cards you want now!

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:15 AM
OMG, I'd run that as an automatic four-of. Try getting the cards you want now!

I KNOW RIGHT :D

That was like my best idea in history!

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:20 AM
ORRRRR How about a card that creates 5 resources and shuffles into opponents with Escalation? :D

larryhl
06-05-2013, 02:22 AM
Even better =P

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:25 AM
Even better =P

Actually the 10 card one was like twice as strong lol. I was worried it was too powerful :D

larryhl
06-05-2013, 02:26 AM
Actually the 10 card one was like twice as strong lol. I was worried it was too powerful :D

Meh, Escalation has the chance to be generating 20 (!!!!) resources the third time it's cast. I'll gladly go for that lol.

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:32 AM
Meh, Escalation has the chance to be generating 20 (!!!!) resources the third time it's cast. I'll gladly go for that lol.


Yep. But the first cast is 50% weaker in strength. The 10 card one would probably be broken as balls lol.

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 02:33 AM
If we want to be really evil, have these resources give 0/1 (Come into play tapped) LOL

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 07:34 AM
I like the idea. As an alternate implementation: 1 charge, requires discarding a card, fetched shard doesn't generate a charge when played.
This misses the point. Which is to be usable when you aren't drawing resources. It costs one charge, which you get back when you play the resource, but if you keep using it you never accumulate more charges.

Discarding a card seems a bit harsh. I could go to 2 charges on the cost (meaning you can't use the power to keep on perfect curve without also drawing resources naturally), but even that seems unnecessary.


The biggest problem here is just Spectral Lotus can completely negate lack of card advantage.

No more so than it does anyway. The mechanic is that you don't draw whatever card you would have drawn because you tutored a resource. This puts you at the same place you would be if your top card had been that resource.


Since its a digital game, why not just have a game option that generates a starting hand based on the ratio of resources in the deck

i.e. 20 resources/ 60 cards = 2 and 1/3 resources in the starting hand (1/3 chance at a 3rd resource)

offer both options in Beta and see which is more popular..

This eliminates decks with low resources like 10 from gamin the system using charge powers etc

Because this is a terrible idea. It will force competitive players to build decks that take advantage of the shuffling algorithm, this means new players will be at a disadvantage and not understand why. Having a champion power that enables low manna decks when using that champion is a feature, having a game mechanic that requires all decks to optimize around the shuffler is a bug.

BohemianStalker
06-05-2013, 07:43 AM
Thanks but no thanks. I like playing my quick blood deck and having advantage over all of those mana heavy dependant decks ,-)

DeusPhasmatis
06-05-2013, 08:06 AM
This misses the point. Which is to be usable when you aren't drawing resources. It costs one charge, which you get back when you play the resource, but if you keep using it you never accumulate more charges.

Discarding a card seems a bit harsh. I could go to 2 charges on the cost (meaning you can't use the power to keep on perfect curve without also drawing resources naturally), but even that seems unnecessary.

The point was to create a 2 charge equivalent that can be used with only 1 charge. I'm wary of a pure 1 charge version because that lets you run a very resource light deck, as long as you mull into a starting resource. A straight 2 charge version, however, feels too slow for something that's supposed to fix mana screw.

Discarding a card is meant to replace skipping a draw. It's sightly more powerful, since it interacts with discard and graveyard effects, and lets the player choose which card to replace. It could shuffle into the library instead.

jai151
06-05-2013, 08:20 AM
The point was to create a 2 charge equivalent that can be used with only 1 charge. I'm wary of a pure 1 charge version because that lets you run a very resource light deck, as long as you mull into a starting resource. A straight 2 charge version, however, feels too slow for something that's supposed to fix mana screw.

Discarding a card is meant to replace skipping a draw. It's sightly more powerful, since it interacts with discard and graveyard effects, and lets the player choose which card to replace. It could shuffle into the library instead.

It's not just slightly more powerful, it's much more powerful. I can already see an inspire deck that would be broken with that effect.

TheWrathofShane
06-05-2013, 08:25 AM
Guys Hex has been in development for 2 years now, and they already had a big pow-wow and testing on this thing and decided on the current system.

What we will see is 1-2 cost cards designed to help with mana issues, like artifacts (common sense speculation)

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 08:48 AM
The point was to create a 2 charge equivalent that can be used with only 1 charge. I'm wary of a pure 1 charge version because that lets you run a very resource light deck, as long as you mull into a starting resource. A straight 2 charge version, however, feels too slow for something that's supposed to fix mana screw.

Discarding a card is meant to replace skipping a draw. It's sightly more powerful, since it interacts with discard and graveyard effects, and lets the player choose which card to replace. It could shuffle into the library instead.

Sorry I think I completely misread that whole description.

1 charge but the tutored resource doesn't charge you champ is probably OK. It's between the 1 charge version and the 2 charge version in pacing.

Skipping the draw is pretty important to keeping the power balanced. The idea is it replaces your card draw with a guaranteed resource draw (you pay the cost to override the random factor). If you don't skip your draw then using this power in conjunction with a lean resource deck grants card advantage. Discarding does a lot less to mitigate that than preventing the draw.

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 09:00 AM
Well, anyway, Cory already said they tried implementing this, but scrapped it.

Maybe we can exactly why this was a bad idea? I guess because people would spam it for the first 5-6 turns, and then not need resources for the rest of the game, making the charge powers pointless.

DeusPhasmatis
06-05-2013, 09:04 AM
That was a global charge power (i.e. every Champion had it) and was once per game. Part of the point of creating a dedicated champion is that they have to give up mid/late game charge benefits in exchange for early game resource smoothing.

MugenMusou
06-05-2013, 09:24 AM
It seems to me like everyone who wants to fix the "manna screw" issue wants to make drastic changes to the reasource system to do it. Changes that would have some fairly harsh consequences. So I thought I'd purpose a gentler idea a champion ability that would solve the problem using the existing mechanics.

[1 charge] skip your draw step: search your deck for a basic reasourse card and put it into your hand.

This effect allows you to force draw a reasourse, however it costs you charge, and doesn't grant extra card advantage, nor accelerate your curve. It also requires you play whatever champion has this ability which allows further trade offs if nesesary for balance.

Honestly I'd half expect there was already a class that had this as an option and we just haven't been told about it.

Not a bad idea. Especially setting the charge power to 1 you are guranteeing the ability is usable every single turn. Though having said that it does take away a little part of fun in a game in compensation to avoiding mana screw. No. I'm not talking about "it's fun to get luck of mana screw.." I really don't like the argument.

I'm talking about the fact that in order to fix mana screw, you have to lose your choice of champion. Looking at play videos, champion's ability are very specific such as the one created Shin'hare or Robot artifact. I think those are great.

But if we want to fix mana screw, we now have to use the above champion, so you lose the true selection of champion.

So I wonder if they can do it globally as if all champion has the ability. Perhaps to balance it out a little bid, maybe you can only use this ability every three turns or so. So yes. you will still get some degree of mana screw but at least it will be limited.

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 09:41 AM
Well, anyway, Cory already said they tried implementing this, but scrapped it.

Maybe we can exactly why this was a bad idea? I guess because people would spam it for the first 5-6 turns, and then not need resources for the rest of the game, making the charge powers pointless.

They probably decided it was over powered. I just read in another thread that the champion charge power is the only PvP effect a champion has (I was relying on other passives to balance out the strong charge power).

In light of that this ability would need to be more like:

[2 charge] void one card in your hand: the top card of your deck permanently becomes a basic resource card of your choice.

That way you have to give up card advantage, and can't use it to keep on a perfect curve. You could further weaken it by making the selection of which card to convert random rather than player's choice.

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 09:42 AM
No, I'm pretty they said it was terrible, not too strong.

They gave all champions Rally which put a resource card on the top of their deck.

saropatzi
06-05-2013, 09:43 AM
Not a bad idea. Especially setting the charge power to 1 you are guranteeing the ability is usable every single turn. Though having said that it does take away a little part of fun in a game in compensation to avoiding mana screw. No. I'm not talking about "it's fun to get luck of mana screw.." I really don't like the argument.

I'm talking about the fact that in order to fix mana screw, you have to lose your choice of champion. Looking at play videos, champion's ability are very specific such as the one created Shin'hare or Robot artifact. I think those are great.

But if we want to fix mana screw, we now have to use the above champion, so you lose the true selection of champion.

So I wonder if they can do it globally as if all champion has the ability. Perhaps to balance it out a little bid, maybe you can only use this ability every three turns or so. So yes. you will still get some degree of mana screw but at least it will be limited.

I don't dislike this idea if it can be safely implemented.

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 09:51 AM
No, I'm pretty they said it was terrible, not too strong.

They gave all champions Rally which put a resource card on the top of their deck.

That's a completely different effect then.

A one time "put a resource on top of your deck" is a lot weaker than the same power but usable repeatedly. Also making it global means there's less ability to use it to your advantage. Mostly it juts means your curve will crap out one higher than before.

EntropyBall
06-05-2013, 07:30 PM
I really wonder why Rally didn't work out. The idea presented by Turtlewing, or a close variant of it, seems like it would be a nice way to avoid mana screw, while also somewhat punishing a player who runs too few resources in his deck.