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Yoss
06-12-2013, 07:52 PM
Everyone knows that bots ruin an MMO. Post here your ideas for how CZE might fight them effectively.

Here's my first idea (credit to Barkam): Image codes for access to any area a bot might care to go. For example, when you try to enter a dungeon, the game puts up an image on the screen and you have to give an answer in chat based on the image, similar to what you have to do when signing up for these forums.

CylnFerrt
06-12-2013, 07:56 PM
http://i.imgur.com/cluj5Ue.jpg

Kerustyx
06-12-2013, 07:57 PM
Oh god if I have to enter a captcha for doing anything in Hex you can guarantee I'd be using a bot to do the captcha!

Turtlewing
06-12-2013, 08:01 PM
That's a terrible idea.

Your anti blotting system can't be more annoying than the bots or its not worth doing.

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 08:04 PM
Captchas a big no go.

You could just do some quick image recognition based on cards that should be unobtrusive.

Kietay
06-12-2013, 08:04 PM
Bots can do captchas, if there are captchas we might as well all use bots just to avoid typing them in.

The only real way any MMO can fight bots is to have a system to ID them fast enough that you can ban them with low turn around. There will be bots and they will make money. All you can hope is for some system to detect them and get rid of them before they make too much.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 08:19 PM
Bots still have trouble with captchas, that's why they're still in widespread use. Bring on the captchas I say!

Kerustyx
06-12-2013, 08:22 PM
That would operate the same way as the captcha. It might be unobtrusive, but the bot would still be able to recognize the card instantly.

What Kietay said is very accurate. You can't stop bots, but you can do your best to limit the damage they do. Crypto's best chance (in my eyes) is using an algorithm detection that systematically monitors repetitive behaviour and acts accordingly.

If it was my game and I had to implement something, I'd make the AI cheat the bot and let it continue running.

Barkam
06-12-2013, 08:26 PM
The idea is to not require Captchas for every dungeon or for everyone. Captchas is only to be used when the anti-botting algorithms suspect a bot, this won't be often but enough to help curve the bot issue. Additionally, this will provide feedback to the developers whether their algorithms are working or not. Remember, this is just one of the tools that the developers can use.

Let's try to be more open minded.

Fateanomaly
06-12-2013, 08:34 PM
Captchas are too annoying.

If they really want some id system, just randomly show a card and ask some questions about it.

JoB3nder
06-12-2013, 08:41 PM
If it was my game and I had to implement something, I'd make the AI cheat the bot and let it continue running.

That would be awesome.

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 08:56 PM
That would be awesome.

Bot detected, running "Draw the Nuts" algorithm.

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 08:57 PM
Bots still have trouble with captchas, that's why they're still in widespread use. Bring on the captchas I say!

Nah, bots don't have massive troubles with captchas anymore, because they all have an audible attachment for accessibility.

Barkam
06-12-2013, 09:01 PM
Nah, bots don't have massive troubles with captchas anymore, because they all have an audible attachment for accessibility.

Why limit yourself to the standard captchas? If the problem is the audible attachment then get rid of it. Can we be solution-focused instead of problem-focused?

Tyrfang
06-12-2013, 09:06 PM
Why limit yourself to the standard captchas? If the problem is the audible attachment then get rid of it. Can we be solution-focused instead of problem-focused?

That's ironic, considering captchas are the problem from my point of view.

Botting is an issue, but really, captchas won't do anything but annoy the shit out of players.

Mike411
06-12-2013, 09:11 PM
Nah, bots don't have massive troubles with captchas anymore, because they all have an audible attachment for accessibility.

The audible option isn't easily defeated anymore. Try logging in to the league of legends forum if you want an example...

Parzival
06-12-2013, 09:12 PM
I like the "Draw the Nuts" idea but sadly can already hear nerd rage as the algorithm turns on human players. Those kind of systems often get it wrong.

Full forensic auditing, player A hasn't logged out in five days and runs 2 dungeons an hour, non stop. They then log in once a week and "trade" all cards to player B for nothing in return.

Hmmm, yup that's normal player behaviour.

Follow the money and you will find the bot master ;-) Have a fair reinstatement policy(Yes I am looking at your Blizzicrap) for the times you do mess up and a profiling system - Oh this is your third "accidental" ban lets have a closer look at your accounts...

Trying to stop the bots from running is futile, following the money and freezing their main accounts, that will slow them down.

Kietay
06-12-2013, 09:17 PM
Freezing the main account wont do anything. They lose what ever stock they havent already sold, which should be minimal if they are actually selling instead of collecting. Really the only solution is to constantly work on detection and have at least some kind of automation to bring the likely cases to the attention of a person for final review. You'd still likely need a person reviewing the cases full time depending on how many people this game gets.

Can't ever stop them, just have to slow down the amount they inflate the economy.

Parzival
06-12-2013, 09:34 PM
I agree that you cannot stop them and that somebody will have to police their behaviour.

As long as CZE doesn't allow real money to be withdrawn from the system (D3's downfall) I don't think it will be a huge issue, yes they can "take" the cards to the secondary market but I suppose it all depends on what the bots can farm.

Dungeons sound like they will have massive decision trees, a lot harder than programming a couple of mouse clicks to auto spam a skill in D3.

Raids need the dungeon to be completed per raider and though only a couple of fight, the opponents sound suitably monstrous.

Through all of that, you are only collecting gold, pve cards and maybe the occasional chest.

If they can bot drafts wow my hat off to them!

BenRGamer
06-12-2013, 09:36 PM
Well, if they really wanted to go after botters, they've specifically said they've built the engine with the ability to roll back any transaction.

Parzival
06-12-2013, 09:47 PM
Now rare draft botting would be interesting and possibly doable (Open pack look for orange/blue, choose card, receive next pack, scan for colours, take rarest etc)

They would still need to buy the packs and it would only work if rare/legendaries became valuable.

Kerustyx
06-12-2013, 09:51 PM
I agree that you cannot stop them and that somebody will have to police their behaviour.

As long as CZE doesn't allow real money to be withdrawn from the system (D3's downfall) I don't think it will be a huge issue, yes they can "take" the cards to the secondary market but I suppose it all depends on what the bots can farm.

Dungeons sound like they will have massive decision trees, a lot harder than programming a couple of mouse clicks to auto spam a skill in D3.

Raids need the dungeon to be completed per raider and though only a couple of fight, the opponents sound suitably monstrous.

Through all of that, you are only collecting gold, pve cards and maybe the occasional chest.

If they can bot drafts wow my hat off to them!

D3's major economic downfall was the gold AH actually. The RMAH actually stayed pretty steady (after the initial spike that is).

Refugee
06-12-2013, 10:00 PM
I think the best bot blocker is probably turreted wall. I mean yeah pretty expensive for a wall but 5 toughness is hard to get through.

Parzival
06-12-2013, 10:08 PM
I didn't say that the RMAH was the problem, I was saying that allowing for the battlenet accounts to withdraw money was the problem - as in people could make money playing D3

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 12:27 AM
Simple but not 100% effective.

Show some card art with a hidden hotspot, and be like, "Click on this Shin'hare's ear." Or "Click on Xel'togoth the Never Living's junk."

Potentially as effective as a captcha but less annoying.

dodecapod
06-13-2013, 01:03 AM
What kind of bots are we talking about here? Are bots so complex now that they can make quick and accurate game decision while acquiring information about the current match they are in? Or is it about other bots?

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 01:05 AM
A bot could be set up to rare draft, run out the clock, lose the game and then mail the cards to a master account.

dodecapod
06-13-2013, 01:15 AM
A bot could be set up to rare draft, run out the clock, lose the game and then mail the cards to a master account.

Wouldn't a post account analysis be sufficient to find these kinds of botters? Using historical data, a program can be used to pick out accounts that have consistent suspicious activity (eg. consistently running out the clock in successive drafts) and ban them and perhaps remove all cards transfers made by that account.

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 01:25 AM
Wouldn't a post account analysis be sufficient to find these kinds of botters? Using historical data, a program can be used to pick out accounts that have consistent suspicious activity (eg. consistently running out the clock in successive drafts) and ban them and perhaps remove all cards transfers made by that account.

Sure you can find them, but what happens to the draft games they wrecked and the cards they sold to other non-bot users on the AH?

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:06 AM
Show some card art with a hidden hotspot, and be like, "Click on this Shin'hare's ear." Or "Click on Xel'togoth the Never Living's junk."

Potentially as effective as a captcha but less annoying.Even better if the text for the directions was captcha-like. Then it's two layers of security. Other possible things to click on: flavor text, rules text, card type, etc.

Googolplex
06-13-2013, 11:10 AM
I prefer bots over captchas!

Turtlewing
06-13-2013, 11:35 AM
Sure you can find them, but what happens to the draft games they wrecked and the cards they sold to other non-bot users on the AH?

The remaining players have a better chance of winning the prize which is of grater value than the expected return on rare-drafting.

MatWith1T
06-13-2013, 12:41 PM
http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=3007#comic

ConnorJS
06-13-2013, 01:33 PM
The best thing for Hex to do is to develop bot detection as well as updating the game's coding regularly as to make the bot unable to keep up with the game's updates.

Typhon
06-13-2013, 01:46 PM
Captchas, especially reCaptcha, have been broken for a long time now. But you know what bots can't answer? Simple questions like "What does the 'C' in TCG stand for? (4 Letters)". That is literally one of the questions we use on HEXRealms (http://www.hexrealms.com); and it has completely eliminated bots from our site (we used of have 1,000+/day).

karmacappa
06-13-2013, 01:57 PM
Everyone knows that bots ruin an MMO. Post here your ideas for how CZE might fight them effectively.

Here's my first idea (credit to Barkam): Image codes for access to any area a bot might care to go. For example, when you try to enter a dungeon, the game puts up an image on the screen and you have to give an answer in chat based on the image, similar to what you have to do when signing up for these forums.

I'm just going to throw this out there, if you want to block botters, discussing those methods in public is not likely to be fruitful. In reality, most effective methods to block botters are done in ways that are never visible to the user.

Ju66ernaut
06-13-2013, 02:01 PM
Maybe....just maybe....they could incorporate XBoxOne technology to verify that we are playing one account, in our own home, on an individual Internet connection that matches our profile's geographic location field.

Tyrfang
06-13-2013, 02:12 PM
Maybe....just maybe....they could incorporate XBoxOne technology to verify that we are playing one account, in our own home, on an individual Internet connection that matches our profile's geographic location field.

I can't tell if this is being sarcastic.

I'll just take it as such.

ramseytheory
06-13-2013, 02:54 PM
Well, I think there's at least one established method for dealing with botters - zero tolerance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=d74Z_i8q5gI#t=291s). Hopefully Cory is considering it. :)

karmacappa
06-13-2013, 03:02 PM
As a rule, it is not effective to "block" bots. Given enough incentive, any automated measure can be circumvented. Rather, the most effective principle is to concentrate on "identification" of bots. Given that a certain amount of investment is necessary to make a profit in this game, it will be a situation where bots can not afford to be banned in large quantities.
I expect Cryptozoic will devise methods and measure by which they identify the behaviors exhibited by a majority of successful bot programs. They will then accumulate information and deactivate those accounts in a fashion which does not allow the programmers of bots to deduce the triggering behaviors. As time goes on, though the bots will be reprogrammed and put back into service, Cryptozoic can continue to target those behaviors and target large bot populations with increasing accuracy.
The most damaging counter to this methodology is leaks though. This is why most companies simply will not discuss their anti-botting measures.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 04:27 PM
The most damaging counter to this methodology is leaks though. This is why most companies simply will not discuss their anti-botting measures.Fair enough. I'm content to worry in silence on this topic I guess.

karmacappa
06-13-2013, 07:29 PM
Fair enough. I'm content to worry in silence on this topic I guess.

Kind of. The other end of the stick is that leaks are botters worst liability too. The best way to kill botters is to quietly finger them to CZE. If you harass them and say they're a filthy botter, they kind of know they did something. If you slyly ask them what bot they're using, get a copy, and send it to CZE, in 3 months they lose their entire empire of production.