PDA

View Full Version : Data Editor's Paradise



Shaqattaq
06-06-2013, 10:29 AM
by Mike Rosenberg

Data.

For many, it means crunching numbers, analyzing trends, and doing something when you'd rather be browsing Reddit or playing a video game.

However, data has its benefits of...well, being kind of important for a lot of jobs out there. It's been pretty key for me while working as well. As a long-time gamer and writer, I've spent the better part of the past three years doing event coverage for trading card game tournaments on weekends. One of the things we are tasked with completing when doing event coverage is some data entry and data analysis. Specifically speaking, when it comes to constructed trading card game events, we record what people are playing, and then do a metagame analysis with that data.

http://hextcg.com/data-editor-paradise/

Estar1
06-06-2013, 11:13 AM
The Warlock Inquistor looks to be pretty good. Intresting note if give rage 2 to it even if it dies it still keeps those attack buffs for the next time it comes out. Or you can do some intresting come into play effects and then sacrfice/chump block to do it again.

BlackRoger
06-06-2013, 11:14 AM
I like the idea about the Deck draws, but I think it might serve us better if instead of giving us example draws it would give more statistics about draws.

What percentage of draws would get me at least 2 of my mana types?
What are the chances I'll get a 2 or a 3 drop?

These might require a complicated filter system, but just seeing a random draw isn't all that helpfull...

LargoLaGrande
06-06-2013, 11:23 AM
The Warlock Inquistor looks to be pretty good. Intresting note if give rage 2 to it even if it dies it still keeps those attack buffs for the next time it comes out. Or you can do some intresting come into play effects and then sacrfice/chump block to do it again.

I really like the idea of the Wild gem that lets it fight something, turning it into a removal spell that repeats. The Ruby gem that give +1/+0 and swift strike looks really strong on it too.

MugenMusou
06-06-2013, 02:52 PM
The following is the copy & paste from the General board. But I like to have the following features added. :)

First of all, the interface looks very clean and amazing. But I'm a human so when I see a great thing, I want more and want it to better. Here are some features that I like to have it added.

First and most importantly, please make this offline capable!!

Now onto the probabilities.

1. Probability of a specific card draw.

Ideally, you click a card in your deck, specify how many copy you want. It spits out a table with probability. With perhaps Y axis is turn. X axis is number of copies you want do draw.

2. Probability of threshold & resource combination by turn X.

This may be a bit more involved math, and it has been a while since I took my Statistics course so don't ask me how to calculate this.

3. Probability of you can cast a specific card by turn X.

This is a combination of #1 & #2. You have to meet both conditions but surely the most practical number. You click a card X, and it spits out actual probability that you can cast the card by turn Y taking into the consideration both the probability of you drawing the target card by turn X as well as the required resources/threshold by the turn X.

4. Probability of resource screw

The definition of this may be more trickier than actual calculation. But it is essentially 1 - Pr(resource goal by turn X).

I'm sure there are many other numbers that can be calculated. Perhaps many of which may not be useful to majority of people, but since we are on completely digital, it would be nice to have these numbers calculated on the fly. In fact, if AIDA really works the way I believe, they should already have the calculation built in for her or him which ever the gender of AIDA is. So a people like me who likes evidence based practice can at least convince ourselves.

What other probability or feature do you like to see implemented?

Delrusant
06-06-2013, 02:56 PM
I like the idea about the Deck draws, but I think it might serve us better if instead of giving us example draws it would give more statistics about draws.

What percentage of draws would get me at least 2 of my mana types?
What are the chances I'll get a 2 or a 3 drop?

These might require a complicated filter system, but just seeing a random draw isn't all that helpfull...

On 7 cards, lets take a 60 cards deck with 23 ressources, on first card you have 23/60 for a ressource on second 22/59 or 23/59... The problem with stats, is that they are "ideal", they don't give you the randomness.

There are so many people that have a hard time understanding that getting 2, 4, 5 on successive D100 cast is as probable as getting 42, 99, 7 (or 50, 50, 50). Because there are no simple way for the mind to really be random, it always tries to draw links, to connect data and facts even if they have no relevance. That is why I do think for most players the random 7 card draw is a nice touch, they can launch it 20/50/100 tile and see the trends but also getting completely "uncommon" draw. Maybe they could offer a more advanced tool for Theorycrafter/pro players/ "math geniuses" but I think tools will be built by the community for those before the dev gets the time to do theirs.

MugenMusou
06-06-2013, 03:08 PM
On 7 cards, lets take a 60 cards deck with 23 ressources, on first card you have 23/60 for a ressource on second 22/59 or 23/59... The problem with stats, is that they are "ideal", they don't give you the randomness.

There are so many people that have a hard time understanding that getting 2, 4, 5 on successive D100 cast is as probable as getting 42, 99, 7 (or 50, 50, 50). Because there are no simple way for the mind to really be random, it always tries to draw links, to connect data and facts even if they have no relevance. That is why I do think for most players the random 7 card draw is a nice touch, they can launch it 20/50/100 tile and see the trends but also getting completely "uncommon" draw. Maybe they could offer a more advanced tool for Theorycrafter/pro players/ "math geniuses" but I think tools will be built by the community for those before the dev gets the time to do theirs.

Sorry if I misunderstand your point, but I believe I am in favor of what BlackRoger requesting, and calculation of Turn X how many Y cards are totally doable. I can write a little equation here but that would probably do nothing for anyone except risk of me making mistake. :)

But in the end you can get Probablity of 3 resources by turn X = 90% will provide you the confidence, 90% of games that I play I will have 3 resources by the turn. In TCG, if you can have 90% winning rate that is amazing. So you can base on that. Alternatively (more likely) if you have only 40% chance of the enough resources at turn X, you should probably not plan using the card. But separate probabilities can provide a lot of different information depending on how you combine and how you use. Yes. its all theoretical and changes game to game, but if you play enough number of games it gets closer and closer to the number; hence, statistics.

Mike411
06-06-2013, 03:40 PM
I think some cool "buttons" would be:

"View all equipment you own that can benefit current deck"

"View all cards you own that can benefit from this piece of equipment"

Zomnivore
06-06-2013, 10:36 PM
The spelling error on Jadiim :P well I guess if its not technically incorrect its a grammar error?

Deathmustard
06-06-2013, 10:57 PM
I think some cool "buttons" would be:

"View all equipment you own that can benefit current deck"

"View all cards you own that can benefit from this piece of equipment"

That is a great idea!

Bossett
06-07-2013, 12:57 AM
I would really like to see an option to determine the chance of an effect or card being in play - so if I select a card in my deck I can see the chance it'll be out turn 1, 2, 3... etc. - based on threshold, resources, other cards, etc.

Also - some import/export tools so we can export to a website, import from a website, etc.

Delrusant
06-07-2013, 04:12 AM
Sorry if I misunderstand your point, but I believe I am in favor of what BlackRoger requesting, and calculation of Turn X how many Y cards are totally doable. I can write a little equation here but that would probably do nothing for anyone except risk of me making mistake. :)

But in the end you can get Probablity of 3 resources by turn X = 90% will provide you the confidence, 90% of games that I play I will have 3 resources by the turn. In TCG, if you can have 90% winning rate that is amazing. So you can base on that. Alternatively (more likely) if you have only 40% chance of the enough resources at turn X, you should probably not plan using the card. But separate probabilities can provide a lot of different information depending on how you combine and how you use. Yes. its all theoretical and changes game to game, but if you play enough number of games it gets closer and closer to the number; hence, statistics.

I totally agree that it is doable and not that difficult, what I am saying is must it be a focus for the dev when most people (those that have nether really done stats) can't really translate it. Because you take the ressource point of view, it is the easiest one, but take a particuliar card, or a non mono ressource, the stats are a lot harder to interpret. And I do think many player rather have a "mean" hand that is playable even if it losse than having 60% of playable hand event if they win 80% of the time and 40% of unplayable hands.

That is why a probabilty tool is an "add-on" that can be really useful but I do think some will pop up really quickly from the community and that if the dev do not have thay may not want to spend time to build one when they have a schedule to abide to for release.

facade
06-07-2013, 10:33 AM
I think some cool "buttons" would be:

"View all equipment you own that can benefit current deck"

"View all cards you own that can benefit from this piece of equipment"


I agree with the first point, although the second one might not be as useful as you would hope. CZE has stated (somewhere...) that in the first set, every piece of equipment only increases the capabilities of a single card.

MugenMusou
06-07-2013, 01:13 PM
I totally agree that it is doable and not that difficult, what I am saying is must it be a focus for the dev when most people (those that have nether really done stats) can't really translate it. Because you take the ressource point of view, it is the easiest one, but take a particuliar card, or a non mono ressource, the stats are a lot harder to interpret. And I do think many player rather have a "mean" hand that is playable even if it losse than having 60% of playable hand event if they win 80% of the time and 40% of unplayable hands.

That is why a probabilty tool is an "add-on" that can be really useful but I do think some will pop up really quickly from the community and that if the dev do not have thay may not want to spend time to build one when they have a schedule to abide to for release.

Got you. Yeah it is definitely a luxary than must have for everyone. As a blog writer, it's just easier for me to use those tool to explain things than calculating my own. :)

Joolz
06-07-2013, 03:14 PM
I was probably more excited for this article than any other since a good deck editor makes a world of difference for making a constructed deck. A couple things:

1. I'd really like it if there were some mode that allowed to you to do a full playtest game against yourself so you can play with/against certain decks when friends aren't available.
2. It would also be super duper if you could "check out" cards you don't have in your collection to use in such a playtest mode. Maybe allow each account to have a certain amount of "blank" cards that can act as a temporary copy of a card. That way you don't have to go out and buy a playset of expensive rares only to find out it doesn't work very well in your deck.

Bossett
06-07-2013, 06:06 PM
1. I'd really like it if there were some mode that allowed to you to do a full playtest game against yourself so you can play with/against certain decks when friends aren't available.
I really want a 'custom game' v AI where I can choose their deck and maybe their 'archetype' (so, if they're aggressive, like to hold onto instants, etc.) - but for deck building, I would really, really like a way to do a Monte Carlo with 2 AI players squaring off against each other and giving you stats based on the outcome, that way you would have an objective way of scoring the baseline strength of a deck, and more importantly, the improvement adding/remove a card had.

2. It would also be super duper if you could "check out" cards you don't have in your collection to use in such a playtest mode. Maybe allow each account to have a certain amount of "blank" cards that can act as a temporary copy of a card. That way you don't have to go out and buy a playset of expensive rares only to find out it doesn't work very well in your deck.
Tying in with the above; maybe not give the card to players to use - but let them add it to the Monte Carlo match-ups, so you'll know that the rare you're coveting will be awesome, while still demonstrating it's rarity.

MugenMusou
06-07-2013, 07:40 PM
I was probably more excited for this article than any other since a good deck editor makes a world of difference for making a constructed deck. A couple things:

1. I'd really like it if there were some mode that allowed to you to do a full playtest game against yourself so you can play with/against certain decks when friends aren't available.
2. It would also be super duper if you could "check out" cards you don't have in your collection to use in such a playtest mode. Maybe allow each account to have a certain amount of "blank" cards that can act as a temporary copy of a card. That way you don't have to go out and buy a playset of expensive rares only to find out it doesn't work very well in your deck.

I love both 1&2.

Annihilatron
06-09-2013, 08:18 AM
Since this is the first completely computer-based TCG (there may have been others, but this will be the winner), you could do really great things with data.

i.e. analyze all tournament placing decks for resource-efficiency. I.e. resources to creature power, resources to spell power, how many resources to run depending on thresholds / costs. I ran a neural network against approx 500 MTG decks, but I had to enter all the data manually and didn't have much success. Scratch that, I had success, the NN actually spit out a number between 20 and 24 depending on your mana curve, and was completely right about 70% of the time (iirc). Anyway, with that amount of data at your disposal, you could really do some interesting research into super-advanced AI for deckbuilding.

DrakarT
06-21-2013, 06:17 AM
What about Setting custom Tags so you could sort cards for a Deck or your favorites

NyXDaE
06-23-2013, 04:40 PM
Was it clear to anyone if one card can be used in multiple decks? Some Digital CTGs do not let you use the same card in more than one deck...I would like to be able to have the flexibility to have the same card be in more than one deck :-p

Delrusant
06-24-2013, 12:04 AM
You only need 4 card to make a set of a specific card for all your decks, so yes cards can be used in different decks without drawbacks