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Yoss
06-19-2013, 09:13 AM
I've never really understood why this subject is so controversial. For the vast majority of us, game playing is a huge timesink. If we get the chance to actually make a few dollars off it once in a blue moon, how can you possibly think that's a problem?

More broadly, if something (anything) is of more value to a buyer than it is to its owner, than it should be sold to the person who values it more. This is the fundamental tenet of utility maximization. I hope we all accept that people shouldn't be forced to sell and people shouldn't be forced to buy. Well the same logic that supports that (correct) position equally supports this one: people shouldn't be forced to hold things instead of selling, and people shouldn't be prohibited from buying. Inevitably, a prohibition against the selling of something that has value creates black markets, creates arbitrary distinctions between what you can and can't do or sell, creates shams and deceit to get around the rules.

Does a TOS say that items or accounts can't be sold? That's great, but who cares? How does that speak to the question of whether players should be allowed to decide the value he puts on his virtual labors? The question of should selling be allowed can't be decided by an examination of whether it's allowed. I mean, duh. That would be like in the 60s looking to discrimination and saying, Should this exist? And then looking at the law in Alabama and seeing that it's legal, and saying Now we know the answer is Yes it should.

I would support a change that lets you trade ANYTHING in the game. With mercs and champions it would be easy to set up. For less obvious things you could just tokenize them, similar to the Spectral Lotus Garden. For example, if you have Pro Player drafts, make it into a token that you can trade. If you have the token in your inventory, then you have the Pro Player bonus. Similarly, if you have the DC or RL bonus, it could be a token. Same with the Collector Alternate Art income, Producer set collection, etc.

To prevent abuse, like guilds sharing the RL bonus by passing it around, there would be a 1 month cooldown after every trade of these special items.

Tokens of a particular type would not stack unless CZE wants them too. (Rumor is that Pro Player will stack. DC and RL should not.)

No worries about account hacking; they can just roll back the transactions.

Update: nearlysober has pointed out that CZE already promised that the $250+ rewards would not be tradeable, so that's out. That leaves sleeves and mercs. Most people seem fine with letting sleeves be account bound. Mercs, not so much. If Mercs are allowed to go on the AH (I would prefer this), then some have suggested that the XP be reset when they change hands.

cavench
06-19-2013, 09:15 AM
First thought, bad idea!
Second thought, hrmm... might work.

I'm waiting for my third thought.

Brumby66
06-19-2013, 09:19 AM
The upside to certain things not being tradable is that if an account is hacked these things will remain. An account can be retrieved after being hacked, but the only things that will be left are nontradable items.

DisOrd3r
06-19-2013, 09:28 AM
Hm...I would say yes and no.

The bonuses like Pro-player draft and so on should not be able to be traded.
As that could be misused/abused

Mercs I can see being traded.

Kathy
06-19-2013, 09:39 AM
I like the idea, but that's because I'm a pro-player who may some day want to cash out.

However, I suspect that part of the equation of offering the ProP in the first place was the, almost certainly correct, assumption that many ProPs will miss drafts in a given week and/or drop out entirely. The same reason the free draft is not forever, it's for your natural life--they're hedging their bets against a zombie apocalypse or vampiric conversion or other extended paranormal perpetuation.

cavench
06-19-2013, 09:48 AM
My third thought just arrived. What would prevent friends and guildmates to share Raid Leader bonus if it is tokenized?

Shadowelf
06-19-2013, 09:50 AM
As i replied to the other thread i don't think its a good idea; what would happen if ppl start sharing those tokens with friends or guildies ?

Yoss
06-19-2013, 09:53 AM
The upside to certain things not being tradable is that if an account is hacked these things will remain. An account can be retrieved after being hacked, but the only things that will be left are nontradable items.
They have roll-back ability, so I'm not sure what the problem is. If you get hacked, they can just reset back your stuff, undoing all activity.


The bonuses like Pro-player draft and so on should not be able to be traded.
As that could be misused/abused
Abused how? Things that do not stack (multiple Pro-Players) would still not stack. Anything else you're worried about?


My third thought just arrived. What would prevent friends and guildmates to share Raid Leader bonus if it is tokenized?
Hmm. I suppose that's true. Easily fixed though. Trading any of these special things would have a cooldown of 1 month. Fixed?

I'll update the OP.

facade
06-19-2013, 09:53 AM
I think I am with those that say the actual kickstarter awards should not be tradeable. These benefits were given as a thank you to those who donated money to the kickstarter. A kickstarter donation is always supposed to be about supporting the game, not about being able to maximize the amount of value you can obtain... (which CZE certainly made difficult since each tier conferred value beyond each donation price). Making the benefits tradeable makes it seem like the kickstarter was a means of selling a service and not about supporting the game in its final stages of development.

Regarding the mercenaries and other non-cards and equipment earned in game, I am ambivalent about. There are valid arguments both for and against being able to trade them.

DisOrd3r
06-19-2013, 09:56 AM
Well Yoss, Pro Player do stack ;)

Yoss
06-19-2013, 09:58 AM
If I get a cute teddy bear for donating to cancer research, should I be required to never give it away?


Well Yoss, Pro Player do stack ;)
OK, then the tokens would stack.

cavench
06-19-2013, 10:02 AM
Hmm. I suppose that's true. Easily fixed though. Trading any of these special things would have a cooldown of 1 month. Fixed?


Even if all the technicalities are worked out, it's not to CZE's best interest to go this route (ie: to support Pro Player bonus even after the original backer has retired.)

It's safe to say CZE is already plenty generous with the KS rewards. Imo it's too much to ask if there is a resell value on top of what KS'er already received.

jai151
06-19-2013, 10:05 AM
This is one of those ideas that I see and the Spidey-sense starts tingling. I don't like it, but I can't necessarily put into words why.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 10:07 AM
Even if all the technicalities are worked out, it's not to CZE's best interest to go this route (ie: to support Pro Player bonus even after the original backer has retired.)
Are you sure it's not in their best interest? A player with a Pro Player token is much more likely to stick around and support the community. Granted, it "costs" CZE maybe $5 per week to have the token in use, but you have to weigh that against the advertising and community boost that it generates. Especially if they prevent stacking, it would give a nice 2000 player core that is always there to fill your tournament queue.

jai151
06-19-2013, 10:13 AM
Are you sure it's not in their best interest? A player with a Pro Player token is much more likely to stick around and support the community. Granted, it "costs" CZE maybe $5 per week to have the token in use, but you have to weigh that against the advertising and community boost that it generates. Especially if they prevent stacking, it would give a nice 2000 player core that is always there to fill your tournament queue.

Actually, by removing the tie to the account, you're giving that pro player the option to "cash out" at any time. That would hurt the retention quality of it more than help.

Diesbudt
06-19-2013, 10:15 AM
This is one of those ideas that I see and the Spidey-sense starts tingling. I don't like it, but I can't necessarily put into words why.

Bingo!

Killer.Mutant
06-19-2013, 10:21 AM
It's doesn't have to be all or nothing. "Account bonuses" or "perks" like pro player free drafting could be account specific, but other items which are not currently tradeable like mercs could become tradeable. Prior to this thread I would have assumed mercs were tradeable since they're cards (or at least in the kickstarter they were described as cards).

BossHoss
06-19-2013, 10:24 AM
If I get a cute teddy bear for donating to cancer research, should I be required to never give it away?

Think of all KS items that you can trade as that cute teddy bear and all perks that cannot be traded as the warm and fuzzy feeling for helping out...

jai151
06-19-2013, 10:26 AM
It's doesn't have to be all or nothing. "Account bonuses" or "perks" like pro player free drafting could be account specific, but other items which are not currently tradeable like mercs could become tradeable. Prior to this thread I would have assumed mercs were tradeable since they're cards (or at least in the kickstarter they were described as cards).

Actually, from what I understand Mercs are unlocked as you play through the PvE campaign. So they aren't cards so much as account flags.

facade
06-19-2013, 10:38 AM
If I get a cute teddy bear for donating to cancer research, should I be required to never give it away?


No... but using your analogy: did you donate to cancer research so you can profit by selling teddy bears or so you can support the cause of curing cancer?

My argument is that I would have still donate $250 to CZE without the perks because HEX looks to be a great game. I am not so magnanimous that I will give away my tier rewards, but I recognize them for what they are: a thank you note.

As such, that's why I think the tier rewards shouldn't be able to be traded.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 10:45 AM
Trading fully leveled Heroes and Mercenaries? Special buffs or account bonuses.
It gives KS backers even more value than they already have, as they can piece-meal their entire account for profit, while still keeping their account.

I don't know. It sounds cool, and I wish we could have it for a few things, but I am okay either way. It does seem to be slightly more trouble than its worth.

majin
06-19-2013, 10:58 AM
i don't like it even if it means i can easily "cash out" my ks rewards and my wife's king tier too. it just might cause more problem on the community in the long run

i (am / can be) in favor of the mercs and the sleeves to be tradeable but not the $250+ perks

Stok3d
06-19-2013, 11:06 AM
Positive:
*Easy to sell out and not risk sellers scamming buyers by getting their account back at a later time from calling CC
*Allow ppl who missed KS to still get perks later if one goes to AH
*Could ease Customer Service demand from moving around stacking perks

Negative:
*Hacked accounts would post these very high valued perks on AH. Could pose some very high end issues
*"Lending Scams" would happen. As the game doesn't support lending and the instant you hit the accept button for trade, it's the ownership of the other person. Sadly, good ppl would inevitably lose perks that couldn't be replaced.
*If anything were to ever be duped, guess what it would be? Never say Never--Blizzard has duping problems and they use unique identifiers
*A lot more product would be used over time. With being account-bound, ppl who take a break or quit--the pro tier for instance wouldn't be used. This would unlikely be the case now.



My opinion... I dunno really. Would need to think more on it. I'm honestly leaning more towards saying 'no' unless I can convince d00dz in the guild to sell me his Producer Perk ^ ^

Yoss
06-19-2013, 11:27 AM
I mostly want the mercs and other "cards" to be tradeable. The $250+ bonuses don't bother me so much, but honestly there will be a secondary market for them. In that case, why not have CZE take a 10% cut on the transaction by making it an official feature?

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 11:29 AM
Hm...I would say yes and no.

The bonuses like Pro-player draft and so on should not be able to be traded.
As that could be misused/abused

Mercs I can see being traded.

Mercs are not tradable because you can unlock them by doing some hard modes / choosing factions.
They also make KS backers feel special and will be offered during conventions.

Account perks are not tradeable because they are account (bound) perks...

~

Lidralyn
06-19-2013, 11:36 AM
At first this sounds like a very bad idea...but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of it. I am slightly worried that people are going to come into the game, realize they missed out on way too much, and then just not play the game. I want this game to be HUGE and even more so since I spent quite a lot on it. I am a completionist and it already bugs me that Cory has said it will be impossible for me to have every card, but if I had come into the game later and saw the bonuses I missed, I very well may not play. I expect this game to be good enough that I would most likely still play it because it is going to be an amazing game, but some people will be put off by it a lot. Giving people the option to know they could acquire the bonuses, even at a very large price...would still give them the hope to do so.

With that said, I am fairly certain this would never happen, but discussion is always good.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
I mostly want the mercs and other "cards" to be tradeable. The $250+ bonuses don't bother me so much, but honestly there will be a secondary market for them. In that case, why not have CZE take a 10% cut on the transaction by making it an official feature?

Yeah same.. Mercs are a major reason I will not be merging two of my pledges, and sent a 3rd pledge directly to a friend. My wife better start learning how to play.

Diesbudt
06-19-2013, 11:43 AM
At first this sounds like a very bad idea...but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of it. I am slightly worried that people are going to come into the game, realize they missed out on way too much, and then just not play the game. I want this game to be HUGE and even more so since I spent quite a lot on it. I am a completionist and it already bugs me that Cory has said it will be impossible for me to have every card, but if I had come into the game later and saw the bonuses I missed, I very well may not play. I expect this game to be good enough that I would most likely still play it because it is going to be an amazing game, but some people will be put off by it a lot. Giving people the option to know they could acquire the bonuses, even at a very large price...would still give them the hope to do so.

With that said, I am fairly certain this would never happen, but discussion is always good.

If someone comes into the game. Likes it, and won't play because he missed too much. Then that person has an infamous issue, best described in a metaphor

If you and the person you hate the most were together. You found a generous guy who will give you money! However there is a catch. Any money he gives you, he will give double to the other person. Most people would not take this deal. Because they feel cheated they didn't get the best of the offer, when instead in the end any amount you get for free, is more than you had at the beginning.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 11:44 AM
Mercs are not tradable because you can unlock them by doing some hard modes / choosing factions.
They also make KS backers feel special and will be offered during conventions.
Owning Jace, the Mind Sculptor, or a playset of dual lands would make me feel special. I wouldn't care if other people had them too.


Account perks are not tradeable because they are account (bound) perks...
Calling it an "account" perk is nothing but a title. One can just as easily say they're "kickstarter" perks, and hey lookie there, it's not an "account" perk any more. There may be good reasons not to make them tradeable, but nomenclature is not one of them.

ConnorJS
06-19-2013, 11:56 AM
It's a great thought, but with all MMO's it's nice to have account bound items. They're like a trophy (like bunny ears in Runescape ). Mercs I do like the idea of them being tradeable but that's only because I want more! I like the model they have at the moment, if it aint broke don't fix it ;D.

ButtPuncher
06-19-2013, 12:01 PM
Why is binding to an account a "nice" thing? I don't know how not being able to trade your property can be considered as such.

Lidralyn
06-19-2013, 12:07 PM
If someone comes into the game. Likes it, and won't play because he missed too much. Then that person has an infamous issue, best described in a metaphor

If you and the person you hate the most were together. You found a generous guy who will give you money! However there is a catch. Any money he gives you, he will give double to the other person. Most people would not take this deal. Because they feel cheated they didn't get the best of the offer, when instead in the end any amount you get for free, is more than you had at the beginning.

Hmmm, I've typed out multiple metaphors that feel more on point than that one...but I am a rational person and I see the logic behind it so I deleted them. I still feel that some people will be turned off and not play. Perhaps those are not the type of people we want in the game to begin with, but less people is still less people. I am hoping the opposite is true, and we have an abundance of people and therefore do not need to worry about losing some due to the kickstarter bonuses.

Diesbudt
06-19-2013, 12:16 PM
Hmmm, I've typed out multiple metaphors that feel more on point than that one...but I am a rational person and I see the logic behind it so I deleted them. I still feel that some people will be turned off and not play. Perhaps those are not the type of people we want in the game to begin with, but less people is still less people. I am hoping the opposite is true, and we have an abundance of people and therefore do not need to worry about losing some due to the kickstarter bonuses.

Well first off the pve cards and mercs are just that PvE. And while that will be fun, with it having a stronger F2P feel to it, is not a big deal in my opinion.

If it was special PvP cards that no one could ever get, sure. I could see where people can logically be turned off. Otherwise it should not matter that much.

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 12:26 PM
Owning Jace, the Mind Sculptor, or a playset of dual lands would make me feel special. I wouldn't care if other people had them too.

You missed my point.
Mercs are designed so you can not have them all, that's why they're not tradeable, it will be the same with faction cards.

Also, your example is wrong, you wouldn't be happy about your Jace TMS and Duals if they weren't worth $100 :)

~

nearlysober
06-19-2013, 03:08 PM
CZE stated that collector, pro-player, guild master, raid leader & dungeon crawler would not be tradeable.
They stated this while the kickstarter was still going.

That information likely influenced people's decisions on if they should back or not.

Under no circumstances should CZE consider going back on their word.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 03:22 PM
CZE stated that collector, pro-player, guild master, raid leader & dungeon crawler would not be tradeable.
They stated this while the kickstarter was still going.

That information likely influenced people's decisions on if they should back or not.

Under no circumstances should CZE consider going back on their word.
Ah, didn't know that. Just the mercs and champions are under consideration then. I"ll update the OP.

Chilipapa
06-19-2013, 04:39 PM
Sorry, off topic...

When I saw this thread, I immediately thought

"Random player would like to trade for your Spectral Lotus Garden. He offers his soul in exchange"

"NTY. Spectral Lotus Garden worth more than soul."

Yoss
06-19-2013, 04:41 PM
Made me laugh, thanks.

fitzle
06-19-2013, 04:46 PM
Generally speaking I don't have a problem with this but it does run contrary to the MMO concept. I mean, you spend all your time leveling your character, gaining talents and equipment, You named that character, brought him into being and raised him from the runt of the litter to the key supporter in your PvE raid group? Who the heck is going to trade that character away? It's not like someone is going to trade away their maxed leveled, raid geared, mage in WoW right?

The concept to me is inconceivable. But hey, if some raving lunatic wants to do it to their characters who am I to say no.

Freak.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 05:07 PM
Maybe only tradeable when unleveled?

Shadowelf
06-19-2013, 05:12 PM
Maybe only tradeable when unleveled?

You were only left with mercs and champions and now champions are gone ? Maybe that's not a very good idea after all :P

Yoss
06-19-2013, 05:22 PM
Champions are not exclusive; anyone can get them. So yeah, it's actually nothing new to the suggestion, just that you can't level your merc before trading. But even then, if someone wants to trade a leveled thing, why not?

fitzle
06-19-2013, 05:33 PM
I really am fine with people if they want to trade characters. Perhaps you've already max leveled an elven ranger and decide to start a new one. You get your second elven ranger to level 10 and get bored of him, it seems reasonable to trade him away.

Mercs become a bit more of a grey area since they are frequently content rewards. can you repeat content and achieve multiple mercs? is there a negative impact if someone who hasn't done the content can be given the reward? It's possible that this could mess with the PvE experience if dungeons are balanced with unlocked content in mind.

I guess what I'm saying is that as long as having access to content by gifting and trading that normally wouldn't be accessed except through playing doesn't mess up the game design I don't have a problem with it. Generally speaking PvE is a lot of solo content anyway so they'd just be messing up their own experience right?

Hah, this reminds me of 'powerleveling' and 'twinking' discussions that go in in MMO RPGs!

If people already mentioned this I apologize, I didn't read this whole thread very closely.

sckolar
06-19-2013, 05:41 PM
I can't think of a reason for certain cards not to be tradable.

Fateanomaly
06-19-2013, 06:54 PM
+1 for mercenaries and sleeves to be tradable.

hammer
06-19-2013, 11:23 PM
I think it is awesome that sleeves are not tradeable customised trophies for big event wins sounds good to me.

purehybrid
06-19-2013, 11:30 PM
+1 for mercenaries and sleeves to be tradable.

+2

Yoss
06-20-2013, 08:51 AM
customised trophies for big event wins sounds good to me.
What does that have to do with the OP?

AstaSyneri
07-03-2013, 02:45 AM
Just for the record: I'd love it if the Mercs were tradeable. Would allow me to combine my tiers much more easily while still give some friends/guild mates the benefit of the limited number Mercs.

Sleeves I don't care about. I'll always use those I like the art best.

Kietay
07-03-2013, 05:30 AM
More freedom to do what you want will always be a good thing. Lets trade it!

Shadowelf
07-03-2013, 06:08 AM
Note however that mercs don't stack with ur pledges. So even if they were tradeable, u would still have one copy.

Hatts
07-03-2013, 08:56 AM
They plan to use Mercenaries as a way to try fun / wacky hero ideas. They will give them as rewards for winning events, as part of loot bags for physical events, as limited time holiday offers etc.

During the kickstarter there was massive backlash against anything being given out that requires physical attendance and could be traded (people don't like LOL skins and the market that surrounds them at gaming events.) Restricting it to mercenaries was CZE's compromise (and it made Cory sad.) Cosmetic things like game boards, animated heroes/skins, sleeves, etc also fall in this category and won't be tradeable.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 09:01 AM
Hatts, could you explain more this point of view? I really don't understand the reasoning (or emotional reaction in this case) that you're talking about. Why is it better if things are not tradeable?

Hatts
07-03-2013, 09:41 AM
Hatts, could you explain more this point of view? I really don't understand the reasoning (or emotional reaction in this case) that you're talking about. Why is it better if things are not tradeable?

It's been a little while (and I was in the other camp) so I may not do the argument justice. It started with the poll about including an exclusive PvE card with the shirt order (chest o Hex.) People were very concerned that since the shirt wasn't available world wide and where it was available outside the US,shipping was expensive that this provided an unfair barrier of access. People who wanted to collect everything didn't want to have to buy the chest off of tshirt buyers, they didn't want to get gouged on price and subsidize their t-shirt purchase.

After CZE capitulated on the PvE card with the t-shirt, the conversation moved to what was acceptable to be given out at events like gencon and Pax. Based on the feedback around the PvE card and t-shirts, they wouldn't give out any PvE cards that could be tradeable because people would go to the con just to get the PvE card and then resell them for more money. Since these cards would be exclusive, this is unfair for those who didn't live close to the con and had to buy them on the secondary market. This is apparently a big deal in LoL with skins, and causes much angst in the community with skins going for much more than the cost of admission to the con.

Cory still wanted an outlet for fun / wacky / thematic cards that they could offer at cons, so the compromise he came up with was that they would only do this on mercenaries, which he tried to classify along with cosmetic things (game boards, sleeves, etc.) Like cosmetic things, these wouldn't be tradeable, only obtainable as rewards from the game or as bonuses at live events. His reasoning is that there is going to be so many mercenaries, it will be impossible to collect them all so you shouldn't try.

Unfortunately all this has achieved is pushed the trading from the secondary in game market to the grey market of ebay. If you want the mercenary from Gencon 2014, you will need to buy it from someone who attended and has put the redemption code up on ebay.

grey0one
07-03-2013, 10:28 AM
While not a bad idea, I think they've programmed themselves into it being unfeasible to do. Maybe with the next big redesign they can do it.


That being said, I don't care if the current list of account bound items are not tradable.

Gridian
07-03-2013, 10:53 AM
Well, there are items and there are account blessings. All the former (EVERY card, gem, equipment and whatnot) is tradable. The latter can be seen as the achievement system in HEX. The special mercs, the $250 Kickstarter specialties are tokens of gratitude to us who spent a lot of money up front to help make HEX a reality. They are also bragging items: At March 2, 2018, when we meet a new player and he asks "where did you get that cardbord tube samurai!??!" we can say "I helped Kickstart this game. We are a very small group of abot 17'000 people that spent a lot of money before HEX was even out."
Also, by that time, there will be roughly 16 to 22 cardsets with everything, new champions, new mercenaries. The Kickstarter Mercs will just be an oddity by then with not much more than the sentimental worth we give them.

:D

Avedecus
07-03-2013, 11:37 AM
This is apparently a big deal in LoL with skins, and causes much angst in the community with skins going for much more than the cost of admission to the con.
Actually most people in the LoL community don't care about exclusive skins. They either pony up the money to buy them (which save for a single, old skin generally cost as much as normal skins anyway) or shrug and buy one of the many other cool skins.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 11:45 AM
Hatts, thanks for the details.

... what was acceptable to be given out at events like gencon and Pax. Based on the feedback around the PvE card and t-shirts, they wouldn't give out any PvE cards that could be tradeable because people would go to the con just to get the PvE card and then resell them for more money. Since these cards would be exclusive, this is unfair for those who didn't live close to the con and had to buy them on the secondary market. This is apparently a big deal in LoL with skins, and causes much angst in the community with skins going for much more than the cost of admission to the con.
My question (to whoever this argument comes from) is how completely banning trade is more fair than allowing "overpriced" resale and trade. I argue that making them tradeable is actually more fair, not less. Sure, prices might be high but at least you can get the exclusive, whereas if you had to actually be there it would have cost you even more. For example, if it costs $50 to get into GenCon and $500 for my plane ticket, maybe I'd rather just pay $100 on the secondary market and not go to the conference. Is this not more "fair"?

Hatts
07-03-2013, 12:06 PM
Well never again will I complain about the search tools on this forum, they work suprisingly well. Here (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24425) is the thread about it. I was off in my recollection, it was WoW pet collectors who were up in arms.

Many of the same posters arguing in the thread are still active, hopefully one of them stops by and answers your question Yoss.

Kietay
07-03-2013, 08:26 PM
Some people see it as more fair to ban the card for trade because they feel if the card is untradable they are under no pressure to attempt to acquire it. That is not a logical reaction though. Yoss makes the better supposition that in reality it is more fair to let them be traded so you can actually get one for cheaper than if they were not tradable. The reality of either situation doesn't change, only a persons perception of it depending on weather or not you are able to trade the cards.

I would of course prefer everything in the game be tradable as well. Generally the more freedom you have to spend your money the way you want the better.

keldrin
07-03-2013, 09:36 PM
Hatts, thanks for the details.

My question (to whoever this argument comes from) is how completely banning trade is more fair than allowing "overpriced" resale and trade. I argue that making them tradeable is actually more fair, not less. Sure, prices might be high but at least you can get the exclusive, whereas if you had to actually be there it would have cost you even more. For example, if it costs $50 to get into GenCon and $500 for my plane ticket, maybe I'd rather just pay $100 on the secondary market and not go to the conference. Is this not more "fair"?

This is a unfair annalysis. You completely left off food and hotel costs.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 10:23 PM
This is a unfair annalysis. You completely left off food and hotel costs.
Ouch. I did. My whole analysis is doomed! DOOOOOMED!

Yoss
07-05-2013, 07:12 PM
Updated the OP at bit.