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yovalord
06-14-2013, 09:49 AM
(i took this out of another thread it was brought up around page 17 or so so few of you probably seen it.)

So lets say somebody buys.... 50,000 hex accounts. Signs them all up for VIP, and intends on selling every single booster pack, if he sells them for anything over 1$ ea, he is making a profit. Right away this problem can and WILL throw booster packs market value to <1$. Will there be any counter measures to prevent this?

My suggestion would be to make VIP boosters untrade/sellable.

Edited in:
------------------------Hypothetical Example Situation------------------------
I am a wealthy Chinese man/woman (i say Chinese because its the hardest to actually prosecute anybody running anything from china), i have been in the digital 3rd market trading business for years, i have my own office area that i run my own business out of. I can buy 50,000 (this number doesnt matter, it could be 1 hundred - 1 million) prepaid credit cards ((irl i work at a gas station, i sell a ton of these every day, its not illegal to do so, you can buy as many as you want)). I link each of these to a hex account, maybe i scripted to make 50k hex accounts, maybe i have employees, it doesn't matter how i got it done, i have also spoofed the IPs. I buy a VIP account for each of these, and on my website "www.buyhexcards.com" i sell hex boosters for lets say, $1.25 each and primal's for more (lets say the market AH value is $1.40). I can launder packs pretty easily through the AH if i need to without losing much profit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what are the flaws and risks i am actually taking in this hypothetical scenario.

-I am not using stolen credit cards, they are 100% legit and legal
-The account that makes the trade could be banned in a sting situation and there could be some loss, but on a massive scale it wouldn't equate to much.
-Accounts "activity" isnt really a strong indicator of if an account is being malicious or not, and could easily be refuted in emails by people simply sending a ticket to support and claiming to be a unique different person.
-The AH market value could drop to below 1$ which would destroy any chance at profits.
-They are selling the packs right off the website for real currency, so they are NOT locked into platinum.
-A few years down the line, there may be MILLIONS of players on hex, making this much harder to detect as there will be many accounts with little activity as well.

Some people are asking What is the problem with this anyway? Crypto is making money, people are getting boosters for less! The answer to this is, Crypto is actually losing 50% of what they would make on retail boosters by this happening. It devalues their game and screws the economy.

Anyway, in closing, there are plenty of people in this thread saying the efforts wouldn't be worth it, but if you do the math, it could potentially be tens of thousands of dollars profits give or take depending on how big you go.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Damnit woman I told you to wait in the car while I`m doing business out here... You`re ruining my plan

Daer
06-14-2013, 09:51 AM
Each account needs a unique form of payment.

And we didn't need another thread about this.

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 09:52 AM
(i took this out of another thread it was brought up around page 17 or so so few of you probably seen it.)

So lets say somebody buys.... 50,000 hex accounts. Signs them all up for VIP, and intends on selling every single booster pack, if he sells them for anything over 1$ ea, he is making a profit. Right away this problem can and WILL throw booster packs market value to <1$. Will there be any counter measures to prevent this?

My suggestion would be to make VIP boosters untrade/sellable.

There was a thread on this topic two days ago...

Tathel
06-14-2013, 09:53 AM
Before end of kickstarter there was a long discussion thread about this.

Sum up:
1) they are tying to credit card and limiting so they would ne 50k CCs
2) Cory says they are going to have decent anti-bot (although really anything can be circumvented to an extent)
3) The level of time and automation it would take is likely not worth it because if you somehow streamlined number 4 would happen
4) If this becomes an issue then can probably quickly change things

Verdant
06-14-2013, 09:53 AM
You do understand that you need $200,000 and 50,000 credit card numbers to set up such a scheme?

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 09:56 AM
You do understand that you need $200,000 and 50,000 credit card numbers to set up such a scheme?

No, just 50,000 credit card numbers, which are available on the black market en masse...

No one doing this would be using their OWN credit card numbers.

jaxsonbateman
06-14-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't know if I want them account bound, seeing as I like the idea of potentially being able to profit off of them, and use the proceeds to enter constructed (money still stays with Crypto, I just get to play how I want). But I imagine that the unique-payment method will make this very difficult.

Having said that, when I asked about not-merging-KS-accounts they did tell me the one thing I couldn't do was sign up to VIP with them both, so it is something they're wary of. Don't know what they might do about it though.

Avaian
06-14-2013, 09:58 AM
If pack prices drop below $1, they then begin to lose money...so I don't understand the problem.

Phisbut
06-14-2013, 10:02 AM
Won't it be super easy for CZE to detect such accounts and simply ban them? If an account is VIP, never plays a single game, and always trades its free booster pack, flag it as suspicious and ban it if necessary. Not that complicated.

MatWith1T
06-14-2013, 10:05 AM
No, just 50,000 credit card numbers, which are available on the black market en masse...

No one doing this would be using their OWN credit card numbers.

I wouldn't really classify this as an 'exploit,' that falls more in the major felony category :)

Turtlewing
06-14-2013, 10:37 AM
(i took this out of another thread it was brought up around page 17 or so so few of you probably seen it.)

So lets say somebody buys.... 50,000 hex accounts. Signs them all up for VIP, and intends on selling every single booster pack, if he sells them for anything over 1$ ea, he is making a profit. Right away this problem can and WILL throw booster packs market value to <1$. Will there be any counter measures to prevent this?

My suggestion would be to make VIP boosters untrade/sellable.

That behavior will be detectable with analytics on the server logs. CZE has confirmed that they intend to use said analytics and will issue bans as necessary.

Hatts
06-14-2013, 10:40 AM
You don't need to make them account bound, you just need to detect the behavior and flag it for review. Cory has talked about this a number of times.

papalorax
06-14-2013, 10:47 AM
so what? CZE is willing to sell VIP and therefore they should be thrilled with getting as many VIP customers as possible. Does it really matter if one person create 50,000 account or 50,000 people have VIP on one account? Same number of packs being sold at the CZE discount price.

Packs are going to be worth about $1 on the open market ... you would like need to convert packs to plat then plat to $$...for a few cents?

nicosharp
06-14-2013, 10:48 AM
So much effort for such little reward.
I can think of about a million better ways to make money.. scamming or not.
The VIP system is not going to be easily abused, and the gain from abusing it is laughable.

jaxsonbateman
06-14-2013, 10:50 AM
As much as Crypto probably doesn't mind more profits in general, they have said (at least to me) that they don't want one person on multiple accounts being signed up to VIP.

"HI Jaxson. We will not merge accounts that late into the game’s release. You’re free to not merge them. The only thing we would not want is using both accounts to sign up for the VIP subscription. Thanks for your support."

jai151
06-14-2013, 10:51 AM
All the discussion on how much potential for profit there is is moot since CZE has already stated it's not allowed and controls are in place. So the issue that needs to be addressed already was and we can let this die now, right?

UltimateGranis
06-14-2013, 10:54 AM
Oh no, the potential for people to do something evil with something good? No way that could never happen. When Joe Pesci killed a man with a pen, clearly it meant that the law on pens should be changed; as pens can be exploited too easily for murder. This grand sense of paranoia has become ridiculous.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 10:55 AM
So I can't purchase 50,000 prepaids and make 50,000 accounts...

I beg to differ.

jai151
06-14-2013, 10:56 AM
So I can't purchase 50,000 prepaids and make 50,000 accounts...

I beg to differ.

You can, just don't expect to actually have it work.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 10:58 AM
You can, just don't expect to actually have it work.

How would setting up an account using a random name/pass generator "not work?"

I understand you have faith in CZE, as do I. But there are limits to ones control over the internet, just ask our banking system.

BossHoss
06-14-2013, 10:58 AM
So I can't purchase 50,000 prepaids and make 50,000 accounts...

I beg to differ.

I say if you`ve got $200,000 plus prepaid fees laying around and the time to juggle 50,000 accounts, passwords, trades, sales and cashouts... Giv `er

I would`ve bought all 15 Producers instead and have $50,000 in my pocket

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:00 AM
How would setting up an account using a random name/pass generator "not work?"

I understand you have faith in CZE, as do I. But there are limits to ones control over the internet, just ask our banking system.

Unless you're traveling around the world to get 50,000 different IPs (or using a spoofer that can change IPs at a rate fast enough to keep up) and never centralizing the profit, there are plenty of ways to identify and stop that.

UltimateGranis
06-14-2013, 11:01 AM
How would setting up an account using a random name/pass generator "not work?"

I understand you have faith in CZE, as do I. But there are limits to ones control over the internet, just ask our banking system.

Your rationality could be applied to everything in life, but it's not. There's no law on owning a kitchen knife, but people can still kill with them. This issue while not perfect, is an elaborate illustration of every day life. I'm sorry it has to be that way.

ConnorJS
06-14-2013, 11:02 AM
Although you are all dismissing this I do think that potentially there could be a large issue here... If there is a way then somebody will exploit it on a mass scale. I guess 1 acc per CC would work to an extent, but what about if they wanna use paypal?

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:05 AM
I say if you`ve got $200,000 plus prepaid fees laying around and the time to juggle 50,000 accounts, passwords, trades, sales and cashouts... Giv `er

Yes, because people can't write a script to login to an account daily and transfer items to another account. I am sure that is beyond the capabilities of human beings.

BTW, you will not be finding these exploiters selling their boosters on the AH.

You will get a message in game that goes a bit something like this:

"You like game? www.igotpacksforless.com has all BOOSTERS on sale now for $1.25 per pack and $10 per PRIMAL! YOU buy now!"

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 11:05 AM
No, just 50,000 credit card numbers, which are available on the black market en masse...

No one doing this would be using their OWN credit card numbers.


And those credit card numbers aren't free. And most of them are legitimate cards that that have been stolen and will be deactivated very quickly!

If someone is going to spend the time and money to invest in fraudulent credit cards on the black market, they AREN'T going to use it to spoof 50,000 accounts on a digital TCG to game the system to make money...

They'll just buy the shit they want with the fradulent cards they have rather than try to make money off of a game...

The time investment + money investment + risk doesn't not nearly out weigh the reward on making money off digital cards. Especially since they'll get 1 month of the VIP service at best on some of the cards since the will be reported lost/stolen/flagged for inappropriate use!

What they MIGHT do is use these cards to do cash withdrawls, then deposit the cash into their account, to game the auction house with boosters, buy out the AH while it's low then sell high type deal.

But again, WHY? You're trading REAL LIFE funds for DIGITAL currency in a GAME.

If you have access to black market cards you don't NEED to game Hex, you're gaming real life already! You can score a card for $50, withdraw a cash profit out of it (sometimes a lot) and then just use that money to buy w/e you want in the game rather than trying to game Hex's digital AH to make the money instead of buying it with your fraudulent cash!



There's absolutely no reaosn for anyone to want to do this!


And if someone does try to game the AH that way on a smaller scale, I'm sure they'll catch on to it and ban said person.

So either way you're screwed!

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 11:05 AM
~ Pretty sure CZE has it covered... The End... Next thread please ~

jaxsonbateman
06-14-2013, 11:05 AM
At some point, they'd have to sell those boosters. The dummy accounts would probably have no other activity on them, which would make them highly detectable. Once they sell the boosters, if they leave the money on the account, it's going to get deleted and disappear. If have another account to send it to, then that account will get deleted.

Pretty much, they'd have to have a third party buyer for the platinum and send it to them immediately. And if they include a "don't buy platinum from third party dealers" in the ToS (even if they ignore it most of the time), then they'd have every right to ban the person who does get sent the platinum, even if it's not the person who had the 50k accounts.

Of course, I'm not savvy to this whole working-around-the-system thing or how CZE might protect themselves, so someone please tell me if my theory of why it probably wouldn't work is wrong.

calisk
06-14-2013, 11:06 AM
wouldn't it be easier for the people buying these packs to just be vip?

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:06 AM
Unless you're traveling around the world to get 50,000 different IPs (or using a spoofer that can change IPs at a rate fast enough to keep up) and never centralizing the profit, there are plenty of ways to identify and stop that.

Yes, because I have to physically be in one place to use it's IP address. /facepalm

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 11:07 AM
~ Pretty sure CZE has it covered... The End... Next thread please ~

Thank you Captain Obvious

UltimateGranis
06-14-2013, 11:07 AM
Although you are all dismissing this I do think that potentially there could be a large issue here... If there is a way then somebody will exploit it on a mass scale. I guess 1 acc per CC would work to an extent, but what about if they wanna use paypal?

I'm not dismissing anything, just stating that this potentiality is within all things. There's a large issue concerning credit card companies. There's a large issue concerning healthcare benefits. All of these things are corrupted in some way or another, yet we're still living on a reasonable planet. (Opinion of course) If this is removed or fixed, then people will just find something else to exploit. Such is the way of man I'm afraid.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:07 AM
wouldn't it be easier for the people buying these packs to just be vip?

Yes, but that does limit you to 4 packs per month where the player base will want more that... its a demand thing.

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:08 AM
Yes, because people can't write a script to login to an account daily and transfer items to another account. I am sure that is beyond the capabilities of human beings.

BTW, you will not be finding these exploiters selling their boosters on the AH.

You will get a message in game that goes a bit something like this:

"You like game? www.igotpacksforless.com has all BOOSTERS on sale now for $1.25 per pack and $10 per PRIMAL! YOU buy now!"

As soon as they transfer to another account, they're busted. As soon as that spam is reported, they're busted.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 11:08 AM
Yes, because people can't write a script to login to an account daily and transfer items to another account. I am sure that is beyond the capabilities of human beings.

BTW, you will not be finding these exploiters selling their boosters on the AH.

You will get a message in game that goes a bit something like this:

"You like game? www.igotpacksforless.com has all BOOSTERS on sale now for $1.25 per pack and $10 per PRIMAL! YOU buy now!"

~ Your spelling is too good... Pretty sure it`ll look like this: Yu lyke gamen? www.igotpacks4less.com has all BOASTERS to sale now 4 $1.25/packege and $10 per PRIMAL! YU bye now! ~

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 11:08 AM
Yes, because I have to physically be in one place to use it's IP address. /facepalm

Dude...if you want to spoof 50,000 IP's, buy 50,000 fradulent cards on the black market to trade your IRL funds for digital currency, to try to game the system for as long as you can until those cards get cancelled for fraud, and then try to sell all your boosters on your individual accounts (a tedious process), then GO FOR IT.

Quit playing devils advocate when's its obviously a very stupid idea

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:09 AM
Yes, because I have to physically be in one place to use it's IP address. /facepalm

Try reading the whole post before replying, my answer to that was in what you quoted.

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 11:13 AM
Soooooo, even if this was possible, how does CZE making $400k (50,000 x ($4VIP +$4packs) a month equal a bad thing?

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:14 AM
There's absolutely no reaosn for anyone to want to do this!


And if someone does try to game the AH that way on a smaller scale, I'm sure they'll catch on to it and ban said person.

So either way you're screwed!

Why do companies sell gold to your WOW characters? There is obvious profit in scheming the digital world, namely because there is little overhead for virtual economies, it can all be controlled by a few motivated individuals.

In this simple scenario, if 50,000 accounts were controlled by 10 individuals as a full time job selling boosters for $1.25 per would net a simple profit of $400,000/year besides whatever else they can use the accounts for. That is $40,000 per individual for doing very little and producing nothing.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:19 AM
As soon as they transfer to another account, they're busted. As soon as that spam is reported, they're busted.

Do you play online games?

You know how many times a day in WOW you can get spammed for gold sellers if you do not have them filtered/blocked already?

Like I said, they do get caught, probably every day, but that doesn't stop them because there is profit to be made.

Clay_B
06-14-2013, 11:19 AM
Why do companies sell gold to your WOW characters? There is obvious profit in scheming the digital world, namely because there is little overhead for virtual economies, it can all be controlled by a few motivated individuals.

Yeah but I am pretty sure WoW gold sellers just steal and/or farm the gold they sell. I can't understand why anyone who had access to tens of thousands of CC numbers would bother buying $4 VIP membership to Hex when they could buy anything- I think there would be more effective ways to launder money/make a profit than such a low value trade.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:20 AM
Yeah but I am pretty sure WoW gold sellers just steal and/or farm the gold they sell. I can't understand why anyone who had access to tens of thousands of CC numbers would bother buying $4 VIP membership to Hex when they could buy anything- I think there would be more effective ways to launder money/make a profit than such a low value trade.

Yeah, well we haven't even touched on the account hacking that will occur. I don't even want to open that can at this point. Luckily, there are ways to retrieve those actions so that the original owner has some protections.

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:21 AM
Do you play online games?

You know how many times a day in WOW you can get spammed for gold sellers if you do not have them filtered/blocked already?

Like I said, they do get caught, probably every day, but that doesn't stop them because there is profit to be made.

The source of the gold in WoW is not a centralized source with full transaction logs. It's also done almost exclusively on compromised accounts.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:24 AM
The source of the gold in WoW is not a centralized source with full transaction logs. It's also done almost exclusively on compromised accounts.

I don't know or care how it is done... it IS done. How would this game differ?

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:26 AM
I don't know or care how it is done... it IS done. How would this game differ?

/facepalm

In the way I stated in the post you quoted...

EDIT: Moved to later post

Malicus
06-14-2013, 11:27 AM
Stolen credit cards would be pointless - even if your plan for some reason had to include Hex you could cash out much faster by just buying $100 worth of boosters per credit card.

The volume of account necessary to have any significant impact on the market assuming even a modest player base almost guarantees you get caught. It takes weeks just to cover your investment making this issue far riskier than the payout warrants.

From what I can imagine they will need to reward the first booster 7 days after signing up for VIP - this puts the minimum time to break even at 21 days.

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:28 AM
/facepalm

In the way I stated in the post you quoted...

I am confused. How did your quoted post explain how this game would combat the situation you describe any differently.

Malicus
06-14-2013, 11:37 AM
Yes, but that does limit you to 4 packs per month where the player base will want more that... its a demand thing.

This argument is actually one that I use to explain the low likelihood of this being an issue. It is simply not practical to have 10 accounts for every customer you want to service and that is assuming they want only 10 boosters, if they had a customer wanting 100 boosters they need 100 accounts. Unless the vast majority of accounts within Hex belong to these groups they would never be able to fill any significant demand.

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:37 AM
I am confused. How did your quoted post explain how this game would combat the situation you describe any differently.

Here, let me spell it out completely.

The reason they can get away with it in WoW is because there's a point of anonymity. The source of the gold. Because it's all in game, they can use compromised accounts to farm up the gold, send it through a bunch of different laundering methods, and get it untraceably to a buyer.

In this system, there is no anonymity. Every step in the path is logged and can be followed. Beyond that, the origination of the packs is from a VIP account, which can only be purchased directly from CZE. Every step of the way is logged, and there's no way to break that log. Also, because any compromised accounts would be recognized and corrected in less time than the turnaround on VIP (as opposed to the instant turnaround with WoW), it becomes impossible to make use of them, and that's assuming they don't require an authenticator, which was the very first stretch goal.

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 11:41 AM
Why do companies sell gold to your WOW characters? There is obvious profit in scheming the digital world, namely because there is little overhead for virtual economies, it can all be controlled by a few motivated individuals.

In this simple scenario, if 50,000 accounts were controlled by 10 individuals as a full time job selling boosters for $1.25 per would net a simple profit of $400,000/year besides whatever else they can use the accounts for. That is $40,000 per individual for doing very little and producing nothing.

It's not that simple, 4 people can't handle 50,000 accounts.

When people sell gold on wow it's from hacked accounts, one at a time.

Your scenario is arleady debunked BECAUSE you'd have to have 50,000 seperate cards, please read my post, if you can get 50,000 cards, you don't NEED to game a digital tcg, you already have money in your hands from the stolen/fraudulent cards...

Jbizzi
06-14-2013, 11:45 AM
Here, let me spell it out completely.

The reason they can get away with it in WoW is because there's a point of anonymity. The source of the gold. Because it's all in game, they can use compromised accounts to farm up the gold, send it through a bunch of different laundering methods, and get it untraceably to a buyer.

In this system, there is no anonymity. Every step in the path is logged and can be followed. Beyond that, the origination of the packs is from a VIP account, which can only be purchased directly from CZE. Every step of the way is logged, and there's no way to break that log. Also, because any compromised accounts would be recognized and corrected in less time than the turnaround on VIP (as opposed to the instant turnaround with WoW), it becomes impossible to make use of them, and that's assuming they don't require an authenticator, which was the very first stretch goal.

I am a pretty quick read, so your spelling must be off a bit.

Gold in WoW is tracked just like any other virtual good, i.e. booster packs. Every item has a digital signature and transactions are traced just as any others. There is no difference other than how you monitor them.

My question still stands, "How is this game any different?" There won't be compromised accounts? oh please.

Don't get me wrong, I hope, just as everyone else, that CZE has systems in place to safeguard against corruption but I am merely asking the questions so that they are aware of them. (I am not naive nor smart, I assume they know what occurs but discussion is discussion).

ZeroCool
06-14-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm fairly sure this is a non-issue.

jai151
06-14-2013, 11:49 AM
I am a pretty quick read, so your spelling must be off a bit.

Gold in WoW is tracked just like any other virtual good, i.e. booster packs. Every item has a digital signature and transactions are traced just as any others. There is no difference other than how you monitor them.

My question still stands, "How is this game any different?" There won't be compromised accounts? oh please.

Don't get me wrong, I hope, just as everyone else, that CZE has systems in place to safeguard against corruption but I am merely asking the questions so that they are aware of them. (I am not naive nor smart, I assume they know what occurs but discussion is discussion).

Gold can be laundered through the auction house, through vendors, through many other means. That breaks the signature. For example, I send 20 gold to my alt. They use it to buy an item off the auction house. They then sell that item for 20 gold. My alt now has the same 20 gold, but it never passed through my main character's hands.

The same cannot be done with packs.

And regardless of whether or not accounts get compromised (and yes, if they are walled behind an authenticator, they will not unless the game exe itself gets corrupted), the turnaround time on getting packs through VIP from a compromised account is longer than the time to recognize and disable that account.

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 12:02 PM
I'm thinking of laundering...
















my clothes.

badalchemist
06-14-2013, 12:07 PM
This is the stupidest hypothetical exploit I've ever seen. Can we lock the thread already?

Omniloathe
06-14-2013, 12:12 PM
No, just 50,000 credit card numbers, which are available on the black market en masse...

No one doing this would be using their OWN credit card numbers.

Yes, because when a criminal has 50k credit card numbers and relevant information, the way to profit from it is to set up 50k accounts on Hex, then reselling the VIP cards.

There is absolutely no other way to more efficiently benefit from 50k cc numbers...

This whole topic is just stupid. Do you people even think it though?

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 12:15 PM
I am a pretty quick read, so your spelling must be off a bit.

Gold in WoW is tracked just like any other virtual good, i.e. booster packs. Every item has a digital signature and transactions are traced just as any others. There is no difference other than how you monitor them.

My question still stands, "How is this game any different?" There won't be compromised accounts? oh please.

Don't get me wrong, I hope, just as everyone else, that CZE has systems in place to safeguard against corruption but I am merely asking the questions so that they are aware of them. (I am not naive nor smart, I assume they know what occurs but discussion is discussion).

Okay correct me if I'm wrong here guys, but none of us are stating that there won't be compromised accounts. We're just saying that in the scenario that you're stating, with that much volume of accounts, it's just impossible.

1 or 2 accounts doing this can go unnoticed for a long period of time I'm sure, but we're talking thousands here. And to make gaming this sytems WORTH it you would have to be working with a big volume of accounts and with the way this is setup, it's just not worth it.

In WoW a compromised account can be worth a hundred to a couple of a hundred bucks in gold/items, that's why the system works. You don't need thousands of compromised accounts to make it worth your time, you need just a handful if you're a small OP, a hundred or so for a big one. For 1 account on WoW that's worth at the least $100 bucks to a gold seller, You'll need to create 400 accounts on Hex...You tell me why that system works and this doesn't!

Account comprosmises happen all the time, no system is perfect from it. An authenticator helps A LOT but not everyone uses them which is why WoW still works that way, you just need to compromise 1 account for a good amount of pay

In Hex, you'll need to CREATE thousands of accounts, finds thousands of credit cards, spoof IP thousands of times to thousands of different locations to fly under the radar, then spends thousands of hours selling your VERY SMALL MARGIN cards packs to be able to make any kind of money.

Which is STILL TIED UP IN THE GAME.

People don't Hack WoW to get gold off people for their own in game use, they use it to GET PAID IN REAL LIFE. You don't pay a gold farmer gold to get more gold. You're paying them MONEY.

Who cares if someone games the iternal system, WOO HOO I'M A PLATINUM MILLIONAIRE!

Who cares?

Again, there's NO POINT to it. You'll never be able to see real dollars for your platinum because (AFAIK) you can't trade platinum, so there's no way to sell it for real life gain.


Edit: Good god I can't imagine the hardware required to even accomplish such a feat either, there's a guy on KJ that has to use 6 diferent very high end desktops to do his 40 log raids with all his characters, to do something like 50,000 accounts, if you could script them to auto run the AH, yo'ud need a few server blades I'm sure.

Not cheap. No ones going to invest in that kind of hardware just do this to a game.

For a WoW gold seller? 1 computer and something to drink.

You're talking $200,000 seed money just to get started on the VIP program...There's an easier way to make money from $200,000 than using it to game a digital TCG.

I mean if you're George Clooney and Cory from Hex is Al Pacino and you're doing a revenge job to try to get back at him...I mean seriously that's what you're trying to do here, this like some kind of ocean's movie

Your idea just isn't feasible in any sense at all...I think it's cool that you're worried about the security of the game and want CZE to succeed so you're bringing up what you think to be a gaping hole in their security, but it isn't.

You're either just not very well informed on how you would be able to accomplish this scam, or you're like...a mega troll...Yasi level.

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 12:32 PM
Honestly, it wouldn't be the VIP membership causing the problem, but there will be a black market for this game if it becomes popular enough.

Criminals will buy username+password lists, and then get player accounts (or just open accounts, since it's free-to-play.)

After opening these dummy accounts or stealing accounts, they will acquire a list of stolen CC numbers.

Then, set up websites to sell platinum at a "discount," and wait for orders.

Max out stolen credit cards for platinum on a dummy account/stolen account, then trade the platinum to "customers." Dump the account when it gets banned and move to another account.

If a website gets too much negativity, open a new one.

Pretty much business-as-usual for electronic crime. Criminals love any sort of currency that isn't regulated by a country's central bank. It's often what they use to launder stolen money.

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 12:41 PM
CZE hasn't said anything about being able to trade platinum. If you can't trade it, there's no reason anyone would ever scam the game for plat in a large volume where it would destroy the economy

stiii
06-14-2013, 12:43 PM
You can almost certainly sell plat to people the same way people in magic online sell tickets via paypal or similar.

Not that I think the VIP program is even slightly a problem.

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 12:44 PM
CZE hasn't said anything about being able to trade platinum. If you can't trade it, there's no reason anyone would ever scam the game for plat in a large volume where it would destroy the economy

Why would you NOT be able to send platinum to someone?

Also, you could always have people set up lots of obscure cards or equipment for ridiculous prices, and then buy that lot.

Mike411
06-14-2013, 12:52 PM
If this is removed or fixed, then people will just find something else to exploit. Such is the way of man I'm afraid.

Doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed/fixed. I think they should remove or change it after the kickstarter bonus is over (so kickstarters don't get angry). If they want to make tournaments and boosters cheaper, they can just lower the base price of them. It's not like people should be punished for buying more than 1 booster a week, right?

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 12:56 PM
I honestly don't think people getting VIP en masse is going to be an issue compared to just buying platinum with stolen CCs or accounts.

TZHX
06-14-2013, 01:36 PM
A stolen credit card will most likely get cancelled within a month. When that happens, the vendors of fraudulent transactions will be notified. To run this scheme for a year, would require re-sourcing the majority of those 50,000 stolen CC's each month, and you can bet your ass CZE will have some usage statistics that'll let them identify if one computer looks like it's controlling 12k accounts.

As many others have said, using stolen CCs for this just isn't going to be cost-effective. Those numbers cost money too, and to waste it for maybe $1.25 profit -- you'd probably be paying around that for each card number anyway. Really, it's a none-issue.

Hemotherapy
06-14-2013, 02:15 PM
You can almost certainly sell plat to people the same way people in magic online sell tickets via paypal or similar.

Not that I think the VIP program is even slightly a problem.

Assuming they have tickets that are tradable. Even so, that's not going to work very well to sell, selling draft tickets or tourney tickets only taps you into the PvP market, where if you sell plat, that's good for everyone since boosters can give you PvE cards...So you're still risking everything for that much a tinier reward because now you're selling a more niche product


Why would you NOT be able to send platinum to someone?

Also, you could always have people set up lots of obscure cards or equipment for ridiculous prices, and then buy that lot.

Uh..the obvious answer? To prevent exactly what we're talking about here!

I've played other games that have ingame currency you buy with RL money and in none of them does it allow you trade this currency.

If CZE allows you trade platinum this'll be a first for me. Because other than using the ability to trade platinum in game to sell to people there's not much else reason to allow it. If you wanted to add a buck or two to sweeten a trade deal, you can use paypal for it. Which is highly likely for them do to since Cory already said at the E3 interview they want to stay out of the secondary market

I'd rather see them not allow plat for trade which I'm assuming is what they're going to do since that what everyone does in this type of currency system.

stiii
06-14-2013, 02:20 PM
I guess it all depends if you can trade plat or not. I just assumed you could because mtgo allows you to.

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 02:22 PM
Assuming they have tickets that are tradable. Even so, that's not going to work very well to sell, selling draft tickets or tourney tickets only taps you into the PvP market, where if you sell plat, that's good for everyone since boosters can give you PvE cards...So you're still risking everything for that much a tinier reward because now you're selling a more niche product



Uh..the obvious answer? To prevent exactly what we're talking about here!

I've played other games that have ingame currency you buy with RL money and in none of them does it allow you trade this currency.

If CZE allows you trade platinum this'll be a first for me. Because other than using the ability to trade platinum in game to sell to people there's not much else reason to allow it. If you wanted to add a buck or two to sweeten a trade deal, you can use paypal for it. Which is highly likely for them do to since Cory already said at the E3 interview they want to stay out of the secondary market

I'd rather see them not allow plat for trade which I'm assuming is what they're going to do since that what everyone does in this type of currency system.

Okay, so trade packs? Use the AH to trade a cruddy card for stupid amounts of platinum?

There's no real difference.

Turtlewing
06-14-2013, 02:29 PM
I guess it all depends if you can trade plat or not. I just assumed you could because mtgo allows you to.

How exactly would platinum work as a currency if it can't be traded?

Mike411
06-14-2013, 02:31 PM
Hemo - yeah, you can trade platinum.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?p=206119#post206119

stiii
06-14-2013, 02:45 PM
How exactly would platinum work as a currency if it can't be traded?

Well in theory it would just be used to enter events and bound to accounts, it doesn't need to be tradeable. You'd end up with a D3 style AH where gold is used despite gold not really being used for anything.

This is rather moot as plat can be traded but as someone suggest it couldn't and I didn't know..

stiii
06-14-2013, 02:46 PM
It seems pretty likely everything will be valued in plat in the same way everything on magic online is valued in tickets. Even casual players who never enter events so never need ticket still use ticket to buy cards from other players.

Turtlewing
06-14-2013, 03:07 PM
Well in theory it would just be used to enter events and bound to accounts, it doesn't need to be tradeable. You'd end up with a D3 style AH where gold is used despite gold not really being used for anything.

This is rather moot as plat can be traded but as someone suggest it couldn't and I didn't know..

That would fail most common definitions of "currency"

stiii
06-14-2013, 03:21 PM
That would fail most common definitions of "currency"

Well yes buy why do they need a currency?

Mike411
06-14-2013, 03:33 PM
In case anyone is wondering why platinum needs to be tradable, it's because gold can't be used to enter drafts or buy new boosters, so it doesn't have value for everyone. So gold being the only currency and being undesirable for some, would be bad. The auction house needs a universally desired currency.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 03:36 PM
Soooooo, even if this was possible, how does CZE making $400k (50,000 x ($4VIP +$4packs) a month equal a bad thing?

Take a second to think about what you are saying. While yes they make 400k, at the same time they give out 800k in boosters. If nobody is buying boosters at retail price they are loosing out on a lot of money.

nearlysober
06-14-2013, 03:44 PM
Let me just say, fraud and scamming will be a risk in this game like it is in any game where items have "value." I do not think the scenario described is a serious threat.

Even if you could get your hands on 50,000 stolen credit cards for free... setup 50,000 accounts, claim 50,000 VIP boosters week 1, list 50,000 boosters... here's the problems:

- You need to wait for 50,000 boosters to sell.
- You probably just flooded the market and tanked the price.
- You're racing the clock with both CZE & CC company fraud programs

But let's just say... you sell all 50,000 packs at an astonishing $1.95 in and do it in 1 day.
You still have problems:

- You have 97,500 platinum, but probably no direct way to "cash out" (at least its not been confirmed yet)
- Transferring 97,500 platinum from 50,000 accounts to 1 account will probably raise some flags
- You need to sell this platinum outside the game before you're detected for fraudulent behavior
- You're a hacker, why would anyone buy Plat from you at full price?

But let's just say... you find a buyer willing to pay you $1 per platinum rather than going through CZE directly. You just made $97,500 profit for stealing 50,000 credit cards! You still got problems:

- Fraud from either CC or CZE has caught on by now, all 50,000 accounts disabled

But let's just say... you're not detected yet, and you can pull off the above miracle a 2nd time with your next VIP booster. Another $97,500 for you.

At 2 weeks though, the 50,000 stolen credit card leak would likely have been detected by the provider or they would've noticed the behavior. OR, CZE would have noticed it.

Now you're shut down, but you've now made $195,000 from 50,000 stolen credit cards. Or... $3.90 per stolen card.

Do you not think people with the ability to steal credit cards are not hoping to get a little more than $3.90 per stolen card?

Badmoonz
06-14-2013, 03:45 PM
So, CZE gets $200,000 and the community gets cheaper boosters because someone else is subsidizing them. What's the problem?

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 03:46 PM
@nearlysober
Ignore the VIP issue. Just think about them buying platinum and then selling it directly.


So, CZE gets $200,000 and the community gets cheaper boosters because someone else is subsidizing them. What's the problem?

Do you not see a problem when there's some unrelated 3rd party pocketing the difference between what CZE should make and what CZE is actually making?

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 03:46 PM
Let me just say, fraud and scamming will be a risk in this game like it is in any game where items have "value." I do not think the scenario described is a serious threat.

Even if you could get your hands on 50,000 stolen credit cards for free... setup 50,000 accounts, claim 50,000 VIP boosters week 1, list 50,000 boosters... here's the problems:

- You need to wait for 50,000 boosters to sell.
- You probably just flooded the market and tanked the price.

But let's just say... you sell all 50,000 packs at an astonishing $1.95 in and do it in 1 day.
You still have problems:

- You have 97,500 platinum, but probably no direct way to "cash out" (at least its not been confirmed yet)
- Transferring 97,500 platinum from 50,000 accounts to 1 account will probably raise some flags
- You need to sell this platinum outside the game before you're detected for fraudulent behavior
- You're a hacker, why would anyone buy Plat from you at full price?

But let's just say... you find a buyer willing to pay you $1 per platinum rather than going through CZE directly. You just made $97,500 profit for stealing 50,000 credit cards! You still got problems:

- Fraud from either CC or CZE has caught on by now, all 50,000 accounts disabled

But let's just say... you're not detected yet, and you can pull off the above miracle a 2nd time when you get your next weekly pack before fraud shuts you down. Another $97,500 for you.

You've now made $195,000 from 50,000 stolen credit cards. Or... $3.80 per card.

Do you not think people with the ability to steal credit cards are not hoping to get a little more than $3.80 per stolen card? It'd be more valuable to just sell 50,000 credit card numbers to someone for $4 per card number.

~ Translation Partaaay Whooo ~

ゲーム内のアイテムは有害な詐欺の可能性が最も高い値です。深刻な脅威のシナリオとは思わない 。50000 以上の無料アカウント クレジット カード 50 50 ブースター 1 000 000 の最初の週を盗まれた VIP 50000 ブースターを設定。ここでの問題は: 最大 50000 ブースター ボリューム販売を待ちます。-おそらく.$ 1.95 コイン パック コスト、偉大な価格 50000 エントリのみクラッシュあなた。あなたはまだ問題がある: おそらくセット、50 k プラチナ プラチナ Plat 97、完全 97,500 で現金には、少なくとも理由をおそらく見つけることゲーム ゲーム直接悪いプラチナ商人アカウント 500 のフラグが設定されたハッカー?ただし、ない盗まれた $ 50 の収入 per. CZE 1 000 97,500 アクセス プラチナ。バイヤーズ クレジット供与についてしようとして直接支払いカードを渡すだけ !シャット ダウンの問題: 奇跡はまだ 50,000 CC キャッチ発見を得る。また、前に、調整時間は最近: CZE アカウントまたは誤用後 2 つ !それはあなたのため違う $ 97,500。盗まれたクレジット カードのあなたと 50 000 $ 195,000。または 3.80 1 枚のカード。3.80 盗まれたクレジット カード クレジット カードの盗難で盗まれたあなたの運ですか?50000 クレジット カード番号はちょうど販売のための $ 4 を超えています
back into English
In-game items is harmful scams most likely value. Don't think a serious threat scenario. Over 50,000 free account credit card 50 50 booster 1 000 stolen 000 first week VIP 50,000 booster set. The issue here is: wait for the maximum 50,000 booster volume sales. -Probably a pack cost Inn, great. $ 1.95 Ko price 50,000 entries only crush you. You still have a problem: probably set the reason to find probably at least to cash Platinum Platinum Plat 97, completely 97500 50 k direct game bad Platinum Merchant account 500 flagged hackers? However, it's not $ 50 stolen income per. CZE 1 000 97500 access Platinum. Buyer's credit for trying, just pass the direct payment card! Shutdown problem: miracles still get 50000 CC catch discovery. Also, before you adjust time recently: CZE accounts or misuse after two! It's different for you $ 97500. Your credit card is stolen and 50 000 $ 195000. Or 3.80 one card. 3.80 Is stolen stolen credit cards credit card theft in your luck? 50,000 Credit card numbers exceeds the $ 4 for sale just

nearlysober
06-14-2013, 03:51 PM
That pretty much sums it up yup

Mike411
06-14-2013, 03:52 PM
So, CZE gets $200,000 and the community gets cheaper boosters because someone else is subsidizing them. What's the problem?

The problem would be, virtually no one would be using the in-game store to buy from CZE at their normal price of $2, so they are cutting their booster profits in half. If CZE's economic model was designed for virtually all packs to be sold at $1, they would just sell them in an unlimited quantity for $1.

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 04:04 PM
Non-issue.

For one, the maximum number of exploiter accounts will only be able to be a fraction of active accounts or it will be VERY obvious and stopped before the account gets to make a profit (It will take at least 3 weeks, definitely 4 early to make a profit in VIP). There will be 20,000 accounts or so (probably less) when the game goes live. 50,000 fraudulent VIPs is a laughable number to throw around. For this to be not immediately noticeable there would have to be well over half a million VIPs,

Secondly if you can do this there are other ways to put your evil powers to use that will make far more profit for far less work. Less than a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of one percent of the population of the world will care about Hex.

Thirdly, to make a profit they need to be able to sell the booster on the secondary market. Then transfer the plat to a "bank". Then sell the plat for cash. So it will likely be unprofitable unto Set 2 is available, and even then they are having to trade under value twice. It just isn't profitable.

The real money makers will be just like those that are the scourge of WoW, the account stealers. Grab an account, liquidate its assets (so much more profitable in a game where nothing is bound) and profit way more than $4. Which is why people need to know that the "services" that will be offered to level your characters, or grind gear for you from dungeons or sell plat to you are to be avoided as much for your own safety as for the fact that it is fraud.

The solution of binding the booster is TERRIBLE. Far worse than the potential risk. It means a person can't grab one draft a month by selling the extra booster. Or they can't fund 3-4 extra drafts if they get a Primal and all they want to do is draft. Plus they can always crack the packs and sell. Bind the cards from the boosters as well? So how does that affect other people when they draft that pack? Are they unable to pick cards or do they get one they cannot sell or trade afterwards? People stuck with masses of excess commons they can't give away or craft (because that would profit from the card and we can't have that). An awful non-solution that causes far more issues than the non-issue that it cannot solve.

Stok3d
06-14-2013, 04:04 PM
yes. Make them soulbound to an account. The number of ppl who devise ways to abuse this will be limited... but at least now they can't flood the market with cheap packs.

This is a very smart move to do.

@Arbiter: it's far from a potential "non-issue". This solution curbs abuse to the level of killing the economy.

Those that are to get their accounts stolen will primarily deserve it. These will be the guys who download "Bots" that are actually key loggers and get their accounts stolen. These ppl will have no one to blame but themselves.

The VIP program is intended to benefit the particular user... not be a bank account for resell. Sorry, your example states the exact reasons they should be BoP. The packs are soulbound and obviously the cards themselves are not.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 04:12 PM
I edited this into my first post, i ll throw it here so people who dont go back can see

------------------------Hypothetical Example Situation------------------------
I am a wealthy Chinese man/woman (i say Chinese because its the hardest to actually prosecute anybody running anything from china), i have been in the digital 3rd market trading business for years, i have my own office area that i run my own business out of. I can buy 50,000 (this number doesnt matter, it could be 1 hundred - 1 million) prepaid credit cards ((irl i work at a gas station, i sell a ton of these every day, its not illegal to do so, you can buy as many as you want)). I link each of these to a hex account, maybe i scripted to make 50k hex accounts, maybe i have employees, it doesn't matter how i got it done, i have also spoofed the IPs. I buy a VIP account for each of these, and on my website "www.buyhexcards.com" i sell hex boosters for lets say, $1.25 each and primal's for more (lets say the market AH value is $1.40). I can launder packs pretty easily through the AH if i need to without losing much profit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what are the flaws and risks i am actually taking in this hypothetical scenario.

-I am not using stolen credit cards, they are 100% legit and legal
-The account that makes the trade could be banned in a sting situation and there could be some loss, but on a massive scale it wouldn't equate to much.
-Accounts "activity" isnt really a strong indicator of if an account is being malicious or not, and could easily be refuted in emails by people simply sending a ticket to support and claiming to be a unique different person.
-The AH market value could drop to below 1$ which would destroy any chance at profits.
-They are selling the packs right off the website for real currency, so they are NOT locked into platinum.
-A few years down the line, there may be MILLIONS of players on hex, making this much harder to detect as there will be many accounts with little activity as well.

Some people are asking What is the problem with this anyway? Crypto is making money, people are getting boosters for less! The answer to this is, Crypto is actually losing 50% of what they would make on retail boosters by this happening. It devalues their game and screws the economy.

Anyway, in closing, there are plenty of people in this thread saying the efforts wouldn't be worth it, but if you do the math, it could potentially be tens of thousands of dollars profits give or take depending on how big you go.

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:14 PM
Sigh...

1. Bind the boosters to account but not the cards derived from boosters
2. Finished

While everyone debates the possibility of 1 or 4 guys having 50,000 accounts you ignore the very obvious problem of 50,000 people with one account. What you say? Why is that a problem? Apparently 1 guy with 50,000 account ruins the economy but 50,000 people with 1 account won't? It will have the same negative impact. ( Or 100 people with 5 accounts, whatever numbers you want.. I don't really care)

You get a special deal with the VIP, you get a pack at 1/2 off that you can open or use to draft. What a sweet deal 50% off! Somehow the argument that everyone is not going to use the VIP program if this is the case (even though the cards are still tradeable and the packs still useable in draft) so THEREFORE CZE would be giving up this holy grail of "guaranteed" income is somewhat ridiculous to me. A great deal is a great deal and few people who aren't solely thinking about selling packs are going to pass up a deal to expand their card catalog or draft cheaper.

The other sometime complaint is that CZE said they wouldn't get involved in the "secondary market." Well it seems to me the VIP program is in fact the primary market and if they decide to offer a special deal that people can or cannot choose to use that will have no effect on the secondary market of cards or non-VIP packs.

Finally, it seems that there has been some "promise" from CZE about the VIP program. Well I haven't seen hide nor tail of this promise or anything beyond the gold fish tool, tournament, and cheap packs. While people can claim the lack of a statement regarding account bind packs through VIP is proof that they are not going to do that and are bound to that "promise." I don't see it. Lack of proof is not in itself proof of the opposite nor is it a promise or commitment.

Anyways I got stuff to do.

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:18 PM
Others I forgot: The "Dude I know exactly how the economy is going to work already and this, I GUARANTEE YOU, will not be an issue. There won't be enough packs coming out of this to affect the economy."

Well I am glad you are so sure. I am not and even if I were I don't see the logic in letting people abuse the system at the companies loss outside of the big picture anyways?

And lastly the "People will find ways to abuse the system so why bother fixing this potential problem?".... Does that really need a response?

<3 you all

stiii
06-14-2013, 04:18 PM
While I don't think VIP will flood the market or be a problem I also see no reason why the VIP packs shouldn't be account bound. there doesn't seem to be any good reason for trading off your VIP packs.

Mike411
06-14-2013, 04:19 PM
Binding boosters does get a bit messy, but it's better than nothing.

But the ideal solution IMO is to get rid of VIP (after kickstarter bonus is over). VIP essentially punishes those who want to buy more than 1 booster per week. If you want to make things cheaper for everyone, lower the base price instead. Now you won't have to devote resources into trying to track and punish people for abusing VIP. Easy.

stiii
06-14-2013, 04:23 PM
I edited this into my first post, i ll throw it here so people who dont go back can see

------------------------Hypothetical Example Situation------------------------
I am a wealthy Chinese man/woman (i say Chinese because its the hardest to actually prosecute anybody running anything from china), i have been in the digital 3rd market trading business for years, i have my own office area that i run my own business out of. I can buy 50,000 (this number doesnt matter, it could be 1 hundred - 1 million) prepaid credit cards ((irl i work at a gas station, i sell a ton of these every day, its not illegal to do so, you can buy as many as you want)). I link each of these to a hex account, maybe i scripted to make 50k hex accounts, maybe i have employees, it doesn't matter how i got it done, i have also spoofed the IPs. I buy a VIP account for each of these, and on my website "www.buyhexcards.com" i sell hex boosters for lets say, $1.25 each and primal's for more (lets say the market AH value is $1.40). I can launder packs pretty easily through the AH if i need to without losing much profit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what are the flaws and risks i am actually taking in this hypothetical scenario.

-I am not using stolen credit cards, they are 100% legit and legal
-The account that makes the trade could be banned in a sting situation and there could be some loss, but on a massive scale it wouldn't equate to much.
-Accounts "activity" isnt really a strong indicator of if an account is being malicious or not, and could easily be refuted in emails by people simply sending a ticket to support and claiming to be a unique different person.
-The AH market value could drop to below 1$ which would destroy any chance at profits.
-They are selling the packs right off the website for real currency, so they are NOT locked into platinum.
-A few years down the line, there may be MILLIONS of players on hex, making this much harder to detect as there will be many accounts with little activity as well.

Some people are asking What is the problem with this anyway? Crypto is making money, people are getting boosters for less! The answer to this is, Crypto is actually losing 50% of what they would make on retail boosters by this happening. It devalues their game and screws the economy.

Anyway, in closing, there are plenty of people in this thread saying the efforts wouldn't be worth it, but if you do the math, it could potentially be tens of thousands of dollars profits give or take depending on how big you go.

Why is this guy better off using the VIP program than some other game's system? Buying modo tics or EVE plex then reselling those.

He then doesn't need all the extra steps of buying VIP, then selling the packs for plat. He might make more profit by selling Hex packs for a bit more than he paid but he also has to pay someone to run all of this.

stiii
06-14-2013, 04:27 PM
Others I forgot: The "Dude I know exactly how the economy is going to work already and this, I GUARANTEE YOU, will not be an issue. There won't be enough packs coming out of this to affect the economy."

Well I am glad you are so sure. I am not and even if I were I don't see the logic in letting people abuse the system at the companies loss outside of the big picture anyways?

And lastly the "People will find ways to abuse the system so why bother fixing this potential problem?".... Does that really need a response?

<3 you all

As opposed to the opposite position of Dude I know exactly how the economy is going to work already so we should prevent people from doing X because it will harm it. There are lots of thing people could do that might be bad, trying to prevent all of them is impossible why is this issue so likely to happen?

keroko
06-14-2013, 04:28 PM
VIP is restricted in number normally or by some kind of conditions - doesn't seem unreasonable that the booster pack might come with different art to mark it from the bajillion you might have (hey, did I get my VIP one this month ticket avoidance).

its reasonable too that these discount packs end up locked as they were cheaper. its also an option for CZE to /shrug and let you sell that pack on ebay then private trade it should you choose.

I for one know nothing about acceptable use of product for resale in general, let alone with VIP. the trade bots in mtgo are handy, as are the mtgotraders and a bunch more that sell for real currency.

If the ah is compelling, people will keep their money in game. i dunno. it'll be a really interesting part of seeing an mmo and a tcg conjoined.

if folk from wherever want to get on and earn cards by beating folk in pvp/e/other, then turn around and sell their winnings however so be it imo.

ideally that wouldn't be in a sweat shop, but if its buying dinner soemwhere and done through legal / approved channels then its just more goods on market that would find itself there otherwise.

can you private player-to-player trade in hex? I've just assumed that you'll be able to. or are trades exclusively through the ah?

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:29 PM
As opposed to the opposite position of Dude I know exactly how the economy is going to work already so we should prevent people from doing X because it will harm it. There are lots of thing people could do that might be bad, trying to prevent all of them is impossible why is this issue so likely to happen?

I like how you combined both of those into one argument by saying the "There are so many problems lets not try to fix them all." A variant of argument 2 from the quote with the classic "You don't know how the economy is going to work (implication is that you do?)" ....

You are right CZE shouldn't try to forsee potential problems and stop them before they happen. Everyone please move along.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 04:29 PM
Why is this guy better off using the VIP program than some other game's system? Buying modo tics or EVE plex then reselling those.

He then doesn't need all the extra steps of buying VIP, then selling the packs for plat. He might make more profit by selling Hex packs for a bit more than he paid but he also has to pay someone to run all of this.

Maybe he already does, maybe he already has the 50k credit cards from already doing that with so many other games. Variety never hurts a business. Again, i work in a gas station, so i guess it would be the same reason we sell pepsi when 80% of the time people buy coke :D

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 04:31 PM
yes. Make them soulbound to an account. The number of ppl who devise ways to abuse this will be limited... but at least now they can't flood the market with cheap packs.

This is a very smart move to do.

@Arbiter: it's far from a potential "non-issue". This solution curbs abuse to the level of killing the economy.

Those that are to get their accounts stolen will primarily deserve it. These will be the guys who download "Bots" that are actually key loggers and get their accounts stolen. These ppl will have no one to blame but themselves.

So you are happy and prefer the economy to be destroyed this way? Whether they deserve it or not isn't the point, the fact that it affects the economy for everyone was.


The VIP program is intended to benefit the particular user... not be a bank account for resell. Sorry, your example states the exact reasons they should be BoP. The packs are soulbound and obviously the cards themselves are not.

There is a card market as well. You are happy for that to be flooded instead? If there is fraudulent action on the VIP accounts enough to kill the pack market it will kill the card market. The secondary card market is actually far more important, there will be many more cards than boosters sold.

It is a non issue because if it could have that much of an impact the only recourse would be to stop the VIP program. It just isn't worth it.

Punishing EVERYONE because people will commit fraud is bad business sense. Were they to decide to do this, I'd be pretty quick to abandon the game because it shows very poor business judgement and is actually breaking their promise of not interfering in the secondary market. There best recourse is to have a zero tolerance policy and actively search out scammers and fraudsters and deal with them.

Mike411
06-14-2013, 04:33 PM
There are lots of thing people could do that might be bad, trying to prevent all of them is impossible

What? Of course you can and should try to prevent all exploits. Are you telling me you don't download patches to Windows (or whatever you use) because there are lots of things people could exploit?

And outside of bots farming stuff and multiple VIP, what else are the 'lots of things' that you're so confident about?

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:36 PM
Thank you for bringing up one of the arguments I forgot about Arbiter... The "Well if it could harms packs it will harm the card market too so they should either ditch the VIP or not do anything."

Honestly I would be fine if they ditched the VIP but as it is a feature they have already release and it serves the purpose of helping people make that first initial purchase in a game (always the hardest one) I am okay with it.

The assumption that myself and other arguing for this change are working under (and granted it is an assumption) is that the opened cards from a pack will be worth considerably less than the packs themselves. I(we) believe this to be true regardless of whether there is a VIP program or not. While exact values are stupid the assumption is that the cards from a pack will be worth somewhere much closer to 1 dollar than 2 dollars. If this is the case then VIPing packs just to open them for cards will be a poor business and there will be little to no money to make off it.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 04:38 PM
Punishing EVERYONE because people will commit fraud is bad business sense. Were they to decide to do this, I'd be pretty quick to abandon the game because it shows very poor business judgement and is actually breaking their promise of not interfering in the secondary market. There best recourse is to have a zero tolerance policy and actively search out scammers and fraudsters and deal with them.

When you think of how "brutal" the punishment of a system that isnt even in place yet, its miniscule to your average VIP player. The packs can still be used for draft, you can still sell the cards inside the packs, you just cant make a profit out of it and it restricts a rather unusual trade currency of boosters for cards/items. All while preventing a huge crush on the economy.

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 04:42 PM
Take a second to think about what you are saying. While yes they make 400k, at the same time they give out 800k in boosters. If nobody is buying boosters at retail price they are loosing out on a lot of money.

Which they would be giving out for the exact same price to anybody else.

I mean, seriously? That line of thinking is just dumb. Does nobody understand how a free trade market works? CZE doesn't lose ANYTHING in this hypothetical scenario. You don't like it? Ok. Buy your packs from somebody else besides the Walmart of Hex packs. And then go take an economics class or something. Jeez!

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:44 PM
Which they would be giving out for the exact same price to anybody else.

I mean, seriously? That line of thinking is just dumb. Does nobody understand how a free trade market works? CZE doesn't lose ANYTHING in this hypothetical scenario. You don't like it? Ok. Buy your packs from somebody else besides the Walmart of Hex packs. And then go take an economics class or something. Jeez!

Perhaps this guy is the one that needs to take an economics class

Avaian
06-14-2013, 04:46 PM
This hurts the players who wish to profit from the game, or sustain their game play through the market.

Most of this thread seems to be bouncing back and forth between the same two topics.

As mentioned before CZE already has plans to prevent this as much as they can. The VIP program is intended to help people enjoy the game, people with little money can spend $4 on the game and still enjoy it.

If the pack prices drop, yes it will affect the rest of the market. The best way to alleviate this is to bring in more players :).

This thread is depressing. In before someone finds fault with what I said, cause I am positive that the cow is black with white spots, or was it white with black spots.

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 04:51 PM
Perhaps this guy is the one that needs to take an economics class

Been there, done that.

Here's a question, how is this scenario any different than a retailer buying goods from a company and then selling them at a higher price for profit?

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 04:56 PM
The VIP program is intended to help people enjoy the game, people with little money can spend $4 on the game and still enjoy it.

Actually, the VIP program is a cash cow for CZE. People are spending the exact same price for packs since it only allows 1 pack per week to be bought for $1. So it's $8 either way, but with the VIP program there's a chance that someone doesn't buy a pack one week and boom! Instant $1 profit for nothing.

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:57 PM
Been there, done that.

Here's a question, how is this scenario any different than a retailer buying goods from a company and then selling them at a higher price for profit?


It is not and that is the point. If you can't transpose the fact that he is talking about opportunity cost of selling packs for $1 versus selling them for $2 when he is talking about loss... Well, I guess my point is you shouldn't be calling people dumb

dogmod
06-14-2013, 04:58 PM
Actually, the VIP program is a cash cow for CZE. People are spending the exact same price for packs since it only allows 1 pack per week to be bought for $1. So it's $8 either way, but with the VIP program there's a chance that someone doesn't buy a pack one week and boom! Instant $1 profit for nothing.

sigh... just sigh..

Mike411
06-14-2013, 05:07 PM
sigh... just sigh..

You know you love getting involved in another VIP topic. Don't let this one die this time :p

The scenario is different IMO because if CZE were the company, they would consider the retailer as 'one person' therefore the retailer would be stuck with one pack a week at the wholesale price. Their only option to make a decent profit would be to exploit the system and risk getting blacklisted by the company. (The possibility of them evading detection is the problem here)

Tyrfang
06-14-2013, 05:09 PM
Actually, the VIP program is a cash cow for CZE. People are spending the exact same price for packs since it only allows 1 pack per week to be bought for $1. So it's $8 either way, but with the VIP program there's a chance that someone doesn't buy a pack one week and boom! Instant $1 profit for nothing.

VIP gives you 1 pack a week.

Can't tell if you're serious or not.

Ju66ernaut
06-14-2013, 05:15 PM
Old news, CZ has counter measures that I'm sure will not be shared with the public.
Please close the thread
kthxbai.

Hollywood
06-14-2013, 05:17 PM
It is not and that is the point. If you can't transpose the fact that he is talking about opportunity cost of selling packs for $1 versus selling them for $2 when he is talking about loss... Well, I guess my point is you shouldn't be calling people dumb

Well, I never actually called anyone dumb. Just the ideas and thought processes leading to some of the completely ludacris and absurd statements being made on this thread. Now, if you'd like to refute my statements with, I don't know, an actual, cohesive argument as opposed to, "sigh, just sigh", I'd be more than happy to hear it. Til then, you have no leg to stand on kid.

stiii
06-14-2013, 05:17 PM
I like how you combined both of those into one argument by saying the "There are so many problems lets not try to fix them all." A variant of argument 2 from the quote with the classic "You don't know how the economy is going to work (implication is that you do?)" ....

You are right CZE shouldn't try to forsee potential problems and stop them before they happen. Everyone please move along.

You could apply this logic to pretty much anything.

The issue is people aren't really explaining how in the real world anyone could abuse this system enough for it to be a problem. So without any good reason this is just another in a huge list of minor problems that maybe in theory could exist. At which point you are better of waiting and seeing if there is an issue rather than changing lots of little things.

You say other people don't know how the economy will work that is true. But what is also true is you don't know either, so why should they change things?

When the bar for something being a problem is anyone is worried about it there are too many problems to fix them all.

stiii
06-14-2013, 05:21 PM
What? Of course you can and should try to prevent all exploits. Are you telling me you don't download patches to Windows (or whatever you use) because there are lots of things people could exploit?

And outside of bots farming stuff and multiple VIP, what else are the 'lots of things' that you're so confident about?

I'm more arguing that this thing can't really be exploited in the first place. So the lots of things just includes anything that anyone is worried about. And that is a lot of things.

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 05:22 PM
While I don't think VIP will flood the market or be a problem I also see no reason why the VIP packs shouldn't be account bound. there doesn't seem to be any good reason for trading off your VIP packs.

1) If I have a VIP to go toward drafting and I get a primal I want to sell it so I can draft some more. I don't want to have to open it and sell cards individually.

2) If someone wants their VIP to be one draft a month, where the entry is paid for by one of the boosters what is the issue with that.

3) What if someone wants to try Keep Defense and put a booster a week from their VIP in the kitty? Or the Guildmaster who wants some cheap boosters to use for prizes in an in-guild tournament. You are preventing all the altruistic, community building uses of VIP. It is a great for people that like to do things like that to build the communities that they enjoy playing in to have some source of slightly cheaper product. Everyone benefits.

4) The general expectancy on prizes is 12 boosters, for a collective eight ticket cost (and note, there will be significant constructed play where boosters are not required). These boosters come in at significantly less than the price of VIP. Are they also to be affected? Prize payouts are actually likely to have far more of an effect on booster prices than VIP. There will be many more 8 player tournaments run in a week than VIPs.

5) The secondary card market is also based upon booster cost. Any fraud on a level that would collapse the pack economy will collapse the card economy. Therefore any solution has to address both the same way. And binding cards would not work.

Finally if someone isn't interested in drafting but gets VIP to gain some platinum to spend on the parts of the game they are interested in (a PVE player who wants some trade options to get needed PVP cards, or a constructed player who has finished the deck that he wants to make for the current set and wants to set aside some of his VIP rewards to go towards the next deck) what is the issue with that? Why propose a solution for something that is only a problem in theory (and is massively overstated), that has no impact on the people proposing it but a massively negative impact on others.

If the VIP is open to fraud and abuse, shut it down. I honestly don't think it will be, and wonder how some other people can be so certain it will. Frankly the game will exceed my expectations if people can run 50000 VIPs without it being blatently obvious.

At the start it will not be an issue (the boosters in the game are cheaper than $1 each, and the player pool will be low). The program can be phased out if it is problematic, or changed to giving free entry to one draft and one constructed tournament a month for $4. Switching to a draft is a far more elegant way of locking the boosters down, it avoids all of those issues, requires the bonus to be actively used and helps keep the queues flowing. Locking the boosters to account puts additional coding and data overheads in the game (remember they are not meant to be that way, you are asking for a change), so it would need to be implemented and would thus take game development time to test and put in, but they already have or are planning the capability for draft tokens as they are in the kickstarter. But, again, it does not need to be locked down at the start. CZE and the community have several months to see what impact the VIP program has on the game.

Ju66ernaut
06-14-2013, 05:25 PM
You could also go to Taco Bell 50,000 times, order one $1 taco each time, then sneakily take two packets of taco sauce rather than one. After consuming 50,000 tacos you could empty the extra 50,000 sauce packets into a 55gal drum and sell it for $200.

Congratulations!! You just made......wait....um....-$49,800....

Well, at least you got tacos...

Shivdaddy
06-14-2013, 05:28 PM
For the love of god, stop with these threads every 2 days. Crypto has this taken care of.

Mokog
06-14-2013, 05:32 PM
There is very little difference between 1 user doing this and 50k different users selling their VIP boosters. The big difference is the distribution of profits. CZE will make their money on new players joining the game and the hasty players.

The KS folks can trade away all of their product on launch if they want. If the scheme was truly viable then why don't we have 200,000 accounts signed up at guild leader tier? Kick Starter boosters at that tier are the cheapest at < $1 per booster. The big reason is because the value of the boosters when they hit the market will drop below $1 for existing boosters. Drafts will drive the price down further in the short run as the early adopters are more skilled and knowledgeable on how to maximize the draft system. As a scheme its profits are too long term and volatile. You will have a better chance at farming cards for gold and selling the gold for money. CZE will watch for that.

To Jax's point CZE is wary about linked accounts and the VIP program because the more you can stack discounted boosters onto a single account the more like a distributer the account becomes. The business practice is common, buy low and sell high. CZE would undercut profits if they enabled the behavior. All they have to do is keep the 1 CC to 1 VIP rule and logistics costs + transaction fees will prevent most attempts at exploiting. Anything that pushes the economy of scale on the process will be located by the bots and addressed.

The company is aware and that is why this thread was buried last time.

stiii
06-14-2013, 05:34 PM
For the love of god, stop with these threads every 2 days. Crypto has this taken care of.

So what are they doing about this then?

Ju66ernaut
06-14-2013, 06:06 PM
So what are they doing about this then?

It's a secret Stiii. They say they have measures in place, I'm going to believe them. If they told the world how they planned to prevent this from happening, the world would have 4 months to perfect their plan to game the system. Can we move on now?

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 06:12 PM
This thread has done more laps than a stripper at a bachelor party...

I am now locking this thread

yovalord
06-14-2013, 06:21 PM
Old news, CZ has counter measures that I'm sure will not be shared with the public.
Please close the thread
kthxbai.

I know it probably has been said somewhere, but where? State your source, and dont be an obnoxious snob and request the thread be closed. You close threads for malicious or toxic threads, this is a discussion that has gone 12 pages in under 10 hours. Ban ju66ernaut please.
kthxbai.

Avaian
06-14-2013, 06:22 PM
So what are they doing about this then?

Do you inform people how you protect your sensitive information?

stiii
06-14-2013, 06:24 PM
Do you inform people how you protect your sensitive information?

I use AVG. So yes.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 06:25 PM
So what are they doing about this then?

~ Preventing it ~

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 06:26 PM
I use AVG. So yes.

~ Yours is only average? Mine is so much better... ~

ZaCrew
06-14-2013, 06:28 PM
If somebody has access to 50,000 creditcard numbers they are not going to be wasting their time scheming ways to make money on hex.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 06:30 PM
If somebody has access to 50,000 creditcard numbers they are not going to be wasting their time scheming ways to make money on hex.

~ Because we have done all the scheming for them ~

yovalord
06-14-2013, 06:32 PM
1) If I have a VIP to go toward drafting and I get a primal I want to sell it so I can draft some more. I don't want to have to open it and sell cards individually.

2) If someone wants their VIP to be one draft a month, where the entry is paid for by one of the boosters what is the issue with that.

3) What if someone wants to try Keep Defense and put a booster a week from their VIP in the kitty? Or the Guildmaster who wants some cheap boosters to use for prizes in an in-guild tournament. You are preventing all the altruistic, community building uses of VIP. It is a great for people that like to do things like that to build the communities that they enjoy playing in to have some source of slightly cheaper product. Everyone benefits.

4) The general expectancy on prizes is 12 boosters, for a collective eight ticket cost (and note, there will be significant constructed play where boosters are not required). These boosters come in at significantly less than the price of VIP. Are they also to be affected? Prize payouts are actually likely to have far more of an effect on booster prices than VIP. There will be many more 8 player tournaments run in a week than VIPs.

5) The secondary card market is also based upon booster cost. Any fraud on a level that would collapse the pack economy will collapse the card economy. Therefore any solution has to address both the same way. And binding cards would not work.


1.Im all for primals being sellable through the VIP, not much of a reliable way to exploit this.

2. The issue is that its not really what the VIP is intended for. While i don't think its a negative thing (in fact its great), but you should not be relying on your FEW cheap boosters to be covering these expenses. Again, it hurts the economy a lot, while only effecting a very frugal few.

3. Honestly the amount of boosters you are getting from the VIP is so miniscule that you SHOULD have other boosters lying around if you want to do this kind of thing.

4. More boosters are being consumed than being given out. If a 3rd party dealer is good enough to win a tournament and wants to sell his prize, so be it. He EARNED them.

5. Binding VIP boosters would eliminate the problem topic on hand.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 06:33 PM
If somebody has access to 50,000 creditcard numbers they are not going to be wasting their time scheming ways to make money on hex.

If they are legit credit cards that are theres (like i explained in the OP) why not? Theres money to be made.

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 06:51 PM
If they are legit credit cards that are theres (like i explained in the OP) why not? Theres money to be made.

Because a guy with $200,000 is going to design scripts to get legitimately get 50,000 methods of payments. Then go the illegal route and generate 50,000 illegal VIP accounts. He hopes they are not noticed amongst the legitimate $20,000 VIP accounts for an entire months. Design scripts to trade away boosters for platinum (less than $2 worth because there is no way a booster will ever sell at tat) and trade platinum to accounts that sell, and hope this is not noticed. Sell platinum for real money, and at a discount because there are a significant number of people who don't do business with platinum sellers, whether for ethical or self preservation reasons. So the profit will be somewhat less than $100,000. And it won't be feasible to even make a profit selling boosters until the initial glut of set one boosters is gone.

Sorry, but your scenario is ludicrous.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 07:01 PM
Because a guy with $200,000 is going to design scripts to get legitimately get 50,000 methods of payments. Then go the illegal route and generate 50,000 illegal VIP accounts. He hopes they are not noticed amongst the legitimate $20,000 VIP accounts for an entire months. Design scripts to trade away boosters for platinum (less than $2 worth because there is no way a booster will ever sell at tat) and trade platinum to accounts that sell, and hope this is not noticed. Sell platinum for real money, and at a discount because there are a significant number of people who don't do business with platinum sellers, whether for ethical or self preservation reasons. So the profit will be somewhat less than $100,000. And it won't be feasible to even make a profit selling boosters until the initial glut of set one boosters is gone.

Sorry, but your scenario is ludicrous.

Thing is it isnt a lose 1 lose all situation. Its very likely he will lose a few accounts, but he will be making far more than he loses. This happens constantly in WoW. And also, i never implied he was trading for plat, in my scenario he sells them right off his website for $.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 07:08 PM
Thing is it isnt a lose 1 lose all situation. Its very likely he will lose a few accounts, but he will be making far more than he loses. This happens constantly in WoW. And also, i never implied he was trading for plat, in my scenario he sells them right off his website for $.

~ Your logic validates an IQ equivalent to the cost of a booster pack... .89 on the low end up to a 2 on the high end ~

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 07:24 PM
2. The issue is that its not really what the VIP is intended for. While i don't think its a negative thing (in fact its great), but you should not be relying on your FEW cheap boosters to be covering these expenses. Again, it hurts the economy a lot, while only effecting a very frugal few.

Who are you to say how boosters must be used. The VIP is there to give a few boosters a month to a person. It is not there to say they must be spent in Yovalord's approved fashion.


3. Honestly the amount of boosters you are getting from the VIP is so miniscule that you SHOULD have other boosters lying around if you want to do this kind of thing.

If I can have fun setting up my keep defense and encourage people to play by putting a booster in, why is that more invalid a use of VIP than cracking it open or using it for draft entry. I'll be fine, with a free draft a week, I'd be disappointed in my play if I couldn't earn a booster a week from it. Hopefully there will be plenty of non-KS players though. And VIP at least gives them something for supporting the game. Seems selfish to me for people who got 100s of boosters for under a dollar to use however they like to deny others who get a miniscule amount in comparison from the same privilege. Would you scream if the KS boosters were made BoA to preserver market value?


4. More boosters are being consumed than being given out. If a 3rd party dealer is good enough to win a tournament and wants to sell his prize, so be it. He EARNED them.

The moment you start talking about earned and unearned you embark on the journey to self-entitled MMO player. It is not a journey to embark on. You are saying that cheap boosters destroys the economy. Why allow people to destroy the economy because they are good at Hex? If you treat one source of cheap boosters as lesser boosters you have to treat them all the same way. After all, in the end, what VIP actually gives someone is a small taste of what good tournament players have - access to $1 boosters.


5. Binding VIP boosters would eliminate the problem topic on hand.
Have you worked much with data? You can't just wave a wand and add a capability to an item that is not already there. At the moment in Hex, things are actually either account bound items (mercenaries, sleeves, KS bonuses, starter PVE) that are untradable, or free to trade item. To implement this, you need to implement the account bound boosters. As a person not privy to their application development, you have no idea how much implementation or effort this would take. You're actually demanding structural change in the database, changes to the ways that accounts are stored, implementation changes at the trading level, changes all over the place, because now there are suddenly items that can be either account bound or tradeable depending on their source. It is very likely not trivial. Why delay release? The VIP issue CANNOT be there at release, as release boosters are at less than the value of VIP.

Again, if it bothers you that much, why not campaign to turn the VIP into something that currently exists in the game (like a free draft) rather than something that would actually have to be implemented (account bound boosters). At least that way you clearly represent what VIP is for.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 07:27 PM
~ Your logic validates an IQ equivalent to the cost of a booster pack... .89 on the low end up to a 2 on the high end ~

And explain why, let me give you a lesson.

Abuser has 50,000 accounts we will say, all with VIP.
4 boosters per month at 1$ each. 50,000 x 4 = 200,000 boosters and $200,000 spent.
If he sells each booster at $1.25 he makes $250,000. That means $50,000 potential profit at that price (not including any primals he would have got). This is 1/4th of his investment in profit. Which also means, 1/4th of his accounts would need to be banned for him to lose profit (12500 accounts would need to be banned in this scenario). Thats not going to happen~ its very likely less than 1000 of them would even be banned, they aren't just going to ban every account that is idle with a VIP or trading their VIP boosters, they have to investigate each and every account they ban and they simply will not have the manpower to ban 12500 accounts per month when they need to look into the cases separately.

Captain_Obvious
06-14-2013, 07:35 PM
And explain why, let me give you a lesson.

Abuser has 50,000 accounts we will say, all with VIP.
4 boosters per month at 1$ each. 50,000 x 4 = 200,000 boosters and $200,000 spent.
If he sells each booster at $1.25 he makes $250,000. That means $50,000 potential profit at that price (not including any primals he would have got). This is 1/4th of his investment in profit. Which also means, 1/4th of his accounts would need to be banned for him to lose profit (12500 accounts would need to be banned in this scenario). Thats not going to happen~ its very likely less than 1000 of them would even be banned, they aren't just going to ban every account that is idle with a VIP or trading their VIP boosters, they have to investigate each and every account they ban and they simply will not have the manpower to ban 12500 accounts per month when they need to look into the cases separately.

~Congratulations you can type ludicrous numbers into a calculator successfully [golf clap]... your logic is still derisory~

yovalord
06-14-2013, 07:51 PM
Who are you to say how boosters must be used. The VIP is there to give a few boosters a month to a person. It is not there to say they must be spent in Yovalord's approved fashion.



If I can have fun setting up my keep defense and encourage people to play by putting a booster in, why is that more invalid a use of VIP than cracking it open or using it for draft entry. I'll be fine, with a free draft a week, I'd be disappointed in my play if I couldn't earn a booster a week from it. Hopefully there will be plenty of non-KS players though. And VIP at least gives them something for supporting the game. Seems selfish to me for people who got 100s of boosters for under a dollar to use however they like to deny others who get a miniscule amount in comparison from the same privilege. Would you scream if the KS boosters were made BoA to preserver market value?



The moment you start talking about earned and unearned you embark on the journey to self-entitled MMO player. It is not a journey to embark on. You are saying that cheap boosters destroys the economy. Why allow people to destroy the economy because they are good at Hex? If you treat one source of cheap boosters as lesser boosters you have to treat them all the same way. After all, in the end, what VIP actually gives someone is a small taste of what good tournament players have - access to $1 boosters.


Have you worked much with data? You can't just wave a wand and add a capability to an item that is not already there. At the moment in Hex, things are actually either account bound items (mercenaries, sleeves, KS bonuses, starter PVE) that are untradable, or free to trade item. To implement this, you need to implement the account bound boosters. As a person not privy to their application development, you have no idea how much implementation or effort this would take. You're actually demanding structural change in the database, changes to the ways that accounts are stored, implementation changes at the trading level, changes all over the place, because now there are suddenly items that can be either account bound or tradeable depending on their source. It is very likely not trivial. Why delay release? The VIP issue CANNOT be there at release, as release boosters are at less than the value of VIP.

Again, if it bothers you that much, why not campaign to turn the VIP into something that currently exists in the game (like a free draft) rather than something that would actually have to be implemented (account bound boosters). At least that way you clearly represent what VIP is for.

(answering repsonses in order)
1.Im suggesting a viable way to prevent an exploit before it happens. I will have the VIP program, i backed $500 in to hex, im more worried about the games economy more than what i can do with 4 cheap boosters i will be getting per month. They will all be going towards drafting anyway.

2.I wouldn't scream if i couldn't trade my KS boosters, if i couldn't use them to draft id be upset, but i can. I dont think we have heard that we could put boosters into our keep defense reward yet, that would be neat if we could i guess. Either way, we are talking about FOUR boosters that you got over the course of 4 weeks. Use your other boosters, its not a big deal. I cant sell or trade my "Free weekly draft". I havnt seen anybody complain about that, because its silly.

3. You are really playing with words on this one. You are NOT garunteed a prize when drafting, in fact you MOST LIKELY wont win. You are however garunteed 4 boosters per month through the VIP. If you would like the VIP to be changed to "There is a 1 in 4 chance that you will actually get your boosters per week" (which is essentially what the drafting odds are, 8 people enter 2 win) id be for that.

4. and lastly my favorite. As somebody who could program and implement this feature myself in less than 5 lines of code (depending on the language), you are wrong, dead wrong. You know what this would take? Add a new item to the database, we will call it "VIP_Booster", has the same line of code as your regular booster, except at the end it has the the line of code that makes something not tradable like any other non trade item has. Yes, ive worked with C++, HTML, C#, Java, and python. This is not a hard task and its not something confusing, it could done in literally 10 minutes time.

Im not campaigning anything, because VIP is not out yet. And im not hell bent on having VIP packs soulbound if they can find another solution to the problem that isn't "We will do a good job finding people abusing this". No company wants exploiters, every company has them.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 07:54 PM
~Congratulations you can type ludicrous numbers into a calculator successfully [golf clap]... your logic is still derisory~

~~~~And you still cant give a reason why~~~~~~ maybe you have trouble with reading comprehension. You can take free classes online for that now you know~

dogmod
06-14-2013, 07:59 PM
Just make it so that you can enter a draft with 4 VIP boosters instead of 3 + 1 and then all the people whining about how they want to use the boosters to get plat to get a draft will get their draft... Or even better make VIP boosters refundable for 1 plat so you can spend that dollar you gave somewhere else.

Arbiter seems to enjoy twisting words and can't seem to hold multiple threads of logic at once. Have you figured out why I said "sigh, just sigh" yet or is that something to far back in the thread to think about?

I don't think anyone is saying that 4 vip boosters tradeable would not be more flexible or allow more options than 4 vip boosters untradeable. It is just a cost benefit scenario. Hell if you want to argue that anything that is more fun or flexible should be done go and argure that all boosters should be free. Definitely more flexible and cheaper too!

Cost... Benefit...

And I think a lot of people are discounting the fact that in the long run they want cash prizes and possibly a platinum cash out option. This only amplifies the reasons why they should make VIP untradeable. Even if it is just one account each time you sell you VIP booster for more than 1 dollar you are undercutting CZE for profit, and why should we allow that?

ossuary
06-14-2013, 08:13 PM
Can we set individual threads to be invisible? :p

nearlysober
06-14-2013, 08:14 PM
And you still cant give a reason why Because, even if they can sell the VIP boosters for $1.99 (unrealistic) they're only making $1.99 per week per credit card.

Doesn't matter if you multiply that by a hundred, or a hundred-thousand... it's simply not worth it on a per credit card basis.

BossHoss
06-14-2013, 08:15 PM
(answering repsonses in order)
1.Im suggesting a viable way to prevent an exploit before it happens. I will have the VIP program, i backed $500 in to hex, im more worried about the games economy more than what i can do with 4 cheap boosters i will be getting per month. They will all be going towards drafting anyway.

~You are trying to prevent an exploit as ridiculous as collecting pop cans from 50,000 different vending machines for refunds~



2. I cant sell or trade my "Free weekly draft". I havnt seen anybody complain about that, because its silly.

~I am relieved to see you understand the concept of silliness, now just to get you to grasp it~


3. You are really playing with words on this one. You are NOT garunteed a prize when drafting, in fact you MOST LIKELY wont win.

~Not sure your talent level but I`m sure winning 1 of 3 matches in a swiss pairing queue will happen more often than you think~


4. and lastly my favorite. As somebody who could program and implement this feature myself in less than 5 lines of code (depending on the language), you are wrong, dead wrong. You know what this would take? Add a new item to the database, we will call it "VIP_Booster", has the same line of code as your regular booster, except at the end it has the the line of code that makes something not tradable like any other non trade item has. Yes, ive worked with C++, HTML, C#, Java, and python. This is not a hard task and its not something confusing, it could done in literally 10 minutes time.

~With your grammatical errors and spelling mistakes so prevalent I`d hate to see the mess that 5 lines of code would contain~



Yes, ive worked with C++, HTML, C#, Java, and python. This is not a hard task and its not something confusing, it could done in literally 10 minutes time.

~I got a C+ in Science, Wore the C and was #16 for my chess club, I also drink coffee, my friend has a snake and I can also tell time~

dogmod
06-14-2013, 08:16 PM
~You are trying to prevent an exploit as ridiculous as collecting pop cans from 50,000 different vending machines for refunds~



~I am relieved to see you understand the concept of silliness, now just to get you to grasp it~



~Not sure your talent level but I`m sure winning 1 of 3 matches in a swiss pairing queue will happen more often than you think~



~With your grammatical errors and spelling mistakes so prevalent I`d hate to see the mess that 5 lines of code would contain~




~I got a C+ in Science, Wore the C and was #16 for my chess club, I also drink coffee, my friend has a snake and I can also tell time~

Boss you forgot to switch to captain obvious account o;

Mike411
06-14-2013, 08:18 PM
Again, if it bothers you that much, why not campaign to turn the VIP into something that currently exists in the game (like a free draft)

Yeah, a monthly free draft would absolutely be better than the current system. This was mentioned on another VIP thread, and I think it would introduce more people to drafting which would be fun.

BossHoss
06-14-2013, 08:19 PM
Boss you forgot to switch to captain obvious account o;

And the troll mask melts LMAO

Arbiter
06-14-2013, 08:41 PM
4. and lastly my favorite. As somebody who could program and implement this feature myself in less than 5 lines of code (depending on the language), you are wrong, dead wrong. You know what this would take? Add a new item to the database, we will call it "VIP_Booster", has the same line of code as your regular booster, except at the end it has the the line of code that makes something not tradable like any other non trade item has. Yes, ive worked with C++, HTML, C#, Java, and python. This is not a hard task and its not something confusing, it could done in literally 10 minutes time.


Adding a field that says trade or not is one thing. Making sure it is accessed everywhere in the system it should be is another, especially for an item that was never supposed to be locked down. I've seen enough "simple" changes that caused unintended problems elsewhere to view with skepticism the statement that something can be fixed in five lines of code.

You've shown a remarkable lack of logic which is important for programming. I doubt it is your bread and butter.

The fact that there are things such as player constructed tournaments, guild drafts, or even potentially just groups of eight drafting for no prizes, mean that there are potential issues for this to occur everywhere.

You try for change by putting forth an outlandish scenario of a person who goes to the effort of setting up 50,000 accounts in a game that currently has 20,000 or so. It will never happen. You would have to be a complete and utter idiot to think that it will on that scale.

I think you are more worried about a few people having multiple accounts while you have one. Ignore people like that, let CZE deal with them, they have clearly said it is against their terms of service and they will take measures to stop it. You can't really publicise your methods of taking measures or people who want to will find ways to work around it. If it becomes a big issue they will do something about it. You have fun your way, let people have fun their way. Let new players get a small bargain and stop insisting it be restricted.

If the fact that there will be some people in an MMO that are getting an advantage illegally bothers you, I would suggest that MMOs and TCGs are not the game-space you should be investing time in. It will happen regardless of what is done. Lock everything down so no crime can be committed? That sounds about as good a solution for a game as it does for real life.

ossuary
06-14-2013, 09:20 PM
Yo I heard somewhere that you're allowed to have up to 50,000 VIP accounts attached to your login. Can a purple name please confirm?

THX.

yovalord
06-14-2013, 09:30 PM
Adding a field that says trade or not is one thing. Making sure it is accessed everywhere in the system it should be is another, especially for an item that was never supposed to be locked down. I've seen enough "simple" changes that caused unintended problems elsewhere to view with skepticism the statement that something can be fixed in five lines of code.

You've shown a remarkable lack of logic which is important for programming. I doubt it is your bread and butter.


Think about it, how many places would the VIP booster exist in the code. You can only obtain them one way. Also, 50,000 was just a hypothetical number. Could have been 500, could have been 1000, or even 1,000,000. It just has to be enough to drive the market value of boosters into the ground.

NewbieLam
06-14-2013, 09:40 PM
YA I got some CC on the black market, what the best way to make money?!? I am going to make a whole bunch of VIP hex account and will make 25 cent on the dollar selling boosters!?! The boosters generate once a week tho....but it ok, I can wait a month to make back my initial investment?!? Because you know I pay 4 dollars up front for each account and won't be making that 25% until a month goes by.

Kietay
06-14-2013, 10:13 PM
Even if this does happen it will just make cards cheaper all around. This is something I dont really like but it wouldnt be negative to CZE in any way. They would be making a lot of money selling virtual goods with a guaranteed income from all the subs and people would just pay less for their cards.

Blurr
06-15-2013, 03:42 AM
Well presumably anyone selling their VIP boosters would be "giving away" a LOT more packs than they are opening. Wouldn't it be easy to just compare the ratio of boosters traded/gifted to boosters opened? I would think that would be a simple way to flag accounts for investigation. You could also check things like time played, # of matches played, etc.

Sure if someone sold them for 1 cent less (for exaggeration) they'd make what, like $8 per month per account? Assuming he had 100 accounts, after 1 month he'd have $800, but he'd have a lot of accounts that likely have little or no play time on them and little or no opening of those packs. After 2 or 3 months they'd probably be easier to investigate. In 6 months he might have $4800, but I don't think that would impact Cryptozoic's 6 month revenues all that much, and the guy would have to be spending insane numbers of hours just making the accounts look like they're not farm accounts.

madar
06-15-2013, 06:39 AM
meanwhike i cooked my lunch i spent a funny half hour to make a business plan to this project in head :D
like, how much time needed to register 1 account, attach the credit card number, search it from the database, write in the captcha, generate name, give email address - oops, i need unique email addresses too - so register an email address too - then sub to VIP program, etc, so i would need a program what doin this, or a tons of cheap workers... count the fee of the workers or the programmer, etc

was fun ^^

Malicus
06-15-2013, 07:35 AM
Think about it, how many places would the VIP booster exist in the code. You can only obtain them one way. Also, 50,000 was just a hypothetical number. Could have been 500, could have been 1000, or even 1,000,000. It just has to be enough to drive the market value of boosters into the ground.

500 or 1000 is insignificant and wont have a large enough impact on the market to worry, the scale required to impact the economy is my argument why this won't be a problem and 1,000,000 would be so good for the game the idea makes me giddy.

Any large scale operation would become virtually impossible to hide once you tried to cash out, the only method that even comes close is hoarding boosters for a significant period so you can limit the number of accounts linked in any secondary market transaction and increase the time between start and any directly suspicious behaviour to overcome the very high risk period before VIP becomes profitable to resell.

The ratio of dummy accounts to buyers will create significant warping of the player base which will be detectable.

Opportunity cost is an economic concept which is useful for evaluating alternate scenarios not an accounting concept for calculating lost revenue please stop using opportunity cost as an argument in a vacuum, selling 4000 VIP boosters a week does not equate to 4000 lost revenue as the demand at $1 is higher than the demand at $2.

While in theory it is possible for VIP sales to impact on profit it requires so many more factors that we are not aware of that any speculation is largely pointless since the ones implementing the process have all the information we don't and I imagine more than a basic understanding of economics and business.

The level of risk involved makes investing in something like this foolish if you are legitimate and pointless if you are not.