PDA

View Full Version : Priority and Stack Depth, or Why Magic is Successful



Ash-Prime
06-06-2013, 08:55 AM
Tl;dr: I have made bold the part that matters so you don't have to read my rambling.

Ok, that is a rather obnoxious title, and Magic has a lot of things to attribute its success to, not just "The Stack." But that is one of the major reasons the game has evolved into something a competitive as it is, as it allows for really detailed and tactical manipulation to allow for a depth of play that extends far beyond what it was when you first learned the game.

Another good example of this depth is Pokemon. Pokemon is immediately a simple game to understand and has play mechanics that allow for just about anyone to pick it up and eventually find themselves smacking Lance's Dragons around. But if you look deeper there is a level of play that gets so very complicated you can have hour long bouts against friends and not even realize it happened. Between EV and IV training and breeding for egg moves to tactical switches and predictions, the "PvP" in the game is exciting and thrilling, and if you have not gotten into it, I suggest you do.

Anyways, I mentioned both of those as examples because Hex wants to me a TCG for everyone, but at the same time it has dreams of grandeur and being a staple in eSports around the world. A critical element to that is a depth of play that encourages strategic and tactical decisions as well as a commanding knowledge of the game system.

I know so far I have said absolutely nothing, but bare with me, I will get to the point. You see, I have been on a quest to ascertain the way the Stack and Priority system will play out in this game, and I have yet to find an answer. Mainly, my first goal is finding out if one is able to retain priority after an action instead of immediately passing it to the opponent. Now, I do not mean that when I cast a spell I retain priority and the spell resolves without my opponent being able to react. That would be ridiculous. Let me give an example as I fear the problem I have not been able to get an answer is my inability to explain the situation correctly.

Say in my hand I have two cards, Generic Burn Spell Zed, and Fork (sorry WotC I lack creativity and could not think of a name you didn't already use!). So what I do is I cast the burn spell and priority now defaults to my opponent. He says well, ok and declines to act, returning priority to me. Problem is, now that the spell has been cast and both players have passed priority, it resolves. CRAP! I wanted to copy it! Well, in order to do that, one would need to retain priority after casting the burn spell, play the copy targeting it, and then pass priority.

This is a basic example of what I am trying to figure out, and I am sure it will be in the game like this, but I do not KNOW. And I struggle with not KNOWING. My girlfriend calls me a princess because I feel entitled to know everything. Cory also, apparently a princess. So maybe he will tell me. I did try calling him, but it did not work. :(

Anyways, thanks for reading this!

Shirik
06-06-2013, 08:59 AM
In most games of this nature, or at least the ones I am aware of, you retain priority after casting a spell. That doesn't mean your opponent doesn't get a chance to respond; it means that both players have to pass priority before that spell resolves, and you have to choose to pass first. I would imagine Hex works the same way, but I haven't looked closely enough at the gameplay to determine that that's how it's being played.

mmimzie
06-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Say in my hand I have two cards, Generic Burn Spell Zed, and Fork (sorry WotC I lack creativity and could not think of a name you didn't already use!). So what I do is I cast the burn spell and priority now defaults to my opponent. He says well, ok and declines to act, returning priority to me. Problem is, now that the spell has been cast and both players have passed priority, it resolves. CRAP! I wanted to copy it! Well, in order to do that, one would need to retain priority after casting the burn spell, play the copy targeting it, and then pass priority.


Anyways, thanks for reading this!

Copying and playing a spell can be done while it is in the grave.

Ash-Prime
06-06-2013, 09:04 AM
Well, in Magic (the only TCG I can speak with any authority on), you have to elect to retain priority, with MTGO you do that with a button press while casting a spell. In the game play we have seen so far, priority has been defaulted to pass after an action allowing the opponent to respond immediately. This does not mean there is no way to do that, but I am asking because we have not seen an answer.


Copying and playing a spell can be done while it is in the grave.
Well, that is not at all what I am asking about. Also, if a card is in the graveyard, there is no reason to believe something can target or interact with it unless it specifically says, "In the graveyard."

jai151
06-06-2013, 09:09 AM
Well, in Magic (the only TCG I can speak with any authority on), you have to elect to retain priority, with MTGO you do that with a button press while casting a spell. In the game play we have seen so far, priority has been defaulted to pass after an action allowing the opponent to respond immediately. This does not mean there is no way to do that, but I am asking because we have not seen an answer.


Well, that is not at all what I am asking about. Also, if a card is in the graveyard, there is no reason to believe something can target or interact with it unless it specifically says, "In the graveyard."

That's not necessarily the case. In the most recent twitch, we saw a few occasions where a player retained priority after casting/activating and responded before it resolved.

Shirik
06-06-2013, 09:11 AM
Well, in Magic (the only TCG I can speak with any authority on), you have to elect to retain priority, with MTGO you do that with a button press while casting a spell.
I read this as "you retain priority, but the UI is helpful because you don't usually care, and so there's a button to tell it to not automatically pass priority"



In the game play we have seen so far, priority has been defaulted to pass after an action allowing the opponent to respond immediately. This does not mean there is no way to do that, but I am asking because we have not seen an answer.

Yeah I would consider this to be a problem; it is very odd, in my mind at least, to give priority to your opponent always. It either means you can't respond to your own spell, or it means that you have the last word before a spell resolves, both of which aren't very nice in my opinion. Perhaps they did something similar where you need to explicitly request to not pass it after playing a card, because wanting to retain priority after playing a spell is not a common thing. But now you've piqued my interest.

ShaolinRaven
06-06-2013, 09:12 AM
Well we know there is a card that duplicates an action, Overcharge. So if we are using that card as an example, that means you would have to retain priority in order to copy the action you want since it states "Copy target action and you choose new targets".
That would suggest that you retain priority to cast quick action type modifiers at least. Though it is far from an official response there is at least a card that suggests that is the route HEX is taking.

mmimzie
06-06-2013, 09:14 AM
Here is easy card text "copy target spell used this turn." I played alot of MTG and alittle bit of it online, i even have my PTQ badge some where, while the stack is super important to magic, you could still have just as complicated and interesting actions even if you dont have your current spell in that weird hard to understand limbo state that usualy turns off new players.

Ash-Prime
06-06-2013, 09:14 AM
Shaolin, that is exactly my concern though. The card exists and we have an idea how we might want to play it. But now we are looking for clarification. Or even to bring the issue to light (not that I think it could have been overlooked, but we do not want to assume anything).

Floru
06-06-2013, 09:21 AM
Well, in Magic (the only TCG I can speak with any authority on), you have to elect to retain priority, with MTGO you do that with a button press while casting a spell. In the game play we have seen so far, priority has been defaulted to pass after an action allowing the opponent to respond immediately. This does not mean there is no way to do that, but I am asking because we have not seen an answer.


Well, that is not at all what I am asking about. Also, if a card is in the graveyard, there is no reason to believe something can target or interact with it unless it specifically says, "In the graveyard."

Here's some magic rules:

116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.

116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player’s mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.

116.4. If all players pass in succession (that is, if all players pass without taking any actions in between passing), the spell or ability on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase or step ends.

So naturally, if you want to copy your spell, do so after you cast it. Once you pass your priority, you are telling your opponent(s) that you have nothing else you want to do. If you had intent of copying your spell to start with, copy it after casting! I hope it is the same here.

Ash-Prime
06-06-2013, 09:25 AM
Floru that is one thing when we are not playing on a digital format. In fact, that is exactly the point I made. But since we are playing with a digital medium, and I can not just act as if I retain priority, I am looking for a response on that.

jaxsonbateman
06-06-2013, 09:26 AM
I'm pretty sure that we'll get some sort of comprehensive rulebook at some point in game development - perhaps during the alpha or in the beta. Right now, even if they can confirm something, it'd still be subject to change.

But pretty much, a card like Overcharge existing means that they more or less have to allow you to retain priority - whether by special command, or by default. Well, it's a little bit of an assumption there, but the burn deck that the equipment that unlocks Overcharge is designed for indicates that their design intention was to use it on one of your own spells, and not on an opponent's action.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 09:26 AM
We agree on how it works in MtG lol.
The issue is : will it work likewise in HEX

~

Ash-Prime
06-06-2013, 09:27 AM
We agree on how it works in MtG lol.
The issue is : will it work likewise in HEX

~

Exactly.

Floru
06-06-2013, 09:28 AM
Floru that is one thing when we are not playing on a digital format. In fact, that is exactly the point I made. But since we are playing with a digital medium, and I can not just act as if I retain priority, I am looking for a response on that.

It is the point you made, yeah. You may not get a proper answer until Alpha comes out and hopefully they will have some rules document.

jai151
06-06-2013, 09:28 AM
In Hex Stream four, right around 10:30 when Ben casts murder (and right after he makes the amazing Murderface!), you can clearly see it go onto the stack and "Pass Priority" come up on the screen.

Vexin
06-06-2013, 09:28 AM
Hex runs just like WOW TCG. Both players must pass priority for a card to resolve. Priority gets passed back and forth til two passes in a row happen.

In your example you have a burn spell you want to fork. You would play the burn spell. The opposing player now gets to respond to that card. Either counter or pass priority back to you. You then get to respond to your opponents play. So if your spell was not countered you then can play your fork spell. The priority then goes back to your opposing player. If he passes then you get priority back again. Then if you pass, the fork will resolve first. After the fork resolves both players have a chance to do another response. If both players pass the burn spell resolves.

Shirik
06-06-2013, 09:34 AM
Hex runs just like WOW TCG. Both players must pass priority for a card to resolve. Priority gets passed back and forth til two passes in a row happen.

In your example you have a burn spell you want to fork. You would play the burn spell. The opposing player now gets to respond to that card. Either counter or pass priority back to you. You then get to respond to your opponents play. So if your spell was not countered you then can play your fork spell. The priority then goes back to your opposing player. If he passes then you get priority back again. Then if you pass, the fork will resolve first. After the fork resolves both players have a chance to do another response. If both players pass the burn spell resolves.
This is not how the WoW TCG works; you retain priority after playing a card. You most certainly would not be allowed to respond to your own card after waiting for the other player to pass priority. You would have to respond to your own card immediately, without waiting for your opponent.

http://wowtcg.cryptozoic.com/articles/level-pre-priority-processing

Now that being said, I can't speak to how Hex does it, which is far more interesting. Just because WoW TCG does it one way doesn't necessarily mean Hex does it that way, too.