PDA

View Full Version : You should protect us from Manaflood/Manascrew !



ChampionVital
06-20-2013, 07:42 AM
Going back to the first video I want to note: I did not see the mechanism preventing Manaflood/Manascrew
But without a doubt, these aspects are very important for the game.
Not a secret as it is in mtgo, 30 minutes draft, 10 minutes deckbuild, 10 minutes game1 - won, 10 minutes game2 manaflood - loss, 10 minutes game3 manascrew - loss ...
And after all this, you ask yourself the question, what I was doing there 70 min ???
Do not forget that Manaflood/Manascrew has an effect on any stage of the match
So, what is yours plan to protect us from this evil ?!

Idea: paying attention to similar games we can see how everyone is trying to extract resource-cards from the deck
for example, in hex ​​each turn mana added automatically; The same principle would be nice to be applied to resources

"At the beginning of every draw card from deck":
For each Resourse type present in deck do {
if player dont have Resourse in hand, then draw Resourse
}
"Draw step":
draw non-Resourse card

As a result, the player hand will always be sufficient resource for play ! No more screw or flood.
From Player deck will be excluded all resource-cards.
instead, the deck will be added by number of resources (mana-symbols) on a Cards immediately prior battle

This way or other way, but you have to protect players from Manaflood\Manascrew !

jai151
06-20-2013, 07:48 AM
This is not the first time this issue has been brought up.

Any system to end-around the mana issue is prone to horrible abuse and the game is far too late in development to go back and change the resource model. What we have is what we have.

The_Shatner
06-20-2013, 07:49 AM
They have said that after trying this sort of system in WoW TCG that it just produces it's own evil; instead of hoping for the perfect mana curve-out without flooding you instead need the perfect mana cost curve-out on your hand. It produced a game which almost always ended on the same turn, and in general made the player deal with less interesting situations.

BossHoss
06-20-2013, 07:51 AM
This is not the first time this issue has been brought up.

Any system to end-around the mana issue is prone to horrible abuse and the game is far too late in development to go back and change the resource model. What we have is what we have.

I got your back...

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24639&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24167&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24371&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24517&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24517&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24623&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24828&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24849&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24849&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24682&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25079&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25163&highlight=mana+screw

Etc.

Random360
06-20-2013, 07:51 AM
Don't forget that your champion will have abilities that they can use after getting charged from playing lands, that should help a little bit.

At the end of the day you just have to accept that lady luck might punish you in a game or two.

Barkam
06-20-2013, 07:51 AM
The game mitigated Manaflood with your champion getting charges they can use as you play resources. There is no mitigation for Manascrew. CZE wants the randomness to make is so that you cannot win every time. Reason for this is because they don't want people to be discouraged when playing against people that are more skilled than them. There is hope for them to win through sheer luck. Not my preference but the only digital game that has this depth and that has PvE.

Thus, decks in Hex will be built to have more resources than MtG.

ConnorJS
06-20-2013, 07:51 AM
They haven't put anything in for a reason, manaflood and manascrew keep a game exciting. It also encourages strategic deckbuilding rather than a static, predictable model.

Facilier
06-20-2013, 07:53 AM
Welcome to the forums. Would be better to avoid exclamation marks in discussion thread titles, and perhaps to search if this was discussed previously.

If you are guaranteed to always have the perfect mana curve that just changes the luck element from the potential to mana screw to the potential to curve screw, where the person who doesn't have their 5 and 6 drops on turn 5 and 6 will lose to the one who does.

The Hex system also alleviates mana flood by having each resource played add a charge to your hero, making a land a profitable play.

Finally some luck-based losses and wins are required yo broaden the appeal of the game. Players who aren't very good will stay with the game if they win sometimes, and are more likely to quit if they just always get crushed by a better player. Good players can reduce the random loss chances by building a good mana base and mulliganing correctly.

KaosSoul
06-20-2013, 07:53 AM
i like how your trying to prevent mana screw by mana flooding, your pseudo code means Each turn you put a mana on the board, even past turn 6 you might need cards to play but you dont have mana in your hand this 100% gain mana, its flawed and a bit rediculous, to work a decent pseudo code youd need to factor in the number of mana on the board versus the mana you need and thats for mono color, the final code would be extensive and would take too long to run for no reasons, if you get mana screwed/manaflooded, you need to ramp up your mana better perhaps? i played many games of MTG and at best 5% of them this happens? you deal with it like a grown up adult and think that i can happen on either side of the board, TCG are not all about the best cards, there is luck of draw, thats whats making it a beautifull game and not a weird ass ipad ccg

snarvid
06-20-2013, 07:59 AM
The threshold system is also structured to somewhat mitigate screw while still incurring a cost for going multicolor.

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 08:05 AM
This is not the first time this issue has been brought up.

Any system to end-around the mana issue is prone to horrible abuse and the game is far too late in development to go back and change the resource model. What we have is what we have.

The only way I would put my backing behind mana protection, is if everytime it "procced" and thus helped you gain mana/not over gain mana, Princess cory in a cape appears on the screen saying "I SHALL PROTECT YOU MY KING".

Rtsands45
06-20-2013, 08:11 AM
This stuff happens. If it didn't we would live in magical Christmas land. Build a proper resource base and properly mulligan.

Ju66ernaut
06-20-2013, 08:24 AM
Hey guys, can we change the rules of poker?
I was playing a tournament last week and I lost because I didn't get enough aces in my hand.
Please make it a rule that we all get aces in our first draw.

Sorry for trolling.

The request set forth by the OP kills me. I play TCG's because I love both the skill challenge and the gamble. Asking for any card progression to be set is on the same level as asking to stack your deck before entering an encounter, in my eyes. We are creatures of evolution. We adapt! And sometimes we're screwed, it's a known risk when you start a game. If you want to play a game exclusively centered around skill, you can try chess. If you want to be judged on skill, adaptation, and a little luck, please join us in playing this incredible TCG! :)

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 08:59 AM
You know, it really kind of bothers me the amount of threads I see about this talking about manascrew/manaflood as if it is an inherently bad aspect of game design. Some of the core aspects of TCG's are building your deck and playing your deck. Part of building your deck is to analyze the cards you want to include and decide what the appropriate amount of mana you want to have in your deck is. Doing this properly reduces the amount of times you get screwed/flooded. If you get screwed/flooded a lot, it should be a clue to re-evalute your deck because it doesn't work. Thus, manascrew/manaflood is a vital tool for deckbuilding. Then, you have the deck playing portion of the game. This is all centered around your skill as a player to take the cards you are given and do the best you can with them. Sure, statistically, everyone will get manascrewed/flooded at some point playing even the perfect deck, that is part of the randomness of TCG's. If that randomness bothers you, maybe you are playing the wrong game.

DreamPuppet
06-20-2013, 09:38 AM
Imagine playing poker with every single card face up. What would be interesting about that?

If a game would take out the randomness of the whole mana problems it would just end up in almost every single game ending up looking exactly the same. If youre never in danger of missing your drops then it's boring.

RobHaven
06-20-2013, 09:51 AM
If you want to play a game exclusively centered around skill, you can try chess.

I don't like the insinuation that TCGs aren't a skill-based game. Deckbuilding is, itself, a skill. Knowing how to properly stock your deck is a part of the game. So is knowing how and when to mulligan. So is knowing how to manage your charges (presumably).
Is luck involved? Sure. Sometimes you have the perfect sequence of draws; sometimes your draws make you absolutely certain that if there is a god, he hates you and wishes only the worst for you. But in between those statistical outliers, we have a standard game where luck will play some part, but the impact of luck is reduced by and far less important than your skill in the game's many components.

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 09:55 AM
I don't like the insinuation that TCGs aren't a skill-based game. Deckbuilding is, itself, a skill. Knowing how to properly stock your deck is a part of the game. So is knowing how and when to mulligan. So is knowing how to manage your charges (presumably).
Is luck involved? Sure. Sometimes you have the perfect sequence of draws; sometimes your draws make you absolutely certain that if there is a god, he hates you and wishes only the worst for you. But in between those statistical outliers, we have a standard game where luck will play some part, but the impact of luck is reduced by and far less important than your skill in the game's many components.

This. Remember all stats are a bell curve. You cannot judge something on the 5% outliers.

Also, even the greatest draw in the world with bad skill, can lose to a bad draw with a top player. And yes, there is skill in deck building, when to mulligan, how to play the deck, and so on. So there is a lot of skill. It just isn't purely skill (like chess) which has no luck involved. And its the luck factor that drives me to lovin TCGs

BohemianStalker
06-20-2013, 10:00 AM
I got your back...

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24639&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24167&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24371&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24517&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24517&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24623&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24828&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24849&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24849&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24682&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25079&highlight=mana+screw
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25163&highlight=mana+screw

Etc.

this 100x

Phearbot
06-20-2013, 10:10 AM
Stop complain 'bout mana screw... and learn to build a deck...
If ur are total garbage then search for some preconstructive deck and go for it.

btw I LOVE MANA SCREW, it's the difference between a good deck builder and a failer one!
Yeah sometime u could be very unlucky, but that's a game after all, luck-unluck... always there.

RobHaven
06-20-2013, 10:31 AM
Stop complain 'bout mana screw... and learn to build a deck...
If ur are total garbage then search for some preconstructive deck and go for it.

btw I LOVE MANA SCREW, it's the difference between a good deck builder and a failer one!
Yeah sometime u could be very unlucky, but that's a game after all, luck-unluck... always there.

Failer grammar aside, I think these points have already been made in a far more positive and constructive manner. Threads get shut down when they resort to personal attacks - maybe we can avoid them?

Malakili
06-20-2013, 10:36 AM
Make better decks. Manascrew can hose you in a particular game or match, but you need to look at the big picture. Good decks beat worse decks and good players beat worse players when it comes to longer time scales.

Xelinor
06-20-2013, 10:37 AM
You know, it really kind of bothers me the amount of threads I see about this talking about manascrew/manaflood as if it is an inherently bad aspect of game design. Some of the core aspects of TCG's are building your deck and playing your deck. Part of building your deck is to analyze the cards you want to include and decide what the appropriate amount of mana you want to have in your deck is. Doing this properly reduces the amount of times you get screwed/flooded. If you get screwed/flooded a lot, it should be a clue to re-evalute your deck because it doesn't work. Thus, manascrew/manaflood is a vital tool for deckbuilding. Then, you have the deck playing portion of the game. This is all centered around your skill as a player to take the cards you are given and do the best you can with them. Sure, statistically, everyone will get manascrewed/flooded at some point playing even the perfect deck, that is part of the randomness of TCG's. If that randomness bothers you, maybe you are playing the wrong game.

This. Oh good god this. I have nothing further to add, other then +1 internets to you sir/madam.

keroko
06-20-2013, 10:50 AM
do not take aspect of land balance from deck construction - you can push either way for luck / tuning on your deck based on the card cost ramp.

its a very big part of the game. its been simplified enough with non-permanents contributing to pools from your hand which appear (as far as we know?) untargetable.

Sholynyk
06-20-2013, 11:24 AM
There are ways to build our deck around mana screw or mana burn. I created a 60 card deck in magic which only contained 12 mana cards. Yet the deck worked perfectly. Only ever had to mulligan once to make sure I had enough to play the whole game and would generally win by turn five or six. And to protect yourself from both, just go with a pack raptor deck. Needs one wild gem "mana" to play and creates a crap ton more pack raptors and shuffles them into your deck. That way you are constantly reducing the rate of mana you draw the longer your game goes and you only need two or three mana to send a horse of vicious raptors to destroy someone and everyone they hold dear.

Rtsands45
06-20-2013, 11:36 AM
The only way to protect against manaflood/manascrew is to be proactive and protect yourself. There are many articles online about deckbuilding theory. I recommend you Google a few of them and read up to prepare yourself for the launch.

Ju66ernaut
06-20-2013, 12:58 PM
I don't like the insinuation that TCGs aren't a skill-based game.





If you want to be judged on skill, adaptation, and a little luck, please join us in playing this incredible TCG! :)

Thanks for reading my entire post.

Rapkannibale
06-20-2013, 02:43 PM
Even though mana screw/flood happens it doesn't happen that often especially if you pay attention when deck building. It sucks when it happens to you but try to take a big picture view on it. The fact that anybody can get mana screwed means that even new players can hope to beat experienced players. This is a very imprortant thing if you want to be able to grow the player base.

Of course that is not the only luck aspect of games like Hex and Magic, but it is a part of it. Magic is still an incredibly popular game even though it has these "issues". As others have mentioned Hex somewhat mitigates the effects of mana flood and we can only hope it becomes as popular as Magic, :)

MugenMusou
06-20-2013, 03:19 PM
I was somewhat on the same boat as OP but did more research, and now actually convinced that mana screw (if really happens) is bad but it is a effect/risk you pay to achieve more fun part of the game.

http://houshasen.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/%E3%80%90hex%E3%80%91-why-resource-screw/

Prism
06-20-2013, 04:17 PM
NO. Build a proper deck and you will rarely have 'mana screw'. Don't try to ruin the game just because you suck. I've gone to huge international tournaments for MTG only to have gotten mana screwed to the 0.005%th degree and lose in the final rounds. I still would not wish for the game to be worsened by non-land based resource systems. TCGs without land are horribly inferior. I don't really like their system of threshold but that should be far more than enough to satisfy the casuals