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Grumph
06-12-2013, 11:50 PM
In all of the game play video's I noticed the stop clock that prevents people from taking too long each turn. However, having played other online games with stop clocks, I have encountered a crumby tactic that sore losers will occasionally employ. When they know they will lose next round they will let their timer run out in hopes that their opponent will become frustrated and leave the game so that they do not have to wait however long is left on the timer. This can become extremely frustrating when you have a limited amount of time that you can play each day.

Have any of the developers mentioned any kind of measures to prevent such tactics?

Miwa
06-13-2013, 12:09 AM
If you care that much, you can just leave and go play another game. Would guess that some people really do have IRL stuff come up in games and may make people wait too (I gg out of a game if I need to in those cases, but others may use their clock time).

There will probably be different clock time options, for folks that need to play fast.

I guess CZE could low-priority queue people who run out the clock a bunch, or allow petitioning after the game to get the griefer banned. Or they could implement a vote system that works like the abuse flagging in DOTA2, which has proved amazingly sucessful.

Zaelesis
06-13-2013, 12:12 AM
There is a turn timer but there is also an overall timer of 30 minutes. If the player takes longer then 30 minutes throughout the entire game they lose automatically. I think some people may decide to grief but personally, i have other things on my desk to do while waiting for a turn if it gets that bad.

quaza
06-13-2013, 12:13 AM
In the streams I've seen there is a 30 minute "overall" timer. I'd assume if this runs out, you lose. However, on the last LiveStream, with the Blood-Shin'hare deck, Dan automatically lost after only 10 minutes of inaction. I'm guessing the 30 minutes is a per-game, with a hidden per-turn segment.

funktion
06-13-2013, 12:20 AM
Think you guys are missing the OP's point. An entire draft round between two players could be over in 10 minutes easily if they are both quick players...

However, a sore loser could easily just let his clock run out. Not only dragging the game on another 25 minutes for the winner (if there are 30 minute round timers) but also dragging the entire draft out for everyone else involved. This gets even worse for larger constructed tournaments.

The solution (two options, BOTH of which should be implemented):
-Have an inaction timer of roughly 10 minutes, you don't do anything for 10 minutes, you lose the round
-Have a report functionality, detecting people who grief in this manner is fairly easy. Get reported or automatically flagged enough and face tribunal / moderation.

Lunarath
06-13-2013, 12:20 AM
the 30 min seems too long to me, especially in tournaments. i think a total of 15-20 minutes per person is plenty of time

funktion
06-13-2013, 12:26 AM
the 30 min seems too long to me, especially in tournaments. i think a total of 15-20 minutes per person is plenty of time

You would be surprised, for new players just getting into the pvp aspect of the game 15 minutes will dissapear very quickly. It really sucks to get a loss because you're getting accustomed to the system. It could permanently end a players interest very early in their gameplay career.

30 minutes per is plenty of time, just because it's available doesn't mean it will need to always be used up.

Finally, and this is actually pretty important, with a digital client, it can often times take quite some time to execute a combo because of all the times which priority needs to be passed back and forth. This is really not something to be underestimated, if the timer is limitted to 15 minutes, some decks just won't be viable.

Verdant
06-13-2013, 12:29 AM
-Have an inaction timer of roughly 10 minutes, you don't do anything for 10 minutes, you lose the round

Nah, not a solution. Griefer can still make a move once per 10 minutes and then proceed to do his own thing. Unless this timer is really short (say, 2-3 minutes), it's just not effective.

SomeoneRandom
06-13-2013, 12:29 AM
I think they have a 90 minute turn timer or something along those lines. (Maybe 90 seconds without action?) so I don't think this will be too much of an issue. However depending on the time it might put a constraint on constructed control mirrors where sometimes you need time to figure things out. I am sure there is a healthy medium they can come to though.

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 12:30 AM
It is a potential problem, though as far as I'm aware it doesn't come up much with MTGO. A solution would be nice; they just have to be careful not to interfere with actual gameplay with it.

Chiany
06-13-2013, 12:36 AM
the 30 min seems too long to me, especially in tournaments. i think a total of 15-20 minutes per person is plenty of time

not for constructed, 2 control decks against each other can last a long time.

funktion
06-13-2013, 12:38 AM
Nah, not a solution. Griefer can still make a move once per 10 minutes and then proceed to do his own thing. Unless this timer is really short (say, 2-3 minutes), it's just not effective.

The point is for it to be long, if the griefer is really going out of their way to do it they will find a way regardless. 2-3 minutes means you auto-lose if you have to take a piss or grab a beer, no thanks.

Edit: in most cases it's someone rage quitting, that's what the 10 minute timer is for...

Shadowelf
06-13-2013, 12:50 AM
the 30 min seems too long to me, especially in tournaments. i think a total of 15-20 minutes per person is plenty of time

30 min per person (1 hour) is used by most tcgs for competitive matches; i can't see why hex should be different

Beastmaster
06-13-2013, 01:08 AM
I think that in the right circumstances (ie not on the unranked casual que) it would be cool to have a button to press that says 'you are taking too long, whats up?' available after 60 seconds - 2 min depending on the turn (ie not first) and number of cards in hand (lots of cards = lots to consider).

If they play withint 60 seconds from that message, its all cool. If not you send a second one that says 'Are you still there?' which starts a countdown from 60 seconds and if they dont respond within the 60 seconds they loose.

Basically if they are AFK for more than 4 min without saying anything and dont respond when their opponent asks whats up - they loose.


Also Funny idea - if they go AFK and your character is a rogue, you can attempt to steal one of their creatures and use it against them - all they have to do is click stop but if they are AFK..

Miwa
06-13-2013, 01:10 AM
lose. lose. lose. Unless you want them to loose something towards you.

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 01:11 AM
Conversely, it could also be cool to have a button that says, "This game is awesome, let's keep playing," if there are some truly epic plays going on. Granted, with the pace of the games we've seen so far, 30 minutes per side is pretty generous.

Beastmaster
06-13-2013, 01:24 AM
Conversely, it could also be cool to have a button that says, "This game is awesome, let's keep playing," if there are some truly epic plays going on. Granted, with the pace of the games we've seen so far, 30 minutes per side is pretty generous.
Yeah, I would really prefer that the timing was based on players being reasonable and communicating with each other rather than a hard limit - but I can see where a hard limit is useful in tournaments that need to adhere to a structure of matches.

Hmm - i see a new wincon, lifegain and defence with lightning fast turns and wait for opponent to time out. - could make for some interesting decks but everyone would hate you for playing them..

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 01:46 AM
Yeah, I would really prefer that the timing was based on players being reasonable and communicating with each other rather than a hard limit - but I can see where a hard limit is useful in tournaments that need to adhere to a structure of matches.

Hmm - i see a new wincon, lifegain and defence with lightning fast turns and wait for opponent to time out. - could make for some interesting decks but everyone would hate you for playing them..
From my ~5 years of playing Magic, such a strategy would never work in a competitive match. In constructed, if all you try to do is control and you don't actually try to win in some way, you end up running out of gas, and then all your opponent needs is one card that is designed to win and it's GG. Not to mention they'll be putting the hurt on you while you initially try to gain control.

It's the same for limited, though you have the small fractional chance of having a card pool that is just so much more powerful than your opponent that you're able to set up the win. But then I'd argue it's the card pool's strength that won, and not the 'strategy'.

theophanya
06-13-2013, 01:47 AM
Timers are more or less fine, could be tweaked if need be, but as mentioned before all top TCGs use 1 hour per match in a standard tournament. The game has a replay function, so it shouldn't be easy to send the replay to a judge, who will decide on a slow play and give out a warning. Then the griefer would know better next time if he wants to play some more.

Punk
06-13-2013, 02:03 AM
If no actions are taken on MTGO in 10 consecutive minutes, that player loses. I feel this is just fine. If the griefer wants to wait 9 minutes and then click once, let them. This will be an extremely rare circumstance and it really isn't that big of a deal because you know you just won. I expect each round to take 50-60 minutes, which is usually the maximum allotted time. If it finishes sooner, great. If someone tries to grief me by running down the clock, then I'll go walk around or lift weights for a few minutes. I'm sure everyone has something they can do outside of staring at their screen for this amount if time.

Just like forum trolls: ignore them.

Shadowelf
06-13-2013, 02:32 AM
Wouldn't a 2 min turn timer (30 total) solve the issue somehow ? If the 2 min passes the turn shifts back to u. Also there can be a hidden timer counting the time opp takes to assign blockers, and if this given time runs out, the dmg passes through. Playback option can also be used at our advantage here; save the vid and send it to the devs

funktion
06-13-2013, 02:33 AM
Wouldn't a 2 min turn timer (30 total) solve the issue somehow ? If the 2 min passes the turn shifts back to u. Also there can be a hidden timer counting the time opp takes to assign blockers, and if this given time runs out, the dmg passes through. Playback option can also be used at our advantage here; save the vid and send it to the devs

What if I need to use the restroom? What if work calls? 2 min is too short, 10 is fine

Mike411
06-13-2013, 02:40 AM
I don't think they need to do anything other than what they have now, per-action timers and overall timers, just keep something else to do nearby. You could be writing a report about them to Cryptozoic as you're waiting for the win even :p

jaxsonbateman
06-13-2013, 02:51 AM
Per-action timers can be dangerous, especially in control-vs-control matchups. Finding the right line of play can be very tricky and potentially game-ending if you choose poorly.

A 7-10+ min AFK timer seems fine though.

Indormi
06-13-2013, 03:00 AM
There is a thread (extensive one, if I remember correctly) that talked about it like 1 week ago or so.

One of my propositions was to have a "report" feature similar to LoLs one. If someone griefs with the clock, you report them. After X reports they get a warning and get "their clock" reduced by a couple of minutes. for a period of time. If they continue doing it, they get it reduced even further. (The clock gets reduced in ALL PvP matches, tornament and non-tornament alike).

Right now there is a 3 minute timer for reconnect. I expect that there is also a 3 minute timer for "iddle" that means , if you do "nothing" for 3 minutes you may be flagged as afk. Dont do anything for some other minutes and you are most likely out. In addition if you get flagged as AFK in the same match a couple times in a row you could also insta-forfeit.

Fireblast
06-13-2013, 03:14 AM
There are an AFK timer and a disconnected timer

~

GreyGriffin
06-13-2013, 03:16 AM
What if I need to use the restroom?

As someone with gastrointestinal problems, this is why I hope windows touchscreen support is robust.

Punk
06-13-2013, 03:28 AM
Wouldn't a 2 min turn timer (30 total) solve the issue somehow ? If the 2 min passes the turn shifts back to u. Also there can be a hidden timer counting the time opp takes to assign blockers, and if this given time runs out, the dmg passes through. Playback option can also be used at our advantage here; save the vid and send it to the devs

Sometimes in MTGO, I can take up to 4/5/6 minutes in one turn. Some turns can be very complex planning out and you need additional time to think. Any timer under 10 minutes would be absolutely horrible. I personally feel there shoudn't be a penalty such as this though and that your 30 minute clock should be spent how you want to spend it. It is all the time you will have for all the games needed to complete your current match. If you want to goof off and waste it, fine.. it is only a disadvantage for you.

This whole topic is brought up because people don't want to wait. I kinda feel it is a little silly how detrimental some people are making this sound.


There is a thread (extensive one, if I remember correctly) that talked about it like 1 week ago or so.

One of my propositions was to have a "report" feature similar to LoLs one. If someone griefs with the clock, you report them. After X reports they get a warning and get "their clock" reduced by a couple of minutes. for a period of time. If they continue doing it, they get it reduced even further. (The clock gets reduced in ALL PvP matches, tornament and non-tornament alike).

Right now there is a 3 minute timer for reconnect. I expect that there is also a 3 minute timer for "iddle" that means , if you do "nothing" for 3 minutes you may be flagged as afk. Dont do anything for some other minutes and you are most likely out. In addition if you get flagged as AFK in the same match a couple times in a row you could also insta-forfeit.

I feel that the disconnect timer should be increased to 10 minutes and it should still consume your game clock while you are disconnected. 3 minutes is a very short amount of time. Since we are talking about potential internet connection issues, fixing this can easily take longer than 3 minutes. The time it would take me to properly power cycle my network, determine that the issue is not a quick fix and tether the internet connection from my phone to use in the meantime, we are looking at 5-8 minutes.

I am not saying that this is the situation everyone will encounter since not everyone has a backup internet source, but you should have longer than 3 minutes to resolve the issue you are having.

Errantsquire
06-13-2013, 04:02 AM
I talk about this problem in a recent stream of MTGO that I played. I don't think it's fixable. Normally what people will do is wait as you're going though actions in an attempt to make you miss click. This can be a little frustrating but it comes with the territory online.

I'd much rather deal with this minor problem then have to deal with the real life person playing mind games on me. Something I hear at high level events all the time is, "I'm not trying to rush you but we're almost at time" when we clearly have plenty of time left in the round. This person is clearly trying to rush me in the hopes that I make a mistake.

RanaDunes
06-13-2013, 04:06 AM
the 30 min seems too long to me, especially in tournaments. i think a total of 15-20 minutes per person is plenty of time

15 minutes is MTGO's standard and it's plenty of time.
But this doesn't work if the game's client doesn't give us keyboard shortcuts to pass all priorities.

Also, I once queued for a draft tournament but totally forgot about it. I came back to my computer and saw that I lost 2-0 games and hence lost the tournament... however, the poor 7 other players had to wait for me in order to proceed with their games. So, there are people who just go AFK for some reason (even if they've lost $$) there needs to be some sort of maximum allowed x-time per turn (say not more than 2-3 minutes per turn).

Punk
06-13-2013, 04:17 AM
15 minutes is MTGO's standard and it's plenty of time.
But this doesn't work if the game's client doesn't give us keyboard shortcuts to pass all priorities.

Also, I once queued for a draft tournament but totally forgot about it. I came back to my computer and saw that I lost 2-0 games and hence lost the tournament... however, the poor 7 other players had to wait for me in order to proceed with their games. So, there are people who just go AFK for some reason (even if they've lost $$) there needs to be some sort of maximum allowed x-time per turn (say not more than 2-3 minutes per turn).

The Chess Clock per person is 25 minutes for MTGO, not 15.

I wouldn't even bother playing any tcg game if there was a 2 minute time limit per turn. This is absolutely absurd.

MTGO has it setup that after 10 minutes of not taking any action, you will forfeit the match and auto-drop from the current event you are in. Unless the other 3 matches in your tournament finished both (if not all 3) games within 10 minutes, no one would've noticed but the opponent you gave the free win to.

Ranger58
06-13-2013, 04:25 AM
This is from someone that has not played a ccg for about 7 years or so, but I remember real life games of MTG going for more than 15 minutes. So I don't see an issue with the 30 minute timer. Besides how boring a life must the person have if they are willing to make 1 move every 10 minutes, there seriously can not be that many people willing to waste their own time (never mind the other players).

Just a thought

Shadowelf
06-13-2013, 04:49 AM
What if I need to use the restroom? What if work calls? 2 min is too short, 10 is fine

Duels of champions (online ccg) had a 2 minute timer per turn and nobody ever complained about it; it felt plenty of time even for control decks. I understand that such things are normal to happen, but that doesn't mean they are also acceptable; I doubt u will be allowed to use ur phone during a competitive mtg match and if u need to go to the toilet, then the match is given a time extension which won't be happening here. So if u must take that phonecall or ur desperate to use the toilet, then u might need to drop the match, since there is no way for ur opponent to know. This, or there can be a pause button, that both players mutually accept to use, for such cases

primer
06-13-2013, 05:02 AM
If you get a 10/20/30 min timer then its up to you how to use that time, you can spend 30 minutes trying to figure out your next set of moves. There's a reason you have a 30 min game timer, or whatever the number may be, because the game can take 30 mins.

Punk
06-13-2013, 05:26 AM
Duels of champions (online ccg) had a 2 minute timer per turn and nobody ever complained about it; it felt plenty of time even for control decks. I understand that such things are normal to happen, but that doesn't mean they are also acceptable; I doubt u will be allowed to use ur phone during a competitive mtg match and if u need to go to the toilet, then the match is given a time extension which won't be happening here. So if u must take that phonecall or ur desperate to use the toilet, then u might need to drop the match, since there is no way for ur opponent to know. This, or there can be a pause button, that both players mutually accept to use, for such cases

This is one of the beauties of an Online TCG. You have the freedom of using your chess clock how you see fit, you just have to win with the time you're allotted. Traditionally, when you play in person, the tournament organizer sets a round timer. If your opponent is stalling or wasting time, you call over a judge because I have yet to see a tournament that enforces a chess clock for in person play. Hex will be unique in this fashion.

A pause timer would only potentially cause more of a delay for other tournament players. If you need a pause, you can use the time allotted for sideboarding. If you need to walk away from a game you are playing for any reason, you are wasting time off your clock. This is your penalty. There does not need to be multiple repercussions for this.