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nicosharp
06-19-2013, 10:59 AM
Question for CZE:
Any thoughts on the Platinum system offering extra Plat to players that spend at a certain threshold?
(I am using Riot Point purchases as a rough example)

For illustrative purposes let's say:
$1 = 100 Plat
Draft entry fee = 100 Plat
1 Pack = 200 Plat
V.I.P for 1 month = 400 Plat

Let's say:
If a player spends $5 they get 540 Plat (40 bonus)
If they spend $10 they get 1100 Plat (100 bonus)
$25 = 2800 Plat (300 bonus)
$50 = 5700 Plat (700 bonus)
Bonuses slightly increase the more you pay upfront for Plat.

Is something along these lines being considered? I think this kind of pricing is a win-win for F2P, cause it is money upfront for you, looms over players to spend what they have left, and offers players more value.

How will Gold and Platinum Interact? : http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25082

Badmoonz
06-19-2013, 11:04 AM
I'd be willing to bet that this is the model we will see, as it is the industry standard for every game with digital currency.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:06 AM
I'd be willing to bet that this is the model we will see, as it is the industry standard for every game with digital currency.

Well, it is not mimicked in MTG:O
The only other disadvantage is bonuses creating large marketplace variability initially, as the value of a single plat is determined by the biggest bonus you can get for purchasing it in bulk. This also weakens the overall value of the slacker-backer.

papalorax
06-19-2013, 11:07 AM
is $1 really 100 plat?....ugh...micro transactions blow

nandus
06-19-2013, 11:07 AM
I can't help but agree, I expect the monetization model for the game to be basically how the OP described it. It's practically a standard in the industry at the moment and I don't see it changing much any time soon.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:08 AM
is $1 really 100 plat?....ugh...micro transactions blow
Illustrative purposes = hypothetically

edit - after reading a post about the VIP program and credit card tracking. It is more than likely VIP program will only be purchasable by a reoccurring credit card charge directly.

I do see a few issues with assuming Plat will be sold this way, but hope it is.

ramseytheory
06-19-2013, 11:20 AM
is $1 really 100 plat?....ugh...micro transactions blow

If $1 were 1 platinum, the platinum auction house would be next to useless for cards which are only a few dollars or less in value (i.e. most of them). That said, we don't know the exchange rate yet.

jai151
06-19-2013, 11:25 AM
I tend to doubt it will be a variable amount as is standard in other games. Remember, in most games using that model there are a ton of different items to purchase with their in game currency. Here, not so much.

Turtlewing
06-19-2013, 11:26 AM
If $1 were 1 platinum, the platinum auction house would be next to useless for cards which are only a few dollars or less in value (i.e. most of them). That said, we don't know the exchange rate yet.

There's no reason you have to be limited to paying integer amounts of platinum.

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 11:26 AM
The success of the game will depend on a couple things, having a viable economy is one of them.
That means we can "cash out" via Ebay, the exchange rate from CZE should be static.

You pay $X and you get X00 platinum (to be able to sell commons and uncos for a couple cents)

~

Yoss
06-19-2013, 11:30 AM
If they do discounts, it should be on merchandise, not currency. For example, buy 10 boosters get 1 free, or whatever.

wayne
06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
As mentioned in another thread, as soon as you offer a bonus like this, the value of platinum to $ will approach that of the highest bonus level.

For example, you want $50 = 5700 platinum, equivalent to $1 = 114 platinum. I buy this and then immediately resell for something like $1 = 103p for a minor profit. The market would not stay at $1 = 100p and would eventually settle just under $1 = 114. Even if we cannot directly trade platinum for $, this will still happen indirectly using booster packs as a surrogate.

ericsche21
06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
I tend to doubt it will be a variable amount as is standard in other games. Remember, in most games using that model there are a ton of different items to purchase with their in game currency. Here, not so much.

Along with that, it seems like the VIP program is a mechanism to let you stretch your dollar farther by taking your real money and converting directly in to boosters so this system may not be necessary. I worry about devaluing platinum with this setup will make the economy more confusing than it needs to be. Additionally, at least with LoL, when you pay them for in game currency, there is no way to turn that back in to real money (at least not since the last time I played). So this system would definitely prevent you from cashing out platinum with crypto (which hasn't been confirmed though I think many think crypto won't broker that transaction) and this could also impact the secondary market in some screwy way if you wanted to get your platinum back out of the game.

This observation is also just made by my experiences with currency from LoL, so definitely correct me if I'm wrong or if my logic doesn't make sense

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
The success of the game will depend on a couple things, having a viable economy is one of them.
That means we can "cash out" via Ebay, the exchange rate from CZE should be static.

You pay $X and you get X00 platinum (to be able to sell commons and uncos for a couple cents)

~
While I agree with you, exchanging something that is bought with a dollar or bought with 0.91$ due to a currency discount is still quite easy to determine it's true value. Cashing out digital items should never give you a full 100% conversion rate anyway, unless there is much more demand than supply.

PowderedToastMan
06-19-2013, 11:34 AM
Almost assured this is what you will see, Cory already said there will be no "pay walls" or Nickle and Diming out SOULS!!!!

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:36 AM
As mentioned in another thread, as soon as you offer a bonus like this, the value of platinum to $ will approach that of the highest bonus level.

For example, you want $50 = 5700 platinum, equivalent to $1 = 114 platinum. I buy this and then immediately resell for something like $1 = 103p for a minor profit. The market would not stay at $1 = 100p and would eventually settle just under $1 = 114. Even if we cannot directly trade platinum for $, this will still happen indirectly using booster packs as a surrogate.

And I am totally okay with that. The community of players wins, because that is already lower than retail defined prices for items.

MatWith1T
06-19-2013, 11:37 AM
Well, if $5 gets you 540 plat, then 100 plat is not equal to $1. Bonuses don't give you more, it just devalues the currency, and punishes anyone that is not buying in-game currency at the highest bonus level.

Bonuses work well in games where money is only going one way. If the only thing we could do with plat was buy things directly from CZE, and CZE would always charge 2 plat for a pack (or 200 in the case of this example) then that would be a fantastic bonus.

But if you want to trade on the AH for cards using plat, or trade your plat to get real money back, or use it to purchase anything at all in the game that doesn't have a fixed cost set by CZE, then platinum is never going to be worth more than largest available discount. (Riot Points in LoL give up to a 50% bonus if you are spending larger sums of money). Which is lose-lose, anyone not spending $100+ every time they purchase plat is getting less value. And offering more fixed-cost items for less money just requires players to purchase all those items to remain competitive (ie, if a full playset of legendaries would cost about $200 worth of packs in a non-bonus scenario, but only $150 with bonuses, more people will have stronger decks, meaning you too must purchase packs to obtain those decks if you want to compete).

This is not the most eloquently explained functionality of currency devaluation, but I am at work, and there are entire schools of economics devoted to theory of currency exchange rates. In a nutshell, more currency only helps if prices can never change on anything. That takes a lot of fun out of the game, and many of us, whether thru CZE or elsewhere, still hope for a means of redeeming plat for $$, which a bonus system would destroy.

Yoss
06-19-2013, 11:38 AM
The point wayne is making is that any discount they offer, unless limited supply like VIP, will do nothing other than reduce the price of the item overall, and if they're going to do that, they may as well just start with that as their basis.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 11:41 AM
You guys are totally undercutting the casual gamers with your comments.

I have friends that much rather just pay $10 now to get something. Then break from a game for 3 months. Come back to it again and spend $10 more for something again. An early investment for them at the max value is not worth it, nor is a long-term investment.

Mainly hardcore players, dedicated to the game long-term will make it a point to always get the highest value Plat package. Which I would hope is not higher than $50.

ramseytheory
06-19-2013, 11:41 AM
There's no reason you have to be limited to paying integer amounts of platinum.

If you charge $1 for platinum and allow decimal amounts, either you run into problems with limited precision in storing floating point numbers, or you say that players can trade in increments of at most 0.01 (say). The latter system is exactly equivalent to charging $1 for 100 platinum except for being less intuitive, so why not just charge $1 for 100 platinum in the first place?

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 11:44 AM
If they are smart they will do $X = X00 plat

Since they are, they'll do that :)

Chase rares will be 500 plat, commons will be 10 plat, uncos will be 50 or 100 plat.
It's not that hard to convert and it's easier to store/code in an IT system.

~

Badmoonz
06-19-2013, 11:56 AM
On that model, if this ends up anything like MTGO, chase rares may end up 500 platinum. However commons, uncommons, and undesireable rares won't even be worth 1 platinum. Even more so since the cost to entry is cheaper for Hex.

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 11:59 AM
On that model, if this ends up anything like MTGO, chase rares may end up 500 platinum. However commons, uncommons, and undesireable rares won't even be worth 1 platinum. Even more so since the cost to entry is cheaper for Hex.

There is crafting and new players, cards will always be worth something.

~

Turtlewing
06-19-2013, 12:07 PM
If you charge $1 for platinum and allow decimal amounts, either you run into problems with limited precision in storing floating point numbers, or you say that players can trade in increments of at most 0.01 (say). The latter system is exactly equivalent to charging $1 for 100 platinum except for being less intuitive, so why not just charge $1 for 100 platinum in the first place?

First of all $1.00 = $100 platinum is not inherently more initiative. I would argue the $1.00 = 1p is more intuitive to me because USD are my naive currency and all our prices are written in decimal format already. so seeing prices in X.00p format transparently converts to prices in $X.00 format. Whereas having all prices as integers requires conversion.

Secondly, you've ignore the possibility of fixed point decimal numbers with more than 2 decimal places, and the possibility to increase the number of allowed decimal places if they find more precision is necessary.

And thirdly, my actual position is that it doesn't matter as the difference is cosmetic and in a global game it's going to be impossible to please everyone as cultural expectations about how money is written are the root of our opinions on what "makes sense" and those vary greatly between different nations.

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 12:10 PM
And thirdly, my actual position is that it doesn't matter as the difference is cosmetic and in a global game it's going to be impossible to please everyone as cultural expectations about how money is written are the root of our opinions on what "makes sense" and those vary greatly between different nations.

in IT it's easier to use integer than decimal.
Also if the ingame currency is EXACTLY like USD, doesn't it break the purpose of it being an ingame currency?

~

Maximum0v3rdriv3
06-19-2013, 12:24 PM
Also if the ingame currency is EXACTLY like USD, doesn't it break the purpose of it being an ingame currency?

~

Depends on your definition of purpose. I see the purpose as making a one way transforming currency. You give CZE your money. (depending on where you are in the world it'll be converted to USD since CZE is a US company.) Then it'll be converted to platinum for use in a closed system. Closed so that CZE makes all "true" profit from transactions in their virtual world. It mirroring USD doesn't detract for this, it would in fact keep it from appearing to have yet another conversion step. example, .75 Euro > 1.00 USD > 100 Platinum

This is how i see it.

Turtlewing
06-19-2013, 12:24 PM
in IT it's easier to use integer than decimal.
Also if the ingame currency is EXACTLY like USD, doesn't it break the purpose of it being an ingame currency?

~

What systems are you working with where it's easier to use integers than decimals? (honest question) In my experience it's not any harder to use a decimal value.

As for the purpose of the in-game currency, um.. no. The purpose of platinum is to act like casino chips (really more like arcade tokens since we porbably can't cash out).

Chilipapa
06-19-2013, 01:02 PM
in IT it's easier to use integer than decimal.
Also if the ingame currency is EXACTLY like USD, doesn't it break the purpose of it being an ingame currency?

~

There are legal reasons as well.

You are not paying for a card, instead you are paying for a resource. You can spend it at the CZE store, or trade it to other players. This sidesteps many legal issues, because you are buying PLATINUM, not a card or service directly. Different countries have different consumer protection laws, and the U.S. has a half a billion state laws ranging from pro-industry to pro-consumer to pro-WTFweird. Unless they fail to give you plat, or it vanishes at some point for no reason(failed sale, just goes poof, whatever), they're covered.

Fireblast
06-19-2013, 01:15 PM
What systems are you working with where it's easier to use integers than decimals? (honest question) In my experience it's not any harder to use a decimal value.


It's easier to use BIGINT than DECIMAL(13,2) and it has less display errors etc...
It would also takes a little less database space, considering they'll have a million customers and a billion cards in their database...

~

Yoss
06-19-2013, 01:21 PM
You guys are totally undercutting the casual gamers with your comments.

I have friends that much rather just pay $10 now to get something. Then break from a game for 3 months. Come back to it again and spend $10 more for something again. An early investment for them at the max value is not worth it, nor is a long-term investment.

Mainly hardcore players, dedicated to the game long-term will make it a point to always get the highest value Plat package. Which I would hope is not higher than $50.
I think you're missing a key part of the argument. If there is a discount available in bulk that only "hardcore" players would buy, then it will become available to everyone through the market system. I don't see many casual gamers who would be so "casual" that they won't even be willing to check the AH for price competition, which would let them see the devalued version of the currency.

Side note to nico, please update your OP with a link to the currency thread in my signature. I've also cross-linked mine back to here.

Turtlewing
06-19-2013, 01:38 PM
It's easier to use BIGINT than DECIMAL(13,2) and it has less display errors etc...
It would also takes a little less database space, considering they'll have a million customers and a billion cards in their database...

~

OK, I guess we just have different concepts of what's sufficiently more complex that it warrants being called more complex.

MoonSohn
06-19-2013, 01:49 PM
I think LoL runs into a big problem that irks me, but its also a common business practice when converting real life money to fake 'video game money'.

Let's say CZE puts platinum for $1 USD = 100 Platinum, but then they have those bonus tiers so that if you invest $5 you'll get 525, and for $10 you get 1080. Then in the store they charge 200 Platinum for a booster, maybe 150 for a card sleeve. But then you'll check back at your in-game wallet and never be able to spend those bonus points, or never fully spend all your money, so you think "oh well I'm already so close to affording that thing I want. Might as well put a few more on so I can get that thing."

Gets worst when LoL has those odd numbered sales. Like right now you can buy the Aatrox Bundle for 1462. See that weird number? That's the thing meant to make you always have spare change in your in-game wallet that irks the hell out of me.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 01:51 PM
I think you're missing a key part of the argument. If there is a discount available in bulk that only "hardcore" players would buy, then it will become available to everyone through the market system. I don't see many casual gamers who would be so "casual" that they won't even be willing to check the AH for price competition, which would let them see the devalued version of the currency.

Side note to nico, please update your OP with a link to the currency thread in my signature. I've also cross-linked mine back to here.
I think you are missing what I am talking about. No matter what you do, some players will only buy $10 worth of Plat at a time. That does not mean they can't buy product on the AH. It means they will not spend more than $10 on the currency conversion.

Casual players are also players that may entirely avoid the AH and buy all packs directly from CZE.. Like I did when I first started playing MTG:O.


I think LoL runs into a big problem that irks me, but its also a common business practice when converting real life money to fake 'video game money'.

Let's say CZE puts platinum for $1 USD = 100 Platinum, but then they have those bonus tiers so that if you invest $5 you'll get 525, and for $10 you get 1080. Then in the store they charge 200 Platinum for a booster, maybe 150 for a card sleeve. But then you'll check back at your in-game wallet and never be able to spend those bonus points, or never fully spend all your money, so you think "oh well I'm already so close to affording that thing I want. Might as well put a few more on so I can get that thing."

Gets worst when LoL has those odd numbered sales. Like right now you can buy the Aatrox Bundle for 1462. See that weird number? That's the thing meant to make you always have spare change in your in-game wallet that irks the hell out of me.
Trade kind of eliminates those boundaries artificially setup by games like League of legends. left-overs are worth something in a fully tradeable TCG.

Avedecus
06-19-2013, 01:52 PM
But then you'll check back at your in-game wallet and never be able to spend those bonus points, or never fully spend all your money, so you think "oh well I'm already so close to affording that thing I want. Might as well put a few more on so I can get that thing."

Mission accomplished.

Ramshackal
06-19-2013, 05:11 PM
I can almost promise you they won't use a bonus system. They know we take the value of these cards seriously and they won't do anything that would diminish that (as the bonus system WOULD.) If they do implement a bonus system, people will buy from the secondary market instead of Crypto anyway.

EntropyBall
06-19-2013, 05:21 PM
The key difference in LoL is that there is no way to trade Riot Points. Having an AH/market really screws up the bonus system.

I also hope they do $1 = 100 plat. Most cards are going to trade for less than $1, so I think it just makes more sense. For those of you that prefer a 1 to 1 ratio, just think of it as 1 cent = 1 plat.

Willzyx
06-19-2013, 05:31 PM
If platinum can be traded, then this wouldn't work. Big investors like MTGO Traders would just buy mass amounts for discount resale if this happened with tix in MTGO. Nobody would ever buy direct for full price.

Anssi
06-19-2013, 07:45 PM
Not sure if mentionec before, but during nacc hex was playable and I took a quick peek at the in-game store. I'm 95% sure it had bonus scaling platinum, so if you bought more at once you got some bonus plat.

BlindMan
06-19-2013, 09:05 PM
Platinum should have the same value across the board. Casual players should be able to buy enough platinum to get 1 pack of cards without feeling like they are getting a bum deal because they won't buy 20 packs worth at a time.

jai151
06-19-2013, 10:34 PM
Not sure if mentionec before, but during nacc hex was playable and I took a quick peek at the in-game store. I'm 95% sure it had bonus scaling platinum, so if you bought more at once you got some bonus plat.

If this is indeed the case, I hope CZE seriously rethinks their position before launch. Scaling Platinum will wreak havoc on the secondary market.

nicosharp
06-19-2013, 10:42 PM
If this is indeed the case, I hope CZE seriously rethinks their position before launch. Scaling Platinum will wreak havoc on the secondary market.

That's a brash statement. Have you seriously thought about it?
The secondary market will actually benefit.
Third party markets may suffer, but then again, it isn't their game to profit off.

EntropyBall
06-20-2013, 12:03 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by 2nd and 3rd party markets, but if they offer discounted bulk platinum, and also don't prohibit people from buying/selling plat outside of the game, then they are just pushing lots of people to buy plat from outside the game. This makes no sense, since they are then just giving profit to 3rd party sites (Ebay,etc) for no benefit to CZE.

For example, a bulk buyer will just buy 60 plat for $50, and then resell it to (multiple) people for $55. 60 plat enters the economy, the Ebayer makes $5, a few players get a slight discount, and CZE gets $5 less than they would without the bulk plat system.

As long as everything is tradeable, they are just setting a new price on plat by offering bulk discounts, and costing themselves money.

Patrigan
06-20-2013, 12:19 AM
I'm not sure what you mean by 2nd and 3rd party markets, but if they offer discounted bulk platinum, and also don't prohibit people from buying/selling plat outside of the game, then they are just pushing lots of people to buy plat from outside the game. This makes no sense, since they are then just giving profit to 3rd party sites (Ebay,etc) for no benefit to CZE.

For example, a bulk buyer will just buy 60 plat for $50, and then resell it to (multiple) people for $55. 60 plat enters the economy, the Ebayer makes $5, a few players get a slight discount, and CZE gets $5 less than they would without the bulk plat system.

As long as everything is tradeable, they are just setting a new price on plat by offering bulk discounts, and costing themselves money.

This is true to a certain extent.

Let me give you an example:

Cards are much cheaper when bought in singles online. A local store also has singles, but his singles are more expensive than online (mostly because he's not in sync with the online prices). I know plenty of locals that still buy from him. Some do it to support the storekeeper and because they like him, others do it because there's less hassle and more certainty.

The same will apply in the game. There will be plenty of players who buy the cheapest packs because they want to buy a few boosters and play in a tournament. They don't want to search online for a good plat converter. They want to play and they don't care about the financial side. Not everyone will mass invest like some people in this thread. And certainly not everyone (I dare say most), do not care a bit about the value of their cards.

Yes CZE will "lose" some money, but in the long run, I think they will win more than what they "lose". It's a calculated "loss". Also, offering discounts will give most players a good feeling, it's a simple psychology thing, even if they don't even buy it. It feels like a fanservice.

Fireblast
06-20-2013, 02:13 AM
Anssi, are you sure it wasn't the "Buy gold for platinum" that used bonus?

Like 100 plat = 1000 gold, 500 plat = 6000 gold???

~

Niedar
06-20-2013, 02:39 AM
No bulk bonus and 1:1 exchange rate. Its pretty simple, stop trying to ruin it.

jai151
06-20-2013, 04:45 AM
That's a brash statement. Have you seriously thought about it?
The secondary market will actually benefit.
Third party markets may suffer, but then again, it isn't their game to profit off.

You're taking the base currency of the game and giving it a variable value. That is only a benefit to anyone if a price remains fixed, as then you can pay more in and get more. With a market that is already based on perceived value, the AH prices will settle to the lowest possible value of platinum and thus the highest amount of platinum per card.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
You're taking the base currency of the game and giving it a variable value. That is only a benefit to anyone if a price remains fixed, as then you can pay more in and get more. With a market that is already based on perceived value, the AH prices will settle to the lowest possible value of platinum and thus the highest amount of platinum per card.
There are 4 things that will determine the value of cards regardless of the way plat is sold:
#1 - The retail value of a pack
#2 - The V.I.P value of a pack
#3 - The value of 'free' packs won by the drafting/PvP community
#4 - The highest potential plat per dollar in exchange

Even with everything above, someone getting the lowest possible plat value from a transaction with CZE still benefits in this market. They spend what they can, and get more on the auction house. The auction house will always have cards and packs at lower than retail values due to these 4 factors. The only one that loses is 3rd party traders that want to 'cash-out', as the cash-out conversion rate is lower.

(There are little things like rarity of a card, rarity of treasure chests, frequency of treasure chests proccing additional packs, frequency of primal proccing, that also contribute to the overall value of a pack, which all lower the packs overall cost.)

MatWith1T
06-20-2013, 08:35 AM
If you want cheaper packs of cards, there is already the VIP mechanism and the Auction House to accomplish that. There is no need for CZE to further discount their own product and hinder secondary markets to further the wishes of people who want more free stuff.

Yoss
06-20-2013, 08:39 AM
I'd still rather see a fixed, easy to understand conversion rate like 1 Plat per 1 Cent. That way it's easy to figure out in your head. The discount system gains NOTHING for CZE.

Avedecus
06-20-2013, 10:13 AM
I'd still rather see a fixed, easy to understand conversion rate like 1 Plat per 1 Cent. That way it's easy to figure out in your head. The discount system gains NOTHING for CZE.
Except more money.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 10:13 AM
I'd still rather see a fixed, easy to understand conversion rate like 1 Plat per 1 Cent. That way it's easy to figure out in your head. The discount system gains NOTHING for CZE.

/facepalm

It gains a lot for CZE, and for spending conscious consumers.
It punishes impulsive consumers.

People subconsciously will spend more initially due to the bonuses provided. (+1 for CZE)

This will create a circumstance where players have a large supply of plat leftover to spend.

When you have plat leftover to spend you are more likely to spend it in situations where you see something you want and have enough saved to purchase, vs. times where you see something you want and do not have enough saved to purchase it.

Spend conscious consumers will utilize the bonuses to pay for additional entries into drafts, or to buy packs for drafts on the AH at a lower price. (+1 for players)

Specifically, things that are required to be purchased directly from CZE allow everyone to benefit from bonus plat purchases. (+1 for players)

Sure a straight 1:1 ratio is so much easier to understand, but the win-more strategy for players and CZE is bonus plat. 3rd party sellers are the only ones that lose out.

MatWith1T
06-20-2013, 10:29 AM
So you want CZE to punish their players who can't/won't make large bulk purchases?
And having more plat will make people simultaneously both spend more plat and have more leftover plat?
And why exactly are we out to destroy third-party sellers anyways? Cory said he wants an active, dynamic aftermarket, and inflated prices hinder both the auction house and non-CZE sites dealing in Hex.
And again, how is bulk-purchases bonuses anything more than 'All the discounts already available aren't sufficient to me, give me even more stuff for less money?'

I'm not trying to sound hostile, but all of your arguments seem to center on a philosophy that it is OK to punish other people as long as you get the thing you want. Impulse buyers, low amount buyers, third-party buyers, third-party sellers, AH buyers and sellers... all OK for them to take a hit so people can buy 2 Plat packs from CZE for $1.80 instead on $2.

Badmoonz
06-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Offering a discount for large purchases does not "punish" anyone. This is a common practice in online and even retail stores.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 10:46 AM
#1: So you want CZE to punish their players who can't/won't make large bulk purchases?
#2: And having more plat will make people simultaneously both spend more plat and have more leftover plat?
#3: And why exactly are we out to destroy third-party sellers anyways? Cory said he wants an active, dynamic aftermarket, and inflated prices hinder both the auction house and non-CZE sites dealing in Hex.
#4: And again, how is bulk-purchases bonuses anything more than 'All the discounts already available aren't sufficient to me, give me even more stuff for less money?'

I'm not trying to sound hostile, but all of your arguments seem to center on a philosophy that it is OK to punish other people as long as you get the thing you want. Impulse buyers, low amount buyers, third-party buyers, third-party sellers, AH buyers and sellers... all OK for them to take a hit so people can buy 2 Plat packs from CZE for $1.80 instead on $2.
#1: This system rewards everyone. It punishes no one.
#2: Yes, a good thing for players and CZE.
#3: It destroys nothing, just makes them sell for penny's less on the dollar for cards.
#4: Are you telling me you don't like discounts? Pretty damn confused by this question/logic? Ever been to Costco?

There is no philosophy being thrown around here. Just economics.

jai151
06-20-2013, 11:11 AM
I don't have a problem with discounts when purchasing goods. I do have a problem with discounts when purchasing the base currency of your game especially if it's being used as a trade medium.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 11:29 AM
I don't have a problem with discounts when purchasing goods. I do have a problem with discounts when purchasing the base currency of your game especially if it's being used as a trade medium.

If the maximum discount is set in stone, then you already know what the base value of the currency is for trade.

Let's say $50 is the highest 'package' you can buy plat with. and let's say you get 5700 plat for that $50.

That means that a dollar is really worth: 5700 / 50 = 114
$1 = 114 Plat
A retail pack is worth in dollars: 200 plat/114 plat = $1.75 (rounded down)

Now that you have the simple math of what a plat is really worth, even with bonuses applied, what makes that negatively effect trade? This sets a narrower threshold for what a consumer would pay on the AH for a pack.

jai151
06-20-2013, 11:32 AM
If the maximum discount is set in stone, then you already know what the base value of the currency is for trade.

Let's say $50 is the highest 'package' you can buy plat with. and let's say you get 5700 plat for that $50.

That means that a dollar is really worth: 5700 / 50 = 114
$1 = 114 Plat
A retail pack is worth in dollars: 200/114 = $1.75 (rounded down)

Now that you have the simple math of what a plat is really worth, even with bonuses applied, what makes that negatively effect trade? This sets a narrower threshold for what a consumer would pay on the AH for a pack.

It negatively affects every person who does not buy at the max discount, basically saying their dollar is not worth a dollar. It discourages people from ever buying plat (unless they're buying max) and instead trying to trade for it.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 11:36 AM
It negatively affects every person who does not buy at the max discount, basically saying their dollar is not worth a dollar. It discourages people from ever buying plat (unless they're buying max) and instead trying to trade for it.
Consumers always have the final choice.
No one has to buy in bulk.
No one has to buy the bare minimum.
It is all personal choice.
There is already a price ceiling set in place.
The consumer decides whether or not they are comfortable paying at the ceiling if it is within their means, or if they want to take the extra step for the best possible discount.
This is fair.
It is not easy to understand, but it is fair.
Not everyone will use the Auction House.
Even less will use third party retailers.

Hibbert
06-20-2013, 11:37 AM
I wouldn't like to see any sort of discount for bulk plat purchases. It will push people to buy more plat than they need, which will lead to a glut of plat in the economy. If people purchase as needed, it will be generally scarcer and less volatile.

It also seems to me that any bonus cash CZE gets from people purchasing large amounts upfront would be negated to some degree by small time buyers turning to the 3rd party sellers of plat. Others have said this, and I also agree that maybe not everyone would find a non-CZE plat seller for their needs. I think it would be enough to make a difference though.

If there's going to be a bulk discount, I'd rather see it on virtual booster "boxes" and/or "cases". There will already be downward pressure on the price of a boosters from tournament prizes and the VIP program. Another discount there wouldn't affect things as much.

jai151
06-20-2013, 11:40 AM
What world do you live? Consumers always have the final choice.
No one has to buy in bulk.
No one has to buy the bare minimum.
It is all personal choice.
There is already a price ceiling set in place.
The consumer decides whether or not they are comfortable paying at the ceiling if it is within their means, or if they want to take the extra step for the best possible discount.
This is fair.
It is not easy to understand, but it is fair.
Not everyone will use the Auction House.
Even less will use third party retailers.

Not everyone will use the Auction House? What world do YOU live in?

The TCG world lives and dies on singles.

Again, I do not have a problem with discounts. I just want them applied on something that is not a base currency, EG buy 5 packs get 1 free.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 11:45 AM
Not everyone will use the Auction House? What world do YOU live in?

The TCG world lives and dies on singles.

Again, I do not have a problem with discounts. I just want them applied on something that is not a base currency, EG buy 5 packs get 1 free.
I've played plenty of MMO's till max level, never using a AH or the equivalent. TCG's may be slightly different, but you'd be surprised. Maybe MTG:O's trade system is not the most intuitive, but for several months I did not use it to purchase packs, and just bought directly from MTG:O's store.

It will be interesting to see what they decide. My guess is they are going to do this regardless of what people here think, but it could go either way.

jai151
06-20-2013, 11:52 AM
I've played plenty of MMO's till max level, never using a AH or the equivalent. TCG's may be slightly different, but you'd be surprised. Maybe MTG:O's trade system is not the most intuitive, but for several months I did not use it to purchase packs, and just bought directly from MTG:O's store.

It will be interesting to see what they decide. My guess is they are going to do this regardless of what people here think, but it could go either way.

I never use the AH in WoW except to dump things in to to sell. But TCGs are a completely different animal. To say the singles market is huge is a massive understatement.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 11:53 AM
I never use the AH in WoW except to dump things in to to sell. But TCGs are a completely different animal. To say the singles market is huge is a massive understatement.
You still may be underestimating truly casual players.
(as far as Plat AH trade, and pack purchases go)

jai151
06-20-2013, 11:57 AM
You still may be underestimating truly casual players.
(as far as Plat AH trade, and pack purchases go)

I'm not seeing the connection.

Casual players are just as big a purchaser of singles as the serious ones. Everyone wants to finish off their deck.

Yoss
06-20-2013, 12:05 PM
I'm not going to refute what people have been posting. I'll merely say that I hope they don't discount the currency, and if they want a discount program that they will make it product based (like booster cases or the VIP program). If they do decide to do currency distortion, I am savvy enough to understand it and protect myself; too bad for the other guys.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 12:06 PM
The connection is: no matter what you think about what defines a 'casual' player, there will be a small subset of casual players that never touch the auction house for trade. Those players don't care about how bonuses to plat purchases effect the in-game economy. For whatever they are buying retail, or spending to get into draft, and bonus is nice.

This doesn't rule out the idea around instead having those bonuses apply to direct retail purchases from CZE.
I still find that there is a compelling argument to have the bonuses apply for everyone for any purchase, as the plat value of every single card slightly increases, as the dollar value slightly decreases. Cards will still be super cheap.

jai151
06-20-2013, 12:08 PM
Wouldn't that just fall into a needs of the many, though? I mean, by your definition, it's a small subset.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 12:12 PM
Wouldn't that just fall into a needs of the many, though? I mean, by your definition, it's a small subset.

Yeah, definitely, but we are kind of veering off topic here.
The argument we presented each other is whether or not bonus plat would really ruin the secondary economy of the game.
I say - No
you say - Yes

I was only trying to point out that the secondary market does not matter to everyone, but the real point is I don't see the AH being negatively effected at all by bonus plat. Whether players use it or not.

jai151
06-20-2013, 12:21 PM
Yeah, definitely, but we are kind of veering off topic here.
The argument we presented each other is whether or not bonus plat would really ruin the secondary economy of the game.
I say - No
you say - Yes

I was only trying to point out that the secondary market does not matter to everyone, but the real point is I don't see the AH being negatively effected at all by bonus plat. Whether players use it or not.

To be fair (and I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative or nitpicky here), you have said the AH impact would be minimal. On the other hand, if plat itself were a flat rate and the boosters were discounted in bulk, you'd have the same net effect without impacting the AH at all.

ericsche21
06-20-2013, 12:24 PM
So the way I understand the argument (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that casuals are going to spend low increments of real money for plat (so $1=100p or whatever) so whether or not they get full value for their dollar doesn't matter to them. That I can accept.

However, under this system, plat wouldn't really be a $1=100 conversion, it would be whatever the largest discount would be, so like $1=80p or whatever hypothetical number. That means, for anyone slightly beyond the level of being casual, and actually trying to stretch their dollar to get the most out of the game, is more or less obligated to always buy plat at the greatest discounts price (which is the largest real money purchase).

This doesn't jive with me for two reasons. The first is that maybe I only want 25 dollars worth of plat to buy a few rares for my deck. However, being slightly more savvy of the economics, I realize the only way I actually get my full money's worth is if I buy $200 worth of plat, because if I buy anything lower than that my plat is going to instantly lose value from what I paid for it. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and makes me realize that platinum is a money grab by crypto. And while it obviously is, since this game is a business, I'd still prefer to get screwed the same way everyone else gets screwed. So if we don't have this discounted system, the casual still pays 1 dollar to get 100plat (cause he would do that anyways), but everyone elses plat is worth the same as well, regardless of how much you can spend at a given time.

The second reason I dislike this model is because for Hex, if you want to be involved in PvP at all, you are going to have to put up real money. For games like LoL, everything you buy with personal money is either cosmetic or lets you get stuff a bit quicker than you could if you just ground out game generated currency. However, as far as we currently know, there is no PvE to PvP system in place for Hex, so real money has to be committed in order to play PvP. As such, the system is some form of pay2win/pay2play, as the more money you put in, the more and better cards you can buy, the more drafts you can take part of. And I'm fine with that concept, that's what a TCG is. However, real money is the only way to get involved in that system, so to make one person's dollar less valuable, only because they aren't willing to give in lump sums, makes an already unbalanced system (the more money you put in, the more you get out) even more unbalanced.

That said, I think there should be ways to stretch you dollar in Hex, and I think crypto already has one in place. The VIP system more or less gives you four boosters for the price of two every month. Additionally, drafts and tourny prices allow you to stretch the value of your boosters moreso than if you just open them. I think these systems are great and encourage other possibilities, I just don't think variable real money to platinum conversions are the best or most tasteful ways to accomplish this.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 12:42 PM
You give pro / hardcore players more draft entry fees. They flip more packs because of that for less $ invested. This lowers both the price of single cards, and the prices of packs. One of the reasons why I don't think value of cards/packs will be effected much by bonus plat.

There is a lot of ways to stretch your money already, depending on how you plan to play this game. I don't think limiting the ways you can stretch it hurt anyone.
However, I am going to keep my eye on the thread, but really have nothing more to say about it.

jai151
06-20-2013, 12:45 PM
It's not the value of the cards or packs that's taking the hit, it's the value of a dollar.

It's like if you had $100 and went to another country.

You go to the currency exchange to switch to the local money. The man in line in front of you trades his $1000 in and get's $1000 of local currency, but when you want to trade your $100 in they only give you $90 worth.

BlindMan
06-20-2013, 12:52 PM
The problem is that if you only spend 2 dollars, each dollar is worth less than they would be if you spent 20 dollars. This is a game that has a F2P side and a $4/month VIP option. It's meant to be a low barrier to entry. If you devalue people's purchases under a certain threshold, you raise the barrier to entry. People don't like getting less value for their money, no matter how "casual" they are.

Badmoonz
06-20-2013, 12:53 PM
The second reason I dislike this model is because for Hex, if you want to be involved in PvP at all, you are going to have to put up real money. For games like LoL, everything you buy with personal money is either cosmetic or lets you get stuff a bit quicker than you could if you just ground out game generated currency. However, as far as we currently know, there is no PvE to PvP system in place for Hex, so real money has to be committed in order to play PvP. As such, the system is some form of pay2win/pay2play, as the more money you put in, the more and better cards you can buy, the more drafts you can take part of. And I'm fine with that concept, that's what a TCG is. However, real money is the only way to get involved in that system, so to make one person's dollar less valuable, only because they aren't willing to give in lump sums, makes an already unbalanced system (the more money you put in, the more you get out) even more unbalanced.

This is a very good counter-argument to the discount system.

stiii
06-20-2013, 05:10 PM
It's not the value of the cards or packs that's taking the hit, it's the value of a dollar.

It's like if you had $100 and went to another country.

You go to the currency exchange to switch to the local money. The man in line in front of you trades his $1000 in and get's $1000 of local currency, but when you want to trade your $100 in they only give you $90 worth.

This is exactly how it works when you trade currency.

MatWith1T
06-20-2013, 05:39 PM
This is exactly how it works when you trade currency.

I will admit. That made me chuckle.

An important distinction is that that only happens with a floating currency rate. And no one is getting a 100% fair rate in those lines. (this is really a better analogy for selling your plat back to dollars via a third party site... Buying plat is more like buying Yuan at a Chinese bank - the market is not setting the price)

jai151
06-20-2013, 05:47 PM
This is exactly how it works when you trade currency.

I'll admit I've only had to change currency once, but I wouldn't think that two people in the same line at the same time with different amounts of the same currency would get two different rates because one person is changing more...

In fact, when calculating an exchange through http://www.travelex.com/US/For-Individuals/Products-and-Services/, it would seem to stay the same rate no matter how many zeroes I add or remove

nandus
06-20-2013, 05:50 PM
This discussion is pretty interesting and I wish I had more to share than this, but my 2 cents is basically to support everything nicosharp already wrote and thoroughly explained. From my point of view. a lot of people here seem to come with the idea that Hex is just a better MTGO and that's just not the case. There is a reason why Cory called it "the first MMOTCG" and not just a online TCG, as many others before. Stuff like bonuses to currency purchase is a standard for F2P MMOs, so it doesn't surprise me that somebody already spotted that in the client, it's definitely what I would do. The limits will certainly be fixed from day one, so whatever the conversion rate will be fixed, it will not be a variable. Thus eventually the market will settle into a balanced economy, with a fixed conversion rate, the only thing is that it won't be a simple $1 = 100p and the math will be a little trickier.

Bloodba7h
06-20-2013, 06:00 PM
If you are allowing people to trade Plat to eachother, giving incentives for buying Plat in bulk devalues the currency a touch.

The reason it works in League of Legends is because you can't trade Plat to eachother and it is money that goes back to nothing (discounting account selling which happens infrequently due to the ease of creation, the illegality of it, and the amount of choices of what you can do with their Plat means that there is no incentive to buy RP in bulk and sell it). There is almost no incentive providing a service to other players wherein you buy Plat for other players. In a real, trading economy where Plat can exchange hands, there is a large incentive for people to resell Plat.

I don't think it's entirely out of the question to give incentives for buying in bulk, but one must remain cautious about devaluing the currency via this method. I personally don't wish for a system like this because it would only benefit me if there were absolutely no reason for me to try to get cheaper Plat from another play.

EntropyBall
06-20-2013, 06:01 PM
The second reason I dislike this model is because for Hex, if you want to be involved in PvP at all, you are going to have to put up real money.
...
However, real money is the only way to get involved in that system, so to make one person's dollar less valuable, only because they aren't willing to give in lump sums, makes an already unbalanced system (the more money you put in, the more you get out) even more unbalanced.

This is how most things in the world work though. Look at buying MTG cards. What is cheaper on a per-card basis, buying a pack, a booster, or a case? Why is this a problem in Hex?

Oh no, you say, that's just making bulk purchases of cards cheaper, which is ok. Bulk purchases of money is the problem. Plat buys boosters, so it doesn't much matter whether you discount it in one place or another. Plat also buys draft entry fees, but draft fees are already set at 1 plat, so discounting plat just makes drafting cheaper for everyone.

And yes, I'm aware I'm arguing the opposite side of this from my last post, but I think nicosharp's arguments were sound. Even with 3rd parties buying at the bulk rate and reselling to people via Ebay, that is going to be a small market. I know I wouldn't give up the security of in-game transactions to save 5% on buying plat.

ericsche21
06-20-2013, 06:32 PM
This is how most things in the world work though. Look at buying MTG cards. What is cheaper on a per-card basis, buying a pack, a booster, or a case? Why is this a problem in Hex?

Oh no, you say, that's just making bulk purchases of cards cheaper, which is ok. Bulk purchases of money is the problem. Plat buys boosters, so it doesn't much matter whether you discount it in one place or another. Plat also buys draft entry fees, but draft fees are already set at 1 plat, so discounting plat just makes drafting cheaper for everyone.

And yes, I'm aware I'm arguing the opposite side of this from my last post, but I think nicosharp's arguments were sound. Even with 3rd parties buying at the bulk rate and reselling to people via Ebay, that is going to be a small market. I know I wouldn't give up the security of in-game transactions to save 5% on buying plat.

Actually, discounted plat doesn't make drafting cheaper for everyone, it makes drafting cheaper for those who will buy plat in bulk. Maybe I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that my money instantly becomes less valuable depending on what I want to give at the time. This isn't as big a deal in games like LoL, as I pointed out the value of my dollar doesn't change my advantage in game.

I actually wouldn't be opposed to boosters being sold at a discount if you buy in them in bulk with plat or real money, or a draft reward system where every 20 drafts to partake in, you get one free. But the way I see plat is the way I see money. Plat itself is useless other than to buy other, tangible things, or take part in events. I can't do anything with plat itself, it's just currency. It seems dishonest to me to make me spend real money to buy more fake currency to get it cheaper (because it's stupid not to), and then use that fake currency to buy non-discountable objects that I can actually use. I would rather convert my money the same as everyone else, and then decide if I want to get a discount by buying boosters in bulk, or something like that.

I guess what I'm ultimately saying is that if there is going to be discounts and ways to stretch your money in game, it should be at the last step of the transaction, rather than in the middle. I think that, since those final transactions (boosters, drafts) dictate what you can do in the game, taking a financial loss before you even get to that step doesn't sit well with me.

MatWith1T
06-20-2013, 06:35 PM
This is how most things in the world work though. Look at buying MTG cards. What is cheaper on a per-card basis, buying a pack, a booster, or a case? Why is this a problem in Hex?

Oh no, you say, that's just making bulk purchases of cards cheaper, which is ok. Bulk purchases of money is the problem. Plat buys boosters, so it doesn't much matter whether you discount it in one place or another. Plat also buys draft entry fees, but draft fees are already set at 1 plat, so discounting plat just makes drafting cheaper for everyone.

And yes, I'm aware I'm arguing the opposite side of this from my last post, but I think nicosharp's arguments were sound. Even with 3rd parties buying at the bulk rate and reselling to people via Ebay, that is going to be a small market. I know I wouldn't give up the security of in-game transactions to save 5% on buying plat.

Buying a case of packs makes the packs cheaper. The value of the dollars spent doesn't change. The value of a dollar is determined by a trillion other factors greater than the average cost of a pack of MtG cards. You can use your other dollars to buy anything else, and your dollar will be worth a dollar.

Buying cheaper platinum makes the cost of a pack (and draft entry) cheaper, and it makes the platinum cheaper, making everything else more expensive. Your platinum is no longer worth a dollar, but that rare card in the auction house is still worth $5.

The argument here pretty much splits based on whether you plan to buy the majority of your game items through CZE's in game store, or from other players. And if you plan to sell things yourself. There is clearly a benefit for the first group in bulk discounting. There is clearly a loss to the others.

Edit- just to continue the MtG comparison, because it really does get to the heart of the matter... Why not just request a discount on bulk Hex packs? Thats just like buying a case of cards, whereas platinum bonuses are like asking the ATM to give you extra money just because you are withdrawing a very large amount.

stiii
06-20-2013, 07:06 PM
I'll admit I've only had to change currency once, but I wouldn't think that two people in the same line at the same time with different amounts of the same currency would get two different rates because one person is changing more...

In fact, when calculating an exchange through http://www.travelex.com/US/For-Individuals/Products-and-Services/, it would seem to stay the same rate no matter how many zeroes I add or remove

The site you are using has a minimum order value of $250. In general currency exchange will charge you a flat fee to change money and then remove it if you spend enough.

d00dz
06-20-2013, 07:46 PM
I do not like the discounted platinum model at all.

CZE has said that they do not want to influence the secondary market and if they implement this model, they will have a direct hand in it. Also Hex has a competitive PVP environment and as such heavy trading will occur for top tier cards. The discounted plat model will automatically assume the cheapest possible acquisition price for platinum which I absolutely do not want to happen.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 08:01 PM
I do not like the discounted platinum model at all.

CZE has said that they do not want to influence the secondary market and if they implement this model, they will have a direct hand in it. Also Hex has a competitive PVP environment and as such heavy trading will occur for top tier cards. The discounted plat model will automatically assume the cheapest possible acquisition price for platinum which I absolutely do not want to happen.
For someone so heavily invested in this game, I can see how you would feel this way.
However, I fail to see how the secondary market would be drastically effected, and how this model would lead you to believe CZE has a influence there?
If anything, the only market that will be effected is the 3rd Party Market. Yes, you may lose 10cents on the dollar for what you would have otherwise received, but this is not your game to profit off.

It kind of saddens me to see people treating this game as purely a financial investment, but I guess that is how most TCG's are treated. Digital or not. The only people that win from no bonus plat per dollar are the people trying to flip dollars third party.

You are going to make money regardless.

d00dz
06-20-2013, 08:13 PM
It kind of saddens me to see people treating this game as purely a financial investment, but I guess that is how most TCG's are treated. Digital or not.

That is how TCG's work. I'm an old hand at TCG's (started early in MTG) and am quite happy with how the value of my collection has gone up in over a decade. I am certain that many players feel this way. It is part of the reason why many people play MTG because there is a possible return of investment in addition to the fun from playing. I would be more willing to spend more on top tier cards if I believe that the value will go up over time.

BossHoss
06-20-2013, 08:14 PM
For someone so heavily invested in this game, I can see how you would feel this way.
However, I fail to see how the secondary market would be drastically effected, and how this model would lead you to believe CZE has a influence there?
If anything, the only market that will be effected is the 3rd Party Market. Yes, you may lose 10cents on the dollar for what you would have otherwise received, but this is not your game to profit off.

It kind of saddens me to see people treating this game as purely a financial investment, but I guess that is how most TCG's are treated. Digital or not. The only people that win from no bonus plat per dollar are the people trying to flip dollars third party.

You are going to make money regardless.

All of our reward tiers offer huge values. We are offering standard products at a fraction of the price you would buy them at launch, as well as very cool exclusive cards that will only be available through this Kickstarter (once this campaign ends, these Kickstarter-exclusive cards will never again appear in any future set release). We wanted to make sure that you are not just making a donation to finish the game, we want you to feel like you have made an investment in the online TCG you are going to playing for a very long time.

This is pulled from the front page of the kickstarter and there are others on the website that show CZE knows full well the customer is investing in the future of the game. I also agree with d00dz, but is that because I am heavily invested too? Maybe... Plat needs to stay flat rate for me

Niedar
06-20-2013, 08:21 PM
Seriously, I don't get why people are arguing against this. The only reason there will exist platinum in the game instead of real money is because of legal issues. While legally this is a loophole everyone will still view platinum as real money and its stupid to have bulk currency conversions at a better rate than smaller currency conversions.

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 08:30 PM
All of our reward tiers offer huge values. We are offering standard products at a fraction of the price you would buy them at launch, as well as very cool exclusive cards that will only be available through this Kickstarter (once this campaign ends, these Kickstarter-exclusive cards will never again appear in any future set release). We wanted to make sure that you are not just making a donation to finish the game, we want you to feel like you have made an investment in the online TCG you are going to playing for a very long time.

This is pulled from the front page of the kickstarter and there are others on the website that show CZE knows full well the customer is investing in the future of the game. I also agree with d00dz, but is that because I am heavily invested too? Maybe... Plat needs to stay flat rate for me
What you really should have highlighted was only the word: "Purely"

Yup, I wanted to stop posting here. I know everyone wants this game to be an investment, and the cards will be worth money, but not wanting this kind of system is a fight over nickels and dimes for those foaming at the mouth for third party trade.

It doesn't help promote the game to a larger player base, and it doesn't help promote incentives to all player types.

The more playing, the more money third party traders make. The $2 per pack is already really affordable for a TCG, but for how narrow TCG's have been do you really want to preserve an archaic TCG trade model on the off chance you make more third party from less overall players?

MatWith1T
06-20-2013, 08:33 PM
For someone so heavily invested in this game, I can see how you would feel this way.
However, I fail to see how the secondary market would be drastically effected, and how this model would lead you to believe CZE has a influence there?
If anything, the only market that will be effected is the 3rd Party Market. Yes, you may lose 10cents on the dollar for what you would have otherwise received, but this is not your game to profit off.

It kind of saddens me to see people treating this game as purely a financial investment, but I guess that is how most TCG's are treated. Digital or not. The only people that win from no bonus plat per dollar are the people trying to flip dollars third party.

You are going to make money regardless.

It's not purely financial, but it is a trading card game. Trading cards requires assigning value to cards, to give an approximate determination of a fair trade. You need a common standard of value to assign to cards. For example, we could say a card is worth roughly 20 Battle Hopper cards, 1 Eye of Creation, 15 platinum, $10, three sacks of corn, whatever we want.

We choose dollars because we all have a sense of what a dollar is worth, and because its value is pretty stable. Platinum works the same way until you start discounting it... Because now its value is unstable and we don't know what its worth. The card value remains the same, while platinum is worth less and less as it becomes less reliable as a means of fair trade.

Again, not sure what the perceived benefit is. If you want cheap packs in large numbers, why not as for a bulk pack price? And again, since packs of cards in this game cost less than any other, and CZE practically gave the store away in Kickstarter awards, and the VIP program already exists, why do people think the game requires any further discount?

ericsche21
06-20-2013, 08:36 PM
What you really should have highlighted was only the word: "Purely"

Yup, I wanted to stop posting here. I know everyone wants this game to be an investment, and the cards will be worth money, but not wanting this kind of system is a fight over nickels and dimes for those foaming at the mouth for third party trade.

It doesn't help promote the game to a larger player base, and it doesn't help promote incentives to all player types.

The more playing, the more money third party traders make. The $2 per pack is already really affordable for a TCG, but for how narrow TCG's have been do you really want to preserve an archaic TCG trade model on the off chance you make more third party from less overall players?

It's not about third party though. It's that fact that, unless I give crypto the max amount of money every time I want to buy plat, I am losing money before I actually even buy anything in game. I am losing money to buy something that's sole purpose is to let me buy the stuff to simply play the game. That's like someone telling me that unless I buy 4 copies of WoW, I can only play 80% of the game

nicosharp
06-20-2013, 08:36 PM
discounted plat at a set discounted value based on the highest discounted % is the stable value. It doesn't take a math wizard to figure this out. It might take an extra calculation. If you want to be in business this extra calculation should not scare you or make you think everything is suddenly unstable.

Okay, I give up really. I am wasting my time talking about this. I've done enough econ in school to hate this shiz to begin with. Whatever happens, happens. Forget I ever brought this up.

:D
Thanks for the discussions.

BossHoss
06-20-2013, 08:59 PM
What you really should have highlighted was only the word: "Purely"

Yup, I wanted to stop posting here. I know everyone wants this game to be an investment, and the cards will be worth money, but not wanting this kind of system is a fight over nickels and dimes for those foaming at the mouth for third party trade.

It doesn't help promote the game to a larger player base, and it doesn't help promote incentives to all player types.

The more playing, the more money third party traders make. The $2 per pack is already really affordable for a TCG, but for how narrow TCG's have been do you really want to preserve an archaic TCG trade model on the off chance you make more third party from less overall players?

I find a problem with your proposed solution actually making it worse for the casual gamer... Im very tired from a long day today so going to do my best to describe it...

I mentioned in Yoss` thread about the currency and how the US used to run off the Gold Standard. This created a stable currency...
A stable currency is needed to preserve the value of your collection/investment...
Bulk plat creates a variable that will further separate the casual gamer from the hardcore "investor". I believe you mentioned in another thread you have friends that could only afford 10 dollars at a time. They would not be able to keep up with the integrated inflation caused by "bonus plat".

Ex. Let`s say I maximize my "bonus plat" by buying in $100 increments getting 10 free plat ontop. Now I buy a chase legendary listed at 10 plat your friend wanted, but since I just got 10 free I feel fine paying 15, getting a deal at $5 out of pocket instead of $10. Other sellers notice it sold for 15 and all raise their prices to adjust to false demand and your friend now cannot afford that legendary

Zomnivore
06-20-2013, 11:10 PM
I agree, "bonus" points just inflates the ingame prices to be more expensive and the money you actually spent on the game gets wasted sitting on extra spare points you can't spend without investing even more (that will also get nickel-ed off so you can't spend it all having wasted money starring you in the face..)

Whatever marketing legal bullshit it is that says that's not technically illegal. Its doing that exact thing.

There's a god damned reason why you can't buy 975 points of RP in league of legends, and its all nasty psychological fucker-y to get you to spend more money to get the full use out of the points you have.

EntropyBall
06-20-2013, 11:24 PM
Buying cheaper platinum makes the cost of a pack (and draft entry) cheaper, and it makes the platinum cheaper, making everything else more expensive. Your platinum is no longer worth a dollar, but that rare card in the auction house is still worth $5.

I almost put this counter argument in my original post, since I knew someone would make it. If packs all cost $2, and a card out of those packs is worth $5, then something (like a plat discount) that makes packs cheaper is going to make that card cheaper by the same fraction. Its value is determined by the cost to acquire it and the demand for the card. Only one of those changes when the pack gets 10% cheaper.


We choose dollars because we all have a sense of what a dollar is worth, and because its value is pretty stable. Platinum works the same way until you start discounting it... Because now its value is unstable and we don't know what its worth. The card value remains the same, while platinum is worth less and less as it becomes less reliable as a means of fair trade

This point is just completely wrong. Bulk discounts do not make the value "unstable" unless they repeatedly change the amount of plat you get for your money (which I am completely against, and no one in this thread is arguing for).


It's not about third party though. It's that fact that, unless I give crypto the max amount of money every time I want to buy plat, I am losing money before I actually even buy anything in game. I am losing money to buy something that's sole purpose is to let me buy the stuff to simply play the game. That's like someone telling me that unless I buy 4 copies of WoW, I can only play 80% of the game
This is a fair point, unless you also think its ok for them to offer bulk discounts on cards. If they do that, then you are "losing money" every time you buy cards at less than the booster discount rate.

I simply don't understand how someone can say its a bad idea to bulk discount plat, but a good/acceptable idea to sell booster boxes at a discount. Its the exact same thing, and the advantage of doing at the plat level is that they can have better granularity. If they only want a modest discount for bulk purchases, like 10%, then its easy to just sell 55 Plat for $50. Doing that same thing on the back end would mean buying 10 boosters and getting 1 free and making drafts into a "Buy 10, get 1 free" system. For drafts in particular, this simply wouldn't work, since they would then need a way to track and display it in the UI.

Niedar
06-20-2013, 11:46 PM
Its not actually the same thing, because there is no bulk discount on the AH it would actually be fair on all AH purchases but yes it would still be unfair in the CZE store where you buy boosters which is why I don't support either one of them.

Patrigan
06-20-2013, 11:48 PM
Its not actually the same thing, because there is no bulk discount on the AH it would actually be fair on all AH purchases but yes it would still be unfair in the CZE store where you buy boosters which is why I don't support either one of them.

you don't support bulk discounts on boosters? So you never played a real TCG before then, it's basically a standard there...

Niedar
06-20-2013, 11:50 PM
No I don't support bulk discounts, especially so on something that has no production cost, its a very shitty policy thats is nothing but a fuck you because your have less money to spend then another person.

Patrigan
06-21-2013, 12:14 AM
No I don't support bulk discounts, especially so on something that has no production cost, its a very shitty policy thats is nothing but a fuck you because your have less money to spend then another person.

On the other hand, if people can get a big discount if they buy more, they're more likely to buy more. I always buy my boosters in displays. In fact, I even know people who just buy a case, together with friends. That seriously cuts their costs... Some of them wouldn't buy as much if it wasn't for the big discount.

Likewise, if there's a 50$ discount and I was planning to invest 40$, I will likely increase to 50$ (and just not buy any sode for a while, always works for me)

Niedar
06-21-2013, 12:18 AM
They wouldn't buy as much for two reasons. They don't actually value a pack at retail price because they know if they buy in bulk it is actually cheaper and so why be screwed by paying more per pack and second maybe they feel packs are too expensive to begin with.

Solution: Don't offer a bulk discount and don't overprice what you sell.

Patrigan
06-21-2013, 12:32 AM
They wouldn't buy as much for two reasons. They don't actually value a pack at retail price because they know if they buy in bulk it is actually cheaper and so why be screwed by paying more per pack and second maybe they feel packs are too expensive to begin with.

Solution: Don't offer a bulk discount and don't overprice what you sell.

Did you know that most more casual players seriously don't care about the discount at higher levels? They just buy boosters when they feel like buying one. It's usually only collectors, the high level pros and the people who are looking at it as an "investment" (like a stock exchange). They care about discounts, either because they want it, or because they're afraid of their "value" (in pixels). Casuals like the discounts, makes them happy when they can make a saving for a change, but in general they really don't think about it that much.

It's what makes this (and most similar) threads so stupid. The biggest audience isn't on the forums and I'm fairly certain that this forum is a not a good representation of them. So I wouldn't be surprised that CZE makes some changes after launch that quite a few on these forums won't like...

Niedar
06-21-2013, 12:46 AM
People don't actually like being fucked over because they have less money to spend than someone else. I don't know how you could think so. They might deal with it because they have no choice but how can you actually believe they like it.

Soken
06-21-2013, 12:49 AM
That system is only good when there is no user trading involved. Its horrible when there is a user based economy.

Patrigan
06-21-2013, 01:02 AM
People don't actually like being fucked over because they have less money to spend than someone else. I don't know how you could think so. They might deal with it because they have no choice but how can you actually believe they like it.

But how are they fucked over? If someone is offended that they can't get a discount, then they sure as hell will not like this game. The kickstarter was one big giant discount.

I am certain that most people I know who didn't want to pledge yet (or only contacted me about it after the kickstarter) won't mind that there are discounts. they just like cracking a booster once ina while, buy single cards and then do tournaments / PvE. They're the same kind of people who would trade an expensive epic(mythic) for two cheap rares, just because they want the rare.

Funnily enough there are plenty players out there who play the game for the game and not for the money.

Fireblast
06-21-2013, 02:48 AM
Stable costing structure helps balance the market.

CZE don't need to have bonus on buying platinum and discounts on bulk boosters.

Also they said that our 150 boosters are worth $300 in the KS tiers, that'd be lying if you get 11 boosters for the price of 10...

$2 a booster
$1 = 100 plat

No bulk, bonus, discount, let the players do the discounts on Ebay and AH

Arguments :
- IRL the bulk discounts are not done by CZE but by the other stakeholders of the supply chain
- in other F2P games there are discounts for IG currency because it's for cosmetic stuff / power which CZE aren't selling in HEX.

~

Patrigan
06-21-2013, 04:09 AM
Stable costing structure helps balance the market.

CZE don't need to have bonus on buying platinum and discounts on bulk boosters.

Also they said that our 150 boosters are worth $300 in the KS tiers, that'd be lying if you get 11 boosters for the price of 10...

$2 a booster
$1 = 100 plat

No bulk, bonus, discount, let the players do the discounts on Ebay and AH

Arguments :
- IRL the bulk discounts are not done by CZE but by the other stakeholders of the supply chain
- in other F2P games there are discounts for IG currency because it's for cosmetic stuff / power which CZE aren't selling in HEX.

~

Have they already said you won't be able to buy Sleeves or similar stuff?

jai151
06-21-2013, 04:37 AM
Have they already said you won't be able to buy Sleeves or similar stuff?

Yes. Multiple times they've stated they will only sell boosters, starters, and tournament fees.

Patrigan
06-21-2013, 04:43 AM
Yes. Multiple times they've stated they will only sell boosters, starters, and tournament fees.

I've seen one announcement like this, which basically stated they wouldn't be selling single cards, no mention of sleeves and other cosmetic items. Can you point me to one?

In general, why wouldn't they sell sleeves and other cosmetic items? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't, they don't directly affect the gameplay and it's an easy way to make some extra money (because people will cough up if hey like the sleeve)

Chiany
06-21-2013, 04:45 AM
I've seen one announcement like this, which basically stated they wouldn't be selling single cards, no mention of sleeves and other cosmetic items. Can you point me to one?

In general, why wouldn't they sell sleeves and other cosmetic items? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't, they don't directly affect the gameplay and it's an easy way to make some extra money (because people will cough up if hey like the sleeve)

They could do it with standard sleeves, however better looking sleeves, cosmetics etc. will mostlikely be included in the treasure chests.

Gotta collect them all kinda thing.

Willzyx
06-21-2013, 04:48 AM
In general, why wouldn't they sell sleeves and other cosmetic items? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't, they don't directly affect the gameplay and it's an easy way to make some extra money (because people will cough up if hey like the sleeve)

Because (as Cory said somewhere) they want to treat sleeves as cool rewards for *doing* stuff and participating in the game. Sleeves are, largely, going to be a way to show off that you were involved, not that you have money.

I recognize the irony of this given kickstarter sleeves, but that's and exception to the rule. And an understandable exception, I'd say.

Fireblast
06-21-2013, 04:59 AM
Kickstarter rewards are gifts and not purchases :p

~

jai151
06-21-2013, 05:00 AM
I've seen one announcement like this, which basically stated they wouldn't be selling single cards, no mention of sleeves and other cosmetic items. Can you point me to one?

In general, why wouldn't they sell sleeves and other cosmetic items? I can't see any reason why they wouldn't, they don't directly affect the gameplay and it's an easy way to make some extra money (because people will cough up if hey like the sleeve)

Check the Angry Joe interview, I believe it's stated quite clearly in there.

EDIT: Right around the 26-27 minute mark, and it takes several minutes for the full answer, Cory tends to ramble.

EDIT 2, clearer answer: http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/31/hex-bringing-trading-card-games-into-the-digital-age

"We’re not trying to monetise this with ‘power’, or your ability to play whatever else. The only things that we’re going to be selling are packs of cards, starter decks and this VIP programme that for $4 a month will give you a pack a week that’s of $8 value, and also give you access to a special VIP tournament, and some other little fun cosmetic functionality things.”

Arbiter
06-21-2013, 06:26 AM
While I agree offering a bonus for platinum does not affect the internal market, only the cash out value, it does make things look a little worse for the casual player (although I agree bulk bonuses are everywhere and they raise little complaint) and makes the slacker backer seem an even worse deal.

If this bonus is applied to platinum, however, it must be applied to boosters at the same level. If booster drafts cost $7 plat or 3 boosters + $1 in plat then, if the bonus is much more than 15%, the cheapest way to buy boosters will become entering a draft, as your full draft cost would be below your retail price for three boosters. And if you are only interested in the boosters, you won't be trying in the draft, just grabbing the cards and going.

Fireblast
06-21-2013, 06:28 AM
Stable costing structure helps balance the market.

CZE don't need to have bonus on buying platinum and discounts on bulk boosters.

Also they said that our 150 boosters are worth $300 in the KS tiers, that'd be lying if you get 11 boosters for the price of 10...

$2 a booster
$1 = 100 plat

No bulk, bonus, discount, let the players do the discounts on Ebay and AH

Arguments :
- IRL the bulk discounts are not done by CZE but by the other stakeholders of the supply chain
- in other F2P games there are discounts for IG currency because it's for cosmetic stuff / power which CZE aren't selling in HEX.

~

Stop speculating and read those arguments please.

~

ramseytheory
06-21-2013, 07:09 AM
I don't remember the source, but I remember Cory saying the reason they weren't selling sleeves and other vanity items was that they wanted to make them all cool freebies from either playing the game or opening boosters.

ericsche21
06-21-2013, 07:15 AM
Perhaps the following two examples better illustrate the flaws I see with a variable platinum conversion. I also preface that these arguments are based around being able to PvP.

Look at your online bank account. Those numbers tell you how much money you own that is held by the bank. Now obviously the cost of what you can buy with that money fluctuates, but that bank account number will never decrease unless you decide to use it for something. Now let’s imagine a situation where places only accept paper currency for goods and services. So while you have all those numbers in your bank account, you need to turn them into physical dollars (platinum in Hex’s case) to actually do anything. So you go to your bank, and they facilitate that transaction.

One problem though, is that as soon as you turn that digital money into physical money, that physical money instantly loses value. Why? Because, unlike the real world, you cannot put that paper money back into the bank at the same conversion you took withdrew it at. Instead, you are now stuck forever with that paper money that is useless by itself except to facilitate transactions for goods and services. Now, let’s say there is a way to put money back into your bank account, but you don’t do it through a bank, you do it through a third party which has the risk of actually just stealing your paper money and not turning it into digital money. And even if you find a trustworthy way to do it, you will be charged for the service. So, by doing nothing other than turning your digital money in to paper money, and then back out again, you are losing money. And this is before you even buy anything. I have no problem with this system so far, just making it clear that from the moment the money leaves my bank account to become currency I can actually use, it has already lost value because I cannot get it back without paying more.

Now, let’s say another wrinkle to the system is that the amount of paper currency I receive depends on how much I want to withdraw at a given time. Hypothetically, if I take out 1 dollar from my bank account, it becomes 1 physical dollar bill. If I take out $100 from my bank account, it becomes $120 physical dollar bills. Because this is the best conversion of digital money to physical money, if I only take out 1 dollar that dollar is actually only worth .84. So if I’m going to exchange my money, it’s foolish to do it at any conversion other than the best one, cause I am again losing money before I even use it.

Additionally, the vendors I will then trade my physical money with understand this conversion rate, and set their prices higher because they know that some people are getting free currency and will be willing to pay a bit extra. So not only is the guy who doesn’t want to convert his currency in bulk taking an additional loss right at conversion, he also needs to pay more for goods and services than he would under a static conversion system.

So before I even actually get to buy something useful, I am taking one guaranteed financial loss, and mostly likely a second, before I can actually do anything in PvP.

The second example is far less lengthy, but is regarding rewards for spending more money. Using casinos as an example, there you trade your money for chips, and you need to use your chips to actually do any gambling. Again, fine so far. Also in casinos, normally people who gamble a lot at the tables (play the game) get rewards of some sort (comp’d rooms, free meals, whatever). So if two guys sit down to play craps, and one guy only plays 10 dollars of chips, and a second guy plays 250, and gets a free breakfast, that’s fine. However, you get this benefit while actually playing the games. You don’t get this reward just because you handed the money changer more money at the start and want to walk around with more chips. Changing money shouldn’t get you more benefits in game, committing that money to the game should get you more benefits in the game.

Anyways, apologies for the length, but I am enjoying these discussions, and as I’ve said before, I have no problem with variable conversion rates for games like LoL, I just do not think they fit well for Hex

nicosharp
06-21-2013, 08:00 AM
"We’re not trying to monetise this with ‘power’, or your ability to play whatever else. The only things that we’re going to be selling are packs of cards, starter decks and this VIP programme that for $4 a month will give you a pack a week that’s of $8 value, and also give you access to a special VIP tournament, and some other little fun cosmetic functionality things.”
Does Platinum appear out of thin air?

They will also be selling plat. It is up to them to decide the exchange rate.

A set exchange rate, whether a bonus or no bonus is applied, has nothing to do with selling power.

jai151
06-21-2013, 08:02 AM
Does Platinum appear out of thin air?

They will also be selling plat. It is up to them to decide the exchange rate.

A set exchange rate, whether a bonus or no bonus is applied, has nothing to do with selling power.

That has absolutely nothing to do with selling sleeves, mats, etc, which is what the post you quoted was responding to.

nicosharp
06-21-2013, 08:11 AM
That has absolutely nothing to do with selling sleeves, mats, etc, which is what the post you quoted was responding to.

I wasn't saying you didn't know that. Because it is obvious.
The reason I said the above is they did not mention "everything" they would be selling. There is a enough reason to believe down the line, they may offer cosmetic perks to players that want to purchase it. Regardless of what they say now, the MMO side of the game offers more opportunities for CZE to profit. It may be against their vision, but you can't put it past a company to consider it a year or two down the road.

jai151
06-21-2013, 08:16 AM
I wasn't saying you didn't know that. Because it is obvious.
The reason I said the above is they did not mention "everything" they would be selling. There is a enough reason to believe down the line, they may offer cosmetic perks to players that want to purchase it. Regardless of what they say now, the MMO side of the game offers more opportunities for CZE to profit. It may be against their vision, but you can't put it past a company to consider it a year or two down the road.

I'd say "The only things we're going to be selling" is a pretty definite "No" on cosmetic perks down the line.

Platinum is not being sold. It's a currency, not a product.

And going against the vision, breaking your word to the fans, that's just bad juju.

Yoss
06-21-2013, 09:20 AM
Also they said that our 150 boosters are worth $300 in the KS tiers, that'd be lying if you get 11 boosters for the price of 10...
This bears repeating, and applies to ANY discount program they might put in place beyond what's already been revealed.

BossHoss
06-21-2013, 09:29 AM
And going against the vision, breaking your word to the fans, that's just bad juju.

Xbox one... eighty? [cough] [cough]... because they turned around

jai151
06-21-2013, 09:32 AM
Xbox one... eighty? [cough] [cough]... because they turned around

There's a difference between acquiescing to pressure and diving for money. The Xbox "features" were never exactly a promise to the fans =P

BossHoss
06-21-2013, 09:46 AM
There's a difference between acquiescing to pressure and diving for money. The Xbox "features" were never exactly a promise to the fans =P

Ya I know, just wanted to throw a jab in there lol

nicosharp
06-21-2013, 09:59 AM
This bears repeating, and applies to ANY discount program they might put in place beyond what's already been revealed.
Retail value is not the same as actual value or purchasable price. There is still some flexibility there.
This is a big grey area. A lot of people have strong feelings against this from the community. I personally don't, but would be fine either way CZE plays it.