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Beastmaster
06-06-2013, 11:02 PM
Has anyone else ried out other digital TCGs lately like Cabals, Scrolls and Infinity Wars and found that as a new player with only a starter deck you hit a hump once you have completed the single player tutorial/practice area and gained a few cards to add to your deck but no where near enough to implement a new strategy or significantly change your deck without buying lots of boosters and hoping for the right cards?

I know I wont have this problem with Hex with all the boosters I'm getting, but I worry that new non backers may experience this problem and be turned off.

It may be as simple as lacking a proper Auction House or a special Newbie PvP area but it could be more..


When people begin playing MTG, it is often with decks leant to them by their friends and possibly free commons/ uncommon from other players if they are lucky but the key is that they get to play with a variety of different decks of a reasonable standard and find cards and colors and tribes that fascinate them and give them a clear goal to work towards for their first deck.

I know that we are going to have an awesome never ending PvE element to Hex and while that is awesome, adding cards that you find to your deck if they are better than the ones you have is not really 'deck-building' and is probably the thing I hate most about scrolls and Infinity Wars so far.

I want to play with some awesome high-level cards to decide which colors are right for me and then be able to put together a well thought out deck with lots of synergy even if most of the cards are common.

Maybe its as simple as the lack of an auction house, or maybe there is more value in being able to play with a borrowed deck and experience some awesome combos than we realise - especially when it comes to convincing players to put up real money towards building a decent deck rather than 'improving' a starter deck randomly bit by bit and missing out on the real fun of putting a deck together.

Khazrakh
06-06-2013, 11:08 PM
I did play Might & Magic Duel of Champions quite a lot and still do so from time to time. They have a fair rate of giving free boosters to you and so I ended up in the Top 1000 without ever spending any money on it.

Hex will be completley differnt though. You have that huge PvE part that's F2P so that's where you can learn the colors and get into the gameplay. PvP will be Pay2Compete, it has to be if Hex is to be a success. You are meant to play drafts and constructed tournaments here. Can't really compare that to a game like Scrolls.

Ozmono
06-06-2013, 11:13 PM
Apparently the guild bank decks will allow guild members to use those decks. I think that is cool and has the potential to allow alot of people to play with high end decks with minimal investment. You also mentioned the pve part which might allow someone willing to invest time to end up being competitive (if I can use that word for pve) in some of the games content. Also I imagine with the amount of spare cards people will have from all their Kickstarter rewards and boosters that people will be able to pick up good decks for cheap on the auction house and it should be mentioned that people can get stuff from playing pve to pick up those cards. For all these reasons I don't think it will be as uninviting to new players not willing to invest alot initially as MTGO is.

Beastmaster
06-06-2013, 11:17 PM
Yeah, I get it. Its not about paying for cards, its about being able to properly build a deck - even a crappy one - and play with it rather than suffering through 'building' a deck by adding one card at a time which just really turns me off.

A lot of these games seem to leave trading and auction houses till well after they have launched and that is probably what causes most of these problems - but it could also help if Crypto could find a way to replicate the exposure to new cards and deck ideas that occurs in real card shops or amongst friends when they introduce you to the game.

I realise that guilds are supposed to provide a lot of the community support in lieu of card-shops but i wonder if many new players will be overwhelmed by the number of different guilds or guilds by the number of new players.

Mr.Funsocks
06-06-2013, 11:26 PM
Well, guild banks having "loaner" decks would be pretty neat and could help alleviate this. The fact that the PvE experience continues, rather than just ending 20 minutes in, will help too.

But having some high level player-constructed decks that you can play as a trial might be kinda neat and give people a taste. Could have a "trial area" where there's a monthly rotating set of 6 high-end decks (not just starter decks) where you can play against others using the same decks, but can't take them out into PvP/tournaments or earn any rewards.

BenRGamer
06-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Just to clarify, Guild Banks having 'Loaner' decks was specifically stated to be just for dueling your other guildies, so while you could use them in a casual game against a guildmate, I don't believe you'll be able to use them anywhere else.

Rapkannibale
06-06-2013, 11:30 PM
Afaik the guild bank decks can only be used to play against other guild members. The feature is more meant to allow people to test decks with their guild mates not really to allow people to play the regular PvE and PvP. Maybe i misunderstood though.

Ozmono
06-06-2013, 11:31 PM
Just to clarify, Guild Banks having 'Loaner' decks was specifically stated to be just for dueling your other guildies, so while you could use them in a casual game against a guildmate, I don't believe you'll be able to use them anywhere else.
Even if that is the case, which I think is fair and it makes sense, for new players coming to grips with the game that is all that is really warranted.

Fireblast
06-06-2013, 11:40 PM
Afaik the guild bank decks can only be used to play against other guild members. The feature is more meant to allow people to test decks with their guild mates not really to allow people to play the regular PvE and PvP. Maybe i misunderstood though.

You're right

~

dolan103081
06-06-2013, 11:44 PM
Just to clarify, Guild Banks having 'Loaner' decks was specifically stated to be just for dueling your other guildies, so while you could use them in a casual game against a guildmate, I don't believe you'll be able to use them anywhere else.

You are right on this that decks in the Guild bank are only available for use against other guild members. But there is nothing stopping anyone from giving friends or even new guild members free cards or even letting a friend/guildy borrow your whole deck. you would just have to trade it to them. Granted this is more of a risk then in real life to the person loaning out the cards/deck but if you trust the person there is nothing from stopping this from happening.

Beastmaster
06-06-2013, 11:50 PM
Maybe Crypto could look into creating a 'newbie' guild that has a locked guild library and that kicks players out after 1 or 2 months unless they re-join as mentors/recruiters for proper guilds.

This would ease players into joining guilds, provide a place to ask for advice and get to know different guilds as well as play with 'better' decks and opponents without getting wiped by better players who dont realise/care that they are new.

They could even have a 'graduation' tournament and guilds could vie for the better graduates with offers of free commons etc ;)

Call it Hex Academy or Hex Battle School

GallyX0
06-07-2013, 01:33 AM
My only digital experience was with MTGO. I had played physical magic for probably 7-10 years prior, always a positive experience. That said, I thought MTGO was awful. Ugly, anti-intuitive, and expensive. Duel of the Planeswalkers was a step in the right direction for new players, but had no room to grow for experienced players. It let you learn new mechanics well, but since there was no deck editing, you were really coralled into just a few play types. I just hope Hex has a roll over for text to explain mechanics, since otherwise, the stack and turn structure looks really easy to follow for new players. A two tiered structure to drafts with swiss like payout which makes new players able to win at least a little bit, and a more robust pay out for higher players (its digital, so crypto wins if a few great players can get rewarded more for spot 1-2, its basically house money.) either way, I'm backing this BECAUSE it seems like a better structure for new players. Not to mention the PvE will teach some basic methods.

Swordmage
06-07-2013, 02:00 AM
Everyone looks at the Guild bank as being greater than it is, I think. It'll be a wicked good tool, don't get me wrong. But am I the only one that in every MMO I've ever played that found that the guilds that freely grant membership are wishful thinking unorganized please be my friend groups made by one person with too much time and that all guilds worth being in were exclusionary elitists?

Ozmono
06-07-2013, 02:11 AM
Everyone looks at the Guild bank as being greater than it is, I think. It'll be a wicked good tool, don't get me wrong. But am I the only one that in every MMO I've ever played that found that the guilds that freely grant membership are wishful thinking unorganized please be my friend groups made by one person with too much time and that all guilds worth being in were exclusionary elitists?

I think there is some truth in that but not as a catch all blanket statement that can be applied to every guild in every MMO. I've been in some good guilds but I've also seen the other two types of guilds you've mentioned. As for the first guild type you mentioned the only time I have a problem with someone trying to make friends by committing alot of their time into running a guild is when I want to be more serious. The other type of guild you mentioned I have far more problems with. As I said though, not all guilds are like that.

volkmar77
06-07-2013, 02:28 AM
Personally, I would see the guild as a way to get a group of friends that like to play together and give them the possibility to do their own crazy tournaments. I know I loved doing that with my friends when I had someone to play magic with.

The competitive tournaments were always quite this tense affair where everyone is so serious and wants to WIN!! but the tournaments with my friends were the really fun ones.

So having tools in this game to make that possible is great for me.

AstaSyneri
06-07-2013, 03:20 AM
I played some Scrolls, and will continue to do so on occassion, but comparing that to Hex would be unfair. Scrolls is a nice little game, but can't stand up to what Hex is promising.

Hex tries to straddle the line and cater to two crowds: The hardcore PvP players who love tournaments and the excitement that comes from that and on the other side the players who love building decks and playing the game, but who don't like the pressure of or lack the time for tournaments.

Any CCG has a learning curve, and adding to your experience by playing is fun in my book. In the PvE part of the game that should be quite easy - you get introductory dungeons where you can get the cards to flesh out your deck(s), until you get into the harder dungeons where you might hit a wall. Then you either go back to your card pool / the auction house, experiment with Items or go to the ultimate solution: Open boosters.

In PvP you are bound to hit this wall much quicker, but there are several solutions for that:


You play a lot of drafts - here the playing field is leveled, theoretically (you still need to know the game and the cards very well to succeed)
CZE offers tournaments for different ELO levels. That way you can easily separate players into Beginners/Casual, Intermediate and Advanced players.
CZE allows for intra-Guild tournaments - basically where the Guild lays down the parameters and you play with your Guild mates/friends


In the end you have to realize you are part of the business model for the game - after the Kickstarter it relies on people to buy the cards. And imho $2 for a booster is a pretty fair offer given the complexity of the game (I have been involved in the process for a different game).

Giving people high end decks to play will imho more likely frustrate them, rather than motivate them.

Beastmaster
06-07-2013, 03:36 AM
Giving people high end decks to play will imho more likely frustrate them, rather than motivate them.

I disagree - especially in the right kind of environment like playing against the person who made it to learn about a different type of deck.

While I'll admit that a counter deck would not be friendly to beginners who dont know enough cards to know what to counter, there are many agro and combo variants that are easy to learn and fun.

I have no problem with paying $2 for a booster (better than MTG) i think there is benefit to either ensuring that people are drawn far enough into the experience before asking them to pay or getting them to pay right up front so that they feel that they have a commitment and want to get their money's worth.

There may be other people like myself who dont mind paying money but hate being nickeled and dimed - an option to pay for a 'PvP pack' that has some value (mainly good commons and uncommons) but can only be bough once per account. Like a varient of a MTG fat-pack or a specific supplement to a particular starter deck to make it more PvP competitive.

AstaSyneri
06-07-2013, 03:51 AM
I disagree - especially in the right kind of environment like playing against the person who made it to learn about a different type of deck.

While I'll admit that a counter deck would not be friendly to beginners who dont know enough cards to know what to counter, there are many agro and combo variants that are easy to learn and fun.

We had different decks in mind I guess ;-). The key would be to have an easy to play deck, I agree. A Rush deck would certainly do that (what you call Aggro, from what I can tell). But you would likely play against other high-end decks and have difficulty following what's happening. That's pretty much my point: You can't really get around all the learning ;-).