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shocker455
06-05-2013, 08:42 PM
Is hex really an mmo? They constantly say it is.

Before i start, im not trying to attack hex, i think its great and pledge 750 in kickstarter.

MMO, massive multilayer online, requires large amount of people to play a game together. Hex only allows 3 people to play together at one time, not 20+ like in normal mmo games.

Some may say guilds are were you interact with the 20+ people at once. warcraft3 had guilds (clans) but you wouldn't call it a mmo-rts.

If you say pve is what makes it mmo, well most of hex's pve is single player, not multiplayer.

Cory constantly says how it bugs him when other people use tcg for games what have cards. Maybe they shouldn't be miss using mmo, of course since a large amount of marketing is based around calling it a mmo tcg it wont change. A better description would be a rpg-tcg, because the pve part is a rpg.

-----------------edit------------


I totallyyyy didn't make this thread because cory doesn't like how tcg used to label any card game, just exactly like mmo tends to be used to label any rpg. <insert alot more sarcasm>

And i guess hex is an mmo :)

It is my understanding that hex IS a TCG/MMO... Trading Card Game/Making Magic Obsolete :rolleyes:

dogmod
06-05-2013, 08:46 PM
Is hex really an mmo? They constantly say it is.

Before i start, im not trying to attack hex, i think its great and pledge 750 in kickstarter.

MMO, massive multilayer online, requires large amount of people to play a game together. Hex only allows 3 people to play together at one time, not 20+ like in normal mmo games.

Some may say guilds are were you interact with the 20+ people at once. warcraft3 had guilds (clans) but you wouldn't call it a mmo-rts.

If you say pve is what makes it mmo, well most of hex's pve is single player, not multiplayer.

Cory constantly says how it bugs him when other people use tcg for games what have cards. Maybe they shouldn't be miss using mmo, of course since a large amount of marketing is based around calling it a mmo tcg it wont change. A better description would be a rpg-tcg, because the pve part is a rpg.

This is not an unreasonable question... Based on the revealed mechanics etc... It is not far above Diablo 2 or 3 in terms of interactivity and cooperative play. Now you could argue that with their economies, communities and other elements that D2 and 3 were very near or were MMOs themselves.

I am not sure if there is a definition to what an MMO is.. interesting discussion though

Brumby66
06-05-2013, 08:48 PM
I sent them a message saying that the one thing they are missing is large scale pve. The reason they aren't doing it is because they don't want the downtime of waiting for other players to finish. I gave them my solution and they said they'll talk about it as a team. I have the same concern on the pve side, but I trust that they'll figure it out. They are passionate.

Dralon
06-05-2013, 08:49 PM
Yes.

shocker455
06-05-2013, 08:52 PM
Iv never heared d2 or d3 be called an mmo but i never played them either.

funktion
06-05-2013, 08:52 PM
Yeah, "mmo" and "sandbox" are two terms I think are WAY overused in gaming right now. I think calling this an MMO is quite a stretch. CURRENTLY the most players we know of playing at one time is 3 (raids) and that post-beta/launch they hope to make a 2v2 format.

Regardless of all the other great things going on, whether it's the auction house interaction or trading etc... having the limitation of only 3 people interacting during gameplay means it's not an MMO (I thinkt this is pretty hard to argue against). There's a lot of WoW terms being used (raids, dungeons, etc) but just because those terms are being used, doesn't mean this is MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER.

For me, I just imagine that it's Cory being tongue in cheek, and regardless of whether I think this qualifies as an MMO, I'm still SUPER DUPER EXCITED!!!

Avedecus
06-05-2013, 08:53 PM
MMO is, when taken literally, an extremely broad term that has until only recently been applied to a very specific genre of games (RPGs). These days, almost any game made is both Multiplayer and Online, so the real debate is about what "Massively" specifically means.

shocker455
06-05-2013, 08:54 PM
I understand why there isn't a large pve battle, and im not saying there should be one. Hex will be a great game, it doesnt need to be an mmo.

(respond to the post 5 posts up, people respond 2 fast lol)

TheDiv
06-05-2013, 08:57 PM
Semantics.

Genocidal
06-05-2013, 08:58 PM
By the textbook definition, probably. By what is expected of an MMO, probably not. Not something that I'm worried about though, personally.

Ozmono
06-05-2013, 08:59 PM
MMO means Massively Multiplayer Online. MMO and RPG are different, that's why there is a genre for games that combine the two MMORPG. Allowing three players to play in one instance is not a MMO. I wouldn't call battlefield or many games that allow larger numbers than 3 a MMO either. I think the OP is right when he said "A better description would be a rpg-tcg, because the pve part is a rpg". That said I also don't care if it's a MMO or not, I'm looking forward to it all the same.

Evilgm
06-05-2013, 09:04 PM
Regardless of its original meaning, most people read MMO and think "online rpg I can play with my friends". That's what HEX is, and I feel CZE have been fairly open to people that that's their goal. As others have said, lots of things that are technically Massively Multiplayer Online games aren't considered MMOs (Call of Duty is the best example) whilst games that are seen as MMOs sometimes don't have features one associates with them (such as GW2 and Raids)

dogmod
06-05-2013, 09:06 PM
# of dudes on the screen really isn't a great differentiator for what is or isn't an MMO based on my personal experience.

BossHoss
06-05-2013, 09:13 PM
It is my understanding that hex IS a TCG/MMO... Trading Card Game/Making Magic Obsolete :rolleyes:

dogmod
06-05-2013, 09:15 PM
It is my understanding that hex IS a TCG/MMO... Trading Card Game/Making Magic Obsolete :rolleyes:

Boom

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 09:15 PM
I would consider the game an MMO based on the way tournament pools and the auction house works.

PvE...not-so-much directly, but there's stuff like Keeps and potentially cross-faction warfare and world PvE bosses that might be added.

Stok3d
06-05-2013, 09:15 PM
It is my understanding that hex IS a TCG/MMO... Trading Card Game/Making Magic Obsolete :rolleyes:

LMAO--The Boss Coined it.

Hex is definately an MMO: Making Magic Obsolete

Pwn1nP3nquin
06-05-2013, 09:17 PM
Yeah, it all depends on what you personally perceive as the definition of an MMO. Are the players required to play simultaneously with each other to be considered an MMO? Or is any game with a very large social/community aspect that incorporates some use of multiplay considered an MMO?

tl;dr
It's based on the definition an individual wants to assign to the acronym "MMO".

funktion
06-05-2013, 09:20 PM
I would consider the game an MMO based on the way tournament pools and the auction house works.

PvE...not-so-much directly, but there's stuff like Keeps and potentially cross-faction warfare and world PvE bosses that might be added.

By your definition then, MTGO is the first TCG MMO then?

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 09:22 PM
I used to be a lot more of a stickler on what was and was not an "MMO," but now the lines keep blurring to the point where I (nor anyone else, really) no longer care.

The way I define it now is simple: Are there overarching systems within the game that connects every player together?

It could be socially (guilds, as long as they actually do something in-game, like GvG), economically (auction house), and gameplay (instanced or zoned locations capable of sustaining at least 100-200 players at a time).

For Hex, that'd be guilds, an auction house, and large tournament pools.

Gwaer
06-05-2013, 09:28 PM
I agree with the OP, I do hope they implement features that can make it more MMOlike as far as larger pve/pvp battles with some different mechanics involved, different game archetypes that you just can't do in the physical world are very important here. It's a shame they aren't launching with them, but hopefully they will come, i just hope they come fast enough.

caffn8d
06-05-2013, 09:29 PM
As long as there is a large central player population hosted on a server, you can probably make an argument that any game is an MMO anymore. In this case, I think it was meant to evoke several of the WoW style online trappings in peoples minds. Guilds, PvE, and an auction house being standouts among them. I'd never really considered it any more deeply than that.

Tyrfang
06-05-2013, 09:32 PM
I feel like the WoW style MMO (massive, server-based games) is slowly dying in favor of smaller player count, instanced zones...

It keeps the resources required more dynamically scale-able.

That's another discussion, though.

Malicus
06-05-2013, 09:32 PM
I am happy with the usage of this term and I think as time progresses they will build on the experience to deepen the MMO side which is far more complex than the simpler pvp/tournament interaction.

Most of my favourite things about MMO's are already here.

KingBlackstone
06-05-2013, 11:31 PM
MMOTCG sounds better than TCRPG.

Ozmono
06-05-2013, 11:54 PM
MMOTCG sounds better than TCRPG.
I don't know. TCRPG has a certain charm or ring to it. MMOTCG is a bit of a mouth full. That said I think the connotations with MMO would attract more interest, especially since many people associate RPG with it anyway.

KeplerVerge
06-06-2013, 12:01 AM
It is my understanding that hex IS a TCG/MMO... Trading Card Game/Making Magic Obsolete :rolleyes:

hahah +1

Everytime they mention MMO they talk about community. For your typical MMO, parties were 5 or 6 people and only raids involved more. Large worlds and community interaction are what MMO always meant to me and it looks like Hex will fit the bill, albeit with it's own flavor of exploration and story telling.

ForgedSol
06-06-2013, 12:20 AM
The way I use the term MMO, it's not really. At least not yet. (Who knows what they have planned for the future.) But my definition of TCG includes lane based trading card games, and for some reason Cory doesn't count those at TCGs.

(Possibly because they wouldn't be able to claim Hex as the first MMOTCG if all lane based TCGs counted. Possibly. Looking specifically at SolForge as being able to fit the term, but there are others for all I know.)

Ozmono
06-06-2013, 12:23 AM
The way I use the term MMO, it's not really. At least not yet. (Who knows what they have planned for the future.) But my definition of TCG includes lane based trading card games, and for some reason Cory doesn't count those at TCGs.

(Possibly because they wouldn't be able to claim Hex as the first MMOTCG if all lane based TCGs counted. Possibly. Looking specifically at SolForge as being able to fit the term, but there are others for all I know.)
As someone else said though, if the definition of MMO is used as loosely as some use it here than Magic Online would probably be the first.

ForgedSol
06-06-2013, 12:25 AM
As someone else said though, if the definition of MMO is used as loosely as some use it here than Magic Online would probably be the first.

True. What we can say though is that they're the first to coin the term, and it's a fantastic term to coin for marketing reasons.

Ozmono
06-06-2013, 12:31 AM
True. What we can say though is that they're the first to coin the term, and it's a fantastic term to coin for marketing reasons.

Agreed.
I think technically the TCRPG as the OP and a few others suggested would be more accurate but I'm happy if they attract more attention by using MMO. Afterall I've invested into this project now and I want it to be successful.

funktion
06-06-2013, 01:05 AM
My problem with it is exactly what all you are saying is the reason it's okay. Watering down phrases which are meant to describe a game or genre so much so that the phrase no applies to EVERY SINGLE GAME EVER MADE voids the phrase from holding and descriptive value.

All the sudden Call of Duty is a "sandbox shooter mmo with rpg elements" sorry no... it's a shooter.

RanaDunes
06-06-2013, 01:23 AM
Hex is definitely not an MMO from what we've seen. Heck I wouldn't even call some "MMOs" in the market as MMOs. Since I've played Meridian, UO, EQ, FFXI, EVE, L2 and other MMOs I have to say that I love the genre, but when the term "MMO" was synonymous with Solo-Quest-Grind while others do the same thing as you do without meaningful player-to-player interaction... that's when the term became a big turn off for me. Whenever I hear "MMO" I just lose interest instantly.

Why I backed Hex with $1,000? Is that it offers Reactive Card Play (Quick Basic, a.k.a instants and abilities) and the 5 colors resource system (in other words I was looking for something on par with MTG's depth) for I was sick of over simplified Online Card Games and I'm sick of not being able to do anything on my opponent's turn.

The MMO part of Hex does not concern me at all, but I do enjoy some of the PvE concepts.. PvE doesn't make a game an MMO. StarCraft 2 is not an MMO, why would Hex be called that?

Like you said I think the dev team decided to call it an MMO to market the game. 3-players raid is hardly a raid in the MMO standards and the Auction House doesn't cut it either. Actually I consider the Auction House one of the features added to the MMO that takes the MMO away from being "Massively" because it detracts from play-to-player interaction... However, AH is perfectly reasonable in a Card Game.

Hex is an awesome Online TCG/CCG and that's how I advertise it to my friends and they're excited about it too. :)

ForgedSol
06-06-2013, 01:27 AM
I'm not saying I'm all for it. (I actually don't like how he dismisses lane based trading card games as not being TCGs. If they're card based games and you can trade, they're TCGs.) But it is what it is. Games are crossing genres now. What does it actually mean to be an RPG? Borderlands isn't actually an RPGFPS, it's a LootFPS, except Loot Game isn't a term that people use to name genres. It's not like it changes the actual game play of the games. The terms will catch your eye, but you can still easily evaluate the gameplay to see if it's for you, and there are plenty of ways to do that now instead of just looking at the front and back cover of a box.

(Phone companies using terms like 3G and 4G to label their network speeds, when those speeds don't always meet the actual definition, just so it looks like the slower speed companies have an equally fast network as the competition, that does bother me. People can't easily compare networks and know one is slower than the other. It's a lie that's easier to hide.)

Voices
06-06-2013, 01:31 AM
Reasonable question in the OP, indeed. And Cory is our Humpty Dumpty.

Arbiter
06-06-2013, 01:33 AM
I think it is fine. As an old pen and paper roleplayer I have never liked the term RPG for that class of games, but this seems fine as an MMO. There is potential for larger PVE groups in the future, the logistics need to be sorted out, and PVP tournaments can be very large (even though play is one on one). Neverwinter is classed as an MMO and caps out at 5 (at the moment). It has the character growth and loot grind. It misses the animated characters, and currently misses mid size group play.

I can understand some people saying it is not an MMO (the same way I will maintain the so called RPGs are not RPGs), but it has enough elements of one and potential that I am fine with the term.

GreyGriffin
06-06-2013, 02:17 AM
My concern is that their focus on "MMO's" is purely related to mechanics. Get gear, get levels, progress through dungeons. Most MMOs also feature strong, overarching narratives and elements of exploration. If they can deliver on that, then I'll be impressed.

Edit: The mechanics I refer to are, specifically, killing mobs and getting loot.

ssg13
06-06-2013, 02:30 AM
Some consider League of Legends, Dota 2, World of Tanks, War Thunder etc. MMO.
If you ignore part where you level up, gain gear, make decisions of your upgrades they are not different from traditional pvp games(CS, Quake, CoD,Battlefield). Altought almost every one of new fps games has leveling and unlocking system. Why aren't fps games called MMO then? All that separates games I meantioned from traditional pvp games is they have one huge button which every player pushes and it searches match for them. This one magical button comes with ranking and elo system which rates players. I guess that makes them MMO.

There really isn't clear definition of MMO anymore. Borders are really vague. Same goes for co-op. Its all about marketing now days. Bending the truth.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 03:17 AM
When they say MMO they imply MMORPG for the features they'll have :
- Chat rooms
- Guilds
- Auction House
- multiplayer (3) PvE
- Characters
- Talent Points
- Leveling
- Faction/Reputation "farming"/choice
- 40 dungeons with new released content on a regular basis.

So it's more of a RPG than a MMO, anyway, they give HEX the big MMO name, but are pretty clear and not overselling the features.
You won't have a 3D Character wandering in a 3D world :)

~

BlackRoger
06-06-2013, 04:21 AM
Is it Massive? yes
Is it multiplayer? yup
Online? of course.

I guess the problem is that this does describe half the triple-A games nowadays.

Xenavire
06-06-2013, 04:29 AM
The way I see it, an MMO usually promises 2 things (but not always) and those are PvP and PvE. We have both, with multiple players able to compete at once, and it is always online. We have guilds, an auction house, chat channels, and a lot more - if we boil it down, it offers about the same as WoW or any other MMO.

That said, it could go a lot further to prove itself, but it has the design space and is still in pre-alpha. There could be surprises to come.

Banquetto
06-06-2013, 05:44 AM
I haven't heard anything said about Hex which would make it an MMO.

It's pretty clear there's nothing Massively Multiplayer about it. It's a Multiplayer Online Trading Card Game.


Is it Massive? yes
Is it multiplayer? yup
Online? of course.

"MMO" doesn't stand for "Massive Multiplayer Online" though. It stands for "Massively Multiplayer Online". Hex is not Massively Multiplayer.


The way I see it, an MMO usually promises 2 things (but not always) and those are PvP and PvE.

Actually, an MMO promises one thing. Massively Multiplayer Online gameplay.

Avaian
06-06-2013, 06:11 AM
"MMO" doesn't stand for "Massive Multiplayer Online" though. It stands for "Massively Multiplayer Online". Hex is not Massively Multiplayer.

What is your definition of Massively Multiplayer? How I see it the Tournaments that will be constantly going on will contain a massive amount of people playing against each other.

However words/terms change from there literal meaning over time, and MMO is one of those terms that don't mean the same thing as its literal meaning, thus causing this debate. MMO is most defiantly an ambiguous term now.

jai151
06-06-2013, 06:18 AM
What is your definition of Massively Multiplayer? How I see it the Tournaments that will be constantly going on will contain a massive amount of people playing against each other.

However words/terms change from there literal meaning over time, and MMO is one of those terms that don't mean the same thing as its literal meaning, thus causing this debate. MMO is most defiantly an ambiguous term now.

The standard interpretation is many people online simultaneously in a shared persistent world. So while the tournaments could contain a massive amount of people, they would each be playing in their own game.

The problem is there really is no true definition. By the standards most people have put forth in this thread, Diablo II and Halo would be considered MMOs and MTGO would have been the first MMOTCG.

Avaian
06-06-2013, 06:37 AM
MMOTCG sounds better than TCRPG.

I don't mind RPTCG, and fits Hex fairly well. I guess you could also go ORPTCG (Online Role-Playing Trading Card Game), RPTCGO with Online on the end would fit better.

Hieronymous
06-06-2013, 06:37 AM
We don't have words for what Hex is really. It's got persistent elements but the "world" isn't a virtual space like,say, Orgrammar, or even the Eve Online galaxy. What it does have is a persistent virtual economy. Is an economy a world?

Avaian
06-06-2013, 06:43 AM
We don't have words for what Hex is really. It's got persistent elements but the "world" isn't a virtual space like,say, Orgrammar, or even the Eve Online galaxy. What it does have is a persistent virtual economy. Is an economy a world?

There are cities and zones, it is just in 2D and travel is instantaneous, and it is possible they could have city chat and that is where the auction houses are.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 06:44 AM
GuildWars was not tagged as an MMORPG because it was instancied and the players where never massively together.
HEX feels like that too, but who cares, it takes the best from MMO and TCG together.

~

maniza
06-06-2013, 06:48 AM
it has a massive amount of people interacting in a persistent world but yea the multiplayer component its not masive

nxiety
06-06-2013, 07:18 AM
I think MMO is a bit wrong given what I've seen and read... but it's also not something I'll complain about. They could add features in the future that could make it more resemble a traditional MMO.

However, I'm not sure how else you would describe it.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:26 AM
The reason why everyone uses the MMO acronym is because everyone has at least an idea of what it will include.

If you make up something new, like... RPTCG or ORPTCG or whatever, people are just going get confused.

regomar
06-06-2013, 07:26 AM
It's no less MMO than Atlantica Online, which is a turn-based MMO where you can battle PvE with three players at the same time and you control a group of 9 mercenaries each in a turn-based battle system.

It sounds like the grouping in this game will be on the same scale as Atlantica but I've never seen anyone try to claim that Atlantica isn't an MMO...

A game doesn't have to be a WoW clone to be an MMO folks, jeeze...

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:28 AM
It's no less MMO than Atlantica Online, which is a turn-based MMO where you can battle PvE with three players at the same time and you control a group of 9 mercenaries each in a turn-based battle system.

It sounds like the grouping in this game will be on the same scale as Atlantica but I've never seen anyone try to claim that Atlantica isn't an MMO...

A game doesn't have to be a WoW clone to be an MMO folks, jeeze...

Well, Atlantica Online has group "raids" like the Tower of Babel, and you can see other players on-screen.

Man, that brings back memories. I was in the guild when we cleared that for the first time. :)

regomar
06-06-2013, 07:33 AM
Well, Atlantica Online has group "raids" like the Tower of Babel, and you can see other players on-screen.

Man, that brings back memories. I was in the guild when we cleared that for the first time. :)

Yeah, but you can't actually interact with any more than 2 other players (for a total of 3) at once with any of the battle mechanics was my point, just like Hex.

And yeah, I've been with Atlantica since the beginning. The raids are pretty fun, they re-vamped Babel last year and made it worth running again. Awesome game, even though it's had its ups and downs.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:36 AM
Yeah, but you can't actually interact with any more than 2 other players (for a total of 3) at once with any of the battle mechanics was my point, just like Hex.

And yeah, I've been with Atlantica since the beginning. The raids are pretty fun, they re-vamped Babel last year and made it worth running again. Awesome game, even though it's had its ups and downs.

No, but you can do stuff like kill monsters nearby, so when they get out of battle they don't go straight into another fight. A lot of the late game dungeons involved full clears with a time limit, so that was another way they allowed interaction between groups.

Hmm, the full-clear with time limit might be applicable to Hex's PvE.

Ryoma_Echizen
06-06-2013, 08:17 AM
Hex is a multiplayer online TCG with many elements of MMORPGs like guild functionality, an AH, raiding, loot drops, dungeons, etc. As Tyrfang has pointed out, they call it an MMO to more easily explain the game's vision to people.

wayne
06-06-2013, 09:30 AM
Agree with OP. Should drop one M and just be MOTCG.