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View Full Version : PvE Strategy - Spectral Lotus = play 4 of in every deck



nicosharp
06-12-2013, 03:09 PM
(originally posted here (http://forum.cornerstoneguild.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=35) on Cornerstone Guild forums)

The most powerful aspect of spectral lotus for PvE is that it gives you an opportunity to make 56 card decks.

You never have to activate it to put into play for a free cycle. It never has to be destroyed.

Spectral Lotus is a 0 cost free draw. Meaning, 4 copies allows you to cut 2 cards and 2 shards from any deck you build. Any card that has no cost and gives you a free draw is considered a pure cycle card.

Cycle = refers to the ability to replace a card drawn with another card in your deck. It also refers to a way to quickly comb through your deck for the cards you need. Pure cycle, means there is no cost to you (life/mana/etc.)

When you build your PvE decks, you should always consider including 4 spectral lotus.

People will ask, why play 4 cards that do nothing for me?
The answer is: It thins your deck allowing you earlier access to the cards you really want and helping you curve. There are now 4 cards you are less likely to draw, giving you a better percentage chance to top-deck what you need.

(From the Hextcg.com Rewards page):
Spectral Lotus Garden – PVE Only

Each day that you login to your HEX account, your Spectral Lotus Garden will provide you a Spectral Lotus, a PVE-only card. So, why would you need a new one every day? Well, the catch is that once you’ve played the Spectral Lotus and then activated it, the card is gone forever (though it does leave behind this nifty Black Tiger). In other words, it’s worth saving these things for when you really need them, whether you’re going all out trying to achieve an impossibly braggable record in the survival-mode arena or trying to conquer some of the most super-difficult super-secret challenges that are hidden throughout the campaign.

Once our Kickstarter campaign ends, there will never, ever, EVER be another way to get a Spectral Lotus. Period. Except, of course, for the Auction House. Wouldn’t it be nice to be the guy who decided to buy in and is now generating passive income until the end of time—incidentally giving you ridiculous bragging rights over all of your friends who didn’t kickstart for a Lotus Garden? There’s always going to be demand for these, because there are very few Lotus Gardens.

Oh, and as far as the Black Tiger goes, he’s a pretty reasonable bloke himself, but what are you gonna do with all those? Well, your Spectral Garden will always let you convert four of them into a brand new Spectral Lotus. The Spectral Garden is the pinnacle of HEX card collection, plain and simple. We spent a lot of time making sure the total package for this would be perfect, because we knew we wanted a seriously awesome reward for the true TCG fans that are going to kickstart us at this tier.

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/SpectralLotus_Gear_Web.png

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/BlackTiger_Gear_Web.png

http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/SpectralLotusGarden1.png

ConnorJS
06-12-2013, 03:10 PM
Wouldn't you have to wait 4 days for every game though?

nicosharp
06-12-2013, 03:12 PM
Wouldn't you have to wait 4 days for every game though?

Playing a Lotus for the draw doesn't make it disappear.

IndigoShade
06-12-2013, 03:12 PM
You only have to wait 4 days to play your first game since you won't be consuming your lotus, just using it to draw a card and sit there being all pretty. Have fun sitting on the sidelines while everyone else plays for the first 4 days though. :p

nicosharp
06-12-2013, 03:13 PM
You only have to wait 4 days to play your first game since you won't be consuming your lotus, just using it to draw a card and sit there being all pretty. Have fun sitting on the sidelines while everyone else plays for the first 4 days though. :p

I have 4 lotus gardens... funny guy

Yoss
06-12-2013, 03:18 PM
Totally agree with nico here. 4 per deck seems "mandatory" if you're min/maxing. Zero cost cantrips are crazy-good, and if you're running the +2 life boost equipment, it's just plain ridiculous.

IndigoShade
06-12-2013, 03:26 PM
I have 4 lotus gardens... funny guy

I was responding to ConnorJS's post really, I guess I should have clicked Reply With Quote.

primer
06-12-2013, 03:26 PM
As someone who's kinda new to TCGs I find the idea of wanting a smaller deck a bit strange. I realise that people always use 40 or 60 card decks but couldn't you have better creatures in your deck if you use more cards? Also if there was no minimum deck size how small would you think people would go?

IndigoShade
06-12-2013, 03:30 PM
If there was no minimum deck size, the number you would want to use would largely depend on your objective. If you were running a combo deck that could kill your opponent in 7 cards if you happened to draw all 7 of them, than maybe you would be fine with a 7 card deck. As long as they can't counterspell you or something.

The idea of playing a smaller deck is that it removes some of the randomness, making your deck run more consistently and predictably; allowing you to draw the cards that you want to draw more reliably etc.

Punk
06-12-2013, 03:30 PM
This card will probably see it's way into every PvE deck I make. It will be the biggest asset in artifact decks. Zero cast artifact that replaces itself is extremely good and provides tons of synergy with other artifact related cards revealed so far.

Diesbudt
06-12-2013, 03:30 PM
As someone who's kinda new to TCGs I find the idea of wanting a smaller deck a bit strange. I realise that people always use 40 or 60 card decks but couldn't you have better creatures in your deck if you use more cards? Also if there was no minimum deck size how small would you think people would go?

The smaller the size, the more efficeint the decks combos and chance to draw the good cards are. 93/100 you will never used more than half your deck per game (at 60cards a deck) so making it bigger is a bad move.

SeaOfInsanity
06-12-2013, 03:33 PM
I've been a casual TCG player so far so I understand it a little.
It's a case of springing a particular strategy your deck is desgined around quicker by increasing the chances of drawing the card you need.

Miwa
06-12-2013, 03:36 PM
Of course, the card text may change before release to make them explode when played or something...

Aradon
06-12-2013, 03:41 PM
As someone who's kinda new to TCGs I find the idea of wanting a smaller deck a bit strange. I realise that people always use 40 or 60 card decks but couldn't you have better creatures in your deck if you use more cards? Also if there was no minimum deck size how small would you think people would go?

The reverse is actually true. Once you start playing your deck, you'll find that some of your creatures are just better than others. You'll want to draw those the most frequently. The smaller your deck is, the more frequently you'll draw those better creatures, so you cut out the worse cards to draw the better ones more often. Playing 4 lotuses instead of 4 of your worst creature means that you'll skip those less optimal cards and draw into the better cards in your deck.

People would go as low as they felt they could. Depending on the cards available, they might go down to a guaranteed hand of 7 with a 7-card deck, or they'd stick to about 15-20, however many they think they need to win without drawing themselves out.

The whole ideas is just this: you build your deck using your strongest cards, then fill out the rest of the deck with the less ideal cards. Any cards you add past the minimum limit are going to be worse than the original 60 (or, you cut whichever is the worse) and you'd end up diluting the strength of your card pool. If you use extra cards, you actually lower the average strength of your creatures, rather than increase it.

Plaga
06-12-2013, 03:45 PM
Of course, the card text may change before release to make them explode when played or something...
Or just move the draw a card effect inside the exhaust trigger.

Jbizzi
06-12-2013, 03:48 PM
THe best benefit toward the game and the auction house would be stabilizing a market for these items. There will only be a limited amount of them per the description on the card. They will also be somewhat mandatory for pve decks as you are describing above.

Now most better players will only use them in those decks that are going up against a really tough challenge or want to push a raid earlier than their cards might allow. So this creates a base economy around one card. There will be the hardcores that want to "raid" every night and will have to purchase the card (or 4) off the AH to do so (assuming they don't have 4 lotus gardens, if any)

nearlysober
06-12-2013, 03:52 PM
Yeah, there is really no reason not to have 4x Spectral Lotus in your PvE decks.

The aspect of it "thinning" your deck is not something I had thought about before. However, if you have Lotus Garden(s) then after enough time playing there will be no reason not to actually use it's ability to make your PvE decks even more powerful.

Evilgm
06-12-2013, 03:57 PM
Yes, Spectral Lotus is probably going to be a 4 of in every deck.
Yes, you don't have to destroy it get a benefit.
Yes, it will be a card people will buy from the Auction House.

None of this is new information.

We didn't need another thread to discuss the merits that have been discussed multiple times on this and other forums.

wayne
06-12-2013, 03:58 PM
Or just move the draw a card effect inside the exhaust trigger.

Seems like the best solution, outside of leaving things as is and forcing people to play with 4x lotus all the time.

IndigoShade
06-12-2013, 04:02 PM
Yes, Spectral Lotus is probably going to be a 4 of in every deck.
Yes, you don't have to destroy it get a benefit.
Yes, it will be a card people will buy from the Auction House.

None of this is new information.

We didn't need another thread to discuss the merits that have been discussed multiple times on this and other forums.

Hello, I like HEX. Do you like HEX? I can't play HEX. I like to read and post about HEX while waiting for HEX. Do you?

Avaian
06-12-2013, 04:03 PM
This will work for times you need only win the game.

However for things like the Arena dungeon, you gain crowd favor depending on how 'flashy' your wins are, you may not want a deck that just wins quickly, but a deck that can fill the roles you need to obtain the largest reward. (Arena Dungeon - http://hextcg.com/enter-the-arena/)

Also against the Kraken's Lair dungeon, not having those 4 extra troops in your deck may hurt you if you are going for the largest reward. (Kraken's Lair - http://hextcg.com/the-krakens-lair/)

Optimal decks for winning will have 56 cards + 4 lotus, however not all of the decks you use will be that way, you will need to change your deck depending on the objective.

With the game being digital, CZE can have alot of fun with the Dungeon/Raid Mechanics.

Showsni
06-12-2013, 04:31 PM
There is a slight downside to using the Lotus as a pure deck thinner - less information before mulligans. Say you start with a hand containing 4 Lotuses and 3 Resources. Is it a keeper? Hard to tell; those Lotuses are proxy cards for whatever you're going to draw into. If that happens to be another 4 Resources, you're in bad shape!

Aradon
06-12-2013, 04:40 PM
There is a slight downside to using the Lotus as a pure deck thinner - less information before mulligans. Say you start with a hand containing 4 Lotuses and 3 Resources. Is it a keeper? Hard to tell; those Lotuses are proxy cards for whatever you're going to draw into. If that happens to be another 4 Resources, you're in bad shape!

This is quite true. I'm of the opinion, though, that the benefit in PvE is significantly bigger, due to equipment powering up only a few of your cards. Drawing into those cards will be more important than ever. Normally I wouldn't really advocate this sort of deck thinning, but I'm changing my opinion for Hex.

Tinuvas
06-12-2013, 04:41 PM
I've actually been thinking a lot about deck size, raids, etc. and I have a sneaking suspicion that Hex is going to make us break the holy rule of deckbuilding by building bigger decks. Observe the quotes from the dragon slaying article:

The raid boss is represented with a progression meter, ranging from 0 to 200, and starts at 100. Whenever the raid boss is dealt damage, the progression meter ticks down by 1. The actual amount of damage is not relevant, only that it is dealt any damage at all. Essentially, a Troop attacking for 10 will give -1 to the meter just as a Troop attacking for 2 will give the same. By the same token, whenever the raid boss deals damage to a Champion, his meter will tick up by 1. Again, the actual amount of damage does not matter, so any amount to a Champion will give the meter +1

So, if you have an angry swarm of Shin'hare and attack with all of them, the way I read this is that you will have a chance to tick him down by say...5-7 points on his progression meter. This is after you have established a solid base that got you to the swarm of bunnies, say 5-10 turns minimum. This also assumes that he hasn't done any damage to you and hasn't developed his board AT ALL. So if you find a way to deal damage to him with multiple troops per turn while holding him off, you MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT, get him dead before you deck yourself with a 60 card deck. I have my doubts though. You have to deal damage to him 100(!) times WITHOUT TAKING DAMAGE ONCE to kill him. Split that in 3 and you still have to nail him 33-34 times, without getting hit in return, before he dies. Most games of MtG have you hitting the guy 6-15 times or so before winning.

What I see is that we all run into these dungeons and raids the first couple of times, get decked BADLY, and suddenly, deckbuilding adds a whole freakin new dimension to it: How many cards do I run? We'll need to keep numbers low to get to our good cards, but high enough to really play with the raid bosses. Will we see 83 card decks? 122? I have no idea, but if you have to hit the guy 33 times with a 60 card deck, you'd better be as efficient as all Hades to get the job done.

If I'm right, and I'm not convinced I am yet, it's going to blow my mind. Cards like Spectral Lotus will play a VERY interesting role (using them to thin the deck may not be your best bet...). I can't wait to find out whether I'm right or not though.

stiii
06-12-2013, 04:41 PM
There is a slight downside to using the Lotus as a pure deck thinner - less information before mulligans. Say you start with a hand containing 4 Lotuses and 3 Resources. Is it a keeper? Hard to tell; those Lotuses are proxy cards for whatever you're going to draw into. If that happens to be another 4 Resources, you're in bad shape!

This is a huge thing, so huge that it is in fact wrong to run blank zero cost cards that don't do anything. Magic has plenty of cards that are very close to this and people still don't play them in every deck.

Thinning your deck is a very slight advantage and screwing up your mulligan is not worth the slight gain.


Of course lotus does do something but if you aren't planning on using it then it isn't worth including just because it replaces itself.

Yoss
06-12-2013, 04:50 PM
Zero cost cantrip that gives you an artifact in play is very strong, especially since it will do SO MUCH MORE if you're in a tight spot and choose to pop it open. I can easily see it being 4x Lotus for dungeon. While you fight your way to the boss it's "just" a zero cost cantrip with the small benefit of deck thinning. Then when you get to the boss, you unload the Lotus for an easier win.

nicosharp
06-12-2013, 05:02 PM
Of course lotus does do something but if you aren't planning on using it then it isn't worth including just because it replaces itself.
I can see your point, and I might have the same reservations if the Lotus was purely a blank card. In raids and dungeons, there will be times that having 4 lotus in the deck may be more of a disadvantage than an advantage if you refuse to activate it.

It will be interesting to see if dungeons allow players to make adjustments to their decks inbetween encounters. If not, having a 0 cost 'cantrip' might cause problems, and if you pop it, then having a 3 cost tiger replacing what very well should be a resource or low drop will cause you problems.

Having a hard to read opening hand can cause a lot of problems in encounters, but to me seems like less of an issue for PvE then it would be for PvP. The % chance of having 4 screw you in your PvE deck, is going to be a lot lower than the % chance not having 4 screwing you in your PvE deck.

Showsni
06-12-2013, 05:07 PM
This is a huge thing, so huge that it is in fact wrong to run blank zero cost cards that don't do anything. Magic has plenty of cards that are very close to this and people still don't play them in every deck.

Well, you could try... 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Street Wraith, 4 Mishra's Bauble, 4 Urza's Bauble... Hey, I have a 44 card deck!

Yoss
06-12-2013, 05:18 PM
Well, you could try... 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Street Wraith, 4 Mishra's Bauble, 4 Urza's Bauble... Hey, I have a 44 card deck!
Manamorphose, down to 40 cards.

JoB3nder
06-12-2013, 05:43 PM
I've actually been thinking a lot about deck size, raids, etc. and I have a sneaking suspicion that Hex is going to make us break the holy rule of deckbuilding by building bigger decks. Observe the quotes from the dragon slaying article:


So, if you have an angry swarm of Shin'hare and attack with all of them, the way I read this is that you will have a chance to tick him down by say...5-7 points on his progression meter. This is after you have established a solid base that got you to the swarm of bunnies, say 5-10 turns minimum. This also assumes that he hasn't done any damage to you and hasn't developed his board AT ALL. So if you find a way to deal damage to him with multiple troops per turn while holding him off, you MIGHT, and I mean MIGHT, get him dead before you deck yourself with a 60 card deck. I have my doubts though. You have to deal damage to him 100(!) times WITHOUT TAKING DAMAGE ONCE to kill him. Split that in 3 and you still have to nail him 33-34 times, without getting hit in return, before he dies. Most games of MtG have you hitting the guy 6-15 times or so before winning.

What I see is that we all run into these dungeons and raids the first couple of times, get decked BADLY, and suddenly, deckbuilding adds a whole freakin new dimension to it: How many cards do I run? We'll need to keep numbers low to get to our good cards, but high enough to really play with the raid bosses. Will we see 83 card decks? 122? I have no idea, but if you have to hit the guy 33 times with a 60 card deck, you'd better be as efficient as all Hades to get the job done.

If I'm right, and I'm not convinced I am yet, it's going to blow my mind. Cards like Spectral Lotus will play a VERY interesting role (using them to thin the deck may not be your best bet...). I can't wait to find out whether I'm right or not though.

I sure hope you are right. I'm of the opinion that PvE will have very different rules here and there. Why would we need to stick to 60 card decks? The biggest reason being saving time not building a new deck for each encounter, but isn't that something Cory wants to promote anyway? You can't just create your perfect 60 card deck and run everything. And that is good.

I can foresee many scenarios where your deck would need to be a different size or any number of other changes to the norm.

Punk
06-12-2013, 06:04 PM
I sure hope you are right. I'm of the opinion that PvE will have very different rules here and there. Why would we need to stick to 60 card decks? The biggest reason being saving time not building a new deck for each encounter, but isn't that something Cory wants to promote anyway? You can't just create your perfect 60 card deck and run everything. And that is good.

I can foresee many scenarios where your deck would need to be a different size or any number of other changes to the norm.

I could definitely see situations where it may benefit you having more than 60 cards in specific Dungeons/Raids.

Spectral Lotus has a huge upside in just about every deck.Even if you are not playing an Artifact synergetic deck, the card still replaces itself so you are not sacrificing card advantage, it helps thin your deck so you can get to the cards you are looking for (more applicable to 60 card decks), and it has the potential of being used for 3 resource points to be used in a tight spot or to have your combo go off early.

funktion
06-12-2013, 10:33 PM
Great post nico...

Now I'm NOT saying your wrong (you are 100% right) spectral lotus is almost all upside. The one downside is that in many cases when looking at your opening hand, you have to imagine that the spectral lotus wasn't there and then determine if it is keepable. When deciding to mulligan the spectral lotus can be a "trap" because you don't know what card you are going to draw with it. That said, with enough practice with your deck and having a deck that sometimes benefits from cracking your lotus's, you will always want to run it as a 4 of.

Edit: man I must have accidentally skipped an entire page, didn't notice so many people already posted this...

hex_colin
06-12-2013, 10:58 PM
There is a slight downside to using the Lotus as a pure deck thinner - less information before mulligans. Say you start with a hand containing 4 Lotuses and 3 Resources. Is it a keeper? Hard to tell; those Lotuses are proxy cards for whatever you're going to draw into. If that happens to be another 4 Resources, you're in bad shape!

On balance, I'd take the 4 Lotuses and 3 resources every single time. Thanks! ;) 4 draws, almost no chance of them all being additional resources, and enough resources available to you to play ANY card in your deck on turn 1. And, it's PVE, so if you get truly screwed by an abundance of resources, you wipe and try again.

jaxsonbateman
06-12-2013, 11:00 PM
While it's a good post Nico, I will point out that this has been discussed for a while now. :-P

While it won't be an auto-include for every deck, I dare say that most decks will benefit from it - in a vacuum of course. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some anti artifact mechanics in PvE, or heaven forbid, artifact-stealing mechanics, which would pretty much force you to use your lotus (as otherwise the enemy will just use it when they get it).


On balance, I'd take the 4 Lotuses and 3 resources every single time. Thanks! ;) 4 draws, almost no chance of them all being additional resources, and enough resources available to you to play ANY card in your deck on turn 1. And, it's PVE, so if you get truly screwed by an abundance of resources, you wipe and try again.
The point of the include-them-everywhere idea though is to not actually use them. Though having them there in a pinch is nice. :-)

lamaros
06-12-2013, 11:03 PM
3/0 means it adds three mana, yes, but what happens if your mana cap is only 1? Can you go over your mana cap? If you cannot then it doesn't help you pay bigger creatures early.

Fireblast
06-12-2013, 11:08 PM
You can have [10/1], it's just that at the start of your next turn you'll have [1/1]

~

jaxsonbateman
06-12-2013, 11:10 PM
3/0 means it adds three mana, yes, but what happens if your mana cap is only 1? Can you go over your mana cap? If you cannot then it doesn't help you pay bigger creatures early.
There's no mana cap. When you get cards like +[0/1] (i), +[1/0] (ii) and +[1/1] (iii) (which is what sources do), they mean this:
i) Add one permanent mana (no extra mana this turn, but an extra mana every turn from next onwards)
ii) Add one temporary mana (an extra mana this turn, but no extra mana on any later turns)
iii) Add one temporary mana and one permanent mana (an extra mana this turn, and an extra mana on your future turns)

My terminology may be slightly off, but that's exactly what it means.

AmineHsu
06-12-2013, 11:16 PM
Wait, I think I've been reading the power of the Spectral Lotus all wrong.... HOW does it work?

BenRGamer
06-12-2013, 11:17 PM
There is a slight downside to using the Lotus as a pure deck thinner - less information before mulligans. Say you start with a hand containing 4 Lotuses and 3 Resources. Is it a keeper? Hard to tell; those Lotuses are proxy cards for whatever you're going to draw into. If that happens to be another 4 Resources, you're in bad shape!

Eh, if you aren't specifically afraid to use them that would be an awesome hand. Even if you drew your most expensive cards, you'd be able to play them turn one.

lamaros
06-12-2013, 11:20 PM
There's no mana cap. When you get cards like +[0/1] (i), +[1/0] (ii) and +[1/1] (iii) (which is what sources do), they mean this:
i) Add one permanent mana (no extra mana this turn, but an extra mana every turn from next onwards)
ii) Add one temporary mana (an extra mana this turn, but no extra mana on any later turns)
iii) Add one temporary mana and one permanent mana (an extra mana this turn, and an extra mana on your future turns)

My terminology may be slightly off, but that's exactly what it means.

Ah, that makes sense. They need to get their icons done very well, because it may be a little confusing if they get it a bit off.

jaxsonbateman
06-12-2013, 11:24 PM
Wait, I think I've been reading the power of the Spectral Lotus all wrong.... HOW does it work?
1. Gives you three temporary mana; that is, mana for that turn only.
2. Gives you three threshold. It'll likely be either three of one color, or three of colors divided as you choose. We'll find out when the game comes out.
3. Transforms into Black Tiger and returns to your hand.

AmineHsu
06-12-2013, 11:26 PM
... All this time I had been reading it as: "Exhaust; Pay 3, gain 3 threshold" thinking that threshold creation was the major draw of the power as it would let you far more easily run multicolor decks...

jaxsonbateman
06-12-2013, 11:30 PM
Nope - seeing as it cantrips itself, and its legendary equip lets you get a major filter effect, its major appeal is that you can get heaps of mana and dig very far in order to do very broken things on turn one...

.. Just like the real Black Lotus...

Of course, it also gets appeal for the reason the thread was created - 56 card decks.

hex_colin
06-12-2013, 11:30 PM
The point of the include-them-everywhere idea though is to not actually use them. Though having them there in a pinch is nice. :-)

Agreed. And most times you'd draw a card you could play for 1 resource and not have to sacrifice one. But, you'd have the option for significantly more mayhem!

domread
06-12-2013, 11:45 PM
On the topic of 60 card decks. I expect you will still run 60 in pve but just end up running more escalation cards or cards like pack raptor meaning you can't actually deck yourself. All depends what the boss gets up to of course and how many of that style card are playable or which dungeon you are running. It seems a lot harder to deck yourself.

GreyGriffin
06-12-2013, 11:55 PM
I have a friend who had a Black magic deck that we called the "Black Library." It was an Unlimited deck culled from the entire history of Magic. It was over 300 cards and took 3 people to shuffle. It also never lost a game. There was just so much great stuff it could dish out that pulling a specific card was never, ever an issue.

Now granted, I don't think it ever played against a tournament ready hyperspeed agro/burn deck of doom, but still, it provides an interesting model for a bloated deck you could use in PvE.

nicosharp
06-12-2013, 11:56 PM
Sorry folks. I didn't realize the exact same discussion had already been created here. Although I assume it is pretty obvious what this card will be used for. If anything, be thankful that I am reemphasizing the value of the spectral lotus for the KS backers to sell for profit on the AH.

jaxsonbateman
06-12-2013, 11:57 PM
I have a friend who had a Black magic deck that we called the "Black Library." It was an Unlimited deck culled from the entire history of Magic. It was over 300 cards and took 3 people to shuffle. It also never lost a game. There was just so much great stuff it could dish out that pulling a specific card was never, ever an issue.

Now granted, I don't think it ever played against a tournament ready hyperspeed agro/burn deck of doom, but still, it provides an interesting model for a bloated deck you could use in PvE.
Don't suppose you know the decklist do you? Sound very intriguing.

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 12:06 AM
If I remember correctly, he had a hojillion 1-3 casting cost creatures, as much regenerate and graveyard digging as he could get, and 2 demonic tutors (because that was all he owned). And a staggering 150-ish swamps. I think he eventually broke it up into some other decks, but it remains a living legend among my friends.

I'll see if I can get him to email me the list.

Zaelesis
06-13-2013, 12:07 AM
1. Gives you three temporary mana; that is, mana for that turn only.
2. Gives you three threshold. It'll likely be either three of one color, or three of colors divided as you choose. We'll find out when the game comes out.
3. Transforms into Black Tiger and returns to your hand.
CZE has confirmed the threshold are of your choosing, now if that is of any combination or just 3 of 1 of your choice, i dunno but either way you choose the color.

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 12:28 AM
Well it always had to be a color; there's no colorless threshold at this point (colorless cards are those because they don't have threshold :-P).

AmineHsu
06-13-2013, 01:27 AM
I'm imagining an artifact deck with either sliver of the immortal spear or time bug (Or both) could get pretty crazy really really fast.

Out of Curiosity, would 2 Journeyman Technicians reduce the cost of Time Bug to 0?

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 01:42 AM
I'm imagining an artifact deck with either sliver of the immortal spear or time bug (Or both) could get pretty crazy really really fast.

Out of Curiosity, would 2 Journeyman Technicians reduce the cost of Time Bug to 0?
If they leave the cost reduction as is (and don't change it to something like Archmage Wrenlocke that reduces costs to 1 at most), that should be the case.

Delrusant
06-13-2013, 02:11 AM
I wonder what if there are card that can tap you oponent artifacts or such, wouldn't it be costy for non KS player in the longterm to have 4 black lotus in every deck when some might get transformed into a tiger not by their own choosing??

We have not seen all the cards yet, so it may or may not happened but from what I understood dungeon and raid are "deck instance" you enter with your deck and cannot change it until you leave it (and have to start it again, progress is saved if you need to leave the game). Because from the articles on dungeons you have to choose either to finish it or explore more of it, meaning your deck gets thinned by the PvE opponents (voided cards maybe that won't reappear until you leave the deck instance?).

Meaning a 60 cards deck might be far from sufficient to complete a PvE playthrough. Then there is the question of can you remoce card from your deck in your deck instance? (meaning you have less loss than expected, the boss is hard and you want your best thinnest deck to bash it).

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 02:19 AM
While we don't know the dungeon or raid mechanics and you pose questions that we'd like to see answered, I will say that if Hex operates like Magic in regards to the tap-opponent's-artifact rules, then just exhausting someone else's Spectral Lotus won't activate its power. And I imagine it's going to work like that.

Indormi
06-13-2013, 02:26 AM
If there is a card like that on PvE (that takes control of one of your artifacts) I expect that if it is the AI the one that uses it, it doesnt change. If this happens in a Wild West Tournament thought, yeah you lose the lotus.

Errantsquire
06-13-2013, 03:56 AM
The way this will work for me is that I'll have 2 versions of most decks one with Lotus and one without. The one without Lotus will be used for most dungeon crawling/raiding whereas when I need to go for an achievement or a difficult fight I'll swap to one with Lotus. The craziest thing to me about this card is the flip which not only draws and gets you a body but it gives you threshold. I dare to say it's as good as other Lotus cards ever were.

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 04:00 AM
The way this will work for me is that I'll have 2 versions of most decks one with Lotus and one without. The one without Lotus will be used for most dungeon crawling/raiding whereas when I need to go for an achievement or a difficult fight I'll swap to one with Lotus. The craziest thing to me about this card is the flip which not only draws and gets you a body but it gives you threshold. I dare to say it's as good as other Lotus cards ever were.
Unless you're facing an encounter that steals your artifacts or is anti-artifact in some way (ie. artifacts cost 1 more to play), then you probably won't need to take them out. As we've been saying, they replace themselves so there's no harm really in keeping them in, and in a lot of decks the pseudo-reduced-deck-size is ideal.

Really, in terms of the actual use of this Lotus it's far better than Black Lotus (the best MTG Lotus, ofc) - you replace it when you play it, then you replace it when you use it (with the Black Tiger). If we consider that's what the card would be in PvP, then yep, already better than Black Lotus. But then you put the legendary gloves into the equation, and Black Lotus doesn't even compare anymore.

AmineHsu
06-14-2013, 12:12 AM
If they leave the cost reduction as is (and don't change it to something like Archmage Wrenlocke that reduces costs to 1 at most), that should be the case.
If it's not changed I can already see a hilarious infinite combo