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fido_one
06-12-2013, 05:50 PM
Hey all,

The VIP program seems pretty awesome for a number of reasons, the primary one appealing to one's wallet. Boosters just shy of a buck - I'm in on that.

I wonder, now that KS has shown how far people will go, what will CZE do to deter multiple accounts in this arena? It's not going to be illegal to have multiple accounts, so what is to stop someone from having 10 accounts, and 9 of them are to farm the deal on VIP boosters?

I could see a lot of people having 10+ accounts just to take advantage of the VIP booster prices.

I think we've discussed in detail how CZE would have a major issue doing anything punitive on having multiple accounts as there are a lot of good, legitimate reasons to have two, three or four (and trade between them).

Maybe considering that if you go for a VIP account you must buy for a minimum time frame, say a full year? And that you could stack VIP accounts as we are with the KS tiers? My concern is that there are already more reasons for Hex to multi-account than I can find for any MMO and dTCG that I can think of, and I worry that the VIP will pile on more reasons to flood the game with false-accounts.

EDIT: Prior thread on this is here -http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24714

XagoTrunk
06-12-2013, 05:52 PM
The best thing they can do is make accounts locked to one credit card/paypal payment method. But of course, there are way around that :s

BlindMan
06-12-2013, 05:54 PM
Cryptozoic has stated that you need a separate payment method for each account. That should make it hard enough to not be worth stacking dozens of accounts to save $1/wk each.

primer
06-12-2013, 05:56 PM
Cryptozoic has stated that you need a separate payment method for each account. That should make it hard enough to not be worth stacking dozens of accounts to save $1/wk each.

Yea they just have to make it enough of a pain to set up the multi accounts that people just don't bother.

keroko
06-12-2013, 05:58 PM
someone said max of 4 somewhere on these forums I think I saw.

but ya, they've probably got a good idea of who got what by who paid for what. some people will have picked up extra accounts to force their friends / loved ones to play.

i guess you could be super shady and have lots of ccs in lots of different names or whole groups of mmo hive dwellers buying hundreds of accounts, enough to live of lotus sales and meat on sundays if they win at tourneys.

the vip program sounds really fun.

Boozecluez
06-12-2013, 05:58 PM
I saw it mentioned somewhere else ,that Cory believes muliple accounts using the VIP system for cheap boosters falls into exploiting the system .He said it in a post somewhere (I am sure someone will post it soon) . Basically I can see different family members having accounts is legit ,but I am sure they can track situations where the Master account is fed by all the junior accounts so wouldn't want to take the risk to save a few $$

Ramshackal
06-12-2013, 05:59 PM
Plus for set 1, auction house value of set 1 boosters will likely be around a dollar anyway. Set 2 onwards is where VIP will be a real benefit.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 06:00 PM
Yeah, the program is prone to abuse. On the positive side, Cory mentioned how they will have no tolerance for people abusing the system. Hopefully they can track down people who abuse it and ban them. But I'd prefer that the VIP program be changed/scrapped after the kickstarter vip bonus is over.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 06:12 PM
Basically I can see different family members having accounts is legit ,but I am sure they can track situations where the Master account is fed by all the junior accounts so wouldn't want to take the risk to save a few $$

I think CZE would have to be very, very clear on what constitutes abuse. There are a lot of situations where multiple accounts are legit - I have a KS waiting to get my wife interested, but I'm sure as hell sapping the account until the right moment to attempt to recruit her, which won't be until after release and the game stabilizes. Other people have kids or are gifting it in other ways that will start blurring lines pretty quickly.

I think it's an uphill battle to make any deterrents punitive in this area - making it less worth your while to go through the exercise of creating multiple accounts is a way where you won't hit false positives (punish someone who had an authentic reason to have two or more VIP accounts).

It's the market - we're talking about platinum and gold as a currency but really I see the main currency being boosters - right now CZE has baked into the market a way to undermine that currency by half and I'm curious as to the deterrents of abusing it.

The CC linking is a good start, but I own 5 CCs <- as crazy as that sounds, that's not atypical, and I'm not even getting into the fact that I can go down and get a dozen one-spend visas (burners) in a heartbeat.

Punk
06-12-2013, 06:14 PM
Yeah, the program is prone to abuse. On the positive side, Cory mentioned how they will have no tolerance for people abusing the system. Hopefully they can track down people who abuse it and ban them. But I'd prefer that the VIP program be changed/scrapped after the kickstarter vip bonus is over.

I think there will always be a way to abuse it to some extent, but there is numerous ways that they would be able to detect someone abusing the VIP program. It will not be a perfect system but I have faith they will keep it under control.

Turtlewing
06-12-2013, 06:28 PM
Creating multiple accounts to get multiple VIP memberships is a good way to get hit with the banhammer. They've said they'll be looking for that exact abuse in a kickstarter update.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 06:34 PM
Creating multiple accounts to get multiple VIP memberships is a good way to get hit with the banhammer. They've said they'll be looking for that exact abuse in a kickstarter update.

CZE has been very good about being vigilant about abuse, but I don't think they've defined it for things like VIP (have they? I may have missed it). I see some (albeit not a lot) legitimate uses for multiple VIP accounts - kids especially, if I had a kid of age the VIP would be a great way to keep him or her on a steady stream of affordable boosters without allowing them to go hog wild on a night of wild spending on my CC.

If they want to be punitive with VIP multicounts they'll have to drill down to some very detailed specifics to tell people what means abuse and what does not - otherwise you'll have some people with legitimate uses get banned and banning people that were using the system in good faith can generate bad PR pretty quickly,etc.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 06:38 PM
CZE has been very good about being vigilant about abuse, but I don't think they've defined it for things like VIP (have they? I may have missed it)

Well, I got this private message about multi VIP abuse quite awhile ago:

"Hey Mike,

We are aware of the situation and will be closely monitoring it via our fraud prevention tools.

Thanks."

DjiN
06-12-2013, 06:43 PM
How desperate must someone be to do all those multi account shenanigans for so low value... But I fear there will be people that will try to make a profit of it. Let's just hope the bans occur regularly and often, then the problem should be solved.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 06:44 PM
Well, I got this private message about multi VIP abuse quite awhile ago:

"Hey Mike,

We are aware of the situation and will be closely monitoring it via our fraud prevention tools.

Thanks."

Huh - that's great. One way or another that ties up my concern that started this thread.

Still some thoughts left, but they are tangential:

I hope they define what that abuse means though for the VIP program specifically. I know there are a couple of posters that are planning for using it for their kids - I'm assuming they will still be trading cards left and right regardless of how much they differentiate their children's account.

If, and it's a mighty big if I'm afraid, my wife does get hooked, she'd get a VIP account, and we'd be trading cards left and right (I can dream!) - but I'd want to have lines drawn to know that I'm not veering into abuse territory.

Mercudin
06-12-2013, 06:46 PM
Am I the only one that doesn't think they'll care about this? They get to sell a digital product for $1 instead of $2. To do that, they set up a revenue stream, which companies love. And people will continue paying for this VIP service even if it has marginal utility to them once they've gone through the trouble of setting it up. I would imagine they'd look the other way unless someone is showing a very clear pattern of abusing this system.

Lafoote
06-12-2013, 06:47 PM
They're not going to have a crazy problem with VIP abuse. It's just not worth that kind of effort.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 06:56 PM
If you introduce a way to buy boosters for a buck and they go for 2 bucks and Hex takes off, people will find a way to gimp the system. It's economics - the chances of this happening are high, but grow exponentially if the game becomes popular - if you find yourself spending 800 bucks a year on Hex and you could get the same stuff for around 400 bucks, many people will go the 400 buck route even if it's been labeled 'abuse.' I'm not advocating it, but it'll happen - and people will find ways to make it not seem clear - hell, look at the KS, the community had bots running on filled up tiers within a day after they maxed out. ...or look at the lengths people go to on sites like slickdeals to save a dollar or two.

CZE is filled with smart people, but they'll be battling bots and other bad things in general. So maybe they have a rule or two in mind that would just take this addition out of the mix for major abuse? Better than, I'm assuming, spending days/weeks/months programming heuristic code to identify VIP abuse accounts.

A possible way of clearing things up, combined with Mike411's insight to CZE's standpoints on multiple VIP accounts could be 'one VIP account per family, no exceptions.' <- it would put some people out but I think less feathers would be ruffled than those who find they got banned when they thought they weren't abusing the system.

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 07:03 PM
If you could make a bot that could (legally, albeit against Hex's TOS) make $1 a week for you, without any input, there will be someone who makes it.

If that bot could be scaled up to 100 accounts, it'd make a lot of money.

DjiN
06-12-2013, 07:05 PM
A bot that registers credit cards for you? Get real please.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 07:09 PM
A bot that registers credit cards for you? Get real please.

DjiN, maybe you're being sarcastic? Fire up mIRC (or whatever the kids are using these days) and you'll have trouble not finding one. There are legitimate ways of going about doing this as well, namely one-time-use Visas. I agree with Tyrfang, it's a big, big world out there and there are a hell of a lot of people who don't give a rat's ass about TOS or Hex and this upsets the economy - they'll find a way to do it.

Yoss
06-12-2013, 07:29 PM
Yeah, the program is prone to abuse... I'd prefer that the VIP program be changed/scrapped after the kickstarter vip bonus is over.This is the only good solution I can think of. The VIP program's booster discount is a bad, bad idea.

EDIT:
Unless of course they're prepared to have the retail value of a booster pack be $1.

BlindMan
06-12-2013, 07:37 PM
I'd rather that they make an effort to police it, and if that fails, then they can scrap it. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out if the market is getting hammered with cheap packs. If for some reason they can't stop people making tons of extra accounts, they should at least be able to see the effects.

If they can police it, it's a great way for them to get a constant stream of money coming in.

Yoss
06-12-2013, 07:45 PM
If boosters are supposed to be $2 from CZE, they should be $2 from CZE, period.

How about this for an alternate version of VIP:
If you play X number of paid tournaments (not counting freebies; and you must actually PLAY, not just buy in and leave) in a month on a single account, that account gets a free booster pack plus all the other VIP benefits they're planning, like an exclusive tournament invite.

This system would mean that it doesn't matter if you multi-account, because you have to do more than just pay a few bucks; you have to invest TIME.

Justinkp
06-12-2013, 07:46 PM
Maybe rather than scrapping the system finding a way to change it so its not as prone to abuse but still generates a steady stream of income for CZE. For instance rather than $1 packs give nontransferrable tokens to cover drafting fees. Even if people stack accounts for this it won't have as drastic effect on the economy and I don't (offhand) see a reason it shouldn't be allowed.

This won't appeal to people as much as cheaper boosters but could still be a good deal depending on your play style and should attract a fairly large number of people.

Others may be able to think of better potential VIP programs

Edit: perhaps a combination of this and Yoss's idea above for added enticement.

Justin

DjiN
06-12-2013, 07:47 PM
DjiN, maybe you're being sarcastic? Fire up mIRC (or whatever the kids are using these days) and you'll have trouble not finding one. There are legitimate ways of going about doing this as well, namely one-time-use Visas. I agree with Tyrfang, it's a big, big world out there and there are a hell of a lot of people who don't give a rat's ass about TOS or Hex and this upsets the economy - they'll find a way to do it.

What happened to society? :[

fido_one
06-12-2013, 07:56 PM
What happened to society? :[

Heh, it's been that way before computers were around. If you ever work in IT and touch upon security though, the things people do (and can do!) will spin your head clean off. Just have to be desperate enough to do it. ...and there are a hell of a lot of desperate people out there, I'm afraid.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 08:04 PM
Also there's a bunch of relevant VIP discussion at http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24714 too.

Turtlewing
06-12-2013, 08:07 PM
How about they just monitor account behavior with automatic filters that flag suspicious activity for review by a moderator and ban accounts that are found to be abusing the system?

They have the server logs of every action your account takes, it's not going to be all that hard finding farm accounts on the scale that could be a problem for the economy.

Kerustyx
06-12-2013, 08:07 PM
@DjiN you don't even need a credit card, you can just use a $5 disposable debit card. Hell, I'm pretty sure there are WoW bots that auto create their own account after being banned. It really wouldn't take much (it's just a compiled script after all), and Blizzard doesn't ban by credit card number, IP address or email address so there is no major changes to be made.

fido_one
06-12-2013, 08:07 PM
Also there's a bunch of relevant VIP discussion at http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24714 too.

Ah, great catch, I wouldn't have started this if I had found that thread.

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 08:10 PM
There's giant password lists and credit card lists that you can buy.

Generally, hackers just sell them in bulk and don't deal with the issue of trying to use the cards themselves.

Actually, those hacked passwords and username lists are what cause a lot of the initial spikes of "hacked" accounts for large releases.

People reuse old username/passwords and bots just brute force using old combinations.

Kietay
06-12-2013, 08:23 PM
The best way to avoid abusive systems is to not enable them. If they have a way for people to buy boosters at $1, I can't see anyone who buys them often ever paying more than that. It would be stupid to.

Gwaer
06-12-2013, 08:24 PM
The best way to avoid abusive systems is to not enable them. If they have a way for people to buy boosters at $1, I can't see anyone who buys them often ever paying more than that. It would be stupid to.
They have a way to buy 1 booster a week at $1. That's not going to be enough for most people.

zonnenkind
06-12-2013, 08:27 PM
Maybe rather than scrapping the system finding a way to change it so its not as prone to abuse but still generates a steady stream of income for CZE. For instance rather than $1 packs give nontransferrable tokens to cover drafting fees. Even if people stack accounts for this it won't have as drastic effect on the economy and I don't (offhand) see a reason it shouldn't be allowed.

This won't appeal to people as much as cheaper boosters but could still be a good deal depending on your play style and should attract a fairly large number of people.

Others may be able to think of better potential VIP programs

Edit: perhaps a combination of this and Yoss's idea above for added enticement.

Justin


I agree with you. I also like to suggest the following restrictions to VIP program
1. that booster you get from vip are not tradable but can count towards drafting cost.
This remove vip program booster from the trading arena. You can still draft with it 3 weeks into the program

2. If you choose to open those boosters, cards come out of it is auto flagged 30days untradable
I don't think you should remove people's ability to open packs. Some might enjoy pve more and just need more cards. For those that pvp, loose cards are less valued than the boosters (cannot used in drafts to win rewards). The idea for this is to hinder abusers (make it annoying and time consuming so they see no value in doing so), but will not affect normal players too much.

3. Subscribing into vip does not immediately give out a booster, but given during the weekly scheduled maintenance or a particular day of the week.
vip program is suppose to be something you pay in front and reap the benefits overtime, and not to be used as a "oh shit i need a cheap booster button". If you want a booster urgently, they are 2$ each or get it from auction house.

However, I do acknowledge that my suggesting are not all perfect. All it can do it is making it a nuisance for people trying to game the system while trying to keep all the intended benefits.

ossuary
06-12-2013, 08:37 PM
Economically speaking, the VIP program is NOT a bad idea. You cannot dismiss the value of a guaranteed revenue stream vs. a possible, future impulse buy. Getting $4 a month for sure is often more valuable than MAYBE getting 8 or 12 a month from one-off purchases. CZE wouldn't be offering the VIP program unless they were confident the $4 a month is going to give them worthwhile revenue, regardless of how many people take advantage of it. MANY people will buy the VIP program, take those 4 packs a month, and never buy another pack any other time. But that will still be money in CZE's hands, and therefore worthwhile.

Ask Blockbuster sometime how the one-off purchase model is doing for them. Oh wait, you can't, because Netflix charged way less a month for subscription access instead. ;)

Kietay
06-12-2013, 08:39 PM
They have a way to buy 1 booster a week at $1. That's not going to be enough for most people.

They have a way to buy infinite booster packs each week for $1. They just limit each account to 1 per week. They have not set a limit on accounts. Even if they did, this would be a verbal rule instead of a coded rule. If you don't want people to do something, don't make it possible. I do sort of like the idea of the current VIP they have but would rather it be something that doesnt devalue the already cheap cards. If it is physically possible to get the boosters people will.

Tracking and banning people who have too many accounts for VIP will be as hard as tracking and banning bots/gold sellers. There will already be plenty of those to keep them busy.

Rapkannibale
06-12-2013, 08:56 PM
I would argue that the amount of people that would go through the trouble and risk of buying stolen credit card info in order to abuse the VIP program is going to be relatively small. Sure there are people that have two to four credit cards, and they might get that many VIP accounts, but I don't think that will destroy the economy. In the end maybe CZE even expects boosters to cost around a buck in the AH and have made their forecasts based around that.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 08:58 PM
Ask Blockbuster sometime how the one-off purchase model is doing for them. Oh wait, you can't, because Netflix charged way less a month for subscription access instead. ;)

I'm sure the different distribution models didn't have anything to do with that :p

This would be, Netflix offering movie purchases for $2 vs. Netflix offering a movie each week for $1 but saying 'this is a special deal, only one per person please'. Oh and allowing you to resell the movies by a Netflix-supported auction house.

Malicus
06-12-2013, 08:59 PM
They have a way to buy infinite booster packs each week for $1. They just limit each account to 1 per week. They have not set a limit on accounts. Even if they did, this would be a verbal rule instead of a coded rule. If you don't want people to do something, don't make it possible. I do sort of like the idea of the current VIP they have but would rather it be something that doesnt devalue the already cheap cards. If it is physically possible to get the boosters people will.

Tracking and banning people who have too many accounts for VIP will be as hard as tracking and banning bots/gold sellers. There will already be plenty of those to keep them busy.

VIP bots will behave in extremely predictable ways ie doing practically nothing but trading away or selling VIP boosters. A rule maximising VIP for a household etc will make any abuse enforceable even when multiple accounts are being played inside a house.

People also fail to recognise the extreme risk involved in attempting to abuse this if there is a rule against it. It takes a minimum of 7 days to recover the initial cost even vs retail purchase this may be 14 days if ah boosters are closer to $1.33. This means being caught is a big deal.

Small scale abuse will not have a big impact on the economy and large scale abuse is unlikely to go unnoticed and therefore given the high risk low reward structure this is unlikely to be a big issue.

For me the larger will be grey market sales of boosters purchased using stolen credit cards, at is a real risk.

Arbiter
06-13-2013, 06:30 AM
I can't believe people want to restrict trading/cancel a bonus system because they fantacise that there will be large scale fraud. If there is large scale fraud it will be acted upon. If there is small scale, it may be caught, and if it is it will be acted upon. To render the system useless because "someone else might get an advantage" is actually quite a selfish philosophy, and unfortunately way too common among the MMO crowd.

I expect there to be bots. I expect there to be people that will try to cheat the system. They are an irritant, and a cancer that I hope is regularly eradicated. To constrain people from trading or quash a minor incentive boost to people because of cheats is to magnify the impact of the cheat on everyone playing the game - it has way more negative impact on the game as a whole than the cheat's actions.

Live with it, report it and help CZE to eradicate it.

Stok3d
06-13-2013, 06:39 AM
Someone came up with a brilliant solution before: Make the VIP booster BOP on your account and not tradable. Problem solved.

Lafoote
06-13-2013, 06:59 AM
They could also restrict sales of packs to a $2 minimum price. You could have the option to trade packs for stuff, but any plat value must be minimum 2. "Problem" solved.

DjiN
06-13-2013, 07:02 AM
Someone came up with a brilliant solution before: Make the VIP booster BOP on your account and not tradable. Problem solved.

K then i just crack them and sell the cards. Problem still exists.

Tyrfang
06-13-2013, 07:04 AM
They could also restrict sales of packs to a $2 minimum price. You could have the option to trade packs for stuff, but any plat value must be minimum 2. "Problem" solved.

That would break many promises about not touching the secondary market at all.


K then i just crack them and sell the cards. Problem still exists.

Cracked boosters are rarely worth as much as sealed boosters.

Pezzle
06-13-2013, 07:10 AM
Stop worrying about VIP abuses. It will not have a significant impact. Sure, there will be some people getting 1 draft a month for 4 dollars. It is not effortless as they have to sell a pack. The process also takes a month. The VIP program lets people dabble and slowly increase their card pool.

Why on earth would anyone think making packs of a trading card game BoP a good idea? There is a word for it. Starts with terrible.

Turtlewing
06-13-2013, 07:21 AM
Someone came up with a brilliant solution before: Make the VIP booster BOP on your account and not tradable. Problem solved.

It does undermine the "T" in TCG though.

dogmod
06-13-2013, 07:23 AM
This again? ;)

Pezzle
06-13-2013, 07:29 AM
Apparently so.

panzer
06-13-2013, 07:44 AM
The VIP is super cheap (IMHO) @ $48/year. What I wonder is if they will have a reduced price for paying a year upfront like most subscriptions. If I can get boosters for less than a $1 a week i'd take it in a second.

ossuary
06-13-2013, 07:49 AM
This would be, Netflix offering movie purchases for $2 vs. Netflix offering a movie each week for $1 but saying 'this is a special deal, only one per person please'. Oh and allowing you to resell the movies by a Netflix-supported auction house.

Not familiar with hyperbole, then? ;)

dogmod
06-13-2013, 07:53 AM
The VIP is super cheap (IMHO) @ $48/year. What I wonder is if they will have a reduced price for paying a year upfront like most subscriptions. If I can get boosters for less than a $1 a week i'd take it in a second.

You are already set at getting them for 92c per week so jump on it!

I still don't understand how Crypto offering a limited deal is them altering the secondary market... I need to stay away from this thread

Vorpal
06-13-2013, 07:57 AM
I don't think they are going to care if someone is running around with 2-3 VIP accounts (self, wife, kid). Especially if it's obvious that all those accounts are real accounts (and doing things like purchasing additional boosters at $2 - 1 booster a week isn't going to be enough for most people)

I think for VIP abuse to be problematic, they'd need to set up lots of accounts. And presumably that can be detected, and the behavior of VIP bot accounts will be dramatically different from the behavior of real people.

You could just tie access to the VIP program to having reached a certain spot in the campaign, for example.

Even if it takes 'only' something like 6 hours to get there, that is probably going to be a problem for most bots.

Ceracha
06-13-2013, 09:02 AM
If the prize structure is anything like it is on MTGO, then current set boosters are going to sit around 1/2 the cost on the "AH" as compared to what you can buy them from the official store. I don't think the VIP program will change the market too much, because boosters should have a market value of about $1 anyway.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 09:37 AM
How about this for an alternate version of VIP:
If you play 4 paid tournaments in a month on a single account (not counting freebies; and you must actually PLAY, not just buy in and leave), that account gets a free booster pack plus all the other VIP benefits they're planning, like an exclusive tournament invite.

This system would mean that it doesn't matter if you multi-account, because you have to do more than just pay a few bucks; you have to invest TIME. A Very Important Person (VIP) in this game will be someone who's both spending money and spending time on it. This system would reflect that.

Turtlewing
06-13-2013, 10:13 AM
How about this for an alternate version of VIP:
If you play 4 paid tournaments in a month on a single account (not counting freebies; and you must actually PLAY, not just buy in and leave), that account gets a free booster pack plus all the other VIP benefits they're planning, like an exclusive tournament invite.

This system would mean that it doesn't matter if you multi-account, because you have to do more than just pay a few bucks; you have to invest TIME. A Very Important Person (VIP) in this game will be someone who's both spending money and spending time on it. This system would reflect that.

That suggestion assumes VIP is meant to cater to competitive players rather than say: lower the barrier to entry for casual players into PvP.

It also does not help CZE in any meaningful way (VIP converts some portion of irregular unpredictable income into stable monthly income which looks good on balance sheets).

Yoss
06-13-2013, 10:39 AM
I'll say here what I said on the other thread.

If CZE is happy making the majority of their booster sales through the VIP program, then the VIP program is fine as is.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 11:07 AM
I'll say here what I said on the other thread.

If CZE is happy making the majority of their booster sales through the VIP program, then the VIP program is fine as is.
I will eat my smelly stinky shoes if vip makes up the majority of their booster sales at the launch of set 2. Quote it, put it in your signature. I'll have my girlfriend read up on preparing leather for human consumption.

Daer
06-13-2013, 11:09 AM
Yeah the VIP program isn't going to be the major source of booster sales.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:14 AM
I will eat my smelly stinky shoes if vip makes up the majority of their booster sales at the launch of set 2. Quote it, put it in your signature. I'll have my girlfriend read up on preparing leather for human consumption.I hope you're right, but I'll take that bet, just so I can have the grotesque satisfaction of "seeing" you eat your shoes if I'm right. Especially since you're not making me wager anything for my half of the bet. :P

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 11:16 AM
I hope you're right, but I'll take that bet, just so I can have the grotesque satisfaction of "seeing" you eat your shoes if I'm right. Especially since you're not making me wager anything for my half of the bet. :P

I would feel bad taking you for anything from this bet.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:17 AM
Fair enough. :)

Ju66ernaut
06-13-2013, 11:22 AM
The VIP system is perfect for CZ. A lot of us are going to start this game and play it for years. A lot of us will only play for a few months. $4/mo is such a low cost for a recurring purchase. If I didn't play for 4 months, I wouldn't think to stop my sub. How many people have gym memberships that they never use? How many people sign up for Traveler's Advantage for the one time $20 hotel discount, forget to cancel, then pay $79/year for 5 years before they realize they're still being charged? It's free money flowing into the CZ coffers every month without needing any customer action.

That reminds me, I need to cancel that Traveler's Advantage....maybe I'll call them tomorrow.