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View Full Version : Auction House style: take notes from GW2 please



Prism
06-16-2013, 08:22 AM
Hey there. Just wanted to say that the best auction house design that I've seen in a game has been from Guild Wars 2.

The features that they include that would be perfect for a TCG such as hex since there is no stat ranges or variation other than experience and trophies, but I dont think that matters too much to most people.

In their AH:

- Buyers can list a buy price at a set amount. Say you think a card is going to be really good or is already good and you want to be a part of the market. Set a amount that you want to purchase, say 50, and a price, say $1. Then if anyone lists the card for $1 or less they will be sold to you. Sellers and buyers will be able to see all of the list prices and buy prices in order of most to least expensive to keep an extremely clutter-free and good looking interface with lots of functionality

- On the reverse, sellers can do the same thing. If they feel that their card is better than what the market rate is they list their card for what is probably more than what the card is actively selling for. If there is a sudden surge of demand and the card's price does shoot up the seller will be able to get the high amount of gold, although this feature is included in most AH systems

The combination of the 2 work very well, especially for TCGs with their limited variation in card attributes.

Example: You want to buy a Zombie Plague so you search the auction house to see what the market is like for them. Here's what you might see (explanations are in brackets, not seen in the auction house interface)

ZOMBIE PLAGUE
Buyers
34x @$1 (a cheapskate)
506x @$8 (someone looking to corner the market and get profit. They are willing to buy a TON so if there is ever a surge of supply they will get them)
14x @$9 (someone who wants a lot but wants them faster but not as fast as the last guy)
4x @$10 (someone who is willing to pay the highest non-buyout price and just wants their playset for a deck fairly quickly, but doesn't need them right NOW)

Sellers
1x @$11 (someone selling one they got in a draft, wanting some Plat fairly quickly so they can draft more)
10x @$12 (an investor who doesn't want to hold this card anymore but not willing to sell for less than 12 plat)
303x @15 (someone who bought a TON, most likely the guy who is buying mass amounts at $8 and wants to make a profit)


So this gives an example of how streamlined and useful an auction house system is that removes all the clutter. In something like WoW if I wanted to buy some Copper Ore to make a chest armor I would search the auction house and then look through pages of different stack sizes and maybe even needing a special addon to see which copper ore is the cheapest per unit. There is very little ways to invest if you want to buy some but cheaper than the market rate or sell some if you want to sell instantly.

Hopefully this is seen by developers as this is a much better design than the traditional auction-house. A card that won the 'pro tour' if there is something like that most likely will be sold in the forums so that issue if there is demand wont occur. Also the full art and foil versions of cards will be filterable if chosen. Just click a checkbox to show what versions you want and it'll show you the same interface with prices.

Let me know if you think this system would work well in this game
Peace

primer
06-16-2013, 08:31 AM
Yea GW2 has probably the best auction house I've seen in games, they couldn't go far wrong at least looking at it.

mainstager
06-16-2013, 08:33 AM
Yea GW2 has probably the best auction house I've seen in games, they couldn't go far wrong at least looking at it.

Agreed. It is extremely well done.

Malicus
06-16-2013, 08:33 AM
This discussion came up previously but you have hit on most of the salient points and the general consensus was that you could trade cards as commodities so this type of market would be optimal especially a year or two down the track when the number of possible cards for sale has grown.

majin
06-16-2013, 08:44 AM
yes, among all the mmo that i played, GW2's AH is the most efficient. I usually queue up items that I want to buy and sell before I logged out or before I play and don't need to watch the market as often as I need to which gives me more time to actually play.

hopefully the hex's market place will have similar features

Shivdaddy
06-16-2013, 08:45 AM
I dont like the idea of someone having a BUYING x1000 cards and wiping the board. Put some sort of limit on it and I would be ok with it.

BossHoss
06-16-2013, 08:47 AM
I`d like to see a bundle feature too. It would be nice to list a set of commons, uncommons, playsets, complete set, etc.

Googolplex
06-16-2013, 09:22 AM
Agreed, EVE uses the same style, and it is vastly superior to a standard AH like WoWs.

Googolplex
06-16-2013, 09:23 AM
I dont like the idea of someone having a BUYING x1000 cards and wiping the board. Put some sort of limit on it and I would be ok with it.
Why on earth would you want to put a limit ? Over time, that will be doing more harm than good.

TheKraken
06-16-2013, 09:30 AM
This looks to be a great idea. This keeps a player from frequently checking the AH. I really hate having to do that so much in Diablo 3.

jaxsonbateman
06-16-2013, 09:43 AM
While I agree with the system and your example does illustrate the point, I do want to clarify that those X amount of buyers at each price aren't all necessarily one person, and usually aren't. Unless all this time I've been misunderstanding the GW2 AH.

downtreader
06-16-2013, 09:46 AM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

ossuary
06-16-2013, 09:54 AM
I like the idea, but the one thing this system doesn't take into account is the "condition" of the card - some people are going to care about whether or not the card has been played. Some people will just want the card and not care, but others will specifically be looking for a card that is already fully leveled up (or a pristine one that they can level themselves).

Also, this system doesn't take into account that famous tournament player who destroyed the competition with a brand new deck idea nobody ever saw before, and is now auctioning off the combo cards from the deck, showing his trophy for winning the big game - those cards would be even more collectible (Cory has talked about this kind of thing in some of the videos). How do you differentiate these types of scenarios in your AH structure?

ZeroCool
06-16-2013, 10:04 AM
Out of all the games I've played, GW 2 does have one of the better AH's. I second the idea, but don't necessarily think it needs to be as in depth as the GW 2 AH. Just my opinion though.

Prism
06-16-2013, 10:04 AM
Glad to see so many people agree with me! I don't think there will be any huge issues with single people controlling the market. Some savvy investors will make good profits, but nothing astronomical.

One thing to keep in mind if this is your fear is that there will probably be 10,000 or more 8 person drafts every week, probably FAR more. Even at this extremely low estimate there is far more than enough supply to keep a stranglehold from forming.

Card prices will revolve around demand (how good a card is) and the cost to obtain them (whatever the pack price and rarity ends up being). Artificial inflation is cool and keeps the market/financial aspect of TCGs fun(which is an important part of TCGs to get people excited about having cards), however I almost am certain that it won't be significant.

Take magic for example. Voice of resurgence is a mythic. You will get one in maybe 1 in 90 packs opened (I believe). It started out at $20 value. Then people saw that it was good and it rose to $40. Then demand kicked in as it turned out to be the most powerful card in a niche seasonal format (block constructed, only the most recent 3 card sets). It rose to $60. There was no artificial inflation there. Sure there is more of a chance with ease of buying and selling of a digital format (although I assume the auction house will take a cut to reduce this and to artificially simulate shipping prices and such) but it'll be fine.

Ramble done :P

Prism
06-16-2013, 10:14 AM
I like the idea, but the one thing this system doesn't take into account is the "condition" of the card - some people are going to care about whether or not the card has been played. Some people will just want the card and not care, but others will specifically be looking for a card that is already fully leveled up (or a pristine one that they can level themselves).

Also, this system doesn't take into account that famous tournament player who destroyed the competition with a brand new deck idea nobody ever saw before, and is now auctioning off the combo cards from the deck, showing his trophy for winning the big game - those cards would be even more collectible (Cory has talked about this kind of thing in some of the videos). How do you differentiate these types of scenarios in your AH structure?

I think I mentioned this in my first post, maybe I wasn't clear though. When searching for a card there are only a few attributes. Experience/foil-ness. Achievement level/full art-status (forgive me if i mixed these 2 up, I havent been following Hex too closely, I'm already sold on the game and want to keep the experience when alpha comes out an awesome surprise). And finally trophy case level.

The auction house could have check-boxes to filter cards after searching for a card (On another note, searching for a card should not just be restricted to typing in the name. There should be a full "mtg-gatherer" system built right into the AH. Be able to search for cards based on a certain attribute. Building an evasive sapphire deck? Search for sapphire flying creatures!).

Side-track aborted, these previously mentioned attributes could be sorted with check-boxes in the AH.

Default would probably include every type of the card in the auction house. All foils, alt arts, normal, prestine, whatever. You'd just be buying the cheapest version of a card as if you're using this search filter you just want a playable card and give no tuffs about if its foil.

You could also check a box to only show cards with ZERO experience if you want something pristine (I'm sure there will be a lot for sale, especially if cards don't get experience from draft events if this is something people really care about. I don't at all)

You could also search ONLY for full art foil cards, etc and see the pricing from buyers and sellers.

The only thing I care about in a card is the price and if it has a trophy on it. I don't really want my cards 'tainted' by other player's names, I only want my name there. So I would uncheck the box to show cards with trophies on them.

If there is a card with a famous pro player's trophy on it after they won a huge tournament you'd be able to sell it on a forum most likely or just list it for a huge amount on the auction and it should be able to show who's trophy it is.

Hopefully this clears up my vision of a great functional and sleek auction house

Shivdaddy
06-16-2013, 10:23 AM
Glad to see so many people agree with me! I don't think there will be any huge issues with single people controlling the market. Some savvy investors will make good profits, but nothing astronomical.

One thing to keep in mind if this is your fear is that there will probably be 10,000 or more 8 person drafts every week, probably FAR more. Even at this extremely low estimate there is far more than enough supply to keep a stranglehold from forming.

Card prices will revolve around demand (how good a card is) and the cost to obtain them (whatever the pack price and rarity ends up being). Artificial inflation is cool and keeps the market/financial aspect of TCGs fun(which is an important part of TCGs to get people excited about having cards), however I almost am certain that it won't be significant.

Take magic for example. Voice of resurgence is a mythic. You will get one in maybe 1 in 90 packs opened (I believe). It started out at $20 value. Then people saw that it was good and it rose to $40. Then demand kicked in as it turned out to be the most powerful card in a niche seasonal format (block constructed, only the most recent 3 card sets). It rose to $60. There was no artificial inflation there. Sure there is more of a chance with ease of buying and selling of a digital format (although I assume the auction house will take a cut to reduce this and to artificially simulate shipping prices and such) but it'll be fine.

Ramble done :P


MTGO has such a bad system for selling, cards can not artificially inflate. If someone had the chance to buy them all with you guys preferred GW2 system then the card would of been bought up by someone(s) with deep pockets and the card would artificially be worth more. This is why I do not want it what way or I want a limit of maybe 4x of buying 1 type of card at a time.

tautologico
06-16-2013, 10:29 AM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

I agree that the proposed system can become problematic in a system with real cash involved for these reasons.

kraluk
06-16-2013, 10:45 AM
I would enjoy the addon version "Auctioneer" of WoW's AH, I like watching statistics over what items are being sold for what prices over time, like for example:
"June 16th: Replicators Gambit, 500 gold
June 17th: Replicators Gambit, 550 gold" etc etc.

Those kind of statistics are the most fun to look at and control the market with... imo

Niedar
06-16-2013, 11:12 AM
Yeah so, this method of a market is a tried and tested for over 10 years in EVE and its not a problem at all. How anyone could think this system is worse than a normal AH is just incomprehensible. All this talk of market manipulation just doesn't happen on a scale that matters.

Edit: I should say it doesn't happen because its not possible, and even less so in a game like this where you can easily and accurately predict the probability of getting a certain card and then calculate the expected value of a pack based on the individual prices of each card. Any time prices become large enough you can just buy a ton of packs and then sell the cards on the market instantly.

TheKraken
06-16-2013, 11:40 AM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

You make a good point. When there's real money involved, there will always be a population that tries to game the system.

stiii
06-16-2013, 12:02 PM
It seems really hard to corner a market where more supply is constantly being added. You buy up a hundred copies of some rare card at 49 but then what? Raise the price to 60? You will get under cut by everyone that opens one. And this assumes any rare is that rare it is a lot harder to buy up 5,000 copies of something to corner the market.

You also have to buy up every single copy of a card so you have to be realllllly sure your price is right, if it is rubbish and only ends up worth 20 you lose a fortune.

Barkam
06-16-2013, 12:32 PM
Yeah so, this method of a market is a tried and tested for over 10 years in EVE and its not a problem at all. How anyone could think this system is worse than a normal AH is just incomprehensible. All this talk of market manipulation just doesn't happen on a scale that matters.

Edit: I should say it doesn't happen because its not possible, and even less so in a game like this where you can easily and accurately predict the probability of getting a certain card and then calculate the expected value of a pack based on the individual prices of each card. Any time prices become large enough you can just buy a ton of packs and then sell the cards on the market instantly.

Bingo. Niedar is absolutely correct. This is the main reason why someone trying to corner the market won't work. If you ever find that the AH price for the legendary to be too much, there is that price point that you can just buy your own packs straight from Cryptozoic. You also get the benefit of getting other rare cards while getting that Legendary card. Since each pack is $2 or less, the cost of in demand cards will not get out of control.

EDIT: Just to be clear, this is why no one has to worry about this game turning into the disaster that is Diablo3 AH. Believe, me I thought Hex was susceptible to it but after thinking about it is definitely not the case.

Prism
06-16-2013, 12:59 PM
Either way. Even if they just have the standard AH it'll be fine, I dont expect them to read this post. The new EVE/GW2 style AH would be leagues better. Still, anything is better than MTGO's trading haha

Zomnivore
06-16-2013, 01:52 PM
Whats the difference between GW2's and a person using a bot to do the exact same thing?

I'll tell you, its access.

Anyone has access to the gw model, but bots and programs and scripts aide the individual. I don't really care if in essence you're just empowering the few to do what you didn't want to empower the many to do.

Kietay
06-16-2013, 01:59 PM
Agreed, EVE uses the same style, and it is vastly superior to a standard AH like WoWs.

This. If they don't use at least use some modification of EVE's market like GW2 did, I will be extremely disappointed. I can't believe D3 used the old fashioned AH style. It is so cumbersome and obtuse compared to a sensible design. Even GW2's market was horrible compared to EVE's but at least it followed in the logical style of buy and sell orders.

The economy will be a lot smoother if they have a buy/sell marketplace.

Prism
06-16-2013, 02:15 PM
damn eve must be awesome because i loved gw2's AH

ossuary
06-16-2013, 02:17 PM
This. If they don't use at least use some modification of EVE's market like GW2 did, I will be extremely disappointed. I can't believe D3 used the old fashioned AH style. It is so cumbersome and obtuse compared to a sensible design. Even GW2's market was horrible compared to EVE's but at least it followed in the logical style of buy and sell orders.

The economy will be a lot smoother if they have a buy/sell marketplace.

Just as long as Hex doesn't have a totally worthless card that someone can buy a billion of at one Isk each to drive the price up, then blow them all up to collect the insurance. ;)

Banquetto
06-16-2013, 02:26 PM
This. If they don't use at least use some modification of EVE's market like GW2 did, I will be extremely disappointed. I can't believe D3 used the old fashioned AH style. It is so cumbersome and obtuse compared to a sensible design.

How would you make a buy order work in a game like D3 where every item is random and different?

Sure, would have been nice for gems and crafting mats.. but for the core AH business, it would not have worked.

With regards to cards being levelled, achieved and foiled - perhaps Hex needs something like Eve's market and contracts. So "normal" cards can be sold as commodities, but if you have a card that is particularly special (foiled and won a tournament, say), you could put it on a contract AH for an auction.

Kietay
06-16-2013, 02:42 PM
Yes you are right Banquetto. Contracts need to be used for specialized items that are foiled or have specific awards on them. They could just have separate categories for each but I imagine that would end up with 100s of different variations on each card and just be cluttered.

GreyGriffin
06-16-2013, 02:51 PM
It will be interesting to see how the TCG market handles a product that doesn't get lost in shoeboxes, chewed by children (/siblings), or otherwise diminish. Sure, you can throw your cards into the chipper/shredder of crafting, but I doubt many if any cards of real worth will be consigned to that fate.

Ramshackal
06-16-2013, 02:55 PM
This is the best post I've seen on these forums. I've never heard of this AH system but it's so similar to buy and ask prices for stocks that I love it. If it's good enough for for hardcore investors, it's good enough for an online TCG.

tautologico
06-16-2013, 03:40 PM
It will be interesting to see how the TCG market handles a product that doesn't get lost in shoeboxes, chewed by children (/siblings), or otherwise diminish. Sure, you can throw your cards into the chipper/shredder of crafting, but I doubt many if any cards of real worth will be consigned to that fate.

But remember that some people will stop playing without bothering to sell their collection, so cards will disappear.

Yoss
06-16-2013, 04:04 PM
Fully agree with the OP, and with Niedar's defense of it.


Whats the difference between GW2's and a person using a bot to do the exact same thing?

I'll tell you, its access.

Anyone has access to the gw model, but bots and programs and scripts aide the individual. I don't really care if in essence you're just empowering the few to do what you didn't want to empower the many to do.
This is a really important statement. Anyone arguing against open information systems like the OP here and like my "auctioneer" suggestion over in the UI Features thread (LINK) is just enabling predators.

Boogaloo
06-16-2013, 04:20 PM
This is the best post I've seen on these forums. I've never heard of this AH system but it's so similar to buy and ask prices for stocks that I love it. If it's good enough for for hardcore investors, it's good enough for an online TCG.

You beat me to posting the comparison I was about to post - a lot of of real world stock exchanges use essentially the same system.

There are buy and sell orders for X amount of company Y stock at a price of Z each. Buy and sell orders are matched to make trades happen, and brokerages (and their software) let the buyers and sellers see the current orders and most recent completed sales.

Easy, efficient, and fair - a great system overall.

Quasari
06-16-2013, 04:54 PM
Whats the difference between GW2's and a person using a bot to do the exact same thing?

I'll tell you, its access.

Anyone has access to the gw model, but bots and programs and scripts aide the individual. I don't really care if in essence you're just empowering the few to do what you didn't want to empower the many to do.
GW2 allows a bot to easier game the system. By scanning the items they are watching they can easily keep the top buy order theirs, which prevents others from accessing the instant sellers. Least with an auction house model its far more complex for a bot to do.

The danger of an Bid/buyout system is not in bots, but in lack of knowledge. A lot of games can be played with this when this information is harder to distinguish.

A commodities market would be nice, but only really works when every item in it is thesame. Due to every card being an entity with different trophies, xp,achievements, it would be very hard to treat this as such. I can really only see an auction block working.

Yoss
06-16-2013, 05:21 PM
GW2 allows a bot to easier game the system. By scanning the items they are watching they can easily keep the top buy order theirs, which prevents others from accessing the instant sellers. Least with an auction house model its far more complex for a bot to do.

The danger of an Bid/buyout system is not in bots, but in lack of knowledge. A lot of games can be played with this when this information is harder to distinguish.

A commodities market would be nice, but only really works when every item in it is thesame. Due to every card being an entity with different trophies, xp,achievements, it would be very hard to treat this as such. I can really only see an auction block working.
The WoW AH format is not much harder on bots than the EVE system. However, the WoW AH format is MUCH harder on human players than the EVE system. Please go back and read (or re-read) Niedar's post (and Barkam's follow-up). It is impossible for anyone to corner the market, be they bot or human. Why? Because there is an infinite supply of booster packs from CZE. Therefore, if an entity pushes the AH price too high, people (especially the hard core traders that compete with whoever's cornering the market) can just start cracking packs instead to boost the supply and undercut the monopolist.

The end result is that the monopolist only achieved a matching of booster pack value to secondary market value, which is actually a good thing, not a bad thing.

Yoss
06-16-2013, 05:46 PM
Just discovered that this is a duplicate thread:

Use the EVE buy/sell system
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24494

Quasari
06-16-2013, 05:56 PM
The WoW AH format is not much harder on bots than the EVE system. However, the WoW AH format is MUCH harder on human players than the EVE system. Please go back and read (or re-read) Niedar's post (and Barkam's follow-up). It is impossible for anyone to corner the market, be they bot or human. Why? Because there is an infinite supply of booster packs from CZE. Therefore, if an entity pushes the AH price too high, people (especially the hard core traders that compete with whoever's cornering the market) can just start cracking packs instead to boost the supply and undercut the monopolist.

The end result is that the monopolist only achieved a matching of booster pack value to secondary market value, which is actually a good thing, not a bad thing.
Im not concerned about cornering the market, most bots will just play small margins. My concern is that each card has too many factors to determine its value as a whole based on the name. Is it mint, was it in a major players deck during a key tourney, does it have its extended art, is it foiled, is it either of thelast two without having a trophy, etc... It's much more like diablo 3 where each card has much more random stats to evaluate that determine the value.

Now equiment,crafting supplies, and gold all are something thats more like a commodity because every copy is going to be 100% the same.

Yoss
06-16-2013, 06:01 PM
I believe the EVE system has a contract system to handle unique items. Someone who's actually played EVE can speak up.

BossHoss
06-16-2013, 06:02 PM
Just gonna post this by ShadowTycho again because it needs to:

1.Sell orders:
This is what you traditional auction house has as a buy it now option, but its all that it has. and this is good enough, but you can do better.


2.Buy orders:
This is a order that you put up on a card or item you would like to buy, maybe below the price poeple currently listing are willing to sell it or maybe no one has that chase rare up for selling at the moment and you would like to buy one.


3.Market trend data:
What was this card worth last week? last month? or maybe just yesterday. Find out before you sell or buy. this prevents people from simply buying all of a given card or resource and then reselling it at a higher price without people knowing.


4.Last price point:
What did the last unit of this sell for?


5.Last sell time/date:
When was that?


6.Margin:
Posting a buy order should not take the full cost of the buy order out of your account, just whatever Cryptozoic deems the margin on that buy order should be.

At a 10% margin,posting a 10 plat buy order would cause you to be down 1 plat now(not to some phantom bank, but just sitting there holding your buy order down) the other 9 would be in your wallet, until someone sells to your buy order, then you loose those and get the card you wanted at the price you wanted. This is super important(it prevents people from placing buy orders on everything without massive capital) but also lets you spread your wallet farther when buying then just...


7. An Exchange:
A way to trade gold and plat for each other using the above systems would be ideal. I am sure both gold and platinum will have plentiful sinks and fountains within the game, by having a way to exchange the two controlled by market forces people will have a way to f2p into the paid community and people in the paid community will be able to buy gold if they want.
This is good for a lot of reasons, chief among those being that you want f2p people getting into your paid community (they are the ones putting in time and building up the community) and you want to keep all the capital from the paid community in game(if you don't sell people gold people will find a way to buy it)

Quasari
06-16-2013, 06:05 PM
Again all that assumes that each indivual card of that type will be worth the same, which is a big assumption.
Maybe have an individual commidities market and the option to put up auctions.

Kietay
06-16-2013, 06:16 PM
I will say this, there can be NO margin trading. It is -extremely- easy to scam people with margin trading in a market system like this and is done so very often in EVE.

What you do is place a sell order for 5 cards at much higher than they are worth, so no one would ever normally buy them. But you also place a buy order or a contract buy for those cards at even -higher- than your sell order. You place these buy orders for say $50, so at 10% margin you only have to pay $5.

Now all you have to do is make sure your account doesnt have the full amount to cover the buy order. Some "clever" marketeer will see the buy order, and also see the sell order, and figure it doesnt hurt to buy the cards for over price if they can easily flip them instantly. They buy your cards for too much, and when trying to sell to the buy order they get a "buyer had insufficient funds" message.

Obviously you have to do this with rare cards or rare items but it is not hard to pull off. Personally, after playing EVE I dont have a problem with market scams but I know others will.

stiii
06-16-2013, 06:39 PM
Yeah I don't really see why the system would allow you to put in a buy order when you don't have the funds to support it.

Yoss
06-16-2013, 06:51 PM
The "margin" should be 100%; they might not take your money out of your account, but they earmark is as used and lock it in until your order is either executed or expires.

Malicus
06-16-2013, 06:56 PM
I am not sure your plan would work Kietay - surely the buy order would have auto resolved once a sell order below it was in place or are you suggesting an auction house with separate orders rather than a commodity exchange which would be a little weird for me, assuming someone was trying to exploit a flawed margin that would be apparent by the fact the transaction had not yet resolved.

Margin trading requires some accountability or it will be abused or simply not work. There is no point in margin trading if you only use all the plat you have and cant spend the plat elsewhere during the order but if that limitation is not in place how do you actually resolve the transaction if you have insufficient plat left in your wallet. The only option I can see is calculating the total value of platinum on your account including those in buy orders and prioritising them so that if a seller takes up your buy offer and you have insufficient open plat in your wallet it begins cancelling your lowest priority buy orders until it has satisfied the transaction.

CrownZero
06-16-2013, 07:05 PM
This looks to be a great idea. This keeps a player from frequently checking the AH. I really hate having to do that so much in Diablo 3.

I have to agree with you.

Kietay
06-16-2013, 07:28 PM
I am not sure your plan would work Kietay - surely the buy order would have auto resolved once a sell order below it was in place or are you suggesting an auction house with separate orders rather than a commodity exchange which would be a little weird for me, assuming someone was trying to exploit a flawed margin that would be apparent by the fact the transaction had not yet resolved.

Margin trading requires some accountability or it will be abused or simply not work. There is no point in margin trading if you only use all the plat you have and cant spend the plat elsewhere during the order but if that limitation is not in place how do you actually resolve the transaction if you have insufficient plat left in your wallet. The only option I can see is calculating the total value of platinum on your account including those in buy orders and prioritising them so that if a seller takes up your buy offer and you have insufficient open plat in your wallet it begins cancelling your lowest priority buy orders until it has satisfied the transaction.

You are correct that the market should auto complete the transaction if the buy order exceeds the sell order. This is why you have to do it with rare items. The two ways of getting around this are 1.) using contracts, and 2.) placing a minimum limit on quantity sold to the buy order (in EVE you can restrict anyone selling unless they sell say 10 of the item at at time)

Barkam
06-16-2013, 08:15 PM
You are correct that the market should auto complete the transaction if the buy order exceeds the sell order. This is why you have to do it with rare items. The two ways of getting around this are 1.) using contracts, and 2.) placing a minimum limit on quantity sold to the buy order (in EVE you can restrict anyone selling unless they sell say 10 of the item at at time)

The simplest way is to implement Yoss' idea. The AH holds on to gold/plat needed to fulfill the buy transaction. The AH returns the money if you cancel your buy order or it expires.

Fateanomaly
06-16-2013, 08:36 PM
In gw2 you have to pay the money first if you made the buy order. You can get it back when you cancel the order.

lamaros
06-16-2013, 08:43 PM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

You're pretty much arguing for a system that allows ignorant players to get ripped off by bots, you do realise?

lamaros
06-16-2013, 08:47 PM
GW2 allows a bot to easier game the system. By scanning the items they are watching they can easily keep the top buy order theirs, which prevents others from accessing the instant sellers. Least with an auction house model its far more complex for a bot to do.

The danger of an Bid/buyout system is not in bots, but in lack of knowledge. A lot of games can be played with this when this information is harder to distinguish.

A commodities market would be nice, but only really works when every item in it is thesame. Due to every card being an entity with different trophies, xp,achievements, it would be very hard to treat this as such. I can really only see an auction block working.

You have got it completely the wrong way around.

As other have said, if you make players have to put up the capital when they put in a buy order then you are stopping a few issues.

Also this system works towards a natural efficiency. Unless someone is incredibly rich and griefing other players then there wouldn't be anyone take advantage other than what the market decides is a reasonable margin.

And if there is someone hoarding cards and 'artificially' raising prices.... well actually they aren't. That normal price changes due to supply and demand and is just as reasonable as any other collector doing so.

Quasari
06-16-2013, 09:53 PM
You have got it completely the wrong way around.

As other have said, if you make players have to put up the capital when they put in a buy order then you are stopping a few issues.

Also this system works towards a natural efficiency. Unless someone is incredibly rich and griefing other players then there wouldn't be anyone take advantage other than what the market decides is a reasonable margin.

And if there is someone hoarding cards and 'artificially' raising prices.... well actually they aren't. That normal price changes due to supply and demand and is just as reasonable as any other collector doing so.

I gamed the gw2 trading post from day 1, I played it far more than I actually played the game. I'm not talking about control the whole market, just controlling the buy orders so that you get the most throughput on the market with your small profit margins.There were certain items that were clearly buy order botted, usually not the highest traded, but ones that provided a steady income via their margins(or their salvage profit). If you put a buy order on them that was within the threshold of profit you would instantly(within a minute) outbid. The only time your buy order would stick is if you bid over that threshold. A system like this favors those that have the time to ensure their buy orders get filled.

It also only works if all versions of whatever item are worth the same, and we dont know what collectors will value in their cards.

Khazrakh
06-16-2013, 10:21 PM
+1 for the GW2 auction house.
Best trading system I've ever seen!

Qorsair
06-16-2013, 11:26 PM
I commented on the other AH threads and want to throw the same comments in on this one too.

Please ensure we have a true market system in Hex (examples of other games including this are EVE & GW2). It's important for a healthy market to have both a buy & sell side. Games that only include the sell side (like WoW's AH), are more prone to market manipulation, and perceived lack of demand which can lead to the market for some items to wither.

Bid & ask system (like the one GW2 uses and people are praising) is the way to go. There are good reasons that's used in global financial markets.

Bossett
06-17-2013, 12:58 AM
Bid & ask system (like the one GW2 uses and people are praising) is the way to go. There are good reasons that's used in global financial markets.
This is also a good reason why:

if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.
Isn't a big deal at all - in fact, in a healthy market this sort of thing happens all the time. The trick that keeps it honest - the $49.99 buy is public, and so is the $50 sell, over time *most* things will end up priced that way, with a bid and ask price only a few cents apart.

What you'll end up with is cards priced like commodities, and rarer cards simply have less liquidity - if you have SuperRareCardA, maybe you don't know what it's worth - in a WoW model, you'd just post it for stupid high and hope. If it sells, you'll wonder why you didn't price it at stupid high+1. In a market model - you can see what other people are offering and you can either take that price straight away or post at a higher price hoping they'll raise their bid. Similarly if you see a card you think is overpriced, you can bid for it at a lower price, hoping the seller will see it and lower their asking.

Adding more information makes this all a very healthy exchange, and the prices will tend toward the price the most people think is the most fair.

Aldazar
06-17-2013, 08:27 AM
+1 for this idea - awesome structure for an AH (even if it's not technically an auction anymore but more an exchange)! =)

Also, what's with people getting all excited about the fact that all the cards aren't identical? As some people have already suggested, the exchange should have some filters to allow for selection of "unused" versions, fully leveled versions, alt art versions, etc., and that should suffice. If you think your card is "special" somehow, or you are looking for a "special" version (eg a tournament winning card or something), then don't use the exchange, buy it directly, or through a forum or something! These occurrences will, however, by definition be infrequent - if they happen very frequently, there's nothing really that special about the card, and you can just list/buy it alongside all the other cards.

The "commoditized" exchange should work for the vast majority of cards (ones that don't have something extra-special or unique about them) for the vast majority of people (people who aren't super picky about the "condition" of their cards and people who's pickiness can be defined by the exchange's filters). For the rare circumstances when this does not apply, go trade on an OTC basis. Either find the other side of the trade directly (trade chats, forums, etc) or perhaps use a broker (someone who specializes in finding/selling rare cards, probably for a cut of the sale).

The fact that the commodity exchange model will not work for every single trade ever does not mean it is not a viable, and indeed excellent, solution for 99% of trades that will be executed.

Yoss
06-17-2013, 08:39 AM
At this point, the case for a bid/ask system is about as "settled" as any forum discussion ever gets; it looks like nearly everyone would prefer a true market bid/ask rather than an auction house. Can someone who's played both EVE and GW2 comment on the differences and which one they prefer?

tecnophi
06-17-2013, 08:48 AM
Great as a system, but I think it's horrible as it applies to non-consumable items like collectable cards. Once a player has four of a card, there is very little gameplay reasons to collect more than that. To allow automated auction house running for "card sharks" (I know it's the wrong use of the term), it benefits the players of the market more than the players of the game itself which I wouldn't want to support.

Yoss
06-17-2013, 08:59 AM
To allow automated auction house running for "card sharks" (I know it's the wrong use of the term), it benefits the players of the market more than the players of the game itself
Please explain your reasoning.

downtreader
06-17-2013, 09:50 AM
You're pretty much arguing for a system that allows ignorant players to get ripped off by bots, you do realise?

not exactly sure what your meaning is, so no, i guess i don't realize. but really, an ignorant player buying/selling is going to get ripped off by someone almost by definition, yeah?


Isn't a big deal at all - in fact, in a healthy market this sort of thing happens all the time. The trick that keeps it honest - the $49.99 buy is public, and so is the $50 sell, over time *most* things will end up priced that way, with a bid and ask price only a few cents apart.

What you'll end up with is cards priced like commodities, and rarer cards simply have less liquidity - if you have SuperRareCardA, maybe you don't know what it's worth - in a WoW model, you'd just post it for stupid high and hope. If it sells, you'll wonder why you didn't price it at stupid high+1. In a market model - you can see what other people are offering and you can either take that price straight away or post at a higher price hoping they'll raise their bid. Similarly if you see a card you think is overpriced, you can bid for it at a lower price, hoping the seller will see it and lower their asking.

Adding more information makes this all a very healthy exchange, and the prices will tend toward the price the most people think is the most fair.

thank you, i can see the idea everyone seems to be advocating in this reply, and it makes sense in contrast to what i was worried about.

i haven't played eve (which most seem to think superior to gw2) so all i've got to go on is guild wars 2. in that sense, i was thinking more toward the extreme of a precursor (or later a full legendary) and the way they spiked astronomically despite the fact that most players earned gold at a much lower rate. the only way i could fathom that was that people would simply convert their cash to gold, buy an item then list it much higher assuming someone else would do it to.

but, i'm thinking it may have been a flawed analogy, since it seemed precursors were likely much rarer than anything will end up being in hex. i guess rarer cards in hex would be more akin to a rare crafting material that an exceedingly rare drop.

Yoss
06-17-2013, 10:24 AM
Keep in mind that prices will be limited by the value of buying packs from the infinite CZE supply at $2 per pack. If a particular card ever made it to some retarded value like $1,000,000 (queue Austin Powers sound bite), you can be sure that people would start cracking packs like crazy to try to find that card to re-sell, which then boosts supply and brings the price back down to the booster value.

An open information efficient market is better for most purposes, not least of which is protecting the average player.

tecnophi
06-17-2013, 11:09 AM
Please explain your reasoning.

The overall trend of demand will drop, players playing the game would collect 4 copies. The cards are considered non-consumables, and once the demand is fulfilled that source of demand is gone. After the initial market flooding related to the amount of new boosters (like in a new set), the market should settle as demand side is satisfied and individual buyers disappear from that market.

Setting "buy at" and "sell at" conditions are meant to work well with highly fluctuating systems where supply and demand changes rapidly. With a finite demand and upward trending supply, I can only see with an automated system promoting easy manipulation. The late comers and newer players will be at the mercy of the big market players.

Besides, I don't think it's in CZE's policy to develop such a system though, providing such a system is definitely being hands on the secondary market in my opinion.

Prism
06-17-2013, 12:48 PM
Great as a system, but I think it's horrible as it applies to non-consumable items like collectable cards. Once a player has four of a card, there is very little gameplay reasons to collect more than that. To allow automated auction house running for "card sharks" (I know it's the wrong use of the term), it benefits the players of the market more than the players of the game itself which I wouldn't want to support.

Card sharks buy/trade for $30 cards and give a $2 card in exchange. This would never happen if this system was in place. The word you're looking for is an investor/speculator/trader. If people are willing to put effort in doing fair but smart trades/bids/etc they should be able to make a profit.

I saw that 'ratchet bomb' in magic the gathering was being reprinted an hour after the announcement. I went to a couple sites and bought 60 of them for $1.5 each. Now they're $4 and probably going to go higher. Are players not supposed to do this? In my opinion, TCGs are called TRADING card games for a reason and the financial aspect of playing a little baby stock market is a big pull for lots of people

nicosharp
06-17-2013, 12:50 PM
I really liked what GW2 did with their economy/auction house/marketplace. +1 to that concept Prism.

Prism
06-17-2013, 12:50 PM
The overall trend of demand will drop, players playing the game would collect 4 copies. The cards are considered non-consumables, and once the demand is fulfilled that source of demand is gone. After the initial market flooding related to the amount of new boosters (like in a new set), the market should settle as demand side is satisfied and individual buyers disappear from that market.

Setting "buy at" and "sell at" conditions are meant to work well with highly fluctuating systems where supply and demand changes rapidly. With a finite demand and upward trending supply, I can only see with an automated system promoting easy manipulation. The late comers and newer players will be at the mercy of the big market players.

Besides, I don't think it's in CZE's policy to develop such a system though, providing such a system is definitely being hands on the secondary market in my opinion.

Also, there will be new players every day in this game that will need to get all of the cards. Not everyone will be able to afford a playset of all the cards. In magic, I tend to make one fully optimized deck and then trade it off when I want to make something new

And thanks to all that like my idea (although it isn't really my idea, just the notion that a more advanced auction house should exist in this game. It might not have occurred to Crypto that better AH systems than WoW exist)

stiii
06-17-2013, 01:20 PM
The overall trend of demand will drop, players playing the game would collect 4 copies. The cards are considered non-consumables, and once the demand is fulfilled that source of demand is gone. After the initial market flooding related to the amount of new boosters (like in a new set), the market should settle as demand side is satisfied and individual buyers disappear from that market.

Setting "buy at" and "sell at" conditions are meant to work well with highly fluctuating systems where supply and demand changes rapidly. With a finite demand and upward trending supply, I can only see with an automated system promoting easy manipulation. The late comers and newer players will be at the mercy of the big market players.

Besides, I don't think it's in CZE's policy to develop such a system though, providing such a system is definitely being hands on the secondary market in my opinion.

I don't really how how these big market seller would abuse the system. Once players have 4 of a card the demand drops off but the supply continues to increase. Over time prices would go down so I don't see how this can hurt new players.

Zophie
06-17-2013, 03:07 PM
First off, I love the GW2/EVE Buy/Sell order system. It should work very well for commodities like equipments and gems, however I'm concerned it won't fit very well with the unique nature the cards themselves. Brand new cards would be easy to search for, but if they've been played at all they will likely have XP/Achievements/Stats accumulated on them, and Buy orders in particular could be very inefficient unless CZE comes up with a smart way to handle this.

For example, are people going to put buy orders up for just the card name, or also the level of the card? Maybe this won't be a big deal with the (hopefully) large numbers of people playing and using the market, but I'm worried that the system might get too complex and confusing for it's own good.

ossuary
06-17-2013, 03:29 PM
First off, I love the GW2/EVE Buy/Sell order system. It should work very well for commodities like equipments and gems, however I'm concerned it won't fit very well with the unique nature the cards themselves. Brand new cards would be easy to search for, but if they've been played at all they will likely have XP/Achievements/Stats accumulated on them, and Buy orders in particular could be very inefficient unless CZE comes up with a smart way to handle this.

For example, are people going to put buy orders up for just the card name, or also the level of the card? Maybe this won't be a big deal with the (hopefully) large numbers of people playing and using the market, but I'm worried that the system might get too complex and confusing for it's own good.

This system could still support "unique" cards, they would just need to have search features that allow you to include/exclude the features you care about. Want an unleveled card? Checkmark pristine on your order page. Looking for a card that's been used in a winning tournament deck? Check off to find trophied cards. Don't give a crap and just want any copy of the card right now? Leave all the checkmarks blank.

The only REAL problem with that sort of system is that a person who didn't care could get a card that others think is "more valuable" either for being pristine or for being leveled up, but that's really the seller's problem for not listing it at a higher price.

maniza
06-17-2013, 04:44 PM
I like gw2 but for the ah i think that the wow model is more fitting for this game

sayuu
06-17-2013, 06:36 PM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

What is to stop someone else from listing at $49.99 and getting the card instead of you because the system remembers post times and fills the one made first. . .

. . .Eventually someone else will beat you at the buyout and sell stage. . .

Qorsair
06-17-2013, 06:47 PM
I like gw2 but for the ah i think that the wow model is more fitting for this game

The side of me that wants to make ridiculous amounts of money cornering card markets on the AH agrees with you.

maniza
06-17-2013, 07:24 PM
Also some kind of trade mode would be nice

Aldazar
06-17-2013, 10:10 PM
The overall trend of demand will drop, players playing the game would collect 4 copies. The cards are considered non-consumables, and once the demand is fulfilled that source of demand is gone. After the initial market flooding related to the amount of new boosters (like in a new set), the market should settle as demand side is satisfied and individual buyers disappear from that market.

Setting "buy at" and "sell at" conditions are meant to work well with highly fluctuating systems where supply and demand changes rapidly. With a finite demand and upward trending supply, I can only see with an automated system promoting easy manipulation. The late comers and newer players will be at the mercy of the big market players.

Besides, I don't think it's in CZE's policy to develop such a system though, providing such a system is definitely being hands on the secondary market in my opinion.

First of all, what about new players joining the game and wanting to build their decks? What about existing players getting bored of their current decks and wanting to switch into a new style? Or just wanting to tweak their decks, for that matter? Your assertion that the market will eventually reach a point where there is rapidly increasing supply and no increase in demand doesn't seem to hold water. Actually, even if it did - if everyone had all the cards they wanted - fewer people would open boosters and thus supply would slow down too... Moreover, as each expansion is released, it will throw the markets into turmoil, making some cards more valuable and some less as new synergies and strategies are developed and older ones fall out of fashion.

Even if you were right though, how does increasing supply and stagnant demand make it difficult for new players? Intuitively, I would see this driving prices down, which is actually more friendly for new players as the cost to enter is lower...

With regards to market manipulation, as has been stated many times before, if you ("you" being the unnamed market manipulator) try to corner the market and increase prices, people will start opening boosters and listing just barely lower than you. If you keep buying it up to keep the prices high, you will have to invest ever increasing amounts of capital to keep going, and eventually the market will crash and you will lose a ton of money. Also/alternatively, people will just trade off-market to avoid paying your extortionate prices, meanwhile your capital is all locked up in a bunch of worthless cards you accumulated trying to screw the market. Have fun with that!

Aldazar
06-17-2013, 10:18 PM
while i'll admit i'm not one to play the auction house, this style seems to cater directly to those who want to control the market. and in my experience in guild wars 2, that's exactly what happened.

the price of rare items was overly (perhaps artificially) inflated once players had a sufficient bundle of cash to play with. the buy orders made this possible -- if you can corner the market on a legendary card, you list it for $50 and set a buy order at $49.99. this automates the process of rebuying, ensuring that you and only you get every card cheaper than your set price of $50. then you relist at the same $50 price.

as players had larger and larger bankrolls, this kept happening in plateaus. yes, eventually the market reaches a limit that no one will pay. and i understand that that is how the market works. but the buy price/quantity ruins any hope the average player has of securing a "good deal" on a rare card, because every price below a certain threshold is automatically snapped up. warcraft forced you to actually watch the auction house or worse, use bots, to try to snatch up deals. guild wars quickly and irrevocably turned it into a true sellers market.

this would be one thing if currency were controlled via an earnings curve, but when any player can essentially "print their own money" via purchasing platinum it ensures that the biggest investor can corner and control the market for everyone.

and since there is really only one source to buy cards legitimately, i'd be wary of this kind of system.

You also assume that there is no way to trade off the exchange. If you do that and people notice your prices are unreasonable, people will just start to trade in forums, with their friends and guilds, etc. Meanwhile, you are investing ever more capital in buying up stock and no one is buying. So unless you are willing to leave your capital stuck in your inventory, you will have to lower the price to sell off your inventory eventually.

Also, if I noticed someone doing that - in your example at the $50 area, and let's say the "fair" value of the card is actually $25, I'd start gathering friends and people who don't like evil market manipulators... We'd buy the cards off-market for, say, $25 or $26, or even $30. Matter of fact, we could go as high as $49, because we know you're dumb enough to buy the card automatically at $49.99 despite the fact that it's only worth $25. We'd then hit your bid at $49.99 for as many cards as you have ordered (presumably a large number to make sure you keep the market cornered) and then laugh all the way to the bank as you buy a ton of cards for twice what they're worth and no one wants to buy them for you... And even if one or two people do buy them because they didn't realize you're over-charging, your profit will be a grand total of 1 cent per card. Woohoo!

Aldazar
06-17-2013, 10:19 PM
I like the idea, but the one thing this system doesn't take into account is the "condition" of the card - some people are going to care about whether or not the card has been played. Some people will just want the card and not care, but others will specifically be looking for a card that is already fully leveled up (or a pristine one that they can level themselves).

Also, this system doesn't take into account that famous tournament player who destroyed the competition with a brand new deck idea nobody ever saw before, and is now auctioning off the combo cards from the deck, showing his trophy for winning the big game - those cards would be even more collectible (Cory has talked about this kind of thing in some of the videos). How do you differentiate these types of scenarios in your AH structure?

If you want one of these "unique" cards, don't buy it on the exchange - buy it off-market, directly from the owner or via a broker. For the other 99.9% of trades, the exchange will do just fine.

Malicus
06-18-2013, 12:42 AM
You also assume that there is no way to trade off the exchange. If you do that and people notice your prices are unreasonable, people will just start to trade in forums, with their friends and guilds, etc. Meanwhile, you are investing ever more capital in buying up stock and no one is buying. So unless you are willing to leave your capital stuck in your inventory, you will have to lower the price to sell off your inventory eventually.

Also, if I noticed someone doing that - in your example at the $50 area, and let's say the "fair" value of the card is actually $25, I'd start gathering friends and people who don't like evil market manipulators... We'd buy the cards off-market for, say, $25 or $26, or even $30. Matter of fact, we could go as high as $49, because we know you're dumb enough to buy the card automatically at $49.99 despite the fact that it's only worth $25. We'd then hit your bid at $49.99 for as many cards as you have ordered (presumably a large number to make sure you keep the market cornered) and then laugh all the way to the bank as you buy a ton of cards for twice what they're worth and no one wants to buy them for you... And even if one or two people do buy them because they didn't realize you're over-charging, your profit will be a grand total of 1 cent per card. Woohoo!

I understand your intent but you are definitely the villain in this scenario having ripped off a bunch if uninformed sellers.

To attain our altruistic goal you need to set up a consistent off market trade for the card at the fair price.

Or buy off market for close to the listed buy price if you want to flood him with more cards than is reasonable for him to buy, though he now has an even stronger monopolisation of the card and would likely raise prices. He would be stupid to have ever listed more buy orders than he was comfortable accepting.

Zomnivore
06-18-2013, 01:32 AM
Still don't see a problem with the gw2 system from people's arguments. Sounds like a decent system thats about as fair as any other.

Bots will still exist in every system but in this one, their affect doesn't seem to be much more then any committed trader because of how accessible the system is.

w/e more important things to think about...like how I'm going to paint this squig.

Bossett
06-18-2013, 02:02 AM
I think there's probably room for 2 markets tbh - a Market and an Auction House, if you will.

The Market should work like a commodity market - buy and sell prices posted, with maybe 3 classes 'mint' (never played), 'near mint' (less than some X XP) and 'foil' (fully levelled) and trophies are ignored. This way you can place a buy order for 'near mint' cards at a particular price, or a bunch of 'unclassed' cards, or whatever. Sellers can choose to either fill orders or post their own 'for sale' order.

The Auction House works a bit like the WoW auction house and is for those cards that are so rare as to have no natural market. Those are cards with trophies, very rare cards that don't often leave collections, etc.

You can probably combine the two - let Market orders be super-specific, but it make sense to envision it as two separate 'markets' even if they're served by one interface.

The only other thing we need to make it all work is to show some stats on the card view in the collection: 'best price available for this card' (which works out the most specific criteria your card meets and show current 'buy' prices), 'best price last 90 days', 'best price ever', etc.

(I also reckon they should allow trade bots if they don't get that advanced tho - that you can control via an API - that way if there's demand for the complexity, there's an in-game way to facilitate if they don't want to include it.)

downtreader
06-18-2013, 09:04 AM
What is to stop someone else from listing at $49.99 and getting the card instead of you because the system remembers post times and fills the one made first. . .

. . .Eventually someone else will beat you at the buyout and sell stage. . .

true, but if people start buying the card at $49.99, the original manipulator has successfully raised the value of the card above what it originally was.

this is what happened in gw2 with precursor weapons. the first few were 120-200g, then when they were gone or when someone had bought them all they jumped up to 500g. when anyone who got one via a drop they wanted to sell, it went up at 500g.

the difference here is that the only semi-reliable way to get one was by dumping items into the mystic forge hoping for a minuscule chance to get a precursor. i'm realizing this is a drastically different scenario over opening packs containing cards matching a physical print run digitally.

Niedar
06-18-2013, 10:37 AM
true, but if people start buying the card at $49.99, the original manipulator has successfully raised the value of the card above what it originally was.

this is what happened in gw2 with precursor weapons. the first few were 120-200g, then when they were gone or when someone had bought them all they jumped up to 500g. when anyone who got one via a drop they wanted to sell, it went up at 500g.

the difference here is that the only semi-reliable way to get one was by dumping items into the mystic forge hoping for a minuscule chance to get a precursor. i'm realizing this is a drastically different scenario over opening packs containing cards matching a physical print run digitally.


The first few were 120-200g? So what you are basically saying is that the price wasn't known at the time and people listed them for less than they were worth when they first got them and then the price equalized to what it was truly worth.

ossuary
06-18-2013, 11:25 AM
Let the market dictate the price. End of story. If people can successfully buy low and sell high, good for them. Every transaction, CZE gets a cut (or rather, a percent of gold leaves the economy). If an individual is saavy enough to profit from this, it's nobody's place to stop them. The market will still ultimately dictate the acceptable price.

maniza
06-18-2013, 11:30 AM
Still don't see a problem with the gw2 system from people's arguments. Sounds like a decent system thats about as fair as any other.

Bots will still exist in every system but in this one, their affect doesn't seem to be much more then any committed trader because of how accessible the system is.

w/e more important things to think about...like how I'm going to paint this squig.
The thing is that the in the gw2 ah all items are thesame and in hex all cards have a set of stats that make them diferent from each other. If they sort that out the gw2 ah is a good option. I still like wow ah better for this game

Yoss
06-18-2013, 03:31 PM
The overall trend of demand will drop, players playing the game would collect 4 copies. The cards are considered non-consumables, and once the demand is fulfilled that source of demand is gone. After the initial market flooding related to the amount of new boosters (like in a new set), the market should settle as demand side is satisfied and individual buyers disappear from that market.I agree.


Setting "buy at" and "sell at" conditions are meant to work well with highly fluctuating systems where supply and demand changes rapidly. With a finite demand and upward trending supply, I can only see with an automated system promoting easy manipulation. The late comers and newer players will be at the mercy of the big market players.This is where you lose me. If "big market players" drive the price up beyond the true market value, then the late comers and newer players can just buy booster packs instead. More likely than that even is that one of the other "big players" will start cracking boosters to undercut the one who's driving prices up. The end result is that no single commodity (card) can go above the infinite supply provided by CZE through $2 boosters.


Besides, I don't think it's in CZE's policy to develop such a system though, providing such a system is definitely being hands on the secondary market in my opinion.If creating a bid/ask system is "hands on" then so is a regular auction house, so you defeat your own argument. CZE wants to enable the secondary market as best they can. Their "hands off" policy is just saying they don't want to fix prices.


First off, I love the GW2/EVE Buy/Sell order system. It should work very well for commodities like equipments and gems, however I'm concerned it won't fit very well with the unique nature the cards themselves. Brand new cards would be easy to search for, but if they've been played at all they will likely have XP/Achievements/Stats accumulated on them, and Buy orders in particular could be very inefficient unless CZE comes up with a smart way to handle this.

For example, are people going to put buy orders up for just the card name, or also the level of the card? Maybe this won't be a big deal with the (hopefully) large numbers of people playing and using the market, but I'm worried that the system might get too complex and confusing for it's own good.
This is quite simple to handle, actually. By default, if you list a card it is treated as a commodity with no special features (XP, achievements, etc are ignored). If you think your card attributes make your card worth more, then you have the option to list it as a contract item (unique item, listed like a traditional auction house), which would list separately from the bid/ask area of the AH.


Also some kind of trade mode would be nice
Yes, they've already said you can do direct trading between players.


The thing is that the in the gw2 ah all items are thesame and in hex all cards have a set of stats that make them diferent from each other. If they sort that out the gw2 ah is a good option. I still like wow ah better for this game
For the vast majority of transactions, the double-back stats will be a "don't care" on the part of the buyer. Therefore, a commodity system will work just fine. For those infrequent cases when a card actually is special, they just need an option to list as a traditional auction.

Kietay
06-18-2013, 09:11 PM
Yoss knows his stuff!

maniza
06-18-2013, 09:59 PM
By trade mode i mean i list the cards that i want to trade and what cards i want in exchange, the player that puts those cards in gets my cards in exchange. Something along those lines.

downtreader
06-19-2013, 05:21 AM
The first few were 120-200g? So what you are basically saying is that the price wasn't known at the time and people listed them for less than they were worth when they first got them and then the price equalized to what it was truly worth.

aye, i get that. but when you consider the "stable" price (1000g-ish), it translates to around $833 depending on the current transfer rate for gems. few can get 1000g purely in-game (after one stingy playthrough you might have 6g, and farming yields a possibility of 5g/day depending on dedication) so you'd need to supplement. is a part of a legendary items really worth $833? maybe, but it seems likely that a fair amount of these went to speculators who artificially raised the price. i don't really have reliable data on how many bought them to use them, or bought them to relist.

but this brings me back to the point that an auction house with these protocols plus the optional real money infusion sets two standards: one ingame currency (gold) and one real money (platinum). and it's hard to have a stable economy that way. going back to my original post about people being able to "print money" essentially trivializes ingame currency, but i guess that's sort of the point from CZEs perspective.

but, my lack of understanding of the merits of the gw2 auction house everyone seems to want likely stems from a poor item comparison (attainability and rarity), and possibly that each item in guild wars does not have the same intrinsic value as a digital trading card (where a good card can earn you more income if used right in tournaments and such).

i guess it really comes down to me trying to see a better system than the one that mirrors reality. i'll sit back and see how it all plays out, i guess.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 08:47 AM
By trade mode i mean i list the cards that i want to trade and what cards i want in exchange, the player that puts those cards in gets my cards in exchange. Something along those lines.
Interesting idea, but the AH takes care of that, right? For example, you want to trade 4 Spectral Lotus for 1 Vampire King. You place a Sell Order for 4 Spectral Lotus at the value of 1 Vampire King, and also a Buy Order for 1 Vampire King at that same price. Done! (By the way, I'm not saying 4 SL equals 1 VK. It's just an example.)

odjn
06-19-2013, 11:10 AM
it seems likely that a fair amount of these went to speculators who artificially raised the price...

but this brings me back to the point that an auction house with these protocols plus the optional real money infusion sets two standards: one ingame currency (gold) and one real money (platinum). and it's hard to have a stable economy that way. going back to my original post about people being able to "print money" essentially trivializes ingame currency, but i guess that's sort of the point from CZEs perspective.

but, my lack of understanding of the merits of the gw2 auction house everyone seems to want likely stems from a poor item comparison (attainability and rarity), and possibly that each item in guild wars does not have the same intrinsic value as a digital trading card (where a good card can earn you more income if used right in tournaments and such)....



While I can get on board about being concerned about how prices could be artificially inflated by profiteers, I don't see it as a real issue for the reasons detailed by other posters including the ability to buy packs and trade with other players along with the fact that price will, for the most part, reflect demand. When you wrote about the gold vs. platinum being an issue as these two will together make an unstable market place, you did a disservice to bartering. Really, the two big elements affecting the market are product and currency. It's the relationship that they have with one another that will set prices. Also, I take issue with this continued statement about platinum being in essence "print money." It's still based on one's actual money and as such demands time (just in RL on the job) as opposed to in-game. Either way, time is the currency, and it is limited. Furthermore, if one form of time (say RL) is outdistanced in value by the other (i.e. in-game), the market will balance for this and the trade prices will show.

I'm a fan of the OP's suggestion for no other reason than that it does a better job of evening the market playing field by giving all players tools to better search for and buy product to expand their gaming experience. I think the suggestion will aid players who want to play the game itself as opposed to players who prefer to play the market. In the end, all people need to learn that they should be educated when spending their resources, and hopefully with tools like a GW2 based AH, that lesson, if it has to come, will not be as costly as it would be without it (say with a WoW based AH).

As far as intrinsic value, I'm not sure I understand. I think you may be alluding to the idea that cards in Hex will have a higher variability in costs than the items and weapons in GW2. Whether true or not, I don't see how this idea has any merit for the discussion.

stiii
06-19-2013, 12:51 PM
If this GW2 item isn't worth 1000G who is buying it?

wildcard
06-23-2013, 09:49 PM
The EVE market interface is insane. IN.SANE. It's by far the closest thing you'll find to a real market in a game. Being a station trader is a completely viable way to play your entire career in EVE if that's your thing. At it's heart it's really just buy/sell orders as have been discussed here, but in EVE the market has a spatial element to it as well that would not apply here - and that is what catapults it beyond GW2. If you dock at station X and put in a sell order for product you brought with you, the product doesn't just magically transport to another station when someone there buys it. So it adds this amazingly complex element to the game's market, with stations having greater or lesser amounts of activity based on what parts of the galaxy they're located near, there are faction affiliations with sales taxes and varying broker fees, and pricing information includes regional averages (is it worth traveling through that shady part of the galaxy to get a better deal? In fact, pirates will set up too-good-to-be-true prices just to lure suckers into a trap). You have to physically transport goods in vulnerable freighters with an armed escort, and if you have the resources to do that, you can contract yourself out to market traders who value such services. What's more, developing your character's trading skills (instead of the various combat skills) control how many orders they can have open, and how many stations away their sell orders are visible (Marketing), etc. So you can build your character to be a capitalist that couldn't fly a combat ship to save his/her life, and make a bloody fortune doing it.

Just look at the in-game UI for "browsing the AH" in EVE -- http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/3066/3341/market_interface_ui.jpg

Third party sites use the API for market summaries -- http://www.eve-markets.net/summary

It's so advanced they hired an economist to write market reports for a few years -- http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf [PDF]

Please CZE, give your market/AH system some love!

Yoss
06-23-2013, 10:21 PM
Hmm, that might be a bit over the top for Hex, especially since the PvP people just wanna offload their stuff, not interact with a pseudo-PvE logistics thingy. I've actually never played GW2 or EVE, but the bid/ask system just makes sense for running a market.

wildcard
06-23-2013, 10:28 PM
Of course, I was just geeking out on EVE there for a minute. All of the spatial locality would have no part in Hex, at all. The user interface (after clicking Advanced>>) is the price history, complete with volume, short and long term moving average, the Donchian channel (spread between high and low), and the median trade price for the day. With a bid/ask system, you've got a very full featured and effective market. I'm also in favor of a variety of Hex read-only APIs to facilitate third party systems cropping up.

AstaSyneri
06-25-2013, 01:51 AM
Ah, that reminds me to log in tonight - my skill queue is running out ;-).

Yes, the EVE market is a great example as I tend to spend my time in EVE producing stuff and selling it on the market (that way my account is active even though I am not, the only way I can really play an MMO).

The spacial locality is very important there, though, as it destroys the perfect transparency and thereby opens up opportunities (along with players mistyping their prices :( ).

I am not sure how to prevent players from trying to corner the market when there is only one "station"... hmm.

Yoss
06-25-2013, 10:43 AM
I am not sure how to prevent players from trying to corner the market when there is only one "station"... hmm.
We covered this earlier in the thread. Since there's an infinite supply of cards from CZE at $2 per pack, that sets a limit on prices. Therefore, the worst that can happen if someone gets a monopoly is to force card prices to exactly match the booster-equivalent-value of each card.

Prism
06-25-2013, 10:51 AM
goddamn... eve sounds awesome... i tried it once for like 10 mins and couldnt figure any shit out, maybe one of these days ill try again

ossuary
06-25-2013, 11:07 AM
It's a very deep game, but that also makes it incredibly hard to break into as a newbie, especially if you've never played anything like it before. Some guilds specialize in helping out new players, though, to try to make the startup easier (and get themselves cheap mining labour ;)). You could try looking / asking around for one of them, if you decide to try it again.

Helbendt
06-25-2013, 03:01 PM
One very important thing to note about EVE, and its market, is that EVE's market charges broker's fees. This forces a minimum gap(see note 1) between any given participant's sell offers and his buy asks. The existence of that gap makes small undercuts feasible, preventing things like the theoretical "$5 sell order, $4.99 buy order" pricefixer from dominating the market.

"Booster equivalent value" does no such thing - no matter how many packs you buy looking for that one chase ultrarare, it's STILL no guarantee. A perfectly normal coin can come up heads any number of times in a row without trick coin-flipping, even as the odds of such a thing becomes vanishingly unlikely.

There is also one very important thing to NOT take from EVE's market. It has a notable flaw in the system where your purchase is automatically taken from the order with the lowest price available, with any extra you pay becoming (essentially) a tip to that lowest-priced-order seller, even if you specifically attempt to buy from the order that costs 0.01 more because you have a personal dislike for 0.01 undercutters. If worries exist about people simply not seeing the cheapest offer, that's what sorting by price is for.

Note 1: While it doesn't really FORCE a minimum gap, it makes stunts like "sell a gorillion of Thing X at some price Y, set a buy order at price Y-0.01" not be profitable anymore - the guy who's doing that is now losing money on the proposition thanks to broker's fees.

AstaSyneri
06-26-2013, 12:25 AM
There is also one very important thing to NOT take from EVE's market. It has a notable flaw in the system where your purchase is automatically taken from the order with the lowest price available, with any extra you pay becoming (essentially) a tip to that lowest-priced-order seller, even if you specifically attempt to buy from the order that costs 0.01 more because you have a personal dislike for 0.01 undercutters. If worries exist about people simply not seeing the cheapest offer, that's what sorting by price is for.

So true - I learned that the hard way.

If you start EVE, the first thing you want to find is a corporation (guild) of people to share the game with. If you don't find that, you are likely going to quit the game quickly (as I did a few years ago - now I am enjoying it, because I am playing with very friendly people).

But we are likely derailing the topic, so I'll stop myself here ;-).