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GreyGriffin
06-15-2013, 03:46 AM
Is exponential power too good? Is there a reason that Escalate doesn't have an arithmatic progression (For instance, Ragefire does 2 damage, and would Escalate 2, meaning that subsequent casts would do 4, then 6, then 8 for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cast respectively, rather than the current mechanic which would give 4, 8, and then 16.)

Frankly, if 3 of these cards get drawn by turn 2, you are down to 4 HP by turn 4, assuming no other direct damage. Is this balanced?

Slish
06-15-2013, 03:58 AM
Escalation is good, but I doubt it's too good..

The odds of drawing escalation card 3 times in a row like you gave in an example is ultra-low, like 0.01%
Maybe someone can give the math here.

Avignon
06-15-2013, 04:00 AM
In WoWTCG, there is a similar mechanic with a card called Concussive Barrage. It is "deal 2 damage, double this damage for each other card called Concussive Barrage in your graveyard".

While it was the card that cause me to lose my quarter final this year at realm champs, I don't think its completely overpowered.

Ragefire is very similar with the exception that it replaces itself back in the deck so in theory you can redraw it. Even with that extra 1/50ish chance per draw, I don't think its overpowered. If someone has done 14 damage to you on their 4th turn, there is a very good chance they have nothing on the board and you are in a good position to win anyway. Its better played as an early control card for their allies and a late game finisher if you are lucky enough to draw the third one.

Verdant
06-15-2013, 04:00 AM
Article about escalation and chances: http://hextcgpro.com/?p=477

QuantumZeruul
06-15-2013, 04:02 AM
Another thing to think about is how it affects the rest of your deck. Each time you play an Escallation card, you are putting cards back in the deck, which means the chances of drawing any certain card goes down again. Would this be a sufficient penalty to detract from the overall benefit?

Fireblast
06-15-2013, 04:04 AM
Escalation odds are not good, it's a good finisher in a combo looping deck or a heavy draw control deck, but that's it.

~

Arbiter
06-15-2013, 06:32 AM
The red burn is probably good enough for any red deck. Spot removal is always good, and the occasional lucky win because of it is just a bonus. I agree that the other reveals only have a place in control decks (and am unsure about the black one). And it is always good when a card has improved effectiveness in a long game, in case you get caught in one.

Escalation will go up in value if there are some appropriate card draw cards for the decks that use it. It leaps a lot in value if you have access to cards that can search for it.

I had the same initial reaction. Seeing the phrase "double x" is cause for a double-take. In the end, though, as a pure finisher they are slow enough to allow the opponent a chance to beat your game.

They won't be great for sealed, they will be awesome in PVE. At the moment they are OK in PVP, with a caveat that it is the sort of mechanic where you really need to be able to see the whole card set available, as it has great synergy with some other effects.

Hollywood
06-15-2013, 07:50 AM
They won't be great for sealed

They'll be very good in limited, especially any burn spells.

ZacPhoenix
06-15-2013, 07:56 AM
I think Escalation will be one of those abilities that inexperienced players will be attracted to and heavily focus on, without realising the problems of it outlined in the article linked above. It sounds better than it actually is. Unless you have some mechanism to draw the cards you're looking for in your deck, I think it is largely a gimmick and may be dangerous if it detracts you from focusing on building solid decks that don't depend on drawing same/similar cards.

Malicus
06-15-2013, 08:08 AM
I think Escalation will be one of those abilities that inexperienced players will be attracted to and heavily focus on, without realising the problems of it outlined in the article linked above. It sounds better than it actually is. Unless you have some mechanism to draw the cards you're looking for in your deck, I think it is largely a gimmick and may be dangerous if it detracts you from focusing on building solid decks that don't depend on drawing same/similar cards.

Even assuming that I think once they play them and see it not coming off right they may ask the question why and learn a lot. That is one of the biggest problems we are having now living in a theory only space, so many questions could be answered so easily if we could just play :).

Love your sig too btw.

Epsilon
06-15-2013, 08:54 AM
I think Escalation will be one of those abilities that inexperienced players will be attracted to and heavily focus on, without realising the problems of it outlined in the article linked above. It sounds better than it actually is. Unless you have some mechanism to draw the cards you're looking for in your deck, I think it is largely a gimmick and may be dangerous if it detracts you from focusing on building solid decks that don't depend on drawing same/similar cards.

Did we read the same article? I thought the author came to the conclusion that escalation WAS worth it, in the end. The example he works with is Ragefire. While I may not necessarily agree with his assessment over all, the point is made very clear that Ragefire is superior to Burn overall. As the game goes on, Burn becomes less and less useful, where as Ragefire becomes more and more useful.

BenRGamer
06-15-2013, 08:56 AM
I believe Escalation will be even more powerful in Draft, the minimum card limit is only 40 in there, correct?

So you have a much better chance of drawing escalation cards in there, though admittedly that wholly requires you to get escalation cards from the pack, but there it is.

Tiuvath
06-15-2013, 08:59 AM
I believe Escalation will be even more powerful in Draft, the minimum card limit is only 40 in there, correct?

So you have a much better chance of drawing escalation cards in there, though admittedly that wholly requires you to get escalation cards from the pack, but there it is.

YOu have a 60 card deck in Draft aswell. You didnt count the resources you have to add

jaxsonbateman
06-15-2013, 09:06 AM
I believe Escalation will be even more powerful in Draft, the minimum card limit is only 40 in there, correct?

So you have a much better chance of drawing escalation cards in there, though admittedly that wholly requires you to get escalation cards from the pack, but there it is.
The difference in draft though is that for an escalation card - they're all rare at this point, so the odds of getting even one, let alone multiples, are pretty slim. The odds of drawing it in your opening hand are 17.5% if you have a single copy, and then your first card draw is a 3% chance, increasing from there (seeing as your deck gets thinner).

In constructed you'd likely have 4 copies, so it's much more likely to draw even just one, let alone multiples.




As for escalation as a whole, it's fine. From what we've seen thus far, the initial effects are slightly underpowered (Ragefire is inferior to Burn on the first cast, Chronic Flooding doesn't have a card to compare to but is weak, Relentless Corruption is one random card for 3 mana, and Eternal Youth is both worse than Soothing Breeze and also lifegain with nothing else). Escalation will make those cards playable for the off-chance that you draw a second or more, as the first 3 seem playable even with their slightly underpowered initial effect, but the mechanic as it stands certainly isn't too good, and probably won't be until they print a more reliable tutor than The Transcended.

jaxsonbateman
06-15-2013, 09:06 AM
YOu have a 60 card deck in Draft aswell. You didnt count the resources you have to add
Draft deck minimum size is 40, and what most people stick with. Typically 22-24 non-sources, 16-18 sources.

Epsilon
06-15-2013, 09:10 AM
I believe Escalation will be even more powerful in Draft, the minimum card limit is only 40 in there, correct?

So you have a much better chance of drawing escalation cards in there, though admittedly that wholly requires you to get escalation cards from the pack, but there it is.


That's assuming you can get four copies of your escalation card, which I highly doubt. Maybe 3, but if I were down to 2 copies, I'd think about other spells or troops instead. (Depending on the overall situation, of course)




YOu have a 60 card deck in Draft aswell. You didnt count the resources you have to add

http://hextcg.com/drafting-in-hex/


DRAFTING AND BUILDING YOUR DECK
In a Booster Draft HEX tournament, your minimum deck size is 40 cards (unlike a Constructed tournament, where the minimum deck size is 60). You can include any number of a given card in your deck. For example, if you drafted 6 Charge Bots, you can play them all.

maybe you can get 30 copies of a escalation card!

Brumby66
06-15-2013, 09:14 AM
Escalation is only good in 2 situations:

1) You have a way of tutoring the cards.
2) You are playing other cards that help the same goal, like ragefire in a burn deck. If you are doing burn damage with other cards then any additional ragefires you pull are just an added bonus.

jaxsonbateman
06-15-2013, 09:17 AM
Also, the kind of deck has an impact. The actual escalation part of those cards favors long games where you get increased chances of drawing the cards, so they're better in control. Also better if you can draw more cards - so again, control. Relentless Corruption could actually be decent for that reason - it seems the most likely to go in a hard-control style deck.

Goombus
06-15-2013, 01:51 PM
Having a deck with the evolution card "The Transcended" and a lot of escalation spells.

The evolved card "The Transcended" allows players to choose a card from their deck instead of drawing a card randomly. Thus being able to pick out your Escalated spell cards very easily once you have it out.

If only on was lucky enough to keep it alive in play long enough to transform from a Acsetic Aspirant > Enlightened Seeker > The Transcended

If you can keep it alive and manage to get him out...

Happy Escalating!

jaxsonbateman
06-15-2013, 02:03 PM
Yep, keeping him alive is the problem. For at least one point in time, he's a 0/1 before he gains any advantage, and he can't be saved via quick actions due to his can't-play-cards clause. Effectively, this means in most PvP games he's not going to live to actually pay off. But if he does pay off, you should win, escalate-or-otherwise; being able to pinpoint the best cards in your deck every turn is amazingly powerful.

Tiuvath
06-15-2013, 02:08 PM
http://hextcg.com/drafting-in-hex/

Oh nice hadn't read that yet.

Erebus
06-15-2013, 02:17 PM
I think Relentless Corruption would be really fun in the mirror.

You relentless Corruption your opponent and get lucky and draw his Relentless Corruption. Now you have 5 copies in your deck :D

Banarok
06-15-2013, 02:36 PM
Article about escalation and chances: http://hextcgpro.com/?p=477

i should likely do the math myself, that looks like the math of when you graveyard the card sincenit does not calculate for the fact you reshuffle it.

since if you escalate you shuffle it into the deck theres a chance next escalation you pull will be the one you just used even, the drawchance of escalation goes up by alot the longer a game goes on, so in theory you can draw it a 5th or sith time making huge damage at close to no cost.

but well if it's overpowered they will simply change it so you don't put it back into your deck or just make the cards weaker from get go so i'm not worried.

jaxsonbateman
06-15-2013, 02:47 PM
I don't know if they edited it since, but when I first read the article there was at least one maths error.

I've got a video on my channel where I did an analysis of Soothing Breeze and Eternal Youth, and did a scenario for likelihood to get a second EY after playing one from an opening hand on turn 3. Actual video is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Pz7XgYVR1mg#t=303s), but long story sort - takes 8 more card draws (and without putting any extra cards back into the deck obviously) to reach a 50-50 chance of having seen at least a second, and to reach a pretty high chance of having seen at least one more (80%) it would take another 9 draws.

Aradon
06-15-2013, 03:58 PM
It'd probably be worth playing with something like Peek, though. I know I want to put that card in pretty much every blue deck I make, so far :P

Baigan
06-15-2013, 04:26 PM
i should likely do the math myself, that looks like the math of when you graveyard the card sincenit does not calculate for the fact you reshuffle it.

You might be right (haven't clicked the article), but the straightforward way to get the exact value would be to use conditional probabilities, which would just be a horrid task for a 60 card deck. Even if the numbers are wrong, they're probably not wrong by much.

Hollywood
06-15-2013, 05:10 PM
Yeah. Because NOBODY played Beacons in Magic limited cuz they were terrible.

I mean, really guys? You seriously think that a removal spell that shuffles back in your deck and becomes better each time is bad???

Fireblast
06-16-2013, 05:06 AM
We're talking about Escalation, not ONLY Ragefire.
Ragefire also has 2 blood threshold which is alot.

~

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 05:19 AM
Ragefire is definitely playable in limited, and will be potentially playable in certain PvP decks given the lack of burn options atm.

Indormi
06-16-2013, 05:30 AM
Right now I dont find scalation to be that great unless you build around it. Ragefire might be good , cause there are not that many cards that do direct damage atm. Maybe the black one, but the rest of them, if you do not build around them I dont find them worth it.

ossuary
06-16-2013, 06:17 AM
If you think about it, assuming 4 of every card that has the feature you are using the Escalate card for (burn, mill, draw cards, whatever), you have an equal chance of pulling the 1st card of any of them, but you will ALWAYS have a higher percent chance to draw the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. Escalate card than the normal card, because the normal card is consumed, and the Escalate card shuffles back in. Your chance to randomly draw all 4 burns is extremely low, whereas the chance to draw a 4th ragefire is effectively identical to the chance to draw the first.

From that point of view, even with random drawing, an Escalate card is superior to a standard card.

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 06:36 AM
A standard card with the same effect. The problem is, these cards are probably all being designed to be slightly weaker than comparitive effects on their first use.

If we compare:
Burn and Ragefire - first Ragefire is half as efficient, second Ragefire is equally as efficient, still not a quick action
Soothing Breeze and Eternal Youth - Soothing Breeze is 3.5 health per mana (hpm); Eternal Youth's first use is 1.67 HPM, and second use is 3.33 HPM
Relentless Corruption and Oracle Song (not the exact same effect, but both deal with 'drawing' cards) - first Corruption gets half as many cards, second Corruption is on par
Chronic Flooding doesn't really have a comparative card yet.

This isn't me bagging out escalation - the effect is balanced around potential. However, even with shuffling back, the odds of seeing a second card in a competitive match (draft or constructed) aren't great, and third/fourth+ get pretty small. Of course, that all changes depending on the deck being used; a control deck designed for long matches and with good card draw has a much better chance of finding the second/third/fourth use of an escalation card. I've been watching Pro Tour: Dragon's Maze over the past few days, and it has not been uncommon to see people play 2-3 Sphinx's Revelation in a single game (though admittedly, all the decks that use it are built around major card advantage and dig).

Indormi
06-16-2013, 06:58 AM
A standard card with the same effect. The problem is, these cards are probably all being designed to be slightly weaker than comparitive effects on their first use.

If we compare:
Burn and Ragefire - first Ragefire is half as efficient, second Ragefire is equally as efficient, still not a quick action
Soothing Breeze and Eternal Youth - Soothing Breeze is 3.5 health per mana (hpm); Eternal Youth's first use is 1.67 HPM, and second use is 3.33 HPM
Relentless Corruption and Oracle Song (not the exact same effect, but both deal with 'drawing' cards) - first Corruption gets half as many cards, second Corruption is on par
Chronic Flooding doesn't really have a comparative card yet.

This isn't me bagging out escalation - the effect is balanced around potential. However, even with shuffling back, the odds of seeing a second card in a competitive match (draft or constructed) aren't great, and third/fourth+ get pretty small. Of course, that all changes depending on the deck being used; a control deck designed for long matches and with good card draw has a much better chance of finding the second/third/fourth use of an escalation card. I've been watching Pro Tour: Dragon's Maze over the past few days, and it has not been uncommon to see people play 2-3 Sphinx's Revelation in a single game (though admittedly, all the decks that use it are built around major card advantage and dig).

Pretty much this, I dont follow the competitive MTG scene but yeah if you use a deck about card advantage and a lot of dig cards they are more than good, but in your "standard"(not the game mode) deck they are not that efficient. Because it is set 1, you may want them in your deck to get more cards that do a particular role in your deck, but without any mechanic to synergise with them. I'll rather play their non-escalation counterparts.

Brumby66
06-16-2013, 07:03 AM
Pretty much this, I dont follow the competitive MTG scene but yeah if you use a deck about card advantage and a lot of dig cards they are more than good, but in your "standard"(not the game mode) deck they are not that efficient. Because it is set 1, you may want them in your deck to get more cards that do a particular role in your deck, but without any mechanic to synergise with them. I'll rather play their non-escalation counterparts.

I agree, but if you are already playing the non-escalation cards and need more then you will end up playing both. The standards are better from a mathematical stand point, but you can only play 4.

Hollywood
06-16-2013, 08:59 AM
Right now I dont find scalation to be that great unless you build around it. Ragefire might be good , cause there are not that many cards that do direct damage atm. Maybe the black one, but the rest of them, if you do not build around them I dont find them worth it.

Well Extinction isn't that good if you don't build around it either. Deck building 101.

"Most" escalation cards will be at least playable in limited and some will be bonkers (if someone manages to draft 4 Chronic Madness, gg). Something I'm sure most people don't think about is that they allow you to never deck, sans any counter magic, mill, or other shenanigans from an opponent of course.

Constructed? Only 2 of the 4 cards shown so far make the cut, and only in dedicated decks IMO: Ragefire and Chronic Madness. Life gain is generally terrible in constructed outside of a specific win condition (Test of Endurance) or an "infinite" life gain which makes it impossible for an opponent to win thru damage. Relentless Corruption is just too slow and awkwardly costed to be of any real impact. Who knows, maybe they'll make an Imperial Seal and it will be the stone nuts for hosing your opponent?

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 09:41 AM
Something I'm sure most people don't think about is that they allow you to never deck, sans any counter magic, mill, or other shenanigans from an opponent of course.
Until you realise they're all rare at this point so the odds of getting one, let alone multiples are dramatically small. :-P

As for the four released thus far - Chronic Madness will only be constructed playable if mill gets more support. Right now it has even less support than in MTG, though IIRC CZE has said they want to make it a viable wincon. Ragefire is playable at this point, though that's largely because out of the currently spoiled burn spells only Burn is more efficient than it. Relentless Corruption definitely has the potential to be played, but of course, in the right deck. It's the card out of the 4 that leans itself most toward control, and control decks have the most chance of getting multiple casts of escalation cards due to length of game and card draw. And double threshold 3-drops are far more forgiving than 2 drops, and be crafted in such a way that your 2 drops and 3 drops never conflict with each other.

And of course, Eternal Youth is garbage (in a vacuum).

kraluk
06-16-2013, 10:28 AM
http://hextcgpro.com/?p=477

These numbers do not take into account cards that filter your deck either, every time you see a card and it is not an escalation cards these percentages just go up. Is there any math cruncher who can do a more indepth look at those numbers?

BossHoss
06-16-2013, 11:28 AM
"Most" escalation cards will be at least playable in limited and some will be bonkers (if someone manages to draft 4 Chronic Madness, gg).

If you manage to draft 4 of the same rare in a single draft then I think CZE has a major problem with the randomizer coding... I won`t be writing GG to my opponent as I will be writing WTF! to CZE.

4 of the same rare in 24 packs will not happen

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 11:46 AM
Well, it could happen - if we all draft enough that there's a big enough sample size, we could definitely get aberrations like that.

However, 4 of the same rare being opened in 24 packs and getting passed to the same one player? Yeah, that's even more ridiculous than the already ridiculous odds. :-P

Hollywood
06-16-2013, 11:49 AM
Hadn't seen they were all Rares. Seems kinda weird imo, cuz just going off of power level I would have assumed that they would all be uncommon.

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 11:52 AM
When deciding rares, it's both a balance of straight up power level, potential power level, and how often you want it to come up in limited. For example, a gimmicky card might be put to rare because the devs don't want it showing up in limited too often (in Magic, something like Possibility Storm or Wild Evocation comes to mind).

In the case of the escalation cards, they definitely have a high potential power - too high for uncommon. If it were uncommon getting 2 or 3, while not a gimme like most uncommons, would definitely be achievable. And with the reduced decksize and typically longer games, getting an 8 damage Ragefire would not be unheard of.

Looking forward to getting Ascetic Aspirant and one of the escalation cards in a single draft though. ;-)

jgsugden
06-16-2013, 12:05 PM
We've got a lot to learn about the game before we can conclude anything about optimal strategy. Although it is likely that MtG strategies will hold for Hex, I would not be surprised if Crypt introduces effective countermeasures that make traditional MtG strategies less sensible.

For example, if there are the right number of deck depletion cards in the set, then you'd expect to see 1 of 8 decks be capable of building an effective deck depletion deck against 40 cards in limited. That might change the assumption that minimal cards is always right Similarly, the assumption that direct damage/removal in limited is optimal is based upon the ttraditional set design found in MtG. They could also design the initial set to make that assumption be equally as false.

I'm not saying this will happen - just hat it is too soon to be sure that the MtG strategy holds for Hex.

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 12:09 PM
.

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 12:10 PM
We can say, however, that based purely on currently spoiled cards it holds true.

Hollywood
06-16-2013, 12:55 PM
How much you want to bet the Wild escalate is gonna be a pump spell? :) 2 cost, 2 Wild Threshold, target troop gets a permanent +2+2. Escalation.

Indormi
06-16-2013, 01:29 PM
How much you want to bet the Wild escalate is gonna be a pump spell? :) 2 cost, 2 Wild Threshold, target troop gets a permanent +2+2. Escalation.
I think the wild escalte card will be similar to wild growth, +4/+4 for 2 mana or +2/+2 for 1 mana until the end of the turn.( It may be +3/+3 for 1 mana too though).