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View Full Version : What happened? You missed Black Tiger/Lotus questions.



Xenavire
06-05-2013, 12:33 PM
I asked this in the twitch stream yesterday, and William said you would be discussing the questions people had about Black Tiger and Spectral lotus - but the very question he responded to was forgotten!

I don't know how to feel - I am happy some other people got their questions answered, but I feel pretty bad I got promised an answer and it never came.

The question: Can we save Black Tigers up and use them in PvE decks instead of refunding them for Spectral lotus cards, and how does the threshold work on the Spectral Lotus (is it permanent, or does it fade at the end of turn, can you combine any number of colours or is it a single colour x3, etc).

I can't see why that is any less important than the void society question.

larryhl
06-05-2013, 12:36 PM
Yeah...I thought this was the question about Black Tigers/Spectral Lotuses as well. The one that he answered again in the update had been answered already.

Gwaer
06-05-2013, 12:38 PM
The answer to your question is yes, though. Black tiger is a valid card to have in your deck, you can run 4 of them if you want, then turn all your lotus's to more tigers and have 8 on the board, when you next make your deck though you'll only be able to run 4 again.

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 12:48 PM
The answer to your question is yes, though. Black tiger is a valid card to have in your deck, you can run 4 of them if you want, then turn all your lotus's to more tigers and have 8 on the board, when you next make your deck though you'll only be able to run 4 again.

Even if that happens to be true, thats only half the total question, and theres reason to believe we won't be able to use the tigers in deckbuilding (they are grey in rarity, and are non-artifact colourless troops, theres a chance that they will only be used to trade in for more lotus's).

Erebus
06-05-2013, 12:51 PM
I believe they mentioned the Black Tigers are available for deck building when they told us about the card. The Tiger's original color was not grey I believe, people pointed it was in error and got it changed.

They said specifically during the Stream that Spectral Lotus allowed you to choose which threshold you gained. As far as permanent or temporary, the text doesn't day anything about temporary, but they haven't answered this question specifically yet.

Fireblast
06-05-2013, 12:51 PM
Kyle said early during the KS that the tiger shouldn't be Grey, or that it was a special case, it's definitely a card you can use for deckbuilding.
As for the Threshold from Lotus, you choose one of the 5 shards, you get 3 of that threshold and so far all thresholds are permanent (artifact for 1 in the stream that added a threshold)

~

Mike411
06-05-2013, 12:55 PM
What do you mean by refunding black tigers for lotus cards? I thought once they were black tigers, you couldn't do much with them at all if you had extras (besides auction house)

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 12:56 PM
4 black tigers can be changed into a lotus, but you need a garden to do it.

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 01:01 PM
I have been reading on the forums and watching all the updates, and never saw that about black tigers and deckbuilding (unless it was in the kickstarter comments). I would be very interested to see that if it is true, but I still don't see why the question has to be ignored if it has already been answered (especially when the other questions had both been answered before.)

And every instance of the tiger I see has been grey - I am going to go re-check them all now to make sure.

And I watched the stream, I don't remember them mentioning the lotus and threshold at all, can you tell me if it was early or late in the stream so I can go watch it? And The permanent or not question is still up in the air, unless I missed something else.

Daer
06-05-2013, 01:10 PM
Grey just means it was generated by another card, it doesn't automatically disqualify it from deckbuilding. I think it was answered that the threshold was permanent in the stream chat.

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 01:14 PM
Grey just means it was generated by another card, it doesn't automatically disqualify it from deckbuilding. I think it was answered that the threshold was permanent in the stream chat.

I wasn't paying attention to the stream chat the whole time, but I did see a thread made by someone who did, and there was no mention of it in said thread. The person might have missed it, but the stream chats only hold so many comments before they are lost - I will take your word for it.

And grey is transformed cards/created/boss only/dungeon only/etc cards - it gives the impression that they are not able to be used in deckbuilding, but ARE able to be used by other means. If you have some official source I would love to see it - these are about the only questions I need answering other than Paypal for T-shirts.

ForgedSol
06-05-2013, 01:14 PM
4 black tigers can be changed into a lotus, but you need a garden to do it.

Oh interesting. I didn't know about that last bit, the requirement to have a garden to do it. That bumps up the value of the gardens... but since tigers can't be turned into crafting materials (at least that's how I understood today's update), that just means a lot of tigers on the market as well as lotuses.

RobHaven
06-05-2013, 01:16 PM
that just means a lot of tigers on the market as well as lotuses.

I was definitely disappointed when I saw that you could recycle the Tigers back into a Lotus. For the purposes of scarcity, I was really hoping that a Lotus was truly "one and done."

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 01:17 PM
I was definitely disappointed when I saw that you could recycle the Tigers back into a Lotus. For the purposes of scarcity, I was really hoping that a Lotus was truly "one and done."

You still need the garden to turn the tigers into a lotus.

It just means you get 1.25 lotuses a day instead of 1.

RobHaven
06-05-2013, 01:21 PM
You still need the garden to turn the tigers into a lotus.

It just means you get 1.25 lotuses a day instead of 1.

A 25% increase in [potential] lotus production across thousands of users could have a massive impact on the long-term value of the Lotus.

Miwa
06-05-2013, 02:26 PM
It's more than 1.25, it's more like 1.33 isn't it? Repeating series and such...

darkbreaker
06-05-2013, 02:43 PM
You still need the garden to turn the tigers into a lotus.

It just means you get 1.25 lotuses a day instead of 1.

To keep up the 1.25 lotus/day the player would have to be wasting 4 of previous lotus, so no profit at all.

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 02:48 PM
To keep up the 1.25 lotus/day the player would have to be wasting 4 of previous lotus, so no profit at all.

Or buying tigers off the exchange.

Lochar
06-05-2013, 02:49 PM
Need to set up an auto trader. Trades 1 lotus for 5 Black Tigers.

darkbreaker
06-05-2013, 02:51 PM
Or buying tigers off the exchange.

I know but by buying tigers you could get [(N/4) + 1] lotus/day where N is the number of tigers you bought. Or it has a daily limit?

Madican
06-05-2013, 02:51 PM
Or buying tigers off the exchange.

From playing WoW, I can say that the price of four Black Tigers will about equal, or be slightly over, the price of one Lotus.

Miwa
06-05-2013, 02:55 PM
If 4 tigers are of a similar price to a lotus, then they will be a better value, since 4 tigers > 1 lotus. There's certainly space for arbitrage in there as the math-challenged will assume that 4 tigers exactly equals 1 lotus.

You'd have to buy stupid numbers of them though to gain ground, and hopefully their analytics are actually somewhat decent for catching botting.

*edit* Ignore my comment above, I'm the math challenged one now, since both the 4 tigers and the lotus both produce another tiger. :P

Which means the lotus will sell for more, because not everyone can use the tigers.

jaxsonbateman
06-05-2013, 02:56 PM
From playing WoW, I can say that the price of four Black Tigers will about equal, or be slightly over, the price of one Lotus.
What makes you say that?

Logically, I'd say they'd be equal to, or slightly under. For all intents and purposes they're equivalent (hence the equal side of things), but because you need a Garden to convert them back into a Lotus, they're less valuable than a Lotus, as less of the population can make good use of them.

All things being good though they should sell for pretty much the same price.

Madican
06-05-2013, 02:59 PM
What makes you say that?

Logically, I'd say they'd be equal to, or slightly under. For all intents and purposes they're equivalent (hence the equal side of things), but because you need a Garden to convert them back into a Lotus, they're less valuable than a Lotus, as less of the population can make good use of them.

All things being good though they should sell for pretty much the same price.

Because people will know what they're used for and will try to get as much gold for them as possible.

In WoW, for Enchanting, five of one material can make one of the next higher. This means each individual material is worth approximately 1/5 of the next-highest, barring fluctuations. They don't go cheaper because that lets the one able to make the conversion get more profit and they don't go higher because then it's better to just get the one material than try combining.

jaxsonbateman
06-05-2013, 03:09 PM
Yup. They should go for equivalent, I agree with that.

I'm just saying that if they do fluctuate one way, I'd imagine it'd be that 4x Black Tigers are cheaper than 1x Spectral Lotus, simply because those Tigers also need a Garden in order to be useful, which means that they'll be less useful to the average player than a Spectral Lotus itself.

Lochar
06-05-2013, 03:10 PM
The Tigers aren't that bad by themselves though. 3 resource, 0 threshold for a 3/1 with draw a card.

jaxsonbateman
06-05-2013, 03:12 PM
Did we confirm if you can include them in a deck normally though? I've missed responses but last I checked it was still up in the air due to their 'token/grey' rarity.

Moondancer
06-05-2013, 03:14 PM
Did we confirm if you can include them in a deck normally though? I've missed responses but last I checked it was still up in the air due to their 'token/grey' rarity.

WHy would it be up in the air? if its a card in your collection you will be able to put it in decks.

jaxsonbateman
06-05-2013, 03:18 PM
Why would it be up in the air?
The rarity, and that it's the only non-artifact non-threshold troop. While I wouldn't be surprised if you could, I wouldn't say it's 100% certain at this point. As Lochar mentioned a 3/1 for 3 with no threshold and card draw isn't just pretty good, it's *really* good.

Turtlewing
06-05-2013, 03:20 PM
From playing WoW, I can say that the price of four Black Tigers will about equal, or be slightly over, the price of one Lotus.

No it won't if that were true you would buy the lotus instead.

the price of the tiger is bounded by the demand for them as lotus materials and the fact that converting a lotus is the superior way to get a tiger (pays for itself).

Thus tigers will vary between .25 and 1 x the cost of a lotus. Depending on demand for tigers as anything other than materials to make another lotus.

jaxsonbateman
06-05-2013, 03:26 PM
No it won't if that were true you would buy the lotus instead.

the price of the tiger is bounded by the demand for them as loth materials and the fact that converting a lotus is the superior way to get a tiger.

Thus tigers will vary between .25 and 1 x the cost of a lotus. Depending on demand for tigers as anything other than materials to make another lotus.
Tigers can't be used for crafting materials. And I wouldn't exactly say that burning a Spectral Lotus is the better way of getting a Black Tiger when you can buy one on the AH instead, thus saving a precious Lotus for an encounter where you actually need it.

I will say though that I ignored their ability to be used just as a creature though (assuming they're allowed in decks), which could make them cost slightly more than 0.25 of the cost of a Lotus. I couldn't imagine it being significantly higher - but slightly more.

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 03:28 PM
The rarity, and that it's the only non-artifact non-threshold troop. While I wouldn't be surprised if you could, I wouldn't say it's 100% certain at this point. As Lochar mentioned a 3/1 for 3 with no threshold and card draw isn't just pretty good, it's *really* good.

This is basically why I made the thread - fishing for a definitve answer to this, and the lotus threshold thing. Those things will be factors in the overall worth, and major factors in my deckbuilding.

Lochar
06-05-2013, 03:32 PM
I'm still curious to find out about Spectral Lotuses in the Keep and whether the AI will burn them. And if they do, do they draw more Lotuses out of your library to rebuild the deck the way you set it up.

Sanik
06-05-2013, 03:33 PM
To clarify, the Black Tiger can be reused for deck-building after they are transformed from a lotus. The grey rarity on this card is incorrect.

BossHoss
06-05-2013, 03:34 PM
This is basically why I made the thread - fishing for a definitve answer to this, and the lotus threshold thing. Those things will be factors in the overall worth, and major factors in my deckbuilding.




Resources have [x/y] with X = to mana gained. Is Y = to max mana or champion charge
- ex. Spectral Lotus: + [3/0], this grants 3 mana and 0 what?

Can you have more than max mana?
- ex. Can spectral lotus be played turn 1 to gain 3 mana or can you never go above your max?

Is the 3 threshold gained from the Lotus permanent and can it be 3 different threshold?
- ex. 1 diamond 1 ruby and 1 blood all done on turn 1?

Official PM CZE responses

The [X/Y] for resources are [Current Available Resources/Amount of Resources you will have at the beginning of your turn]

Yes, you can have more than your max mana, the Shin'hare Ritualist does this.

The Lotus gives you 3 threshold of the same type.

^^ ^^ They never did confirm if it was permanent though, but judging by the card it does not say until end of turn so I am leaning towards permanent

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 03:35 PM
To clarify, the Black Tiger can be reused for deck-building after they are transformed from a lotus. The grey rarity on this card is incorrect.

Awesome news! Now could you help with the threshold question? Then we are nicely set with all the info we need I think... Unless someone else has a crazy question?

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 03:36 PM
Resources have [x/y] with X = to mana gained. Is Y = to max mana or champion charge
- ex. Spectral Lotus: + [3/0], this grants 3 mana and 0 what?

Can you have more than max mana?
- ex. Can spectral lotus be played turn 1 to gain 3 mana or can you never go above your max?

Is the 3 threshold gained from the Lotus permanent and can it be 3 different threshold?
- ex. 1 diamond 1 ruby and 1 blood all done on turn 1?

Official PM CZE responses

The [X/Y] for resources are [Current Available Resources/Amount of Resources you will have at the beginning of your turn]

Yes, you can have more than your max mana, the Shin'hare Ritualist does this.

The Lotus gives you 3 threshold of the same type.

^^ ^^ They never did confirm if it was permanent though, but judging by the card it does not say until end of turn so I am leaning towards permanent

The permanent thing I think was the only thing left to answer (and its nice to have all this info in one post, THANKS its a huge help.)

Lochar
06-05-2013, 03:37 PM
To clarify, the Black Tiger can be reused for deck-building after they are transformed from a lotus. The grey rarity on this card is incorrect.

You guys really need to put a Thank You button on posts for things like this. Can you confirm what the Keep will do with Lotuses too? :)

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 03:42 PM
They really need to know how much every response they give means to us... I mean the only thing we can do is ask questions, and stay at this exact emotional level until September-ish. The responses are truly mana from heaven.

larryhl
06-05-2013, 04:40 PM
Judging by the way the artifacts that granted a THRESHOLD on coming into play from the stream yesterday, yes, thresholds are permanent.

Gwaer
06-05-2013, 04:44 PM
The answer to your question is yes, though. Black tiger is a valid card to have in your deck, you can run 4 of them if you want, then turn all your lotus's to more tigers and have 8 on the board, when you next make your deck though you'll only be able to run 4 again.

/threaded this post in the third response. BTW. =)

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 06:39 PM
It isn't a /thread if you only answer half the question!

But an official word on it proves it without doubt. The threshold thing bugs me, it seems permanent, and has other examples to work off as proof, but it sounds like it should be temporary (like the mana... Which is something I am wondering about... If you have 4/2 mana at the end of your turn, will it persist through your opponents turn? Because the answer on our maximum mana being refreshed each turn/upkeep makes me wonder.)