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View Full Version : Based on feedback from Scrolls, a concern for Hex's release



alpha5099
06-04-2013, 09:33 PM
I've been looking at Scrolls a bit since it entered open beta this week. I'm a bit wary of it right now, though I could still end up giving it a shot. One of the complaints that I've heard from several players so far (over in the Scrolls thread that's somewhere on this forum, on the Scrolls sub-reddit I look at) is that they find themselves regretting the pre-constructed decks that they selected. They thought that Energy or Order would be the playstyle for them (so far, I don't think I've seen anyone voicing regrets on choosing the deck for the remaining faction, Growth), and they end up not enjoying the decks they've ended up with. They can grind out a rather steep amount of in-game gold to get another deck, or cough up some money for the RM shard currency, or just grin and bear it.

It seems to me that this problem could very well crop up for Hex once it's entered its released state (or if there is an open beta later in the process). Non-backers are going to be joining the game, and they'll be be given one of the four starter decks. But what happens to these players if they discover that Orcs just aren't their thing? They won't even be able to buy more decks with in-game currency like in Scrolls, they'd have to buy other decks with platinum.

Will there be any sort of grace period, allowing new players to say, "You know what, I was wrong, I'm not enjoying this bunny deck, could I exchange it for that nifty dwarf deck?" I suppose the free-to-play model will mitigate some of this. If a Scrolls player regrets their chosen deck, they're presumably out twenty bucks. If a Hex player wants to try a different starter deck, they'll likely be able to just create a new account and switch to a new deck. Of course, with those free starters being non-tradeable, they wouldn't be able to get those cards onto the same account.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 09:35 PM
Free accounts, so they could just make a new account...

Also, it seems like the problem with Scrolls starter isn't that they don't like starter X because of the theme, they don't like it because it (the starter) ...sucks.

BlindMan
06-04-2013, 09:37 PM
Honestly I think you answered your own concern. If someone is on the fence, let them make an account, try one, and if it doesn't fit them, make a new account. You can't pool the cards so there is no risk of exploit. I'm sure everyone is better off if they end up getting into the game.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 09:38 PM
Free accounts, so they could just make a new account...

Also, it seems like the problem with Scrolls starter isn't that they don't like starter X because of the theme, they don't like it because it (the starter) ...sucks.

Suddenly happier that I didn't shell out $20 for the beta.

Mushroom_C1oud
06-04-2013, 09:42 PM
I paid the $20 for the beta. The game just isn't that much fun. I will test it out after each patch but to me Scrolls is just not a game I will be putting much time into.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 09:43 PM
What about having an additional tutorial for each starter deck that explains the play-style as you do it. Let the player do the tutorials as they please and then choose once they are happy. After that, no swapsies.

DeusPhasmatis
06-04-2013, 09:44 PM
Last I heard, the free account starter is different from the purchasable starter decks.

On the other hand, this may have an interesting solution via the Guild system: people could check-in one of each of the buyable starters, so that new players could test them out against guild members before spending money on one.

Clawdius
06-04-2013, 09:46 PM
What about having an additional tutorial for each starter deck that explains the play-style as you do it. Let the player do the tutorials as they please and then choose once they are happy. After that, no swapsies.

That's a pretty good idea, a sort of Try before you decide thing that could easily pull double duty as a tutorial section.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 09:50 PM
I like the tutorial game based on the deck you chose. There's a free flash TCG out there that did this, where each deck could be tutorial played vs an AI controlled deck before you settled on the deck you actually wanted to use.

Edit: that game is called Ederon.

djlowballer
06-04-2013, 10:10 PM
I liked the concept of the planeswalker format in MTGO to give players a big pool of cards to play with before going to the more challenging rooms. Hex could do better to actually make it a newbie format where players can't pay for additional cards.

RobHaven
06-04-2013, 10:14 PM
I don't understand why the decision has to be permanent? If the cards are account-bound, why not let the player switch out the starting deck at any given time? It doesn't change anything market-wise, and it let's the player experience each deck. If they like one, they can stick with it. Any swapped out deck would lose its experience, but that's on the player.

I just don't see any upside to cementing the player into their choice. Why force them to make a new account for a new deck? Just let them switch it out.

dodecapod
06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
Is this your first time playing a TCG? Because pre-constructed decks are always crap. They are for noobs to learn the game. There won't be a pre-constructed deck that can compete beyond noob stage.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 10:20 PM
I suspect each starter comes with a merc.

dodecapod
06-04-2013, 10:21 PM
What about having an additional tutorial for each starter deck that explains the play-style as you do it. Let the player do the tutorials as they please and then choose once they are happy. After that, no swapsies.


Great idea!

tgm0112
06-04-2013, 10:31 PM
It's clear that if people didn't like their free deck and hesitate to use money for another they can always make another account. The original intent of this thread is not my concern in posting this.


Non-backers are going to be joining the game, and they'll be be given one of the four starter decks.

Where did this info come from? As I understand, the most a KS backer can get is four starter decks on any given tier, but the fact that even when all four are part of a tier's reward package they still saw fit to include "(Your choice)" makes me think there will be more than that.

Don't get me wrong, it may just be that they want to account for people double-dipping in their favorite color, but I have come to expect at least five starter decks.

http://s12.postimg.org/uohcpal3x/image.jpg

Khazrakh
06-04-2013, 10:31 PM
Is this your first time playing a TCG? Because pre-constructed decks are always crap. They are for noobs to learn the game. There won't be a pre-constructed deck that can compete beyond noob stage.

True.
But still, I was shocked just how bad the Order Starter Deck is (and how much better the Growth deck plays my friend took). About half the cards in the deck a utterly useless and the deck as a whole just doesn't play out as you are told when choosing your Starter.

It's not a concern regarding Hex - you can just make another F2P account and try another deck if you don't like what you got. But regarding Scrolls - it realy was a downer for me. Played about 2-3 hours to find out that it's just not fun to me the way it is.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 10:34 PM
Don't get me wrong, it may just be that they want to account for people double-dipping in their favorite color, but I have come to expect at least five starter decks.

Isn't the Dragon starter the 5th one?


True.
But still, I was shocked just how bad the Order Starter Deck is (and how much better the Growth deck plays my friend took). About half the cards in the deck a utterly useless and the deck as a whole just doesn't play out as you are told when choosing your Starter.

This is exactly true. I also picked Order and am disappointed with it but I'm going to persist with it. My only options to change being: Pay $20 for another account, pay $5 each for the other precons, or grind 6000 gold each for the other precons. That's unfriendly design for a game that doesn't explain its intend well to begin with. My view on game design is that one should be able to approach it without having any exposure to it in the past, Scrolls failed in that regard in my opinion.

larryhl
06-04-2013, 10:36 PM
Those 4 starter decks that we can choose from have been said to be much better than the free starter that can be chosen when creating a new account. As such, those have cash values. The starters we're talking about here are completely different from the ones we can choose as part of our KS rewards.

At least, they should be.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 10:38 PM
Those 4 starter decks that we can choose from have been said to be much better than the free starter that can be chosen when creating a new account. As such, those have cash values. The starters we're talking about here are completely different from the ones we can choose as part of our KS rewards.

At least, they should be.

That's true. The free starter is not the same as the ones we get to choose from. The ones we choose from will sell for $10 each and allegedly be more powerful :)

dodecapod
06-04-2013, 10:44 PM
It's not a concern regarding Hex - you can just make another F2P account and try another deck if you don't like what you got. But regarding Scrolls - it realy was a downer for me. Played about 2-3 hours to find out that it's just not fun to me the way it is.

Yea, the F2P will really help hex here (but could def improve, as exemplified by a post here). Sucks that Scrolls ended up like that. Thank god I didn't give-in to the temptation, when that Scrolls thread was looming about this forums yesterday.

Grissnap
06-04-2013, 10:45 PM
That's true. The free starter is not the same as the ones we get to choose from. The ones we choose from will sell for $10 each and allegedly be more powerful :)

People keep saying that, but where does Crypto say that? I've been pretty diligent in reading everything Hex related, so I would love to see where the source of that info is.

Tyrfang
06-04-2013, 10:46 PM
People keep saying that, but where does Crypto say that? I've been pretty diligent in reading everything Hex related, so I would love to see where the source of that info is.

I do recall reading it somewhere, but I cannot remember where.

Grissnap
06-04-2013, 10:47 PM
Okay right after asking I just checked the FAQ thread on the forums and it was written there. They say its a bit more advanced, so who knows by how much.


Q:The web site for Hex indicates that new accounts will start with a starter and booster. I hope supporting through KS does not replace that.
A:The free to play game begins the player with one starter, these are specifically designed for a great new player experience, the starters that will be sold separately (and are offered as rewards on this Kickstarter are different and slightly more advanced), none of the rewards you receive thru Kickstarter will diminish what you would have received otherwise.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 10:48 PM
People keep saying that, but where does Crypto say that? I've been pretty diligent in reading everything Hex related, so I would love to see where the source of that info is.

I have read it or heard it in one of the GamesRader/IGN videos. I'll have a hunt for it tonight and try and find something more concrete for you :)

EDIT: You found it, ignore me xD

Cory_Jones
06-04-2013, 11:09 PM
Remember on the PVE side you will start collecting cards etc. quickly, so modifying you're deck will be an option, plus the auction house will offer the chance to grab cards easily

hoodieblanket
06-04-2013, 11:18 PM
wait i also read that when you create a free account you get a starter +2 boosters. that seems rather exploitable. there are bots on guildwars 2/steam and probably other MMO's where they could churn out 1000s of accounts a day. gaining tradeable cards / boosters

HyenaNipples
06-04-2013, 11:22 PM
It will be interesting to see how the game tries to lure out the PVE freebies into the paid PVP side of the game. I thought the obvious would be to give a limited amount of Plat Rewards to bait the hook.

For all of its failings, Duel of Champions does do this well: give enough 'real money' currency through PVE to kindle purchases. Of course, they have no trading system what-so-ever, so many of the exploit concerns raised by such a path are a non-issue for them.

TheDiv
06-04-2013, 11:23 PM
wait i also read that when you create a free account you get a starter +2 boosters. that seems rather exploitable. there are bots on guildwars 2/steam and probably other MMO's where they could churn out 1000s of accounts a day. gaining tradeable cards / boosters

If this is true, I'd assume those initial boosters would fall under the same boat as the starter in that any cards from it would be untradeable. That would prevent exploitation :)

TheWrathofShane
06-04-2013, 11:25 PM
Scrolls cost 20 dollars to enter, hex is free. Now if you do not like your starter deck on hex that might be an issue, but you can always make a few free accounts before deciding on which 10 dollar starter deck. I think most people on the forums have kickstarted, so we are pretty much made in the shade for awhile :D

panzer
06-05-2013, 12:02 AM
In an effort to fill the HEX void. I was about to give this a try. Thanks for saving me the time and money. Thankfully I won't have this problem with HEX.

larryhl
06-05-2013, 12:40 AM
wait i also read that when you create a free account you get a starter +2 boosters. that seems rather exploitable. there are bots on guildwars 2/steam and probably other MMO's where they could churn out 1000s of accounts a day. gaining tradeable cards / boosters

Where did you read this?

Khazrakh
06-05-2013, 12:43 AM
In an effort to fill the HEX void. I was about to give this a try. Thanks for saving me the time and money. Thankfully I won't have this problem with HEX.

If you need to kill some time you might want to give Duel of Champions a try. It's the Might&Magic TCG and while it's only a TCG on wheels and somewhat unbalanced in the top tier I did enjoy it for quite some time.

TZHX
06-05-2013, 01:40 AM
The growth deck is awesome because it is based around puppies.

Other than that, my impression of the game as a whole is that it sucks.

Grauwart
06-05-2013, 02:01 AM
At the time the game is officially open for non KS, there will be plenty of guides and videos of every deck around. Or you just go through the wiki or a card list. Besides that and as Cory stated just in this very thread: You will get new cards for free in pve to change your deck. And even if you didnt read, cared or looked around, there will be millions of set1 KS-cards floating around for next to nothing (commons of course). So if you got your 1st pve gold, just trade it in the auction house for the stuff you want (again not the best of the best but probably enough to build upon).

warstriker
06-05-2013, 02:58 AM
I think the easiest and smartest solution for this problem is that you can trade your starter deck for any other standard starter deck. The only drawback is that you would lose any xp you gained with the cards in the starter deck you traded in.

BohemianStalker
06-05-2013, 05:23 AM
Just give new players more - ALL- basic starting decks .

Making new account just so you can choose different deck is a hassle not belonging in 2013.

MrSeriousBsns
06-05-2013, 05:54 AM
Remember on the PVE side you will start collecting cards etc. quickly, so modifying your deck will be an option, plus the auction house will offer the chance to grab cards easily

I think that this will be the major difference when HEX at releases, which will make the "buyers remorse" issue much less of a problem.

Comparatively, Scrolls released with a little over 100 cards which means they have to gate their content pretty hard or else people will quickly run out of things to do. HEX will have much much more content than Scrolls will ever have, so slowing people down from accumulating cards isn't a priority.

tgm0112
06-05-2013, 06:09 AM
Isn't the Dragon starter the 5th one?

Actually, no. That was exclusive to the stretch goals so not one we could ever have chosen.

If they say we get four starter decks for our pledge and then go out of their way to specify (Your Choice), I'm thinking there's an actual choice to be had. Like I said, it may involve the ability to double-pick one you really like or them covering their asses in case the 5th+ is still being worked on and might not see the release date, but I doubt it.

Fireblast
06-05-2013, 06:47 AM
Is this your first time playing a TCG? Because pre-constructed decks are always crap. They are for noobs to learn the game. There won't be a pre-constructed deck that can compete beyond noob stage.

Having recently bought a Sorin vs Tibalt MtG deck to waste time with a friend, we had 10 very fun games using it.
(It's a preconstructed Duel deck)

Back to HEX, the Bunny swarm could be a starter deck since all cards are mostly commons and uncommons, it seems efficient and fun to play (from the videos we've seen so far)

~

Fireblast
06-05-2013, 06:49 AM
Actually, no. That was exclusive to the stretch goals so not one we could ever have chosen.

If they say we get four starter decks for our pledge and then go out of their way to specify (Your Choice), I'm thinking there's an actual choice to be had. Like I said, it may involve the ability to double-pick one you really like or them covering their asses in case the 5th+ is still being worked on and might not see the release date, but I doubt it.

My understanding is that there is one FREE Starter (only one to play the tutorial and the first quests) and 4 bought starters for each race (Orc, Human, Dwarf, Bunnies)

The Dragon's Blood is more a pre-constructed deck than a starter.

~

alpha5099
06-05-2013, 02:34 PM
I asked through Kickstarter, and the email response I received said that there would be four starters. Obviously the Dragon's Blood deck wasn't announced yet then. I don't think there's been much indication on how the free starters work other than that answer in the FAQ thread. Is there just the one free starter, or do you still get an option of one of the four Set One races? We'll have to wait and see.


Hello alpha5099,

We are currently planning on four starters, each centering around one of the featured races.

Thanks.

KeplerVerge
06-05-2013, 10:57 PM
Scrolls being crap just makes Hex look that much better. Granted Scrolls is in beta(that you have to pay for...), but Crypto explicitly said their game was not designed as the quick "tcg" cash-in model and is a true tcg built for pro play balance and it excludes the nickel and dime model of standard f2p.

Erebus
06-05-2013, 11:24 PM
@Mark Fadden Hi Mark, the free to play game begins the player with one starter, these are specifically designed for a great new player experience, the starters that will be sold separately (and are offered as rewards on this Kickstarter are different and slightly more advanced), none of the rewards you receive thru Kickstarter will diminish what you would have received otherwise.

http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/546828179/comments

The free starter is NOT one of the 4 racial premades. It's extremely basic.

alpha5099
06-05-2013, 11:31 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/546828179/comments

The free starter is NOT one of the 4 racial premades. It's extremely basic.

I'm not sure that follows from what you quoted. That answer said that the KS Starters would be "slightly more advanced," which could mean just about anything. That certainly doesn't mean that the free Starter is "extremely basic," and it also doesn't mean that there is just one starter. There could still be a choice of choosing a starter from one of the four Set One races.

In fact, reading the quote now, I'm unsure exactly what it is that will be "different and slightly more advanced." It's not a particularly well written response; that parenthetical is a fracking mess. Depending on what is meant, it could be that as backers we're receiving a slightly different Starter than the store-bought Starters.

larryhl
06-05-2013, 11:54 PM
It basically means the starters we receive as rewards are carbon copies of the ones that can be bought for money from the in-game store. It also means that they're not the same as the starter you get to choose for free (why would anyone pay $10 for something they can get for free by creating another account?)

alpha5099
06-06-2013, 12:15 AM
It basically means the starters we receive as rewards are carbon copies of the ones that can be bought for money from the in-game store. It also means that they're not the same as the starter you get to choose for free (why would anyone pay $10 for something they can get for free by creating another account?)

Because the free starters are non-tradeable, and they want all those cards on one account?