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Lafoote
06-06-2013, 06:09 AM
I understand there is a block format and a release timetable of 4 months. What I have not seen is an indication of what happens when a set rotates out. Will the sets go "out of print" or will you always be able to go back and buy "retired" packs for your PVE raids and everything format? Eternal availability is impractical with physical cards, but very feasible in the 4th dimension of HEX

ShaolinRaven
06-06-2013, 07:36 AM
We don't know. They would probably stop selling the sets because it would encourage people to buy the new set once they start rotating out. Also if they want to add value to collectors and card collections then they would need to stop selling a set once it rotated out.

But we don't have an official word on it.

jai151
06-06-2013, 07:40 AM
They have said they will listen to the community, but latest indications (from off comments in Twitch, etc) are that sets WILL go out of print. Most likely they will sell only the current and previous block, so Set 1 would rotate out of sale in two years.

For the viability of a secondary market and collector appeal, sets should definitely rotate out. Otherwise you end up with an endless supply of cards, making old sets less valuable as time goes on, rather than more.

jaxsonbateman
06-06-2013, 07:41 AM
I hope they don't stop selling boosters. There's no loss to Crypto by selling old boosters; there won't be much demand for them, but then, it's not like they're actually using significant resources to sell them.

I know with MTGO you can do drafts of old sets, and it's great. It's far less common than current-drafts, but it can be fun to switch things up. Plus you can get some cards that you might not have been around for.

Trothael
06-06-2013, 07:42 AM
Apparently all cards will be useable in PvE, regardless of set. And I believe they said in an update that they were planning a two year block rotation for PvP at the moment.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:43 AM
This is just speculation, but...
I think if they want cards to maintain or appreciate in value, they would have to stop selling out-of-print boosters. Maybe something like "Alright guys, Block 1 is over. There will be X packs remaining in the store, and once those are sold out, they're gone FOR GOOD!"

They might release PvE-only reprints of old sets if the game popularity explodes, but I doubt that. It would be easier to reprint it in a new PvP set.

nxiety
06-06-2013, 07:47 AM
I sincerely hope sets rotate out and stop being printed. It creates more value in the cards over time.

Trothael
06-06-2013, 07:48 AM
This is just speculation, but...
I think if they want cards to maintain or appreciate in value, they would have to stop selling out-of-print boosters. Maybe something like "Alright guys, Block 1 is over. There will be X packs remaining in the store, and once those are sold out, they're gone FOR GOOD!"

They might release PvE-only reprints of old sets if the game popularity explodes, but I doubt that. It would be easier to reprint it in a new PvP set.

I think a good way to combat this problem would be to do editions of each set. Like the first run of block 1 is 1st edition, and then when set 2 comes out, any set 1 boosters bought from the store are 2nd edition.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:50 AM
I think a good way to combat this problem would be to do editions of each set. Like the first run of block 1 is 1st edition, and then when set 2 comes out, any set 1 boosters bought from the store are 2nd edition.

Or just maybe a vintage edition and an unlimited edition.

jaxsonbateman
06-06-2013, 07:50 AM
Do they care about the secondary market though? This isn't Wizards with a physical product and external retailers that they have an obligation to.

regomar
06-06-2013, 07:51 AM
I fully support sets going out of print.

If we want our cards to retain ANY value whatsoever the boosters can't be perpetually available. Would collecting old Magic cards be so exciting if you could still buy boosters of Alpha for $3.99?

jai151
06-06-2013, 07:54 AM
Do they care about the secondary market though? This isn't Wizards with a physical product and external retailers that they have an obligation to.

Yes.

The secondary market has very little to do with obligations, instead it's a source of free advertising and a way to bring people into the game. Part of the allure of collectible card games is, after all, collecting, and people want their collections to increase in perceived value over time.

Also, the stores that pop up selling singles, etc, often also run articles and other news sites, and they'll often sponser tournaments within the game.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 07:55 AM
Actually, here's an interesting idea: Resealed boosters!

Set the price of boosters to be around the average value of a booster (based on the cost of the entire set on the AH). At the moment someone buys a booster take the cards off the AH and pay the player who put the option up.

That way, you still have the "option" of a booster, and the booster experience, but no new cards are created.

You would have to figure out how to avoid money being created, unless they buy entire sets of cards at a time for a single "print run".

Tathel
06-06-2013, 08:02 AM
I think they want to allow collectability in the secondary market, keeping rotated out sets alive for sale might ruin a few aspects of long term value.

This seems disadvantageous to me because the product is already digital, so if it becomes unsellable for any decent value at some point you can't even use the physical card for anything. You literally just have a worthless digital picture.

At least if this happened to a physical card you could do something with it like make a collage or old cards, or some sort of art thing (I used to have magic card light switch plates made with old worthless cards).

Now let's look at other side effects of keeping them in 'print'

- PvE players can more easily get an older card that may be more useful than a modern card for a specific PvE challenge.
- If a card rotates back into standard there is a second avenue to obtain it.

I think it would be better served rotating out of print. Long term players will get more value this way, and short term players probably aren't going to care either way.

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:04 AM
Actually, here's an interesting idea: Resealed boosters!

Set the price of boosters to be around the average value of a booster (based on the cost of the entire set on the AH). At the moment someone buys a booster take the cards off the AH and pay the player who put the option up.

That way, you still have the "option" of a booster, and the booster experience, but no new cards are created.

Trying to figure out how to avoid money being created, unless they buy entire sets of cards at a time for a single "print run".

Hmm. I wonder if instead of that, we could do resealed packs provided by players. You have a few rules in place in the system, you have to do say a minimum of 5 packs, of the 55 commons, 15 uncommons, and 5 rare/legendaries, all rares must be unique, at least half the uncommons must be unique, and at least 2/3 of the commons must be unique (on a sliding scale as you do a larger print run). You choose which card to use as pack art, but at least one copy of that card must be in the print run (Usually will be the best card provided).

This is already a very common practice among Magic resellers, and the rules would keep you from doing a run that is all the cheapest card available at each tier plus one decent card.

Tathel
06-06-2013, 08:08 AM
Hmm. I wonder if instead of that, we could do resealed packs provided by players. You have a few rules in place in the system, you have to do say a minimum of 5 packs, of the 55 commons, 15 uncommons, and 5 rare/legendaries, all rares must be unique, at least half the uncommons must be unique, and at least 2/3 of the commons must be unique (on a sliding scale as you do a larger print run). You choose which card to use as pack art, but at least one copy of that card must be in the print run (Usually will be the best card provided).

This is already a very common practice among Magic resellers, and the rules would keep you from doing a run that is all the cheapest card available at each tier plus one decent card.

My only reservation about doing this in an official capacity is that it's somewhat disingenuous. People will really only dump the worst rares so if there are like 50 rares in set one and 30 are really useful long term you will probably only have a pool of 20 that aren't that great. Same with uncommons and commons to a lesser extent

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:08 AM
jal151: With a digital system, it'd be possible to just buy a large set of cards at market value and throw them into the same card distribution as the original.

Inflate the price to match the value of the cards as they go up/down, but put a floor at the value of the set when the original set of cards was purchased at MV.

It would allow for drafts and other limited formats years into in the future, as well. Player resealed packs don't really allow for that...

Tathel
06-06-2013, 08:11 AM
This makes me wonder if we will be able to use the crafting system to craft a booster

tacospag
06-06-2013, 08:13 AM
The cards would appreciate in value inherently although only slightly because less people would be buying the older set, therefore singles are less available. Opening packs is a bad way to get cards for a set. "value" is a bad reason to cripple the game. All it does is make it more expensive for other players to get in. Let's not simulate the bad aspects of an offline card game.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:15 AM
The cards would appreciate in value inherently although only slightly because less people would be buying the older set, therefore singles are less available. Opening packs is a bad way to get cards for a set. "value" is a bad reason to cripple the game. All it does is make it more expensive for other players to get in. Let's not simulate the bad aspects of an offline card game.

Cards would appreciate in value dramatically if the overall population of players grows dramatically, in proportion to the number of playsets of a given block is available.

But, once the population stabilizes, the prices will probably be relatively stable as well, disregarding any new combos that might be created by new cards or rule changes.

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:15 AM
My only reservation about doing this in an official capacity is that it's somewhat disingenuous. People will really only dump the worst rares so if there are like 50 rares in set one and 30 are really useful long term you will probably only have a pool of 20 that aren't that great. Same with uncommons and commons to a lesser extent

Ah, didn't mean in an official capacity, I meant to have these marked as player created and sold through the AH. More for those who want to build their collections than chase, as that's what the current reseals are, basically the stores open a booster box, pull all the chase rares, toss one or two back in the pool along with some lesser rares that have been purchased or otherwise had laying around, and then resell. You know what you're getting into.


jal151: With a digital system, it'd be possible to just buy a large set of cards at market value and throw them into the same card distribution as the original.

Inflate the price to match the value of the cards as they go up/down, but put a floor at the value of the set when the original set of cards was purchased at MV.

It would allow for drafts and other limited formats years into in the future, as well. Player resealed packs don't really allow for that...

True. My only issue with this is I could see a lot of people on the AH artificially inflating the price of their cards hoping to get an autobuy for a print run. Maybe have it tied to the crafting system? So as a card is broken down, it goes into a card pool. These would then be broken into packs which could then be sold as "Void Society Specials"

Tathel
06-06-2013, 08:17 AM
The cards would appreciate in value inherently although only slightly because less people would be buying the older set, therefore singles are less available. Opening packs is a bad way to get cards for a set. "value" is a bad reason to cripple the game. All it does is make it more expensive for other players to get in. Let's not simulate the bad aspects of an offline card game.

Unless they somehow require a specific card that doesn't come back into rotation or have any similar card in rotation i'm not sure how it would cripple the game.
MTG doesn't seem crippled by the fact that you can't buy Alpha or Beta packs.

And if they make the PvE in such a way that you can't play an aspect with whatever cards are currently in block I think that's a PvE design issue.

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:17 AM
The cards would appreciate in value inherently although only slightly because less people would be buying the older set, therefore singles are less available. Opening packs is a bad way to get cards for a set. "value" is a bad reason to cripple the game. All it does is make it more expensive for other players to get in. Let's not simulate the bad aspects of an offline card game.

Most new players won't be looking for old sets, and the utility of those cards outside of some very specialized formats would be limited. The cost to entry would not appreciably rise if sets went out of print.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:19 AM
Ah, didn't mean in an official capacity, I meant to have these marked as player created and sold through the AH. More for those who want to build their collections than chase, as that's what the current reseals are, basically the stores open a booster box, pull all the chase rares, toss one or two back in the pool along with some lesser rares that have been purchased or otherwise had laying around, and then resell. You know what you're getting into.



True. My only issue with this is I could see a lot of people on the AH artificially inflating the price of their cards hoping to get an autobuy for a print run. Maybe have it tied to the crafting system? So as a card is broken down, it goes into a card pool. These would then be broken into packs which could then be sold as "Void Society Specials"

Problem there is that no one will break down the expensive rares/uncommons/commons over the cheap ones.

Not sure how to avoid the inflated AH problem. Maybe use the average of the highest 5 bid prices and 5 ask prices?

Turtlewing
06-06-2013, 08:22 AM
It seems to me that the obvious compromise is to rotate sets out of print on a slight lag from when they rotate out of "standard" competitive play. Then periodically but infrequently (say once a year) have a week or two where old set boosters go up for sale again (probably tied to some larger event with special tournaments and other fanfare, maybe on the anniversary of release)

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:24 AM
Problem there is that no one will break down the expensive rares/uncommons/commons over the cheap ones.

Not sure how to avoid the inflated AH problem. Maybe use the average of the highest 5 bid prices and 5 ask prices?

Hmmm. Really the only way to make that work is to allow you to either break cards down with the VS or outright sell them. But then again you get into people gaming the system by throwing up a handful of the card at ridiculously high prices and upping the average to make VS pay more.

Chase rares are a tough nut to crack.

Tathel
06-06-2013, 08:27 AM
It seems to me that the obvious compromise is to rotate sets out of print on a slight lag from when they rotate out of "standard" competitive play. Then periodically but infrequently (say once a year) have a week or two where old set boosters go up for sale again (probably tied to some larger event with special tournaments and other fanfare, maybe on the anniversary of release)

That would work IMO, if it's handled right. Good idea.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:28 AM
Hmmm. Really the only way to make that work is to allow you to either break cards down with the VS or outright sell them. But then again you get into people gaming the system by throwing up a handful of the card at ridiculously high prices and upping the average to make VS pay more.

Chase rares are a tough nut to crack.

You could throw the next card that gets sold on the AH into the pack rather than giving it to the highest bidder.

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:32 AM
You could throw the next card that gets sold on the AH into the pack rather than giving it to the highest bidder.

Yeah, but wouldn't that piss off the high bidder?

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:42 AM
Yeah, but wouldn't that piss off the high bidder?

Well...what they don't know, won't hurt them. :rolleyes:

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 08:53 AM
Most new players won't be looking for old sets, and the utility of those cards outside of some very specialized formats would be limited. The cost to entry would not appreciably rise if sets went out of print.

If the "Sword of Searing Unrest" is the pinnacle of hero equipment, or "Runnung with Scissors" is an amazing quickaction, even if they're from an older set, most new PVE players will want them.

I like the idea suggested that older sets could be available for a limited time corresponding with certain events or holidays. Further, offering them as prizes for specific events or achievements could be an opportunity to make them available, yet still keep them desirable.

jai151
06-06-2013, 08:59 AM
If the "Sword of Searing Unrest" is the pinnacle of hero equipment, or "Runnung with Scissors" is an amazing quickaction, even if they're from an older set, most new PVE players will want them.

I like the idea suggested that older sets could be available for a limited time corresponding with certain events or holidays. Further, offering them as prizes for specific events or achievements could be an opportunity to make them available, yet still keep them desirable.

Those won't come from packs, though. PvE gear will come from the PvE side of the game, and the PvE cards will be intentionally unbalanced and in most cases strictly better than a PvP counterpart.

Packs are PvP cards only.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 08:59 AM
It seems to me that the obvious compromise is to rotate sets out of print on a slight lag from when they rotate out of "standard" competitive play. Then periodically but infrequently (say once a year) have a week or two where old set boosters go up for sale again (probably tied to some larger event with special tournaments and other fanfare, maybe on the anniversary of release)


I think the only way it would make sense would be allowing people to gain them from special event prizes, but not open to general sale.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 09:00 AM
Those won't come from packs, though. PvE gear will come from the PvE side of the game, and the PvE cards will be intentionally unbalanced and in most cases strictly better than a PvP counterpart.

Packs are PvP cards only.

He meant uber-awesome gear is for a PvP card that's out of print.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 09:02 AM
We've had that discussion 3 weeks ago, it took 50 pages and was pretty pointless.
Should we have it again?

~

Vorpal
06-06-2013, 09:13 AM
I hope they don't stop selling boosters. There's no loss to Crypto by selling old boosters;

No, but there is a loss to the people who bought the old sets.

If you don't make blocks rotate 'out of print' then as the time goes on, the oldest blocks become essentially valueless. Block rotation is pretty standard in TCG's, but so is your oldest cards becoming more valuable due to scarcity, which helps offset it somewhat.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 09:20 AM
If boosters don't go out of print, the cards will be valueless and nobody invest in valueless stuff.

There are 2 ways :
Vicious circle of infinite supply
Virtuous circle of finite supply

~

Tathel
06-06-2013, 09:30 AM
If boosters don't go out of print, the cards will be valueless and nobody invest in valueless stuff.

There are 2 ways :
Vicious circle of infinite supply
Virtuous circle of finite supply

~

Indeed often if something is infinite it brings about some sort of crisis
Which will inevitably bring about some sort of Final crisis which few people will understand
At which point the only real option will be to relaunch.

And well this will boost sales at first eventually marvel will regain market share.

wait... i got lost somewhere...

Daer
06-06-2013, 09:31 AM
I don't understand why they don't just come out and say "Yes sets will go out of print."

jai151
06-06-2013, 09:32 AM
Indeed often if something is infinite it brings about some sort of crisis
Which will inevitably bring about some sort of Final crisis which few people will understand
At which point the only real option will be to relaunch.

And well this will boost sales at first eventually marvel will regain market share.

wait... i got lost somewhere...

Go make a movie which obliquely references but mostly ignores all of it. You'll get your money, err, I mean train of thought back.

Turtlewing
06-06-2013, 09:32 AM
I don't understand why they don't just come out and say "Yes sets will go out of print."

Most likely the final decision hasn't been made. the last formal statement we've had was "we're thinking it over and listening to your feedback"

Daer
06-06-2013, 09:35 AM
This seems like a decision that doesn't need feedback. If they said sets go out of print eventually everyone would go, "Of course."

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 09:37 AM
If boosters don't go out of print, the cards will be valueless and nobody invest in valueless stuff.

There are 2 ways :
Vicious circle of infinite supply
Virtuous circle of finite supply

~

We are all eagerly investing in "valueless stuff". There will be no Honus Wagner or Black Lotus for Hex. These cards won't have any 'value' except within the framework of Hex. They will have value in play, and certainly value in acquisition of other things in Hex, but you're not going to sell them for the down payment on a new Mustang.

I'm ok in the cards going out of print, but if we're shattering the mold of TCGs, I think it's worth a look at the "print" cycle as well.

Genocidal
06-06-2013, 09:45 AM
We are all eagerly investing in "valueless stuff". There will be no Honus Wagner or Black Lotus for Hex. These cards won't have any 'value' except within the framework of Hex. They will have value in play, and certainly value in acquisition of other things in Hex, but you're not going to sell them for the down payment on a new Mustang.

I'm sure the same thing was said about those cards when they came out too. Not that I'm guaranteeing Hex cards will skyrocket in value, but to say they will definitely have no value is foolish.

Tathel
06-06-2013, 09:52 AM
The other point is that real life value is driven up by people throwing away something. There undoubtedly will be dead accounts with valuable cards, or people who for some reason ditch good cards for craft resource.
But those are all choice losses.

There isn't a situation where rare cards will have mint or non-mint (Unless people start valuing clean double backs...)
Or where you can account on 10%(not real figure just random guess) of a specific card being lost or destroyed within 5 years of it's printing

jai151
06-06-2013, 09:53 AM
We are all eagerly investing in "valueless stuff". There will be no Honus Wagner or Black Lotus for Hex. These cards won't have any 'value' except within the framework of Hex. They will have value in play, and certainly value in acquisition of other things in Hex, but you're not going to sell them for the down payment on a new Mustang.

I'm ok in the cards going out of print, but if we're shattering the mold of TCGs, I think it's worth a look at the "print" cycle as well.

Bah! I'm not paying all that money so you can get these worthless little scraps of cardboard!

Magic. The only Magic is how it makes my hard earned money disappear! Kids and their stupid games.

(Damn near verbatim as to what a friend's father said when I was a kid and he asked his father to buy him a box of the recently out of print Beta boosters.)

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 10:01 AM
Bah! I'm not paying all that money so you can get these worthless little scraps of cardboard!

Magic. The only Magic is how it makes my hard earned money disappear! Kids and their stupid games.

(Damn near verbatim as to what a friend's father said when I was a kid and he asked his father to buy him a box of the recently out of print Beta boosters.)

Pretty sure he'd slap himself silly now, if he knew he would have gotten a 10000% return over the last 15 or so years.

jai151
06-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Pretty sure he'd slap himself silly now, if he knew he would have gotten a 10000% return over the last 15 or so years.

I'd love to know. Unfortunately, haven't talked to that particular friend in about 18 years (and he's the one who got me into Magic in the first place).

From what I understand, he got into some bad things in college. Probably should have stuck with spending his Dad's money on worthless scraps of cardboard =P

Cotton
06-06-2013, 10:07 AM
If sets don't end up rotating out, I'll sell my entire collection and never look back.

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 10:20 AM
I'm sure the same thing was said about those cards when they came out too. Not that I'm guaranteeing Hex cards will skyrocket in value, but to say they will definitely have no value is foolish.

The cards will no doubt have temporary value. While the digital nature of Hex is a tremendous asset, in this particular instance, it is a limitation. If(when) they flip the switch off, be it 3 years or 3 decades from now, the value of all cards will be zero.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 10:28 AM
The cards will no doubt have temporary value. While the digital nature of Hex is a tremendous asset, in this particular instance, it is a limitation. If(when) they flip the switch off, be it 3 years or 3 decades from now, the value of all cards will be zero.

I don't see your point? The value of cards of many dead TCGs are also zero.

MrCwis
06-06-2013, 10:29 AM
The cards will no doubt have temporary value. While the digital nature of Hex is a tremendous asset, in this particular instance, it is a limitation. If(when) they flip the switch off, be it 3 years or 3 decades from now, the value of all cards will be zero.

i hope it's 3 decades from now, and instead of flipping the switch and going home they sell it to another company to continue the hex legacy because the player base will be that awesome by then.

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 10:31 AM
I don't see your point? The value of cards of many dead TCGs are also zero.
Then you haven't read a single post by anyone about why sets should rotate out of "print".

Schweinebub
06-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Sets should go out of print to increase card value and encourage trading.
I like the idea of special sales where they bring back old cards, but they should be marked differently so they can be told apart from the original cards. Also these sales should be volume restricted rather than a set time. Make it more similar to Modern Masters than Chronicles.

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 10:35 AM
Next question, if we retire sets, do we retire the old dungeons and raids too? Who wants to run a dungeon for boots to equip a card that they can't obtain?

kelderan
06-06-2013, 10:35 AM
I can see a system of "rotating" availability coming into play. Fast forward 7 sets. We'll say sets 5 through 8 are regularly purchasable on the store. Sets 1 through 4 will then rotate one at a time on the store for purchase over the course of a year. As more sets are created and rotated out, the older sets show up less and less frequently, but never truly go away. This allows Cryptozoic to make plenty of our money during the mad rush when particularly popular or draft-able sets are available, while still retaining community value when someone puts a set 2 booster on the Action House that won't be regularly purchasable for another year.

jai151
06-06-2013, 10:36 AM
Next question, if we retire sets, do we retire the old dungeons and raids too? Who wants to run a dungeon for boots to equip a card that they can't obtain?

Yes. If we don't rotate out dungeon gear, how do we ever get equipment for new sets?

Schweinebub
06-06-2013, 10:36 AM
Equipment is for PVE only and you get the cards from the same dungeons as the equipment so there is no reason to do so.
However, in most MMO's the old PVE stuff isn't very desirable one new dungeons show up.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 10:40 AM
Then you haven't read a single post by anyone about why sets should rotate out of "print".

I wrote a few posts about rotating sets out, and I still am not following your logic.

You say the value is temporary because at some point they'll all go down to 0?

By that definition, food's value is temporary, because at some point it'll all spoil.

Tathel
06-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Next question, if we retire sets, do we retire the old dungeons and raids too? Who wants to run a dungeon for boots to equip a card that they can't obtain?

I don't know that this is comparable, you buy all PvP cards so they have approximate real money value. You spend time gathering PvE cards / equipment. So the investment is player time which has no default real world value and also is obtainable by anyone, even free accounts.

Rotating these out may create an artificial market, since if demand remains and supply is cut value goes up, which could be interesting.
But I think this might be annoying to people who see individuals selling or trading something that was 'free' but no longer available.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 10:44 AM
Hmm, yeah, I would say rotate the gear out, but make them craftable, in case there's not enough at the point the set rotates out.

(Most) gear is worthless without the card, so if the card's supply is cut off, the gear supply should also be cut off. Otherwise the supply of the gear goes up and up, but the number of cards it applies to stays the same or shrinks (from player attrition).

jai151
06-06-2013, 10:45 AM
Hmm, yeah, I would say rotate the gear out, but make them craftable.

Gear is worthless without the card, so if the card's supply is cut off, the gear supply should also be cut off.

I believe they said you could craft PVE cards, so that sounds like a perfect solution.

Lafoote
06-06-2013, 11:04 AM
I don't know that this is comparable, you buy all PvP cards so they have approximate real money value. You spend time gathering PvE cards / equipment. So the investment is player time which has no default real world value and also is obtainable by anyone, even free accounts.

Rotating these out may create an artificial market, since if demand remains and supply is cut value goes up, which could be interesting.
But I think this might be annoying to people who see individuals selling or trading something that was 'free' but no longer available.

Aren't all PVP cards PVE cards as well? Replicator's Gambit has equipment, so does Pack Raptor. I believe they'll all have equipment, though the feature is not typically used in PVP.

Tathel
06-06-2013, 11:10 AM
Aren't all PVP cards PVE cards as well? Replicator's Gambit has equipment, so does Pack Raptor. I believe they'll all have equipment, though the feature is not typically used in PVP.

Yes, although i'm not seeing how that relates to the point I made.

There's nothing to say that set 14's cards can't use equipment that set 1's cards did. Although I suppose there could be a PvE benefit to rotating out equipment so that it stays inline with standard if they are going to have enough new equipment with each block to warrant it.

I would probably consider this an argument for rotating stuff out, since if this is the case you wouldn't want your possible loot table becoming too big, like it would if it had to keep up with standard and legacy.

Tyrfang
06-06-2013, 11:13 AM
I can't imagine how large the crafting recipe book will be when the game hits 3-4 years in and sets start rotating out.

Barov
06-06-2013, 11:15 AM
My vote is still to rotate old sets out of print, But on occasion bring sets back for a limited time, like how League treats the Legacy skins.

wildcard
06-06-2013, 11:58 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to hear the whole notion of "sets" is only for the PvP/booster side of the game. The PvE is really an entirely different game, akin to WoW or any other MMORPG. The PvE cards will start at 300/350 and just grow organically from there, possibly with power creep like raising a level cap, encouraging you to advance into the newer dungeons in pursuit of the better gear. Hopefully most of the power creep will be contained to your champion's xp, but I wouldn't rule out cards creeping up too.

The PvP sets will rotate out of "print" as the pvp "standard" format moves on, and collectors enjoy watching their legacy collection grow.

The fact that PvP can be used in PvE throws something of a wrench in the works, but as long as the PvE encounters are managed with existing PvE cards, it probably won't be much of a problem.

Gwaer
06-06-2013, 12:22 PM
I'm fairly certain that they have mentioned that dungeons will rotate out as well. So 2 years from now all 40 of the planned dungeons may not be around, so you won't be able to get the specific cards out of them anymore. I don't believe they will rotate out permanently, but who knows.

Spartoi
06-06-2013, 12:54 PM
Just throwing in my 2 cents, but here it goes. The big issues, from what I can see, relate to the secondary market and appreciating value. They need a way to make old cards valuable, beyond collecting, while still maintaining game balance. A lot of the ideas that have come up are amazing for TCG, but I think the solution is in the digital aspect.

Now, there are a few cards that will keep being reprinted, I'm sure. Murder for example, simple blood troop killer. However, let's say every set has it's own assets, so it's a new artwork for each set. Then allow, in PvP, to use the old print of the card as an alternate art. So say I've played since day 1, and I've completed the doubleback achievements for Murder to make it extended art and foil. Then, 3 years down the line when they reprint it, I can use the extended art and foiled Murder as an alternate art as soon as I get Murder from the new set! Maybe even (if you wanna go crazy) bring those doubleback achievements to the new card as well, so you can choose a) the artwork from any set you own, b) extended art if unlocked at any time, and c) foil if unlocked at any time.

This way, there is an incentive to collect older cards in new formats. Maybe I just really like how the old Warbot looks 4 years from now. Well, if I don't have it, I can look around for a collector who does. However, it still leaves only the in-print sets available to purchase, and encourages you to still buy them since, even if you have the old copy of a card, you still need the new one to actually play it, since the old copy just unlocks the alternate art (for PvP at least). It also keeps with the "Free To Play" feel of the game, going out of your way and possibly paying a collector for aesthetics.

ssg13
06-06-2013, 01:28 PM
I am little confused about rotation system.

Let's say I have backed King tier. Game is released and for some reason I don't have access for the game for 1 year. I come back to game and newest set is Set 4. This is part of Block 2 right? So I have 150 booster packs of Set 1. Do they have any value? Will I be able to play with those cards on official matches? What will happen to old cards anyway when block changes?

Daer
06-06-2013, 01:36 PM
They are using a 2 block format so Sets 1-6 can all be played together.

Spartoi
06-06-2013, 01:46 PM
I am little confused about rotation system.

Let's say I have backed King tier. Game is released and for some reason I don't have access for the game for 1 year. I come back to game and newest set is Set 4. This is part of Block 2 right? So I have 150 booster packs of Set 1. Do they have any value? Will I be able to play with those cards on official matches? What will happen to old cards anyway when block changes?

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head of why this entire discussion is taking place. What value do old blocks have, are they still purchasable, and how is CZE going to handle block 3. All they've said really is that you'll be able to use your old cards in PvE.

Daer
06-06-2013, 01:54 PM
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head of why this entire discussion is taking place. What value do old blocks have, are they still purchasable, and how is CZE going to handle block 3. All they've said really is that you'll be able to use your old cards in PvE.

Actually they have also said they will have a format where you can use old cards too not just the most recent 2 blocks.

Spartoi
06-06-2013, 01:56 PM
Actually they have also said they will have a format where you can use old cards too not just the most recent 2 blocks.

Fair enough, and the "Wild West" format where you can use anything (Although I doubt it's the popular opinion, that sounds insanely fun to me!)

houjix
06-06-2013, 02:20 PM
If the game lasts long enough, I fully expect there to be extended and legacy type formats.