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View Full Version : Remove Basic Lands completely and change Resource into what Hearthstone has?



Yasi
06-05-2013, 05:30 PM
I don't see why not. Really, who draw a land and think to themselves that they will never play it? Everyone wants 1 resource a turn and there's no more chance involved. It's also fair in the sense that both players get exactly what they need. Could even let you choose whatever color resource you want each turn if you're into that. Hex will also be more fast pace, spectating a game wont end up being a chore, and will further Hex in eSport domination. I think the simplicity of how Resource is handled in Hearthstone compared to Hex will be a make-it-or-break-it for most players. It's a win-win situation this way.

It's also worth noting that at the end of the day, people are going to find something to complain over. You can't really please everyone. That's why having it similar to how Hearthstone does it will make people have one less thing to complain about. Unless people like chances/unfair games, then they could either try buying a ton of boosters as a hobby.

Talreth
06-05-2013, 05:33 PM
I don't see why not. Really, who draw a land and think to themselves that they will never play it? Everyone wants 1 resource a turn and there's no more chance involved. It's also fair in the sense that both players get exactly what they need. Could even let you choose whatever color resource you want each turn if you're into that. Hex will also be more fast pace, spectating a game wont end up being a chore, and will further Hex in eSport domination. I think the simplicity of how Resource is handled in Hearthstone compared to Hex will be a make-it-or-break-it for most players. It's a win-win situation this way.


I actually think that you should get one resource a turn but also have the chance to play souped up resources that can do cool things because who doesnt want to play their sick 12cost creature on turn 7

Yasi
06-05-2013, 05:35 PM
I actually think that you should get one resource a turn but also have the chance to play souped up resources that can do cool things because who doesnt want to play their sick 12cost creature on turn 7

I think Cryptozoic call those "Constants" except it's not a resource and it cost resources.

Talreth
06-05-2013, 05:38 PM
I think Cryptozoic call those "Constants" except it's not a resource and it cost resources.

Nah it shouldn't cost resources but you can only play one a turn. But it does something like Tap: There is no threshold requirement on the next card. Because all people really want to do is play their cards and threshold inhibits that.

Yasi
06-05-2013, 05:40 PM
Nah it shouldn't cost resources but you can only play one a turn. But it does something like Tap: There is no threshold requirement on the next card. Because all people really want to do is play their cards and threshold inhibits that.

That is a really cool idea. If we change that card into an artifact, perhaps the Inspiration Engine card will be less shitty because it allows you the offchance of playing another artifact pseudo-resource.

Talreth
06-05-2013, 05:42 PM
That is a really cool idea. If we change that card into an artifact, perhaps the Inspiration Engine card will be less shitty because it allows you the offchance of playing another artifact pseudo-resource.

I agree, because as it is, the lore behind the inspiration engine bugs me. Like who keeps having all these shitty ideas it comes up with?

DjiN
06-05-2013, 05:42 PM
I refuse to read any more of your forum posts until you change your font. Hurts my eyes...

Talreth
06-05-2013, 05:44 PM
I refuse to read any more of your forum posts until you change your font. Hurts my eyes...

Wouldn't they be hurt by just looking at it even if you didn't read it

Lazybum
06-05-2013, 05:44 PM
meh i like the resource style like mtg has

DjiN
06-05-2013, 05:44 PM
Wouldn't they be hurt by just looking at it even if you didn't read it

Yes, but reading them is so much worse.

Talreth
06-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Yes, but reading them is so much worse.

Doesn't bother me :d

Yasi
06-05-2013, 05:49 PM
I refuse to read any more of your forum posts until you change your font. Hurts my eyes...

I can change the color. I tried making it darker so others can see better. I can try the color red LIKE THECOLOR OF YOUR BLOOD ON MY FORK or perhaps blue.

SealFate
06-05-2013, 06:15 PM
If resources were like Hearthstone then opening hand size would have to be reduced, which takes away from planning ahead. This would void the colour system as well. I am a wowtcg player and enjoy the decision making required to resource a face down card when you haven't drawn a quest or location. I also like the deck building skill required in mixing colours in a colour system - but that requires resource colours, which getting another way outside of random draw from deck would viod the purpose of the colour system.

mmimzie
06-05-2013, 06:47 PM
I can change the color. I tried making it darker so others can see better. I can try the color red LIKE THECOLOR OF YOUR BLOOD ON MY FORK or perhaps blue.

lol your so bitter. I both like and dislike this..... keep it up..... meany...

DjiN
06-05-2013, 06:56 PM
Hanoi seems to be a bad place.

Vithe
06-05-2013, 06:57 PM
Getting one resource every turn is boring. There is a certain excitement you get when you need that one more resource and boom you draw it. To me having to put resources in your deck not only opens up a whole new strategy in deck making when it comes to the future (dual lands/shock lands/etc...) but it adds excitement to the game.

Getting a guaranteed resource every turn is boring. If HEX was like that I probably wouldn't have backed it.

Xenavire
06-05-2013, 06:58 PM
Seriously. That sounds like a threat, where is the limit before bans are handed down?

KaosSoul
06-05-2013, 07:04 PM
leave ressource per turn to crapp ipads tcgs lol, keep the real deal and learn to play

Yasi
06-05-2013, 07:24 PM
Getting one resource every turn is boring. There is a certain excitement you get when you need that one more resource and boom you draw it. To me having to put resources in your deck not only opens up a whole new strategy in deck making when it comes to the future (dual lands/shock lands/etc...) but it adds excitement to the game.
Watching the final match of a tournament where both players only draw lands or no land at all is extremely boring. It open up a whole new strategy because the minimum amount of cards you could have in your deck was 60. Just change it to 40 or something to account for the lands. Changes can be made to the hand size as well. Threshold can be kept also.


leave ressource per turn to crapp ipads tcgs lol, keep the real deal and learn to play
Learn to play with no basic land then.

ForgedSol
06-05-2013, 07:51 PM
In his Yasi way, Yasi is making a good point making a parody thread of the numerous threads that are calling for the WoWTCG resource system. If you want to avoid mana screw by using the WoWTCG system, why not the Hearthstone system instead? What is it about the Hearthstone system that prevents mana screw is less/more appealing than the WoWTCG system that prevents mana screw?

LordRaven
06-05-2013, 08:17 PM
I feel like knowing 100% for sure that you are going to gain a resource every turn takes a lot of strategy out of deckbuilding. Spectating would actually get boring when every deck just became a straight up race to 20 damage on a perfect resource curve.

ForgedSol
06-05-2013, 08:26 PM
But what makes people call out for wanting the wowtcg system and not the hearthstone system if mana screw is the concern? Is it just because we have a lot of wowtcg fans (as well as mtg fans) here on the forums and we are all just fighting for what we as a whole are used to? Both systems take care of mana screw quite nicely.

Mavian
06-05-2013, 08:27 PM
Nah, resource systems that require decisions are pretty much required for any high level play, else it all comes down to who has the better curve and draw. Not to mention the ability to bluff by keeping resources in hand when you don't need to put them down to make opponents think you have an instant or a counter.

Pwn1nP3nquin
06-05-2013, 09:13 PM
I agree with some of the others. The resource system should stay as is. It requires more thought to go into deck building (which makes it feel more fun) and provides greater deck variety, you can plan different strategies around using less or more resources in certain decks, you create your own mana curves, and the excitement factor created by uncertainty of what's to come. Just to name a few of the positives.

funktion
06-05-2013, 09:18 PM
Yasi, you're my hero. Please pledge producer, call Cory up, and insist that they just scrap the plans to make this game and that they go play hearthstone. We'll all just be much better off if we play hearthstone instead.

caffn8d
06-05-2013, 09:23 PM
Good to see some folks still playing Batman to The Joker.

yovalord
06-05-2013, 09:29 PM
If they had the WoW TCG system, i guarantee there would be far more call outs for the MTG resource system. Like its been said countless times, people are going to complain no matter what system is in play. MTG has just been by far the most successful TCG in existance, so they are sticking to what has worked.

Joolz
06-05-2013, 09:32 PM
Didn't you "quit"?

MugenMusou
06-05-2013, 09:48 PM
I don't know if you read my other thread, but since you have commented I assumed you did.

The magic's leader designer's one of five point were actually "loser can have a place to vent/blame."

I'm not saying your approach is bad, and in fact may mobile TCG does that. Personally, I prefer real TCG at this point. Without resource card, it feels like the experience is lacking. Yes. when there are only basic card this may seem slightly less obvious. But having the dedicated resource card type allows future expansion. Needless to say, already revealed card that have their stat boost based on the number of threshold etc.

After reading couple Magic articles, I am now a bit more convinced with resource card system that HEX decided to use. If you haven't I recommend reading them.

Willzyx
06-05-2013, 10:04 PM
Changing the way resources work at this stage of designing the game would cause massive imbalance and require an almost complete overhaul of the first set.

So, no.

RobHaven
06-06-2013, 05:25 AM
First off, hats off to Talreth for properly playing the game. At least, I think you were. If you weren't, please don't EVER consider game design as an occupation.


Seriously. That sounds like a threat, where is the limit before bans are handed down?

I'm not intelligent enough to articulate a response to this that doesn't involve heavy use of profanity or legitimate threats, so I'll just leave it at this: You are my least favorite person on these forums.

Yasi
06-06-2013, 05:49 AM
Nobody should care how you guys feel about the resource system. Give a good reason as to why one is better than the other, otherwise, you're just talking to a brick wall or me.


Getting one resource every turn is boring. There is a certain excitement you get when you need that one more resource and boom you draw it. To me having to put resources in your deck not only opens up a whole new strategy in deck making when it comes to the future (dual lands/shock lands/etc...) but it adds excitement to the game.
Getting no resource every turn is also boring.


I feel like knowing 100% for sure that you are going to gain a resource every turn takes a lot of strategy out of deckbuilding. Spectating would actually get boring when every deck just became a straight up race to 20 damage on a perfect resource curve.
It goes both ways.


Not to mention the ability to bluff by keeping resources in hand when you don't need to put them down to make opponents think you have an instant or a counter.
Bravo, the first real argument.


I agree with some of the others. The resource system should stay as is. It requires more thought to go into deck building (which makes it feel more fun) and provides greater deck variety, you can plan different strategies around using less or more resources in certain decks, you create your own mana curves, and the excitement factor created by uncertainty of what's to come. Just to name a few of the positives.
Nobody care if you agree with "some" of the others though, sadly. I agree that it can possibility provide a whole variety of strategies when junk cards are added in to make your deck bigger.


If they had the WoW TCG system, i guarantee there would be far more call outs for the MTG resource system. Like its been said countless times, people are going to complain no matter what system is in play. MTG has just been by far the most successful TCG in existance, so they are sticking to what has worked.Huh?


I'm not saying your approach is bad, and in fact may mobile TCG does that. Personally, I prefer real TCG at this point. Without resource card, it feels like the experience is lacking. Yes. when there are only basic card this may seem slightly less obvious. But having the dedicated resource card type allows future expansion. Needless to say, already revealed card that have their stat boost based on the number of threshold etc.



Changing the way resources work at this stage of designing the game would cause massive imbalance and require an almost complete overhaul of the first set.
Absolutely.

It doesn't even have to be the way Hearthstone has it...maybe keep the basic lands, but make it so your Champion gain 1 charge power each turn automatically(the whole point of charging up...) and including every time you play a land? This way Cryptozoic can just redo the Champions abilities to reflect the charges. So if you draw more land than you need to compare to your opponent then you'll get the benefit of more charges on your Champion. Charge powers seem kind of useless at this point if you can only use it once or twice the whole game.

McKahlan
06-06-2013, 06:13 AM
Taking out a management aspect of the game ? I'm against.
It's like saying : "We should draw a 1-drop turn 1, a 2-drop turn 2, a 3-drop turn 3, etc.... Because being curve screw isn't fun !"

That's the part of randomness you try to tame by building your deck.

MugenMusou
06-06-2013, 07:24 AM
Absolutely.

[SIZE=3]It doesn't even have to be the way Hearthstone has it...maybe keep the basic lands, but make it so your Champion gain 1 charge power each turn automatically(the whole point of charging up...) and including every time you play a land? This way Cryptozoic can just redo the Champions abilities to reflect the charges. So if you draw more land than you need to compare to your opponent then you'll get the benefit of more charges on your Champion. Charge powers seem kind of useless at this point if you can only use it once or twice the whole game.

Well my original belief was WoW/Carte style resource system is the best of all I had experienced as it mixed land card element + as needed sacrifice system; however, I do now see the reason why Magic prefers the land system without sacrifice. 5 main points were made by lead Magic designer. I think the difference for at least my original belief vs. his are two things.

1. Do you see TCG like chess i.e. highly strategy based independent of luck factor game? Or Do you see TCG like a poker? The answer lies in between.
2. As a player when you get mana screwed, it is negative experience (period). But when you look at it as a whole game, it may be different story.

http://houshasen.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/%E3%80%90hex%E3%80%91-why-resource-screw/

Liokae
06-06-2013, 07:27 AM
i refuse to read any more of your forum posts until you change your font. Hurts my eyes...

woosh

eioi
06-06-2013, 07:34 AM
Didn't you say you won't play the game and leave the forum in an extra thread Yasi?

To the change to heartstone,

I don't think this would be a good idea.

1. The game would need to completely redesigned and some cards loose their intention (get more resourcegeneration per turn or you can play 2 resource per turn) and so it wouldn't be the game so much peaple have pledge for

2. Because its a game where you can't pick the cards you want, so when it would be redone the next thing players like you would complain about is that they often draw cards which are to powerfull to play and are overrun by players which have an amount of cheap creatures or they only draw cheap creature which lose against a player who get a good mix and players like you would then want to choose which card they draw. Would this be a fun game for you anymore, if yes then find another game, because i hope they will never change the game in this way because this would then like a complex version of GO with cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29 for those wo didn't have heard of it).

3. In the end its a game with a luck component in it which shouldn't be gone (in my opinion) and with a good deck you can decrease the chance to have to less or to much ressource even if you can't eleminate this chance to zero.

4. Maybe the System is unfair in the way that some unskilled and bad player may win only with luck over the skillest play, but show me one cardgame where you need to draw random cards with luck and play again some other player where you can win with only skill.

LexC
06-06-2013, 07:40 AM
Yasi Epps will never stop Trolling these Forums, not untill all of his accounts are banned.

Yasi
06-06-2013, 07:45 AM
1. Do you see TCG like chess i.e. highly strategy based independent of luck factor game? Or Do you see TCG like a poker? The answer lies in between.
2. As a player when you get mana screwed, it is negative experience (period). But when you look at it as a whole game, it may be different story.
No, it's definitely like poker. People who complain about mana screw but is okay with PvP being mostly for the P2P players confuse me a lot.



1. The game would need to completely redesigned and some cards loose their intention (get more resourcegeneration per turn or you can play 2 resource per turn) and so it wouldn't be the game so much peaple have pledge for

2. Because its a game where you can't pick the cards you want, so when it would be redone the next thing players like you would complain about is that they often draw cards which are to powerfull to play and are overrun by players which have an amount of cheap creatures or they only draw cheap creature which lose against a player who get a good mix and players like you would then want to choose which card they draw. Would this be a fun game for you anymore, if yes then find another game, because i hope they will never change the game in this way because this would then like a complex version of GO with cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game%29 for those wo didn't have heard of it).

3. In the end its a game with a luck component in it which shouldn't be gone (in my opinion) and with a good deck you can decrease the chance to have to less or to much ressource even if you can't eleminate this chance to zero.

4. Maybe the System is unfair in the way that some unskilled and bad player may win only with luck over the skillest play, but show me one cardgame where you need to draw random cards with luck and play again some other player where you can win with only skill.

1. Maybe.
2&3. Excellent points.
4. You lost me here, but that's fine.

You two pretty much summed up what needed to be read. However, I don't think the minority who are against this issue will ever come across these posts.

Lastly, I'm not for/against mana screw. I just like making making posts.

RanaDunes
06-06-2013, 08:01 AM
I don't see why not. Really, who draw a land and think to themselves that they will never play it? Everyone wants 1 resource a turn and there's no more chance involved. It's also fair in the sense that both players get exactly what they need. Could even let you choose whatever color resource you want each turn if you're into that. Hex will also be more fast pace, spectating a game wont end up being a chore, and will further Hex in eSport domination. I think the simplicity of how Resource is handled in Hearthstone compared to Hex will be a make-it-or-break-it for most players. It's a win-win situation this way.

It's also worth noting that at the end of the day, people are going to find something to complain over. You can't really please everyone. That's why having it similar to how Hearthstone does it will make people have one less thing to complain about. Unless people like chances/unfair games, then they could either try buying a ton of boosters as a hobby.

How about... NO?

I played WoW TCG, ShadowEra and now Scrolls and they all use the system you suggested, it's a dumped down version of MTG/Hex mechanics.

MugenMusou
06-06-2013, 08:15 AM
No, it's definitely like poker. People who complain about mana screw but is okay with PvP being mostly for the P2P players confuse me a lot.

[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

After reading Rosewater's article, I now see mana screw as a side effect of a medication. The medication provides more variable play, time of joy/excitement, adding a challenge to deck building skill etc. But as a result, you may occasionally see the side effect.

Xenavire
06-06-2013, 09:12 AM
First off, hats off to Talreth for properly playing the game. At least, I think you were. If you weren't, please don't EVER consider game design as an occupation.



I'm not intelligent enough to articulate a response to this that doesn't involve heavy use of profanity or legitimate threats, so I'll just leave it at this: You are my least favorite person on these forums.

I dont exist to please you, so that doesn't affect me in the slightest. My only goal it to keep things civil and by and large on-topic here. You are doing so, but Yasi isn't, joke or not. In simple terms, if you said that on the street and a cop heard, you would have serious explaining to do. Why should it be different on a forum?

All I want to do is talk about cards, without this kind of crud all the time.

OP_Kyle
06-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Please cease the personal attacks. Keep things on point. We are talking about resource systems here (even though we aren't going to change anything in HEX). If you disagree with someone, that is fine, but attacking someones intellect or character because of a disagreement is not acceptable.

If we continue down this path I will lock the thread and wield the mighty "Ban Hammer"

jai151
06-06-2013, 10:07 AM
If we continue down this path I will lock the thread and wield the mighty "Ban Hammer"

Ah! A new piece of equipment for Kyle, Bear Wrestler!

Ban Hammer - Kyle, Bear Wrestler may target any troop.

EDIT: And my original card proposal, slightly edited -


2 (1 Diamond Threshold)
Kyle, Bear Wrestler
Troop - Human Forum-Mod
You may choose not to untap Kyle, Bear Wrestler during your untap phase
(T) - Tap target bear. It does not untap as long as Kyle, Bear Wrestler remains tapped
2/2
"I swear I didn't think we'd get there!"

EQUIPMENT:
Luchadore Mask - If bear remains tapped for three turns, destroy it and untap Kyle, Bear Wrestler. Kyle, Bear Wrestler gets a permanent +1/+1

Luchadore Singlet - When you use Kyle, Bear Wrestler's ability, put Cory, Lovely Assistant into play.

Luchadore Boots - Kyle, Bear Wrestler gains Speed. When Kyle, Bear Wrestler comes into play, put Gentle Ben, Trained Bear into play under an opponent's control.

Jotora
06-06-2013, 10:21 AM
Remove Basic Lands completely and change Resource into what Hearthstone has?http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/michael_scott/The-Office-gifs-the-office-14948948-240-196.gif

ConnorJS
06-06-2013, 10:34 AM
If it's not broken don't fix it, Cory has said many times that other resource styles are too predictable and get boring. He is not going to change a core mechanic of the game after it's been successfully balanced over number of months...

RobHaven
06-06-2013, 10:47 AM
Please cease the personal attacks. Keep things on point.

Yeah, that's my bad. I'm not usually one to partake in internet banter; I'll curb this streak of d**kishness I've been on.