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Justinkp
06-13-2013, 07:28 AM
Edit: I know this is long. I thought it was important and deserved the space-if its too long for you please at least skip the first 5 paragraphs and start reading at the "incentives" paragraph.

I've only been on this forum for less than a week but this game seems to have a remarkably good community. I've gotten excellent advice and one person even messaged me and offered to help me learn deck construction over Skype as he was helping a number of people from a particular thread. Game forums, especially popular game forums, are often cesspools of whining and entitlement.

This could vanish almost instantly with a flood of new people-communities are fragile things. Since there's little new info now I thought I'd make a few suggestions for keeping the community helpful, welcoming and vibrant which will ultimately help the game. I have no credentials other than having spent too many hours over too many years lurking in too many forums/newsgroups.

Simple things first-new people will tend to follow the norms of the existing group. This doesn't work if so many new people enter a forum that they overwhelm the existing community. In this case a very tightly knit community where everyone acts in a concerted way to maintain the community is one of the only ways to combat this and developing a group tightly knit enough to face the numbers we're facing is not an easy task and will require a lot of effort. I think the reward of a large game with a great community-which this forum is the seed of-is very much worth it.

Simple-be polite and courteous even to the millionth kickstarter complainer. We may not want these people in the forum but we want everyone in the game. Give people the benefit of the doubt. Understand possible frustration. This doesn't mean coddling people with an if I can't get a tier I won't play. Its a fine line but err on being welcoming.

Little info to discuss makes us cranky and prone to pointless bickering. Everyone can help by trying to post at least one good thread a day. There are plenty of things to speculate and fantasize about-people haven't seemed very interested in my posts but I'll keep trying. Speculate how one of the dungeons like the arena that works on crowd favor will work and how it will affect deckbuilding. Talk about how a feature from another MMO could be implemented in a card based game. Speculate about future content and ways the digital space could affect otherwise standarx things (I bet we're missing so much that will be obvious in retrospect). You TCG experts keep up the analysis but maybe focus on ways normal deckbuilding rules will be broken in hex due to dungeon design requiring larger decks and techniques strange and alien to magic. If you don't think you can post good content try to ask good questions: what's the best zocket for this card? How can these cards interact. Its up to all of us to keep the community vibrant and readable.

Incentives are key. Incentives effect human psychology and behavior in obvious anx subtle ways, for good and for ill. Incentivize behavior you want the community to exhibit. Disincentivize behavior you don't want-don't feed trolls, call people on rude behavior. One of the most important and powerful tools is developing and recognizing the community leaders and having them act on concert. Praise from a respected peer or group of peers is a powerful motivator. Pick an exceptional post or 3 for the day, single someone out as the poster of the day/week etc. This can be amazingly effective, a good community building technique and fun for the whole forum.

Of course even more powerful than praise are rewards. Websites give out rewards to incentivize traffic and they post good content here to get people to check out their site. How many kickstarter rewards do we all have? How much would you part with to build a better community? I'd definitely give 10 boosters as a bare minimum. For people who missed out on the kickstarter especially these are good rewards. But if this community building exercise takes off I'm willing to give much more-I'd give a couple of my kickstarter exclusive PvE cards at least. If this is really taken up I'll give up at least one of my collector AA cards. These are powerful incentives that if used properly make the whole community act better as well as binding us together.

CZE was generous to us, we can be generous to people who missed out on the opportunities we had, especially those of you who have full play sets+ and were planning on selling the extras (I have a collector and king just so people know). You can do more for yourself by using them to build a community that makes the game better for you and everyone else as well as make yourself look great at the same time. Generosity is a good social norm for a community to have.

With luck CZE notices our efforts and matches our donations/prizes with boosters at least. For this to work a group of community "elders" needs to step forward or better, be chosen by the community and they need to not so much lead, but steer and suggest. I haven't been here long enough to nominate people but the producer posters are a good start and I've seen people who seem like good choices but I'll leave that in your hands. Just the act of forming a group who would suggest people for prizes/donations will help cement the community. There is always a chance for these things to backfire but with the community now this seems unlikely and the time to do this is now as the longer we wait the harder it will be and pretty soon it will be too late.

We have a great community now but if we don't make a sustained effort to maintain it it will degenerste when large groups of new people arrive. A tightly knit group with shared norms-a "culture"-is one of the only ways to keep what we have now. Large games almost never have good global communities-the effects that make this work in the real world don't work as well or don't exist on the internet. Forcing communities usually doesn't work and is pretty much impossible after a certain size. We're at a good size now but can't force it, just make a real effort to guide it in a natural way.

Maybe my answers aren't the right ones, I'm new, who am I to come on and try to steer this community? You may have other, better ideas. The most important thing is a conscious decision and effort to maintain and improve this community. Its in every individual's hands. And it can become crap over night.

Please post your ideas, who you think the community leaders already are or should be and what if anything you'd give from your kickstarter rewards as a minimum and what you think you might give if a community effort you like develops. Or other ways you may contribute. Just post to at least show you care about the community, that's the first step to making it last.

Thanks,

Justin

Slish
06-13-2013, 08:41 AM
I recognize your good intent. And although I mostly agree with you, and it can certainly help a bit, I think the thing that matters most is: SIZE and (average) AGE of the community.

The larger the community the harder it gets to stay personal, the more people are 'anonymous'. And 'anonymous' means... well I think you know what that means.

Age is obviously a big factor as well. If you compare the average age of for example "League of Legends" which is around 17 I think. Or the average age of a strategy browser game like Illyriad (http://www.illyriad.co.uk) which is around 34.
The first one being a quite toxic community (especially for newcomers). The latter one being very friendly and peaceful. (so peaceful that I even found it a bit too much).

I don't wanna sound too pessimistic. But these are factors we have little influence on.
However I think that this game attracts mostly mature people (18+ at least). So I have good hopes.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 08:43 AM
+1 would read again.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 08:59 AM
I recognize your good intent. And although I mostly agree with you, and it can certainly help a bit, I think the thing that matters most is: SIZE and (average) AGE of the community.

The larger the community the harder it gets to stay personal, the more people are 'anonymous'. And 'anonymous' means... well I think you know what that means.

Age is obviously a big factor as well. If you compare the average age of for example "League of Legends" which is around 17 I think. Or the average age of a strategy browser game like Illyriad (http://www.illyriad.co.uk) which is around 34.
The first one being a quite toxic community (especially for newcomers). The latter one being very friendly and peaceful. (so peaceful that I even found it a bit too much).

I don't wanna sound too pessimistic. But these are factors we have little influence on.
However I think that this game attracts mostly mature people (18+ at least). So I have good hopes.

These are good points which I have mostly considered. In terms of size you're correct that if the game is popular it will be too big to be personal. The idea is a relatively small tightly knit group can have a disproportionate amount of influence on the total community, affecting the average social norms for the whole community. And those of us in the tightly knit "core" community can get a lot of benefit from it.

Age I didn't address because I didn't want to offend anyone and because exceptions exist on both sides of the curve. I think you're right that we may benefit from a higher average age compared to many games but I don't know if its enough. First of all the core group can provide the same benefits, teaching the younger players to deal with the community responsibly. And by taking young people into the core group we can incentivize their behavior to be more in line with what most of us would likely want, and those individuals will carrry this behavior/culture like a meme to their peer groups outside the core group.

We may get lucky and have a decent community. But to have a community that actually becomes a selling point for the game requires concerted effort on our parts, even if my specific ideas aren't followed. And if we fail to create a significant affect on the global community as a whole that simply makes the benefits of a tight knit core group even greater.

Thanks for your response, it looked like it was going to slip off the front page with no responses which is depressing as is the fact that a number of people read it but didn't respond. Community is important and we have a pretty good one right now. But that's unlikely to last.

Justin

Draugr
06-13-2013, 10:29 AM
Community is important and we have a pretty good one right now. But that's unlikely to last.

Justin

That's the truth, I've seen it in several MMO's that I beta tested. Community is great and everyone is really helpful but as soon as it opens up to the general population it goes to hell. Hopefully it won't happen here, but as long as we ignore the trolls and forum warriors I think we can keep this a friendly place.

Good moderators or Community Managers can really help too. If people see active moderation in a forum I think they'll be somewhat less likely to make an ass out of themselves.

RobHaven
06-13-2013, 10:34 AM
Thanks for your response, it looked like it was going to slip off the front page with no responses which is depressing as is the fact that a number of people read it but didn't respond. Community is important and we have a pretty good one right now. But that's unlikely to last.

That first post is too much. I haven't read it yet - I will, when I can - but I noticed you mentioning the lack of responses. I'm willing to bet a lot of the thread views came from people checking it out, seeing that enormous amount of text, and bailing.
As soon as I finish my work I'll come back, read it, and if I have anything meaningful (and on topic) to contribute, I will. Just wanted to give my two cents [for now] on the lack of activity in the thread.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 10:58 AM
That first post is too much. I haven't read it yet - I will, when I can - but I noticed you mentioning the lack of responses. I'm willing to bet a lot of the thread views came from people checking it out, seeing that enormous amount of text, and bailing.
As soon as I finish my work I'll come back, read it, and if I have anything meaningful (and on topic) to contribute, I will. Just wanted to give my two cents [for now] on the lack of activity in the thread.

You're probably right-and I shortened it! I just think its a very important topic and wanted to do it justice. Also I read pretty fast so it doesn't seem long to me. But in retrospect maybe I should have split it up or something. I was going for impact, though that didn't seem to work.

Heh, the few threads I've started I think are really interesting and going to get a ton of responses but they all just fizzle.
Justin

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 11:17 AM
Meh, people should just keep doing what they do. Trying too hard to battle the waves of personalities that new players bring to a F2P, is just going to make you a sad panda in the end. That is what a narrower focus is for, like guilds.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:34 AM
Great thread.

My first idea for building things around here: remove all kickstarter references from your signatures! If you got in on the KS, you already know you're special. Treat the KS rewards like Fight Club. I've updated my signature already.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 11:37 AM
Great thread.

My first idea for building things around here: remove all kickstarter references from your signatures! If you got in on the KS, you already know you're special. Treat the KS rewards like Fight Club. I've updated my signature already.

^ I actually have always been for this, some 700 posts ago I said basically the same thing. I was really put off by all of the tier epeen thrusting in my general face region. And that was before anything had sold out, and everything was still available to me. I can only imagine it's that much more annoying for new people now that it's over.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:41 AM
@Gwaer:
If you're in favor, maybe remove the sniping comment from your sig? Just sayin'. (And by the way, I DID snipe my PP, and no, you're not getting my garden. ;))

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 11:47 AM
Meh, people should just keep doing what they do. Trying too hard to battle the waves of personalities that new players bring to a F2P, is just going to make you a sad panda in the end. That is what a narrower focus is for, like guilds.

You may well be right and nowhere do I advocate battling players. But if people spent a tenth of the effort they did/do on things like sniping tiers we'd have an amazing community.

The core point is if a large enough number of people make a conscious decision and effort to make a bette. community through the way they act and the content they post there will be a significant aggregate effect on the community and the game.

Also I think there's room for somethong less than ths entire game and larger than a guild. If the kickstarter backers, generally the most enthudiastic supporters of the game and the early "elite" (in a meta game view we have card advantage), form a solid community amongst ourselves we'll end up with a "powerful" , game committed, fairly jntelligent group of people who could gain solid benefit from sticking together. For one thing we can try to price fix spectral lotuses :)

I'd like to see this group do something for those who come later-reciprocate some of the generosity CZE gifted us with, and I think there will be benefits to this. But at the least building a tight knit group among the kickstarter early adopters should pay dividends in the future. And keep a readable forum longer thsn otherwise.

Justin

nearlysober
06-13-2013, 11:49 AM
They should really stop advertising the "sold out" tiers on the slackerbacker donation page... it's kinda just taunting the new people showing them what they missed.

Many of us have read every article, watched every interview, etc. We know CZE's hard stance on the cutoff of the rewards. New people do not.

They see those rewards and think "why can't I get it too?". Understandably, they don't read the entire forum history before posting, that's not realistic, so they think they're asking a rather innocent question about how they can get some of those rewards.

Then everyone who's seen this question asked a dozen times in various forms snap at them because we're tired of the discussion. So, to keep things civil a few things need to happen:

1. Take down the Kickstarter rewards on the donation page
2. Stop discussions regarding buying/selling tiers (already done)
3. Members who have been here a long time: Cut new people slack. Realize that they haven't watched hours of interviews, read hundreds of forum posts or dozens of articles yet.

Generally when they're asking a question that has been discussed to death, we assume they're trolling. It's more likely that they just don't know its a troll topic cuz they're new.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:51 AM
For one thing we can try to price fix spectral lotuses :)I can see it now: "The Caring Cartel: Here to build community through graft and extortion."

Draugr
06-13-2013, 11:52 AM
You may well be right and nowhere do I advocate battling players. But if people spent a tenth of the effort they did/do on things like sniping tiers we'd have an amazing community.

The core point is if a large enough number of people make a conscious decision and effort to make a bette. community through the way they act and the content they post there will be a significant aggregate effect on the community and the game.

Also I think there's room for somethong less than ths entire game and larger than a guild. If the kickstarter backers, generally the most enthudiastic supporters of the game and the early "elite" (in a meta game view we have card advantage), form a solid community amongst ourselves we'll end up with a "powerful" , game committed, fairly jntelligent group of people who could gain solid benefit from sticking together. For one thing we can try to price fix spectral lotuses :)

I'd like to see this group do something for those who come later-reciprocate some of the generosity CZE gifted us with, and I think there will be benefits to this. But at the least building a tight knit group among the kickstarter early adopters should pay dividends in the future. And keep a readable forum longer thsn otherwise.

Justin

I agree, forum users typically make up a small percentage of players overall. If we can build a reputation for good community, it might have a snowball like effect on future forum goers.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 11:52 AM
@Gwaer:
If you're in favor, maybe remove the sniping comment from your sig? Just sayin'. (And by the way, I DID snipe my PP, and no, you're not getting my garden. ;))
My sniping comment is unrelated to me getting any tiers, I may have not even pledged. I did spoil how to snipe, I'll take whatever praise or hate that garners. It's as much a punishment as anything. I don't expect any of you ingrates to pay my price.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:54 AM
They should really stop advertising the "sold out" tiers on the slackerbacker donation page... it's kinda just taunting the new people showing them what they missed.

So, to keep things civil a few things need to happen:
1. Take down the Kickstarter rewards on the donation page
I emailed CZE about this. No response. In that email I also suggested they call it "Beta Backer" instead of the insulting "Slacker".

Yoss
06-13-2013, 11:56 AM
My sniping comment is unrelated to me getting any tiers, I may have not even pledged.It's still a KS reference. Obviously, it's your sig, do as you will.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 11:56 AM
Great thread.

My first idea for building things around here: remove all kickstarter references from your signatures! If you got in on the KS, you already know you're special. Treat the KS rewards like Fight Club. I've updated my signature already.

I agree and never considered putting it in my non existent sig partly probably because I got in at the last minute and could really empathize with those who missed out and I didn't want to rub salt in the wound. However there is advantage in kickstarters being able to recognize each other. We need a secret code or something. :)

Glad you like the thread, hopefully it will actually make a change but even in the more likely case of it evaporating into nothingness maybe it'll have made a small change in how people post and think about the community.

Justin

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 11:57 AM
My sniping comment is unrelated to me getting any tiers, I may have not even pledged. I did spoil how to snipe, I'll take whatever praise or hate that garners. It's as much a punishment as anything. I don't expect any of you ingrates to pay my price.
Yes, we know. You want credit, and now 'your' guild wants to monopolize the gardens of Hex.
Also, to point out, your snipe method shared was the lesser of three snipe methods.. Just saying.

Yoss, you are so funny, I was going to say the same thing regarding Gwaer's signature.

To Justin. No one is going to put the same effort into coddling the community that they did into sniping tiers. Those players, like myself, that try to provide valuable content to the forums will continue to do so, but I am not going to waste my time trying to bump that content through waves of trash posts, or respond to troll posts. That effort is pointless.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 11:58 AM
It's still a KS reference. Obviously, it's your sig, do as you will.
Hmmm, I'm not in favor of removing all references to kickstarter I don't think. I'll have to think about that. It wasn't what I was referring to. People saying they're backers, that is something you should be proud of. Everyone from squire to producer is a part of the game, that's important.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:01 PM
Yes, we know. You want credit, and now 'your' guild wants to monopolize the gardens of Hex.
Also, to point out, your snipe method shared was the lesser of three snipe methods.. Just saying.

There were way more than 3 methods for sniping. I shared the least offensive. I knew how to automate it so you didn't have to be there. I was more interested in keeping people from doing that. At least the people who were willing to sit in front of their computers for hours on end wanted it badly enough to waste hours of their lives. I'm pretty happy about how long it took for the other methods to come out, honestly.

nearlysober
06-13-2013, 12:04 PM
Kickstarter references will always exist... even in the game people will know about "raid leader" and "guild master" boosts.

We don't need to pretend like it never existed... might just be a good idea to not rub it in their faces :)

Yoss
06-13-2013, 12:07 PM
If hiding my KS rewards will leverage even 10 extra people to have a favorable report about this game to their network of friends and family, then I'm quite willing to forgo whatever kudos I'd get from showing them off. On the flip side, I can't think of any way that talking about the KS rewards would help a prospective buyer get into this game. Every reason I can think of goes the other direction: chasing them away.

EDIT:
I agree with you, ns. It just seems best to keep it as quiet as possible.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:12 PM
If hiding my KS rewards will leverage even 10 extra people to have a favorable report about this game to their network of friends and family, then I'm quite willing to forgo whatever kudos I'd get from showing them off. On the flip side, I can't think of any way that talking about the KS rewards would help a prospective buyer get into this game. Every reason I can think of goes the other direction: chasing them away.

EDIT:
I agree with you, ns. It just seems best to keep it as quiet as possible.

It just seems to me there should be a balance between the stances. somewhere between listing out all of your tiers, and never mentioning KS at all. I really do think people should be proud of being backers. Regardless of the reward you got you still invested your money into an untested product, that could very easily fail.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:15 PM
@Nick

I know people won't put that level of effort in, its just human nature and I wouldn't expect anything different. If they did, however, they may actually gain more over the lifespan of the game, though this not quantifiable.

First off all I don't support "coddling" posters and responding to troll posts is something I specifically said no one should do. What I'm suggesting is improving the community through standards of behavior and posting "good" content and trying to help new posters/players as much as possible/you feel reasonable.

In addition I support tightening the core community so that its better able to withstand overwhelming waves of new posters. I don't know the best way(s) of doing this-I suggested some but would be interested in other ideas. I'm also very curious who people consider to be "community leaders" (if any).

Justin

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:20 PM
Perhaps the best way of mentioning kickstarter/reminding people we're backers is by giving some of your stuff away? I'm willing (not to a crazy degree) I wonder who else is? Just a thought...

Justin

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:21 PM
Perhaps the best way of mentioning kickstarter/reminding people we're backers is by giving some of your stuff away? I'm willing (not to a crazy degree) I wonder who else is? Just a thought...

Justin

I know I'll be giving some of my stuff away, and several members of my guild have mentioned they're doing it too. So I hope it's a pretty common sentiment.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 12:22 PM
I really do think people should be proud of being backers. Regardless of the reward you got you still invested your money into an untested product, that could very easily fail.100% agree. And the best way to make good on the investment is to do everything I can to make the game a success. That includes making a good environment for new players, which might include not talking about how awesome I am for backing a game at risk of personal loss. Maybe I'm wrong on that last bit, but it sure seems like people would be more excited about "Slacker Backer" if it wasn't insultingly named and if the donation page didn't show off all the stuff they missed out on and if the forums weren't also a constant reminder of the same.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:27 PM
I really don't understand for what possible reason they continue to show the KS tiers. It seems like all it can do at this point is cost them money by making the Slacker Backer look bad. Even though not logical people base decisions on what they could have had, to the point that some people will be turned off to the game completely.

Even the name slacker backer wouldn't seem as annoying or even insulting if the tiers weren't there.

Justin

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:37 PM
My sniping comment is unrelated to me getting any tiers, I may have not even pledged. I did spoil how to snipe, I'll take whatever praise or hate that garners. It's as much a punishment as anything. I don't expect any of you ingrates to pay my price.

Its your sig of course but maybe a compromise? I'll admit that when I first saw it I found it a little annoying and it gave me an initial poor impression of you (which changed based on your posts) mostly for the "you owe me lotus garden" even though I knew it wasn't serious it just struck a bad chord and it seems to with others as well. If you just changed it "you owe me a coke" or something silly I'd have no problem with it and actually find it amusing.

No offense meant and again it is of course your SIG (and the reaction you get may be what you want).

Justin

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:39 PM
Slackerbacker is a common name for after kickstarter pledges offered through other websites or paypal. It's not something they just made up, it's a common term.

Honestly this all stems from the fact that the original tiers were just too good. They gave us way too much value for being early. I understand why they did it, being worried that this wouldn't take off, but I think it's going to end up causing a lot of problems down the line, and I hope it doesn't injure the long term viability of the game as a whole. No amount of taking it down will correct that imbalance. The slackerbacker looks terrible compared to the KS tiers, definitely. I have reservations on it being a good investment at all, since I'm pretty sure you can end up with more set 1 cards for your money trading on the AH at launch considering the glut that KS backers will have to unload.

I think we'll be better off just trying to have a better attitude as a community to people who come here frustrated about that fact. Especially if we aren't touting that we are 2x producer 10x GK 25x pro players... I dunno, it's a crappy situation for everyone that isn't us right now. On the other hand if they buy into the slacker backer and get alpha beta access they could end up with a full set of KS exclusives, and a ton of packs for probably less than we paid for 1 250 tier.

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 12:43 PM
First off all I don't support "coddling" posters and responding to troll posts is something I specifically said no one should do. What I'm suggesting is improving the community through standards of behavior and posting "good" content and trying to help new posters/players as much as possible/you feel reasonable.

In addition I support tightening the core community so that its better able to withstand overwhelming waves of new posters. I don't know the best way(s) of doing this-I suggested some but would be interested in other ideas. I'm also very curious who people consider to be "community leaders" (if any).

Despite the fact that you say you are not supporting coddling, it is kind of hard to see past that based on your initial post. If not, you are simply asking all the white knights to come forward to do the job they are already doing. No need to unionize an effort that is already being made on a individual basis..

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Despite the fact that you say you are not supporting coddling, it is kind of hard to see past that based on your initial post. If not, you are simply asking all the white knights to come forward to do the job they are already doing. No need to unionize an effort that is already being made on a individual basis..
You having a bad day nico? You're not normally so abrasive. The guy had some suggestions for people to step up on the forums and be better. This isn't the first of those threads, I made one some time ago as well. It's a good cause and worthwhile to talk about.

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 12:50 PM
You having a bad day nico? You're not normally so abrasive. The guy had some suggestions for people to step up on the forums and be better. This isn't the first of those threads, I made one some time ago as well. It's a good cause and worthwhile to talk about.

Haha, maybe I just need a Snickers, I am being a Diva. I think it's time for lunch break.
I appreciate the suggestions, but I don't really think people that are generous need a reminder on how they can be generous. People that are greedy are just going to ignore.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:52 PM
@Gwaer

The perceived value of the tiers is definitely the main problem but I do think taking them down will help substantially. That way most people won't hear about them, at least until they've probably read a lot more about the game, seen videos and are already into it at which point seeing the tiers won't be as damaging. Most people don't look as deeply into games as most of us so many players will never see them if they aren't thrust in their face.

Also, are you planning on giving away some of your KS stuff to only friends/guildmates? Even then doing it publically on the forums is a way to make the community to look good as a whole and more specifically make you look good. Even better if you're not giving to specific people. We can make games for giving stuff away or maybe even one really good game/method that many/most people use. that will be a lot of fun and I think help tighten the community. If this gets popular I'll give a good amount of stuff away I think.

Justin

nearlysober
06-13-2013, 12:55 PM
I dont think people having their tiers in their sig is the problem.

Promoting the tiers on the official website, despite the lack of their availability, is probably frustrating.

Gwaer
06-13-2013, 12:59 PM
The tiers can't be removed on kick starter. It's one google search away once they see the tags on the forums.

There is already a giveaway thread on the forums, it's lost to antiquity now but I'll participate in something like that closer to beta.
Its too early to make definite plans currently.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 12:59 PM
Despite the fact that you say you are not supporting coddling, it is kind of hard to see past that based on your initial post. If not, you are simply asking all the white knights to come forward to do the job they are already doing. No need to unionize an effort that is already being made on a individual basis..

We must have vastly different definitions of coddling. And the advantage to "unionizing" is public perception, community building, anx getting more people to participate (and fun) both of the first two I see having a lot of potential value for, although intangible. Your perceptions may differ radically, but I still value your input.

Justin

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 01:02 PM
Also, are you planning on giving away some of your KS stuff to only friends/guildmates? Even then doing it publically on the forums is a way to make the community to look good as a whole and more specifically make you look good. Even better if you're not giving to specific people. We can make games for giving stuff away or maybe even one really good game/method that many/most people use. that will be a lot of fun and I think help tighten the community. If this gets popular I'll give a good amount of stuff away I think.

While forum communities are a great sample size of the active population of any given game, many casual gamers (that will make up the large majority of this games playerbase) often do not visit forums. I may argue that providing prizes, and give-aways would be better served when the retail game launches through the game platform itself.

Anything before retail offers excited players the opportunity to Slacker backer (the name might sound stupid, but it is still a great deal).

The players that will really need hand outs will be those joining the game as FTP's during Retail launch.


We must have vastly different definitions of coddling. And the advantage to "unionizing" is public perception, community building, anx getting more people to participate (and fun) both of the first two I see having a lot of potential value for, although intangible. Your perceptions may differ radically, but I still value your input.

Justin
I can't shake the feeling that you have a vested interest in the KS community offering freebies on the forums???
I rather give them to those players that joined the same guild. And the Pay-it-forward technique to friends of friends of friends. If I had no friends, I guess the general forums would be a lazy and global alternative.

Also something about forum communities and greed make me very hesitant to vocalize give-aways unless it was benefiting me personally. (sad but true, as there is not much thanks in freebies or relationships built from them - specially in this very disconnected way of offering it.)

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 01:07 PM
The tiers can't be removed on kick starter. It's one google search away once they see the tags on the forums.

There is already a giveaway thread on the forums, it's lost to antiquity now but I'll participate in something like that closer to beta.
Its too early to make definite plans currently.

They may not be removable from kickstarter but the link to that page can definitely be removed. Its seeing those tiers early that's the most damaging I suspect. And I don't know what percentage of the general population will make that Google search.

You're right there's not much reason to make definite plans yet (unless we wanted to spread out giveaways more going towards alpha/beta and I'm not sure of the value of that-my first thought is its more valuable to have a large number of giveaways close to alpha/beta) though its nice to get a rough idea of how many plan to participate and we can try to think of a particularly good giveaway format.

Justin

OmarEpps
06-13-2013, 01:10 PM
Real leaders don't claim leadership.

They are born into it and God guides them.

One.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 01:20 PM
While forum communities are a great sample size of the active population of any given game, many casual gamers (that will make up the large majority of this games playerbase) often do not visit forums. I may argue that providing prizes, and give-aways would be better served when the retail game launches through the game platform itself.

Anything before retail offers excited players the opportunity to Slacker backer (the name might sound stupid, but it is still a great deal).

The players that will really need hand outs will be those joining the game as FTP's during Retail launch.


You make reasonable points but my main goals here are to help the community which is better served by more public prizes to people excited enough about the game that they're on forums pre-release. The prizes will go much further that way towards perception of the community and through that the game itself. It will also be much more useful to my primary goal of tightening the community. The prizes may be worth more after release though you could argue that at that point with market glut many won't seem as attractive once we see actual AH prices. The prizes are also less likely to go go those heavily invested in the game and will therefore have less "value". Also, its not about coddling players-none of them need this stuff :) All that being said there's no reason prizes can't be given before and after release-everyone will choose when to give away whatever they want to giveaway, so certainly that will happen.

Justin

Yoss
06-13-2013, 01:34 PM
Slackerbacker is a common name for after kickstarter pledges offered through other websites or paypal. It's not something they just made up, it's a common term.The way it's always been is not always the best way, and in this case something like "Beta Backer" would be far superior.


While forum communities are a great sample size of the active population of any given game, many casual gamers (that will make up the large majority of this games playerbase) often do not visit forums.Count me in that bunch. Once the game goes live, you'll only see me here if there's a bug or abuse to report on.

BossHoss
06-13-2013, 01:37 PM
I agree with removing the kickstarter link from the main page as we are now heading into a new "block rotation". It should only contain what to look forward to rather than what you missed.

For direct comparisons I see it this way:

Kickstarter Accounts = MtG Power 9 cards

I personally missed the early MtG years of the Power 9 as I started playing in the Alara block but I was more than happy with every upcoming set through the years. I realize that some people got INCREDIBLE deals on those Power 9 cards for the cost of a pack or less and they are now worth boatloads. But I was never bitter once for multiple reasons, namely that my nose was never rubbed in it and it just became a fact that it was an opportunity I missed. Surrounded by people playing with Power 9 never reduced the amount of fun, time and money I put into Magic.

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 01:42 PM
I agree with removing the kickstarter link from the main page as we are now heading into a new "block rotation". It should only contain what to look forward to rather than what you missed.

Totally Agree. I see the benefit now of doing this.


You make reasonable points but my main goals here are to help the community which is better served by more public prizes to people excited enough about the game that they're on forums pre-release.

I think you are mistaking what we should do, with what CZE should do.

I know I snipped what you really are trying to get at, but really mixed in with my other comments, I think you see where I am coming from.

Bailin
06-13-2013, 01:42 PM
Tough thread to comment on, there's a lot of ways to look at the issues and so many angles to consider. first off I think this amazing community has a lot to do with the fact nearly all of us have invested in this game. While we'll have minor gripes about certain things, many of us backed it because we already like the game as a whole and will support/defend many of its actions.

I for one am definitely on the side of Crypto at a minimum starting to eshew many of its Kickstarter references, or at a minimum explain on their own site that Kickstarter has ended (without showing the tiers) and offer their new ways to back the game. HOWEVER, man is it nice to see and advertise 750% backed...holy cow is that huge. It shows this game has a mind-numbing amount of support.

I also don't see a need for Cryto to have incentives for good behavior in the forum, in the game perhaps, but this is OUR space they provided us. They definitely monitor, remove deserved threads and offer their input occasionally. It's up to us to keep it positive. There will be huge amounts of negative posts when this game is more widespread. Nature of the beast. Negative people are loud and want to be heard, content people are satisfied and typically will ignore, and trolls will feed the fires to offset hugs they didn't get at home. I think our only responsibility is to keep doing what we're already doing. A few pros will continue to drop hugely helpful posts on how to improve play, Youtube All-Stars will advertise their very cool videos to help us improve, and we'll have plenty of creative geniuses to theorize what's next for HEX. I'll always come here to see all of that, even if I have to step over a lot of waste.

The only incentive I can give is a huge thank you to specific people. I haven't posted or browsed a lot, but a few jump out at me for going above and beyond to help. I'd like to hear about others who have influenced the community.

funktion & jaxsonbateman - Thank you for your videos, I think they will help a lot of players understand and enjoy the game at a
nicosharp & Gwaer - The amount of advice and game information has been nothing but helpful to the community as a whole. Thank you.
Justinkp - Thank you for your efforts on community building and the amount of creativity and thought you put into much of your speculation threads.

Mexalen
06-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Skipped the responses out of time constraints, will read it all later, just wanted to add that I liked the OPs message.
I'd like to be part of a constructive community and am willing to part with a few boosters if it helps.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 02:03 PM
[;ee the benefit now of doing this.


I think you are mistaking what we should do, with what CZE should do.

"Should" has nothing to do with it as its entirely subjective. I put a fair amount of money into the game, therefore I want it to do well. CZE's goals and mine are aligned. Helping the game helps me, simple enlightened self interest. Surprisingly I came across a good community. I feel its in my best interest to try to help maintain that community as long as possible, for one reason, simply because I enjoy it. Do you know how rare it is to be able to have a civil discussion like this in a popular game so close to beta? I've read a lot of MMO forums and its pretty damn rare.

And I completely agree with the above; I really do not understand their reasoning for keeping the link to the KS.

Justin

BossHoss
06-13-2013, 02:13 PM
And I completely agree with the above; I really do not understand their reasoning for keeping the link to the KS.

Justin

Their reasoning is no different than any of us boasting in our sigs. We are excited, proud and even slightly shocked at how much we got above our expectations and so are they. It is now time for us all to move on to the next chapter but it also proves difficult when the product doesn`t exist yet

Yoss
06-13-2013, 02:16 PM
I for one am definitely on the side of Crypto at a minimum starting to eshew many of its Kickstarter references, or at a minimum explain on their own site that Kickstarter has ended (without showing the tiers) and offer their new ways to back the game. HOWEVER, man is it nice to see and advertise 750% backed...holy cow is that huge. It shows this game has a mind-numbing amount of support.
This is worth repeating over and over until they finally listen. They can and should advertise the kickstarter success as a whole. Huge win! They should also stop talking about, and even providing information about, the rewards they gave out.

Talreth
06-13-2013, 02:16 PM
+1 would read again.

Yeah maybe if you had another 50 years (which I know you don't, oldy).

You're probably right-and I shortened it!

Holy shit


Also I am all for having a good community, but this doesn't mean I want an all-inclusive community either. I'm only marginally upset about the number of dupe threads on the forums, but damn some threads are just moronic. I would just rather not play with those people.

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 02:18 PM
"Should" has nothing to do with it as its entirely subjective. I put a fair amount of money into the game, therefore I want it to do well. CZE's goals and mine are aligned. Helping the game helps me, simple enlightened self interest. Surprisingly I came across a good community. I feel its in my best interest to try to help maintain that community as long as possible, for one reason, simply because I enjoy it. Do you know how rare it is to be able to have a civil discussion like this in a popular game so close to beta? I've read a lot of MMO forums and its pretty damn rare.
Fair enough. Just know that a lot of people that come to forums are not doing so to learn more about the game. They are coming to complain or brag or get a feel for what people think about a particular thing in the game(of course there are plenty of other reasons). Most people that come to the forums are already interested and supportive of the game idea and concept. Those people getting freebies do not help our investment in the game.

I hope there is some form of global chat, or ways to send announcements in game about events, as that is going to be the real way to promote giveaways and support a happy community that want to let all their friends know how amazing the game and the players are.

Yoss
06-13-2013, 02:20 PM
nico just gave me a great idea. Players should get (small) rewards for providing tutorial service to newbies! (And then I start to think how abusable that would be. Darn you, cheaters!)

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 02:22 PM
@Bailin

Thanks for the post-most of us seem to be in broad agreement on KS issues but differ on specifics

I think you may have misunderstood my very long original post. I was never asking Crypto to do anything, let alone provide incentives. I meant for the community itself to think about the incentives it offers (because all forums/groups generally provide incentives however subtle-for instance responding to troll posts is giving incentive for more trolls to post) and behave and post in a way thst incentivizes what you want the forum to be. So basically keep doing what we're doing but think about the consequences of your actions, broadly.

In addition I offered suggestions to organize to, in effect, pool our powers of incentivation and perhaps have more blatant giveaways to accomplish this and as an effect or side effect tighten the core community. I suggest this or something like it because otherwise this community will not last. It will be washed away on the big floods of new posters.

And I like this community. If you also like this community and want it to continue to exist, whether on this forum, another forum or within the game something has to be done. I offered suggestions but don't know if they will be effective and I welcome other suggestions. In that sense you can consider the thread and post a warning or prophecy-do nothing and the community in its present form will cease to exist, or more accurately, change into something new and likely ugly.

Justin

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 02:23 PM
nico just gave me a great idea. Players should get (small) rewards for providing tutorial service to newbies! (And then I start to think how abusable that would be. Darn you, cheaters!)

Lol, Barkam and you should have just taken 3 months off to theory-craft.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 02:34 PM
Their reasoning is no different than any of us boasting in our sigs. We are excited, proud and even slightly shocked at how much we got above our expectations and so are they. It is now time for us all to move on to the next chapter but it also proves difficult when the product doesn`t exist yet

I can understand this from a personal ego standpoint but it scares me a little from a company. I would have expected someone to say "guy's, this is costing us money and good will" by now.

Justin

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 02:40 PM
Yeah maybe if you had another 50 years (which I know you don't, oldy).


Holy shit


Also I am all for having a good community, but this doesn't mean I want an all-inclusive community either. I'm only marginally upset about the number of dupe threads on the forums, but damn some threads are just moronic. I would just rather not play with those people.

You 'd probably have a heart attack if I'd written all my thoughts and explained them fully, not doing so has caused confusion but no one would have read the damn thing.

Part of what I cut actually dealt more with your not wanting an all inclusive community. I don't want to play with those people or talk to them. I do want them to play so CZE makes more money so they develop more content faster for me. So I advocate being polite to them if you feel you "should" communicate with them but don't reply to their annoying drivel and try to post content over their heads. With luck they leave without us being rude.

Justin

Talreth
06-13-2013, 02:43 PM
You 'd probably have a heart attack if I'd written all my thoughts and explained them fully, not doing so has caused confusion but no one would have read the damn thing.

Part of what I cut actually dealt more with your not wanting an all inclusive community. I don't want to play with those people or talk to them. I do want them to play so CZE makes more money so they develop more content faster for me. So I advocate being polite to them if you feel you "should" communicate with them but don't reply to their annoying drivel and try to post content over their heads. With luck they leave without us being rude.

Justin

Yeah but depending on how many of these people we get, it just makes the community look moronic. Like League GD. Or any league forum.

BossHoss
06-13-2013, 02:58 PM
I can understand this from a personal ego standpoint but it scares me a little from a company. I would have expected someone to say "guy's, this is costing us money and good will" by now.

Justin

I understand but in CZE defense it has been less than a week since the end of KS and they have proven that they do everything to this point with the best of intentions (using the chest o` hex story as an example). It could very easily go by the wayside unintentionally when your head is down already trying to please everyone.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 03:06 PM
Fair enough. Just know that a lot of people that come to forums are not doing so to learn more about the game. They are coming to complain or brag or get a feel for what people think about a particular thing in the game(of course there are plenty of other reasons). Most people that come to the forums are already interested and supportive of the game idea and concept. Those people getting freebies do not help our investment in the game.

I hope there is some form of global chat, or ways to send announcements in also hope about events, as that is going to be the real way to promote giveaways and support a happy community that want to let all their friends know how amazing the game and the players are.

I've been reading forums and newsgroups since about 1989 or a couple years after, I have a good idea what to expect. I disagree that giving invested people gifts gives us nothing. It makes those players much happier than a non invested player getting the same gift (not always true) and they're more likely to tell their friends giving the forums/community a good reputation and making an ally for the gift giver(s) (it can make sense to give gifts as a group so all the people "giving the gift" get a benefit but this also has downsides).

I also hope for a global channel. It also makes sense to give gifts in game but you get different benefits. There is room and value to both in my opinion.

I started this thread because I'm excited about the game-I love game design, especially MMO design and am very interested on TCG design though I don't know as much. I usually prefer lurking in forums reading about the design of the game to actually playing it as it usually disappoints.I have a feeling this game is going to be different and when I saw it actually had a good community I decided to try to mix many of my interests above with those of social dynamics, psychology and philosophy among others to see if I could exert any influence in solidifying and saving a community I like a lot.

I probably can't, but who knows. I'm interested in collaborative group efforts to try to do things usually the devas, if anybody, would do. I'd like to see what kind of effect on the dynamics of the game a very large group of kickstarter could have, or a "guild of guilds" devoted to the betterment of the game. Such a group could incentivize tutorials of newbies as Yoss suggests, without the devas, without abuse concerns.

At the least its an interesting idea and thought experiment that I'd like to try it for real even with the low probability of success.

I'd like to thank you Nick for a civil discussion, you definitely made me think about things and doing more in game probably makes sense.

Have to leave now (everyone cheers), have insomnia and haven't slept in over 24 hours which is probably why I seem nuts.

Thanks all.

Justin

Kerustyx
06-13-2013, 04:05 PM
Honestly this all stems from the fact that the original tiers were just too good. They gave us way too much value for being early. I understand why they did it, being worried that this wouldn't take off, but I think it's going to end up causing a lot of problems down the line, and I hope it doesn't injure the long term viability of the game as a whole. No amount of taking it down will correct that imbalance. The slackerbacker looks terrible compared to the KS tiers, definitely. I have reservations on it being a good investment at all, since I'm pretty sure you can end up with more set 1 cards for your money trading on the AH at launch considering the glut that KS backers will have to unload.


Thank you.

ossuary
06-13-2013, 04:08 PM
Interesting thread.

I think the main things we need to focus on are making sure to be helpful and kind to new posters, and trying to convince people to stop responding to people once a disagreement has degenerated (or started out!) to the point of sniping / fighting. Don't feed the trolls; they don't care if your responses are logical or not, or if they are polite or not, they just want to get under your skin.

It would be nice to see some more moderation going on, too, from CZE's side of things. I've seen OP_Kyle stamping down the stupid a few times in the last week, but the news about Hex is starting to get out, and it's only a matter of time before the floodgates open. CZE needs to be prepared to take an active hand in pruning the garden, or things can get out of control quickly (and possibly irreversibly).

We have a good thing going here, so far. I'd certainly like to keep it that way. :)

Demar_Black
06-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Good post in the OP.

It makes sense to have a good community to expand the consumer base which will keep the game going as long as possible.

stiii
06-13-2013, 07:04 PM
I'm not really clear on what exactly the OP wants rewarded? Like what exactly would people be doing to get these rewards?

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 07:36 PM
I'm not really clear on what exactly the OP wants rewarded? Like what exactly would people be doing to get these rewards?

Ex use me if this doesn't make sense, I am very sleep deprived. I kept the details intentionally vague because everyone one should incentivize the behavior that they feel contributes to the "community". I'm thinking of "good" content filled posts, helpful behavior and really anything that they think will help the game grow.

You can just think of it as a philosophical point that hopefully makes you think about your own behavior and actions and how it may have unintended consequences, like feeding trolls or making a joke at a naive newbies expense.

I would like the community to come together ideally and come to a consensus on what social norms they want the community to have, what actions and behaviors are most likely to foster these norms and people collectively act in the ways decided that will most likely make the community that is desired. Its not something I can dictate from a top down level. Its also unlikely to happen. However many people in this thread decided that keeping your KS tiers in your sig was likely detrimental to the game in the long term and removed theirs. Looking at the forums I seem to see a lot less of those sigs though that's probably an attention bias, still some effect was had that demonstrates the plausibility of that part of the post and I'm happy about that.

I conflated several issues in my overly long lost so that only explains part of my hopes. These are not simple issues and I can't explain them quickly and accurately but hopefully some part of my point was made. If not, well, I've been awake for 40 hours ;)

I still have fear for the long term viability of the community and I don't have adequate solutions. If the game is successful the forum will be flooded and the existing community out numbered 25 to 1 with 90+% of those people newbies and 20+% trolls and/or idiots. There will almost certainly be hundreds, if not thousands of posts complaining about the kickstarter and comments like "WTF we have to pay for cards lame" "lol magiclone" "y don we get 1 mana a turn its so stupit" and far, far worse. Social norms won't deal with this. Some of my ideas may help but I doubt much, if any.

At this point one of the only ways I see of saving the community, at least on this forum is not allowing new posters after a certain date or more realistically (but not by much) a separate forum where you have to have joined by a certain date to post. Or a KS only forum ;) that wouldn't cause any problems...

The community may have to move entirely in game to survive in anything like its present state and that would still cause drastic change.

If people have other suggestions I'd love to hear them. I've seen this cycle in many games and its not pretty.

Justin

nicosharp
06-13-2013, 08:55 PM
You need sleep.
The community is not even established yet.
The game will foster the community.
The features in the game will evolve the community.
Generosity in the game will promote it's continued growth and play.

Stop trying to build bunkers before there are even threats of bombs.
(essentially building bunkers in the wrong end of the world, where the bombs won't even reach. I still feel that forums are not the ideal medium. However, they do still provide a narrow form of advertising.)

stiii
06-13-2013, 09:51 PM
You can just think of it as a philosophical point that hopefully makes you think about your own behavior and actions and how it may have unintended consequences, like feeding trolls or making a joke at a naive newbies expense.



I guess I really should stop replying to people who admit they are trolls.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 10:29 PM
You need sleep.
The community is not even established yet.
The game will foster the community.
The features in the game will evolve the community.
Generosity in the game will promote it's continued growth and play.

Stop trying to build bunkers before there are even threats of bombs.
(essentially building bunkers in the wrong end of the world, where the bombs won't even reach. I still feel that forums are not the ideal medium. However, they do still provide a narrow form of advertising.)

I disagree with much except that I need sleep so I won't go into detail. Based on my experience with every forum for every MMO I've ever read there absolutely is a threat. I've seen enough pleasant communities destroyed in one massive influx of players, never to recover that I'd be foolish not to thing there was at least a fair possibility of it happening here.

Will post more tomorrow, definitely glad you contributed, not only would it have likely been pretty boring otherwise you definitely focused my thinking in several areas and I think I was undervaluing in game functions for some things (ideally everything in every MMO would all be in game, especially for sandbox games but we're not at that point yet I don't think and out of game communities will probably also always have value for pulling in people who don't already play the game) but I think you've undervalued things on the other side. But its all subjective. Will post more tomorrow, going to make one short (for me) and go to bed.

Thanks again.

Justin

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 10:33 PM
I guess I really should stop replying to people who admit they are trolls.

Probably ;) There is one type of troll that I've seen be useful. The troll who trolls other trolls and stupid people. They're like a forum/community defense system/antimissile defense. The best example I've ever seen is Terry Austen on rec.arts. sf.written. Haven't been there for a while but I bet he's still there. The king of trolls.

Justinkp
06-13-2013, 10:46 PM
I had one idea that a group community project may help with. If I understand correctly you can't pull gold out of the Auction House which opens up many opportunities to be scammed. If a large segment of the early community, multiple guilds and many kickstarters with incentive in the game's success ran an exchange house it could be the safest and most trusted way of doing such transactions.

I don't know the best way to set something like this up but I can easily find this out. I also don't know if the exchange rate should be one to one like buying in (I assume so) or if the market should decide the exchange rate and if so how to do this but I could also easily figure this out.

What do people think? This is a service that the community needs and if the community doesn't provide it sleazy, money grubbers will.

I assume there's no problem talking about this kind of thing as CZE will be staying away from the secondary posf and the only posts not allowed are those selling tiers, but if I'm mistaken I will edit the post or please delete the post but don't lock or delete the thread.

Thanks everybody, I hope for fruitful discussion tomorrow.

Justin

RobHaven
06-13-2013, 11:31 PM
Justin's grammar was on a downward spiral since about midway through the thread. Dude needs sleep.


While forum communities are a great sample size of the active population of any given game, many casual gamers (that will make up the large majority of this games playerbase) often do not visit forums. I may argue that providing prizes, and give-aways would be better served when the retail game launches through the game platform itself.

I completely agree. Only a percentage of the players read the forums, but everyone plays the game. You could hold a competition [advertised in game] awarding X boosters to Y players who send you a PM "registering" for the competition and make at least Z meaningful posts before the competition deadline. That would not only drive in traffic, but get the new traffic to make a meaningful contribution.

One thing I fully intend on doing is regularly offering custom tournaments for players below rank X. There would be little-to-no entry fee, and I'd like to have experienced players spectating the matches to give pointers afterward. Prizes would be awarded to the tournament winner and one or two random players. Anyone displaying poor sportsmanship or a negative attitude would be immediately made ineligible for prizes.


Also I am all for having a good community, but this doesn't mean I want an all-inclusive community either. I'm only marginally upset about the number of dupe threads on the forums, but damn some threads are just moronic. I would just rather not play with those people.

While I share your frustration about the duplicate threads, I don't share your sentiments on less-intelligent players. There's a general understanding in poker that you [I]want bad players in the game. With every bad player at the table, your likelihood to win increases. Even though I intend to bring up the less experienced players who are making an honest effort to learn the game, I have no issues with annihilating the ignorant players who can't be bothered to gain enough awareness to improve themselves.

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 04:42 AM
I can't shake the feeling that you have a vested interest in the KS community offering freebies on the forums???
I rather give them to those players that joined the same guild. And the Pay-it-forward technique to friends of friends of friends. If I had no friends, I guess the general forums would be a lazy and global alternative.

Also something about forum communities and greed make me very hesitant to vocalize give-aways unless it was benefiting me personally. (sad but true, as there is not much thanks in freebies or relationships built from them - specially in this very disconnected way of offering it.)

I'm not sure what vested interest I could have. Mostly its simply that the forums are all that exist at this moment so I perhaps over emphasized them.

Giving to friends and guild mates is completely understandable though I've found in the past giving to strangers can make new relationships and end up helping you in the long run-the people are also often more appreciative and more likely to mention the friendliness of the community. Some of the moments I remember best in past games are when strangers helped me and went out of their way to teach me the game or get me basic equipment. Maybe I was just lucky in my interactions.

I have come around largely to your point of view of building community in game. I still would like the forums to be as high quality as possible as they're a place everyone can go to and connect many of the micro communities to the community as a whole. Its also useful to have a place where you can have good discussions about improving the game and new ideas. It will be difficult with the number of whiners and trolls likely to be on the forum after release.

Justin

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 05:01 AM
Justin's grammar was on a downward spiral since about midway through the thread. Dude needs sleep.



I completely agree. Only a percentage of the players read the forums, but everyone plays the game. You could hold a competition [advertised in game] awarding X boosters to Y players who send you a PM "registering" for the competition and make at least Z meaningful posts before the competition deadline. That would not only drive in traffic, but get the new traffic to make a meaningful contribution.

One thing I fully intend on doing is regularly offering custom tournaments for players below rank X. There would be little-to-no entry fee, and I'd like to have experienced players spectating the matches to give pointers afterward. Prizes would be awarded to the tournament winner and one or two random players. Anyone displaying poor sportsmanship or a negative attitude would be immediately made ineligible for prizes.



While I share your frustration about the duplicate threads, I don't share your sentiments on less-intelligent players. There's a general understanding in poker that you [I]want bad players in the game. With every bad player at the table, your likelihood to win increases. Even though I intend to bring up the less experienced players who are making an honest effort to learn the game, I have no issues with annihilating the ignorant players who can't be bothered to gain enough awareness to improve themselves.

Insomnia sucks. Fortunately its not as chronic as it was when I was younger but when it hits me it hits me hard. Interesting effects on consciousness though. Looking through the thread I didn't see much bad grammar in my posts, I thought they were pretty good for bring awake 40+ hours.

I love your tournament idea, this is the kind of thing I'd really like to see. I was also thinking the exact thing regarding wanting bad players in the game, I just didn't want to say it. :)

I was hoping there would be some discussion of the community bank idea though I didn't think the exchange rate issue through. The bank would have to sell plat at less than CZE is selling it for and buy plat for real money at a lower exchange rate as well. I'm not sure if there would be any legal issues involved, but it would be nice to create a fair institution to stop the sleazy alternatives from proliferating.

I haven't seen discussion on this but is the game going to all be on one server, that is only one game world? It seems possible based on the design of the game and would make possible some very large groups that would have an interesting effect on community. I came up with some fun ideas that I'll post later.

Justin

RobHaven
06-15-2013, 05:13 AM
Looking through the thread I didn't see much bad grammar in my posts, I thought they were pretty good for bring awake 40+ hours.
...
I was hoping there would be some discussion of the community bank idea though I didn't think the exchange rate issue through.

I was just breaking your balls about the grammar stuff. You were fine.

RE: Bank
This is going to have to be done by one person, and it'll have to be someone who is a trusted member of the community (who has the resources to do it). I've seen similar ideas pop up a few times, and each time I really consider doing it myself. Am I trusted member of the community? Maybe not just yet, but I intend on being around for a while. The biggest issues are accountability, the fact that real-money-exchanges have to happen through a third party, and how does the "banker" screen for hacked accounts being sold off?

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 05:31 AM
I was just breaking your balls about the grammar stuff. You were fine.

RE: Bank
This is going to have to be done by one person, and it'll have to be someone who is a trusted member of the community (who has the resources to do it). I've seen similar ideas pop up a few times, and each time I really consider doing it myself. Am I trusted member of the community? Maybe not just yet, but I intend on being around for a while. The biggest issues are accountability, the fact that real-money-exchanges have to happen through a third party, and how does the "banker" screen for hacked accounts being sold off?

Why does it have to be one person? I was hoping for a big group both to alleviate trust concerns and to spread the financial risk which could be considerable (I've been talking about this with my father whose a professor of economics at Penn, he's quite interested in the economy of these games and would help set up a bank).

And I would assume selling accounts would be against the TOS (but maybe not), I was thinking of only dealing with currency. Unless you mean hacking an account and selling the currency off-I hadn't thought of that but once they hack an account and transfer the plat to another account I'm not sure what could be done. Its similar to a thief in the real world stealing money and depositing it in his bank account, or stealing a watch and selling it to a pawnshop.

Edit: And do you know if there will be one game world? This would make a bank much easier as well as very large groups, like a University-for teaching and tutoring players.

Justin

RobHaven
06-15-2013, 05:48 AM
I thought one person would be easier than a group because there are fewer moving parts. One person is making decisions, adjusting rates, etc. You could do it with two or three people, but any more than that and you open up serious potential for mismanagement through miscommunication. I suppose a very well organized guild could do it [eg: real life Knights Templar], but it would have to have a very clear breakdown of the way things would operate, as well as VERY strong guild leadership.

There is substantial risk involved, which is why you would have to build in a safety net. If I were to do it, I wouldn't be looking to make any sort of significant profit; that being said, I'd have to make some profit so that I'm insulated against a sudden shift in the market or some other unforeseen variable.

Sorry, yeah - I meant people hacking accounts and using the bank to liquidate the hacked account's assets. Naturally the player would want their stuff back; I'd want to accommodate them, but then I'm out the money paid to the hacker.

Not sure about the server breakdown. I'd like to think we're all on one server, but they might have to break everyone up to reduce stress.

Atomzed
06-15-2013, 06:05 AM
Justin, very long posts with noble intentions. I applaud you for the efforts.

However I more inclined to agree with nicosharp. It is too early to attempt to do anything more. Or to be more specific, responsible posters should just continue to do what they are doing. Post in a mature manner, and avoiding flame wars.

Having been another gaming community who grow to be supportive and polite, I believe that trying to work out a social norm within the whole community is very difficult. It's easier to break it down into manageable portions; guilds are the best unit to set the tone right.

Reasons:1) Guilds will have their own leaders and code of conduct to manage their members. 2) Guilds members will have more interaction time, will know each other better and more likely to listen to advices (eg stop feeding the troll).

I think an excellent example is Clan Black Blade "Code of conduct". If we get sufficient guilds to have such kind of conduct, it will help the community in the long run.

(p.s. I am not a member of CBB, so I'm not blowing my or their trumpet. It's a sincere compliment; I believe that a gaming community with such code of conduct will go far).

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 06:10 AM
Interesting thread.

I think the main things we need to focus on are making sure to be helpful and kind to new posters, and trying to convince people to stop responding to people once a disagreement has degenerated (or started out!) to the point of sniping / fighting. Don't feed the trolls; they don't care if your responses are logical or not, or if they are polite or not, they just want to get under your skin.

It would be nice to see some more moderation going on, too, from CZE's side of things. I've seen OP_Kyle stamping down the stupid a few times in the last week, but the news about Hex is starting to get out, and it's only a matter of time before the floodgates open. CZE needs to be prepared to take an active hand in pruning the garden, or things can get out of control quickly (and possibly irreversibly).

We have a good thing going here, so far. I'd certainly like to keep it that way. :)

Alas, things won't stay this way as the community will evolve for better or worse and this forum will be completely different with 50-100 times as many people. The only way to keep things roughly the same is for everyone to migrate to a private forum or to block new forum accounts from being able to post here.

The forum and community will evolve and all we can do is try to make it evolve in a good way. I agree more with nicosharp that focus for community growth should be put into in game activities although I still think he undervalues the forums as a way of growing the player base and organizing in game activities among other things.

As the early adopters, most with KS rewards that give us an appreciable early advantage I think there is much we can offer the community as a whole and hopefully guide the growing community to a healthy state. Online communities are tricky as they lack many of the real world mechanisms that help keep communities healthy, like the fact that you'll get punched in the face if you act too out of line. Add to this anonymity and an excess of children (of all ages) and online communities tend to deteriorate over time.

With a good early community of people invested in the game we have a unique opportunity to organize in order to counteract the negative forces that drag a community down and have fun while doing so.


Justin

Atomzed
06-15-2013, 06:12 AM
And oh, with regards to nominating "leaders", I think you can't make a community choose at such early stage. Leaders will emerge as the community grow. You don't pick them; they just become influential through their actions and words.

I also have a strong interest in philosophy and psychology and hence I will give a fair warning on incentivizing behaviors. While such rewards system (positive reinforcement) will increase the desired behavior in the short run, there is a risk that people engage in such behaviors purely for the rewards. That's not a good thing because you want people to engage in such actions out of a personal desire to do so, not for the rewards.

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 06:51 AM
I thought one person would be easier than a group because there are fewer moving parts. One person is making decisions, adjusting rates, etc. You could do it with two or three people, but any more than that and you open up serious potential for mismanagement through miscommunication. I suppose a very well organized guild could do it [eg: real life Knights Templar], but it would have to have a very clear breakdown of the way things would operate, as well as VERY strong guild leadership.

There is substantial risk involved, which is why you would have to build in a safety net. If I were to do it, I wouldn't be looking to make any sort of significant profit; that being said, I'd have to make some profit so that I'm insulated against a sudden shift in the market or some other unforeseen variable.

Sorry, yeah - I meant people hacking accounts and using the bank to liquidate the hacked account's assets. Naturally the player would want their stuff back; I'd want to accommodate them, but then I'm out the money paid to the hacker.

Not sure about the server breakdown. I'd like to think we're all on one server, but they might have to break everyone up to reduce stress.

It seems a lot of work for one, or even several people especially if it is one game world but more people does make the organization harder as well as making it more unlikely someone unethical gets in. The control over the total assets would need to be kept in the hands of one or a couple people. More people do allow more oversight and spreading the risk to many people which would allow the profit margin to be lower which helps everyone.

It would be interesting to have actual bank accounts that offer interest giving the bank more plat to trade or offering loans to low risk guilds-probably opens up too many issues to be worth it though, particularly at the start.

A bank/currency exchange that's operating for the community and not for profit is good for everyone though. There are issues with how to organize it, I'll have to talk to my father about the best way he thinks this could be done.

This is the kind of thing that's much easier to plan for now while the community is small and would be much harder to do later.

I really like the idea of several organizations much larger than guilds operating in the world. It would make the game feel more fun and would really help the community if there was a player training university or an organization capable of running huge tournaments. There are a lot of possibilities.

Edit: I forgot the hacking point. I'm not sure how to handle this. There's no way to tell if the plat is really theirs so should the bank be responsible? Should a store be responsible if they accept stolen cash? How would the victim even know the plat went through the currency exchange, I'd think they'd only contact CZE if they were hacked. And depending on the nature of the hack it would seem to be CZE's responsibility to reimburse them.

Justin

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 07:00 AM
Justin, very long posts with noble intentions. I applaud you for the efforts.

However I more inclined to agree with nicosharp. It is too early to attempt to do anything more. Or to be more specific, responsible posters should just continue to do what they are doing. Post in a mature manner, and avoiding flame wars.

Having been another gaming community who grow to be supportive and polite, I believe that trying to work out a social norm within the whole community is very difficult. It's easier to break it down into manageable portions; guilds are the best unit to set the tone right.

Reasons:1) Guilds will have their own leaders and code of conduct to manage their members. 2) Guilds members will have more interaction time, will know each other better and more likely to listen to advices (eg stop feeding the troll).

I think an excellent example is Clan Black Blade "Code of conduct". If we get sufficient guilds to have such kind of conduct, it will help the community in the long run.

(p.s. I am not a member of CBB, so I'm not blowing my or their trumpet. It's a sincere compliment; I believe that a gaming community with such code of conduct will go far).

Thanks for the feedback!

I think we have a window of opportunity to organize now while the community is small and well behaved that will soon disappear as the community grows and splits into micro communities.

You're right that creating social norms is hard, perhaps impossible to do effectively, but it can't hurt for people to think about the effects of what they post. At the very least I hope I've encouraged more people to think about that. And any effect on social norms will be pretty much impossible to measure so we'll never know if it helped in anyway.

I like the idea of encouraging guilds to have codes of behavior. See you didn't think there was anything to be done now and you still came up with a good idea! ;)

Justin

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 07:09 AM
And oh, with regards to nominating "leaders", I think you can't make a community choose at such early stage. Leaders will emerge as the community grow. You don't pick them; they just become influential through their actions and words.

I also have a strong interest in philosophy and psychology and hence I will give a fair warning on incentivizing behaviors. While such rewards system (positive reinforcement) will increase the desired behavior in the short run, there is a risk that people engage in such behaviors purely for the rewards. That's not a good thing because you want people to engage in such actions out of a personal desire to do so, not for the rewards.

Leaders was the wrong word to use, you're right. And I was more interested in identifying those people already looked at as community "leaders" or key members of the community. Really for the things I'm discussing a consensus based decision making model is likely the only thing that will work.

And you're right many people will only act for whatever the incentive is, but if the incentive is attention when they post good content I don't have a problem if that's the only reason they're doing it-we still get better content. In addition people will often start out acting for the incentive but internalize the behavior. You make an interesting point, but I'm not sure when incentives would ever lead to a worse situation. At the worst it seems people would go back to their original behavior if the incentive is removed.

Justin

Atomzed
06-15-2013, 07:12 AM
Well I probably didn't explain myself clearer. We definitely can do something now, but will it be effective? I don't think so... Or at least at a broad community level that you are envisioning.

However I think we can improve the community, 1 post, 1 thread at a time. It's cliche, but I think that's the best way to do it on a forum.

Btw, I did a similar thing in my gaming community, setting a thread to discuss code of conduct. I didn't get much responses. I realized that a lot of gamers don't like to think too much about such broad woolly stuff. On the other hand, if enough people and guilds take the lead to say the right things, it will work. So I have eschew such broad discussions and settled on 'fighting' 1 thread/1 post at a time. :)

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 07:27 AM
Well I probably didn't explain myself clearer. We definitely can do something now, but will it be effective? I don't think so... Or at least at a broad community level that you are envisioning.

However I think we can improve the community, 1 post, 1 thread at a time. It's cliche, but I think that's the best way to do it on a forum.

Btw, I did a similar thing in my gaming community, setting a thread to discuss code of conduct. I didn't get much responses. I realized that a lot of gamers don't like to think too much about such broad woolly stuff. On the other hand, if enough people and guilds take the lead to say the right things, it will work. So I have eschew such broad discussions and settled on 'fighting' 1 thread/1 post at a time. :)

I think acting now, or planning and organizing now rather, is the only time it will really be effective. Once there are thousands more people in the forum it will be unlikely for the original community to have much of an effect.

I do think we should think of acting at a one post, one thread level and that's one of the things I was attempting to foster the most because I know anything else is unlikely.

I meant to ask in my earlier response, how large was the game you were playing that you said grew into a good community? My concern is the more popular the game is, the worse the community will be. It probably won't effect many of us (unless we're still trying to use the forum) as we'll likely be in guilds and playing with only them or our friends for PvE and we can easily ignore people in PvP, but the new players will be the ones to suffer which may lower the player base and hurt all of us.

Justin

Justinkp
06-15-2013, 07:56 AM
Couple of small things that will help the forums especially when we start getting a large influx of new players.

Having a consolidated list of threads answering common questions so you can just reply with a URL.

Making either a post or webpage explaining apologetically that KS tiers are no longer available but that it won't have much effect in the long term and that the sooner you start playing the more likely you are of getting access to other limited time opportunities that will make future players jealous of what you have. It will really help to be able to reply with a link to this post/page to all of the many KS whine posts there will be.

Justin