PDA

View Full Version : Xbox one?



Rtsands45
06-20-2013, 08:34 AM
Anyone see the backpedalling effort MS is putting in to save the Xbox one. They are giving people the ability to freely sell used games again and it won't have to do the 24hr check in, meaning you won't have to play online. Thoughts anyone?

ConnorJS
06-20-2013, 08:45 AM
Anyone see the backpedalling effort MS is putting in to save the Xbox one. They are giving people the ability to freely sell used games again and it won't have to do the 24hr check in. Thoughts anyone?

My thought is if they didn't do this they wouldn't have ANY sales, it's obvious they were gunna do it. Microsoft are evil and should never be trusted, even if they act nice. The fact they even thought they'd get away with stealing like that amazes me :L

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 08:49 AM
Well, they got rid of some of the negatives to the console, so at the very least I am now considering buying one eventually. They still have the required Kinect, the 500GB HDD that is non-replaceable, and the $100 higher price tag for inferior hardware, plus the apparent ease that they made this reversal begs the question "What is to stop them from re-introducing it later?" Of course, there whole rationale of "we are removing a few of the things you hate, so we absolutely have to remove a few of the things you liked as well, because there is no possible way they could ever exist separately" kind of bothers me as well. Feels to me like Microsoft is being a bit childish about it. We'll see what happens over the next few months, as Microsoft (hopefully) gets some clear, concise information out to us.

keroko
06-20-2013, 08:50 AM
the licensing model would have ended the gamestop nonsense - where a copy is sold 1x then resold many times at no return to the dev, publisher or anyone but gamestop.

the resale market is a leech on the business side, in a huge way.

that's not to say devs/publishers shouldnt adapt to the conditions in play and charge for other things more - like DLC at day 1, or online passes etc. but gamers dont want those expensive things either.

gamers are a ludicrously finickity bunch. They'll complain to high heaven how they cannot effectively steal from dev shops / publishers, yet they'll be super-surprised when dev shops drop like flies.

they were also gonna let you make mini-libraries with your 10 bestest besties, where you could all share games. if you consider the nature of a flexible group of 10 folk and its effective reach for sharing games with a micro-community it's pretty impressive. that would have been awesome.

this tv nonsense is just that in that it requires a cable box hook in (this is 2013 dammit) - and the architectural costs of running 2VM + hypervisor in a realtime 3d rendering scenario is clever yes, but likely performs less well than Sony's which lacks that significant overhead. We do not know about the real impact of on chip GPU and a very large cache on the xboxone CPU. the perf comparisons are hard to accurately determine at this point for the uninformed like me.

MSFT has some of the most awful senior executive spokespeople possible right now - things like telling a submariner that they'd just be better off going to fuck themselves and play a 360 was obscene.

check out this interview. while mr. joe might indeed not be an engineer / developer, 'major nelson' is clearly far from one aswell.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6RtSGFryKwo

Qorsair
06-20-2013, 08:57 AM
Still requires Kinect, and costs $100 more than PS4.
Also, I don't like the attitude of "Well, if you force us to change things, we can't keep the good things either." They still have the digital distribution available, they should keep the cloud features (family sharing, 1 permanent digital trade, access your library from anywhere) for digital purchases, and the discs can still work the way they do now. That seems like a more logical transition.

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 09:14 AM
@Keroko, I have to disagree with you completely about your stance on used games. The ability to buy and sell used games is, in my opinion, vital to the success of the console game industry in it's current form. Removing the ability to buy games used and you are left with having to buy them new for $60 a pop, or hoping you get lucky and find an old "new" copy of a game that just didn't sell yet. You complain about 1 game being resold multiple times as if this is somehow hurting the dev's/publishers, when in actuality it isn't hurting them at all, because in order for that game to be sold used, it had to first be sold new. That means that the dev's/pub's already made their profit on that game. Why should they be able to make a profit on the sale of 1 individual item multiple times?

In all honesty, I feel that if it weren't for the used game market, console gaming as a whole would have died out years ago. Sure, some people can, and willing do, shell out $500-600 for a new console, and then $60 a pop for every single game they play on that console, but I would venture to guess that they probably only buy a few games for a console total. Then you have people like me, who buy some games new, when they really appeal to me and I feel they are worth the $60, and some games used, when I am only partially interested or I don't think they warrant the $60 price tag. Now, when I buy a used game, I am not taking any money from a developer or a publisher, they already made their money on the sale of that game.

People act like Gamestop and the like are some huge, money sucking evil on the gaming community, when all they really do is provide a place to get access to most, if not all, games when they are new and provide a centralized location and system for buying games from other gamers. If developers and publishers want to make more new game sales and less used game sales, the solution is most definitely not to piss off your customer base by shutting down used games. The solution is actually quite simple, either make games that more people feel are worth $60, or sell them for less to begin with. If you are selling a POS game, don't try and sell it for $60 and then act shocked that few people buy it new.

taveren
06-20-2013, 09:16 AM
having gamestop around increases new game sales as well as used we push for reserves and what not all the time on new stuff but having used is nice since you can still find games you can't get new anymore. thought i do wish we gave a piece of the used game sales back to the developers if even like 5 dollars a game. a good way to do it is to use online codes on every game but have game stop also give out those codes automatically so it doesn't change the price to the consumer but the developers could track how many used ones were sold.

thought i did like nintendos answer when asked what they would do about used games they said we want to make the best games possible so more people would keep them instead of trading

Mushroom_C1oud
06-20-2013, 10:09 AM
The possibilities with cloud gaming and kinect features are an evolutionary step in multiple medias.

Using voice interaction with a game pad open up huge possibilities with gaming. Search features with voice command also reduces time it takes to using a game pad to select characters. Head and eye tracking can also be implemented.

Cloud gaming allows Microsoft's new 300,000 strong server base to process information your XBO doesn't need to. Take Titanfall for instance, it is using all it's AI algorithms on the server side freeing up space on the Xbox CPU. I also like the fact that I never have to worry about changing out a game disc again. Same day digital will be the only way I will buy games, same as I do with my steam games on my PC. I have no issues with publishers using DRM, I just want to play the game that's why I bought it.

If I wanted a console for just playing games I wouldn't buy one, I'd use my PC, which is why I won't get a PS4 because my PC already does it better. I will buy the XBO because I will use it as my entertainment center in my living room. I love the fact I can quickly switch between gaming, skyping, and watching TV. If I'm stuck on a game I can now watch the YouTube how-to while playing the game on the same screen.

I have 3 Xboxes in my house currently with 5 users including myself. I used to pay $20 a month for two cable boxes but FiOS has an app on the Xbox so my kids can watch TV or watch Netflix in separate areas. I bought 2 Xboxes at $150 each and they both paid themselves off already. With the new XBO we will be able to share our entire gaming library for all household members along with the benefits of TV watching.

Personally I'm really excited to see what innovations developers come up with using both the cloud and kinect. I would like to be able to shop for clothes without having to leave the living room but actually see what they look like on me.

The one thing I'm really glad they changed though was the ability to play games offline. Some games will just require you be online, such as Titanfall, but there are times when the internet is down or you just don't have access to it. I've deployed before and one of my favorite things to do during my down time was play my Xbox. Internet was shoddy at best if even available.

Avedecus
06-20-2013, 10:11 AM
People act like Gamestop and the like are some huge, money sucking evil on the gaming community

Have you ever worked at a Gamestop? Defend the process of buying and reselling used games all you want, but don't try to pretend for a second that Gamestop isn't in fact a huge, money sucking evil corporate monolith.

Xintia
06-20-2013, 10:13 AM
Not that I agree with DRM in general, but I find it interesting that people complained so much about these policies regarding Xbox One when Steam has been doing something similar for PC's for years. And I would wager that many of us, myself included, have Steam accounts. :P

The_Dryad
06-20-2013, 10:33 AM
My thought is if they didn't do this they wouldn't have ANY sales, it's obvious they were gunna do it. Microsoft are evil and should never be trusted, even if they act nice. The fact they even thought they'd get away with stealing like that amazes me :L

Really "any"? While that may be a huge stretch, first place is clearly Microsoft's to lose since they left both the PS3 and the Wii in the dust. And as far as Microsoft being evil... do you think that Sony announced what they announced out of the kindness of their hearts? No they are a for profit business just like Microsoft and they knew that announcement would kick Microsoft while they were down, so is Sony evil too? Heck they might not of even written their E3 Press Release until Microsoft gave theirs! It's business, it's what businesses do, you try to outdo the other guy.


for inferior hardware

Inferior? Why do people keep saying this? It's the same exact hardware as the PS4... line item for line item with ONE exception: The RAM in the PS4 is faster... :p


People act like Gamestop and the like are some huge, money sucking evil on the gaming community, when all they really do is provide a place to get access to most, if not all, games when they are new and provide a centralized location and system for buying games from other gamers.

I never buy used games. Why? Because for the $5 savings off of a $60 game I'd rather buy it new. Seriously, you want to talk about evil? Gamestop is it! You buy a $60 game new, beat it in a weekend and then go trade it in for $20 (If you're lucky) and then they turn around and sell it for $55!

-

I'm not sure why people are all bent out of shape about how the Xbox One was a week ago, Steam has been doing this same thing for YEARS on the PC. Buy a game brand new, day one for $60 and not have the ability to lend it out or resell it... it's not that big a deal. Microsoft was, I believe, just trying to bring that same sort of convenience to Xbox owners. But now, they have listened to their the people complaining and now they're getting harassed for changing their policy to the way people wanted - there is no winning with some people!

GreyGriffin
06-20-2013, 10:35 AM
I really desperately hope the Xbox doesn't die an ignominious death, because debacles like this have forced Sony's hand. Without a second major console on the scene, you can bet dollars to donuts that Sony would be pulling the same crap.

Temig
06-20-2013, 10:49 AM
I'll be getting a PS4, but with these changes Microsoft is at least taking a step in the right direction. Also, lets keep it realistic and call the price difference $40 since the PS4 Camera will be an additional $60 and not included as with the XBone. I'm anticipating the added functionality developers come up with for the camera will make it a worthwhile purchase eventually.

$40 is still nearly 10% higher than the corresponding cost of PS4 + camera so the difference is more than negligible. In my opinion, Sony is still pretty firmly in the lead at this point, but only time will tell for sure.

Mushroom_C1oud
06-20-2013, 10:50 AM
It sounds like it was Gamestop that forced Microsoft's hand by stopping reservations not the players.

http://slumz.boxden.com/f13/rumor-gamestop-no-longer-taking-xbox-one-pre-orders-1940919/

ZeroCool
06-20-2013, 10:56 AM
I've already preordered 2.

keroko
06-20-2013, 10:59 AM
Still requires Kinect, and costs $100 more than PS4.
Also, I don't like the attitude of "Well, if you force us to change things, we can't keep the good things either." They still have the digital distribution available, they should keep the cloud features (family sharing, 1 permanent digital trade, access your library from anywhere) for digital purchases, and the discs can still work the way they do now. That seems like a more logical transition.

tbh, i think there was an element of giving the middle finger to the consumer - 'you don't like our vision, well stay stuck in the past then'.

MS did very poor job from the outset at communicating the licensing strategy - they should have done outreach to developer shops years ago to discuss this transition of how we do business in the console gaming marketplace. They also should have realized that many are hardwired to hate MSFT.

however, there are infrastructure costs involved in the serving of entire game content even for download on a worldwide basis. It'd have been high usage aswell, people deleting and installing games from their libraries and those of friends with space constraints of the local system.

MSFT eliminated those costs. so they 'gave us what we want' - which is the ability to continue to steal dressed up as 'sharing'.

the whole word 'experience' - you pay a license for the 'experience'. that's what we're moving to. the experience can change, and will not exist in perpetuity.

I think what this rollback / change really represents is the definite strength of internal disagreement with the original plan. There is no way this didn't come up, that engineers at MSFT didnt advise against it.

My guess is that there was an implicit or even verbal agreement between sony and MSFT to approach licensing the way they tried to - and sony backstabbed.

both corps would have made more money if they'd adopted a 1 sell on and that copy's spent - drive people away from discs by coupling this with steam style game sales. it works, statistically and over years... steam sales work.

interesting times.

Gen91
06-20-2013, 11:07 AM
Inferior? Why do people keep saying this? It's the same exact hardware as the PS4... line item for line item with ONE exception: The RAM in the PS4 is faster...

PS4 has also a faster GPU.


I'm not sure why people are all bent out of shape about how the Xbox One was a week ago, Steam has been doing this same thing for YEARS on the PC. Buy a game brand new, day one for $60 and not have the ability to lend it out or resell it... it's not that big a deal. Microsoft was, I believe, just trying to bring that same sort of convenience to Xbox owners. But now, they have listened to their the people complaining and now they're getting harassed for changing their policy to the way people wanted - there is no winning with some people!

Buying a game day one one Steam is just plain stupid. 60€, while in a shop around 50€ (+DvD)
and if you buy the CD-Key online it's mostly between 25-40€.

Also Steam is awesome cause of it's 75-90% sales. Just bought Dragon Age + all DLC for 3 or 6€ (don't remember).
There is nothing like that on the XBOX (for AAA titels) and I believe there will never be.

keroko
06-20-2013, 11:45 AM
Inferior? Why do people keep saying this? It's the same exact hardware as the PS4... line item for line item with ONE exception: The RAM in the PS4 is faster...

this much I can assure you. you cannot evaluate the real world max performance for specific tasks without test hardware.

there may be faster ram in the sony box but there's a massive cache on dye with xboxone.

i had a masters lecturer in operating systems who used to swear up and down that cache on CPUs was the major way in which we cheat to go faster with our overblown pocket calculators.

as to gamestop - they have hundreds of shops in a 50 state country, they undercut the new box and place the used copy right next to it. They reward you specifically for buying used (thus maximizing gstop profit on the flip). The dock you 20% on cash out versus credit. They rape you, and you love it.

I'd rather pay slightly more, and not have developers wondering how exactly the hell they're supposed to feed their families.

gamestop can rot.

XagoTrunk
06-20-2013, 12:01 PM
Haven't played a console since I got a gaming PC like 10 years ago lol. They all seem really pointless except for the multi-controller social aspect I guess

Apparition
06-20-2013, 12:34 PM
Really "any"? While that may be a huge stretch, first place is clearly Microsoft's to lose since they left both the PS3 and the Wii in the dust.

You do know the PS3 sold more than the 360 while being out for a shorter period of time and also being more expensive? Microsoft definitely didn't leave Sony in the dust. The Wii actually crushed both the PS3 and 360 in terms of global sales. As of today, Xbox 360 is the worst selling of the 7th gen consoles.

jai151
06-20-2013, 12:41 PM
As someone who managed an EB Games before they were bought out by Gamestop, Gamestop is an evil corp I wouldn't mind seeing go out of business. I quit shortly after the buyout, best career move I ever made.

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 12:46 PM
I never buy used games. Why? Because for the $5 savings off of a $60 game I'd rather buy it new. Seriously, you want to talk about evil? Gamestop is it! You buy a $60 game new, beat it in a weekend and then go trade it in for $20 (If you're lucky) and then they turn around and sell it for $55!

And the only difference between this and the "digital resale" system that microsoft was proposing is that no one would be able to buy that used game after you sold it back to microsoft/publisher X, assuming the publisher would let you sell it back in the first place. So, you tell me which is better, having the option to sell your game how you want, to who you want, or being told IF you can sell your game at all.

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 12:48 PM
People have to remember. The only reason steam's system worked was:

(A) After download, you can play offline. No 24hr check in, no online required unless you play Multiplayer
(B) Most of these games have huge sales, and you can buy much cheaper than anywhere else (and you can find games still on there you cant find in stores.)
(C) They have so many indie developers with small cheap games, this is a big thing. The creators of Torchlight had an amazing article how the Steam summer sale Really boosted their monetary value even though it was being sold at like $8-$10 instead of the sticker price of $20.
(D) The online price is = to internet price. Xbox and Sony will both require a "annual" 'pass' to play online with other people through their services on top of the internet you already have to pay.
(E) Again, the sales. I barely buy games, but damn if I didn't drop over $120 last year on the summer sale, and I have only played half the games I got to this point.

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 12:49 PM
As someone who managed an EB Games before they were bought out by Gamestop, Gamestop is an evil corp I wouldn't mind seeing go out of business. I quit shortly after the buyout, best career move I ever made.

So why are they evil? Because they are a business working on trying to maximize profits? That is how almost every business works...

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 12:54 PM
People have to remember. The only reason steam's system worked was:

(A) After download, you can play offline. No 24hr check in, no online required unless you play Multiplayer
(B) Most of these games have huge sales, and you can buy much cheaper than anywhere else (and you can find games still on there you cant find in stores.)
(C) They have so many indie developers with small cheap games, this is a big thing. The creators of Torchlight had an amazing article how the Steam summer sale Really boosted their monetary value even though it was being sold at like $8-$10 instead of the sticker price of $20.
(D) The online price is = to internet price. Xbox and Sony will both require a "annual" 'pass' to play online with other people through their services on top of the internet you already have to pay.
(E) Again, the sales. I barely buy games, but damn if I didn't drop over $120 last year on the summer sale, and I have only played half the games I got to this point.

All very excellent points that a lot of people seem to gloss over when comparing the old XBone setup to how steam works. The only thing I would that I don't see clearly spelled out here is that Steam has competition. GOG, amazon, origin, etc. all offer competing services, which is a big driving factor in their sales. Without competition, there is no reason to offer any sort of discount what so ever because it is here or nothing. That is what the XBone setup was going to be, steam without any competition what so ever, yet some people seem to believe that there would magically be lowered cost on games and sales popping up, despite history to show otherwise.

jai151
06-20-2013, 12:54 PM
So why are they evil? Because they are a business working on trying to maximize profits? That is how almost every business works...

Oh, no, not that at all. The way they ran the company was hell, and every change they made was at the customer's expense.

Except the paperwork change. That was at my expense, as I suddenly had to spend an extra hour every day copying the analytics already in the computer into a handwritten book and run all kinds of calculations on them (that they could already do at home office with the computer reporting...)

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 12:57 PM
All very excellent points that a lot of people seem to gloss over when comparing the old XBone setup to how steam works. The only thing I would that I don't see clearly spelled out here is that Steam has competition. GOG, amazon, origin, etc. all offer competing services, which is a big driving factor in their sales. Without competition, there is no reason to offer any sort of discount what so ever because it is here or nothing. That is what the XBone setup was going to be, steam without any competition what so ever, yet some people seem to believe that there would magically be lowered cost on games and sales popping up, despite history to show otherwise.

Competition was little when steam first started. Thus steam became the front-runner, and has kept plenty of loyalty because of this. Plus, its ease to combine all games on 1 "system" and not have to hope GoG/Amazong's will allow entry into Steams program.

Plus you can play all your games from any computer device logged into steam, as it saves it on the cloud. (unlike Gog and stuff). However GoG and amazong have been known to have some deals better than steam. So people should always check all 3.

And pretend Origin doesn't exist. That works well for me.

Diesbudt
06-20-2013, 01:00 PM
Oh, no, not that at all. The way they ran the company was hell, and every change they made was at the customer's expense.

Except the paperwork change. That was at my expense, as I suddenly had to spend an extra hour every day copying the analytics already in the computer into a handwritten book and run all kinds of calculations on them (that they could already do at home office with the computer reporting...)

At the customer's expense? You sure? because I have saved money shopping there then anywhere else at times when researching what I was looking into buying. So I am not sure how they were at my expense?

Sure Maybe the change from EB --> was a slight downgrade for customers, but if GS is still a better choice at times than other choices for purchases, it means it is not that big of an expense to the customer.

All ownership changes are expense on the workforce. That is common.

So again I see no evil, unless you count all businesses evil.

Avedecus
06-20-2013, 01:25 PM
So, you tell me which is better, having the option to sell your game how you want, to who you want, or being told IF you can sell your game at all.
The second one, unless you're a selfish little twat who only cares about himself and not the health and welfare of the gaming industry.

As for Gamestop: they're evil because they screw over their employees, their suppliers/publishers, the developers, and their customers. They buy games from customers at half the value almost anyone else would pay for a used game, then sell it at a full value. They profit off stupidity, laziness, and corrupt corporate politics. I look forward to the day when the purchasing of games becomes entirely digital as that will not only murder Gamestop, but also reduce the prices for games across the board.

jai151
06-20-2013, 01:46 PM
At the customer's expense? You sure? because I have saved money shopping there then anywhere else at times when researching what I was looking into buying. So I am not sure how they were at my expense?

Sure Maybe the change from EB --> was a slight downgrade for customers, but if GS is still a better choice at times than other choices for purchases, it means it is not that big of an expense to the customer.

All ownership changes are expense on the workforce. That is common.

So again I see no evil, unless you count all businesses evil.

Yes, I'm certain. Warrantees were slashed in duration and coverage while rising in cost, employees were ordered to basically lie to customers to make sales, prices on used systems and games were raised across the board, the list goes on. It's been... gotta be close to ten years now since it happened, the stores retained the EB name for quite a while after the buyout, so it may not have been as obvious on your side of the counter.

Niedar
06-20-2013, 02:04 PM
I have seen a bunch of people that seem to think we can't conclude that the xbox is inferior in hardware/software to the PS4 and I just want to point out how wrong they are.


They both have the same CPU and run on the same GPU architecture made by AMD except for the fact that Xbox only has 12 Compute Units while the PS4 has 18 Compute units. The PS4 does have better memory than the Xbox because it needs to be able to feed the more powerful GPU that it has while the Xbox decided to go with an ESRAM cache that is ultimately inferior for the majority of tasks. Honestly the Xbox wouldn't really benefit as much as the PS4 does from it's GDDR5 memory because of the less powerful GPU that it has.

So thats basically the major hardware differences between the two, now lets talk about the software. Xbox is going to be running a hypervisor with Windows 8 kernel and the Xbox OS on top of that. In order to do this they are reserving 3 GB of the 8 GB that it has and dedicating 2 of the 8 cores to this task. That leaves 6 cores and 5 GB of ram left over for games to have access to. The PS4 on the other hand will only be reserving 1 GB of ram and only 1 of its core to the operating system due to much lower overhead leaving it with 7 GB of ram and 7 cores left over for games.

I just want to add as well, both the Xbox and the PS4 will be able to use their GPU for non graphic tasks, this can be done at different stages in the rendering pipeline when not all parts of the GPU are being used with no degradation in the rendering performance. PS4 can do this better because of its advantage in 18 CUs vs the Xbox 12 CUs.

I don't want to even hear the cloud mentioned in response to this post, because the cloud is pure garbage and both system are capable of exactly the same thing cloud wise. Just one of them decided to use this buzz word to try and hype you up on something that isn't real.

heavenscreed
06-20-2013, 02:21 PM
Not that I agree with DRM in general, but I find it interesting that people complained so much about these policies regarding Xbox One when Steam has been doing something similar for PC's for years. And I would wager that many of us, myself included, have Steam accounts. :P

PC games are on a whole other level when it comes to things like this. main reason? cause the majority of pc games (and other software) come with one time use cd-keys. Gamestop and other vendors will not take in trades of any pc game for this reason. Why is this acceptable compared to consoles? 1. this has been going on with pc games for a long time, people are used to it. 2. PC games have to accommodate to a lowest common denominator. What i mean by that is, think of your computer, now think of your computer in a few years, or even a friends computer. Tech wise these will change or become outdated in very little time compared to consoles. If PC games only worked on the newest computers then nobody would buy them, hence the minimum requirements, which (generally) lead to lower prices. Also, it is much harder to prove whether or not a copy of a pc game is legit compared to console game (not always true but usually). steam is also lenient on how your games are managed, you can access your games from any computer when you log in, just redownload them. multiple people can put their games on the same computer, you just have to switch logins for a brief moment and then you play online or offline if that person wants to get back on.



Have you ever worked at a Gamestop? Defend the process of buying and reselling used games all you want, but don't try to pretend for a second that Gamestop isn't in fact a huge, money sucking evil corporate monolith.

this is true, gamestop itself is pretty evil. their definition of a trade in value is pretty shitty too (unless you can get multiple offers to stack, then it sometimes actually works out better for you than them). the only reason companies like these are useful to the gamer market is this. Think of how many games are made each year, how long do companies continue to make new copies of these games? for most maybe a couple of months, and for a few maybe a year. after that it's up to the gamer community to be able to exchange/sell these games or they just disappear. Vendors like gamestop just make the process easier, and the developers still make their money.


however with continuing developments in DRM i do believe things like this will eventually fade away. there may well be a day when disk based games don't exist, and Microsoft (as much as i still prefer sony and the ps4) had a good idea. However their execution of that idea was poor to say the least and at least a few decades before people would agree with those methods

keroko
06-20-2013, 02:23 PM
@niedar i worry about the latency introduced by inter-VM IO communication for user input.

it is hard to judge the efficacy of cloud offload in effective local system stress reduction.

it is largely crap atm, and made less likely to be uptaken by developers due to the no longer assumed 'console always online thing'. It is dubious, offloading a realtime / near realtime task to a remote system taking into account request delivery with relevant data, transit and processing turn around time by internet servers (its the internet we just called it the cloud because that's how we represent it in visio diagrams for years before we started using the term).

again though, we'll know a lot more when we see the SDKs to interact with this stuff / what you can actually do.

They also said on the pre-e3 that kinect processes 2Gbps data throughput. this has got to be the raw - otherwise the handling of that pipe would require half a 'superspeed' usb 3.0 bus space, and significant processing at the console side to turn that waterfall into input, optimized or otherwise. I suspect that's the intake data rate, and that its far smaller output down the cable from the kinect to the console.

I am not qualified to evaluate the differences the GPUs, but this is not all that consumes resources.

do not underestimate the value of cache one can use like a slow register.

so at cursory guess -

xboxone OS split, higher mem footprint when compared with sony linux like system.

the xboxone holds interesting potential that the sony machine may not in that the architecture exists to modify the xboxone to host different VMs at different times. They can change the count, bring them up and down at will. It is extraordinarily powerful and has been absolutely transformative for server deployments in all industries I can think of off hand.

I;m sticking to my story - no way to know until see test units and performance going to wildly vary based on effectiveness of cloud offload. One cannot predict that accurately at this time imo, but will it even be relied upon by devs with MS's latest changes?

Mushroom_C1oud
06-20-2013, 02:34 PM
@niedar i worry about the latency introduced by inter-VM IO communication for user input.

it is hard to judge the efficacy of cloud offload in effective local system stress reduction.

it is largely crap atm, and made less likely to be uptaken by developers due to the no longer assumed 'console always online thing'. It is dubious, offloading a realtime / near realtime task to a remote system taking into account request delivery with relevant data, transit and processing turn around time by internet servers (its the internet we just called it the cloud because that's how we represent it in visio diagrams for years before we started using the term).

again though, we'll know a lot more when we see the SDKs to interact with this stuff / what you can actually do.

They also said on the pre-e3 that kinect processes 2Gbps data throughput. this has got to be the raw - otherwise the handling of that pipe would require half a 'superspeed' usb 3.0 bus space, and significant processing at the console side to turn that waterfall into input, optimized or otherwise. I suspect that's the intake data rate, and that its far smaller output down the cable from the kinect to the console.

I am not qualified to evaluate the differences the GPUs, but this is not all that consumes resources.

do not underestimate the value of cache one can use like a slow register.

so at cursory guess -

xboxone OS split, higher mem footprint when compared with sony linux like system.

the xboxone holds interesting potential that the sony machine may not in that the architecture exists to modify the xboxone to host different VMs at different times. They can change the count, bring them up and down at will. It is extraordinarily powerful and has been absolutely transformative for server deployments in all industries I can think of off hand.

I;m sticking to my story - no way to know until see test units and performance going to wildly vary based on effectiveness of cloud offload. One cannot predict that accurately at this time imo, but will it even be relied upon by devs with MS's latest changes?

Titanfall, a XBO and PC exclusive, will be using the cloud servers to process the AI according to the trailer. Since it is already being tested the next step would be to get it into thousands, if not millions, of players hands to test the servers. I have confidence that Microsoft wouldn't make an announcement like that without being able to back it up.

As far as the backpedaling with Microsoft's announcement, I have a feeling that was Gamestop strong arming them because of them refusing to allow any more system preorders. Who stands to lose the most money from Microsoft going DRM: Gamestop.

Rtsands45
06-20-2013, 02:39 PM
this is true, gamestop itself is pretty evil. their definition of a trade in value is pretty shitty too (unless you can get multiple offers to stack, then it sometimes actually works out better for you than them). the only reason companies like these are useful to the gamer market is this. Think of how many games are made each year, how long do companies continue to make new copies of these games? for most maybe a couple of months, and for a few maybe a year. after that it's up to the gamer community to be able to exchange/sell these games or they just disappear. Vendors like gamestop just make the process easier, and the developers still make their money.


You think Gamestop is evil wait til we have online vendors for hex. You will be lucky to recieve 40% trade in value.

heavenscreed
06-20-2013, 02:41 PM
lmao oh god no!!!!

Thelaasa
06-20-2013, 07:22 PM
So, since we are talking about the changes to the XBone and all, I found this nifty little post just now: http://www.heyuguysgaming.com/news/12507/heartbroken-xbox-one-employee-lets-rip-must-read

Talks about some of the "features" that microsoft is taking away along with the DRM and used/rented restrictions. In particular, I found the blurb about the family share plan, one of their "up sides" to be quite hilarious. For those who don't want to read through the article, here is a direct quote:
"When your family member accesses any of your games, they’re placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game. "

So, basically, their whole big family share plan that they were talking about, really just amounted to a glorified game demo system. Not sure exactly how reliable the source is, but it's no worse than any of the other conflicting reports that have been coming from certified microsoft sources over the last month.

Qorsair
06-20-2013, 08:18 PM
So, since we are talking about the changes to the XBone and all, I found this nifty little post just now: http://www.heyuguysgaming.com/news/12507/heartbroken-xbox-one-employee-lets-rip-must-read

Talks about some of the "features" that microsoft is taking away along with the DRM and used/rented restrictions. In particular, I found the blurb about the family share plan, one of their "up sides" to be quite hilarious. For those who don't want to read through the article, here is a direct quote:
"When your family member accesses any of your games, they’re placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game. "

I read the whole wall of text posted in the article. Holy cow, I don't know why I expected anything more from Microsoft, but, really? Your futuristic "Family Sharing" plan is just a demo mode to sell a game to my sister or buddy from college?

I expect that realization would have created a bigger backlash than the DRM system that they said was necessary to enable this functionality.

Tiuvath
06-20-2013, 08:40 PM
XBOX One development was co-funded by the NSA :p, add that to "xbox will watch your every move and can read your basic vitals via infrared" and I cant see how you'd ever want one of those monstrosities.

Xintia
06-20-2013, 09:57 PM
XBOX One development was co-funded by the NSA :p, add that to "xbox will watch your every move and can read your basic vitals via infrared" and I cant see how you'd ever want one of those monstrosities.

Kinect will join Facebook as the most powerful intelligence gathering tools known to man. ;) #tinfoilhat #kinectisalwayslistening

Zomnivore
06-20-2013, 11:07 PM
I think this is simple boiling the frog bull.

They had all this horrible stuff there, that when they slipped in the kinect spying on you in your home for advertising revenue (and general spying for the sake of it) that once everything else got repealed its like "oh well I guess we got 'em" lo' they've gotten you to tacitly demote the spying aspect in your list of things to be fucking completely outraged at.

I will never own an xbox one, or something that some company controls and has the right to fucking spy into my home, laptop cameras at the very least are your own fucking stupid fault.

Oh, and apparently they can use your sound systems to record what you say....but at least that's probably on the face illegal compared to this bullshit.

taveren
06-21-2013, 12:08 AM
gamestop only preorders the amount gamestop would buy from Microsoft and i guess ether they could only get so many or only got as many as they thought they could move of this crappy system. many many stores still have xb1 to preorder even thought theres a lower cap on the number of preorders then ps4

and as for gamestop strong arming Microsoft we weren't going to not sell games we make money off of for any reason. but i did hear that companys like ea pressured ms in to doing the no used game thing in the first place so they are feeling pressure on all sides

on a side note pa is always funny
http://penny-arcade.com/comic

Mushroom_C1oud
06-21-2013, 05:51 AM
So, since we are talking about the changes to the XBone and all, I found this nifty little post just now: http://www.heyuguysgaming.com/news/12507/heartbroken-xbox-one-employee-lets-rip-must-read

Talks about some of the "features" that microsoft is taking away along with the DRM and used/rented restrictions. In particular, I found the blurb about the family share plan, one of their "up sides" to be quite hilarious. For those who don't want to read through the article, here is a direct quote:
"When your family member accesses any of your games, they’re placed into a special demo mode. This demo mode in most cases would be the full game with a 15-45 minute timer and in some cases an hour. This allowed the person to play the game, get familiar with it then make a purchase if they wanted to. When the time limit was up they would automatically be prompted to the Marketplace so that they may order it if liked the game. "

So, basically, their whole big family share plan that they were talking about, really just amounted to a glorified game demo system. Not sure exactly how reliable the source is, but it's no worse than any of the other conflicting reports that have been coming from certified microsoft sources over the last month.

If that is true then I have no reason to get a XBO. I won't get either system and just put my preorder money towards a 3DS with Zelda and Mario. Plus, I will always have my PC.

Diesbudt
06-21-2013, 05:52 AM
gamestop only preorders the amount gamestop would buy from Microsoft and i guess ether they could only get so many or only got as many as they thought they could move of this crappy system. many many stores still have xb1 to preorder even thought theres a lower cap on the number of preorders then ps4

and as for gamestop strong arming Microsoft we weren't going to not sell games we make money off of for any reason. but i did hear that companys like ea pressured ms in to doing the no used game thing in the first place so they are feeling pressure on all sides

on a side note pa is always funny
http://penny-arcade.com/comic

EA pressured them for that? How does that not surprise me...

Avedecus
06-21-2013, 08:32 AM
If you're paranoid about your kinect spying on you you've got bigger issues than deciding which console to buy.

Also, DRM is the future. PC games have been doing it for years, it's only a matter of time until consoles do as well. And personally I'm convinced it's a good thing. It likely won't occur until most console gaming transactions are done digitally, but when it does it will A) put Gamestop out of business, B) reduce the average cost to purchase a game, and C) get more money to developers.

Diesbudt
06-21-2013, 08:40 AM
If you're paranoid about your kinect spying on you, you've got bigger issues than deciding which console to buy.

Also, DRM is the future. PC games have been doing it for years, it's only a matter of time until consoles do as well. And personally I'm convinced it's a good thing. It likely won't occur until most console gaming transactions are done digitally, but when it does it will A) put Gamestop out of business, B) reduce the average cost to purchase a game, and C) get more money to developers.

However you are forget. PC uses internet for multiplayer. Consoles need it too PLUS an extra subscription.

Until consoles can

A) Not require an online subscription to play
B) Transfer purchases to each new generation of consoles
C) Prove the price would drop (companies odds are would not lower the price since they proved they can sell that high)

They cannot be anywhere compared to PC games.

Also somewhere between 10-15% of console sales are to those in countries, or even here in the States that do not have internet. (for various reasons). Thus it is a market drop to ever require DRM. It would have to go in a way like steam where you CAN play offline as well as on. Remember computers will almost always basically have internet, as that is the primary device it was invented on. So it isn't much to ask PC to run DRM via steam and such. However consoles will always be another story. (Plus you can still buy PC games offline /gasp! Surprising? right?)

keroko
06-21-2013, 09:47 AM
A firm out of Israel called PrimeSense developed the kinect tech.

the potential for UI control is insane - its peripheral free and thats a huge advantage.

MS has a military grade sensor if you went even 15 years back.

the ps4 solution is still a couple of webcam probably using the stereoscope to calculate the user movements in 3d space. It also tracks light on controller for relative position as far as I know.

Kinect 2.0 is a more accutate (and 1.0 was pretty good) IR grid caster coupled with an IR camera and a visible light webcam. The microphone array in the kinect is also superior and has very good noise isolation capabilities.

we WILL get to a point where we just quickly flick our fingers to realize control.

I'll tell you I expect Hex to support touch screen controls.

Kinect 2.0 should allow for mouse control replacement - it'd be neat to lie on the couch in my shin'hare cosplay eating carrots while playing with a mic and kinect.

we're spoiled.

Mahes
06-21-2013, 10:10 AM
I heard they renamed the system to "The XBox 180"...

Hemotherapy
06-21-2013, 11:09 AM
If you're paranoid about your kinect spying on you you've got bigger issues than deciding which console to buy.

Also, DRM is the future. PC games have been doing it for years, it's only a matter of time until consoles do as well. And personally I'm convinced it's a good thing. It likely won't occur until most console gaming transactions are done digitally, but when it does it will A) put Gamestop out of business, B) reduce the average cost to purchase a game, and C) get more money to developers.

I'll put a camera in your house and promise to only use it to scan for things you're using to advertise those products to you and only listen for the phrase "turn on" :) but you need to pay me $100 to do it, deal?


A) That wouldn't put gamestop out of business, they already said their will be a relicensing fee, Gamestop would either pay for that for the consumer and charge more for used games, or keep prices as they are and make the consumer pay for the fee themsleves. Under that system no one would want gamestop to go anywhere because it would be a huge cash cow for the developers, someone else is selling their shit for them, win/in

B) There was no gaurentee of that. Whats to stop developers from saying "gg MS thanks for the extra income"

C) Indeed it would. But for DRM to make more money for game developers...they'd have to not cut cost on the initial sale of the titles. Oh great we made 60,000 more this month from the DRM relicense fee, but ah shit we lost 80,000 from lowering our cost per unit so people would be happy we lowered our cost for our games.

DRM is a win for the developers and only the developers. Makes sense they'd push so hard for it huh? ;)


However you are forget. PC uses internet for multiplayer. Consoles need it too PLUS an extra subscription.

Until consoles can

A) Not require an online subscription to play
B) Transfer purchases to each new generation of consoles
C) Prove the price would drop (companies odds are would not lower the price since they proved they can sell that high)

They cannot be anywhere compared to PC games.

Also somewhere between 10-15% of console sales are to those in countries, or even here in the States that do not have internet. (for various reasons). Thus it is a market drop to ever require DRM. It would have to go in a way like steam where you CAN play offline as well as on. Remember computers will almost always basically have internet, as that is the primary device it was invented on. So it isn't much to ask PC to run DRM via steam and such. However consoles will always be another story. (Plus you can still buy PC games offline /gasp! Surprising? right?)

Ah some gets it! Someone without Xbox tinted/colored glasses on! :)

Qorsair
06-21-2013, 11:24 AM
I heard they renamed the system to "The XBox 180"...

It surprises me that it's not widely being referred to as the Xbox 180. Is the phrase just too obvious and people feel it's not clever enough for them to use? I think it's better than the alternatives I've seen.

Niedar
06-21-2013, 02:31 PM
A lot of people have been using 180 but people have used Xbone for so long now I think many want to keep that.

dawolv
06-21-2013, 03:43 PM
I will hang with my Steam box :)
Much more powerful, easily upgraded, and does a heck of a lot more...

What it doesn't do? Play Madden :(

Avedecus
06-21-2013, 06:42 PM
I'll put a camera in your house and promise to only use it to scan for things you're using to advertise those products to you and only listen for the phrase "turn on" :) but you need to pay me $100 to do it, deal?

Go right ahead. My email, Facebook, and search engine already do this for you though.


A) That wouldn't put gamestop out of business, they already said their will be a relicensing fee, Gamestop would either pay for that for the consumer and charge more for used games, or keep prices as they are and make the consumer pay for the fee themsleves. Under that system no one would want gamestop to go anywhere because it would be a huge cash cow for the developers, someone else is selling their shit for them, win/in

"Gamestop would either pay" OH GOD MY SIDES! But yeah, no, DRM would kill Gamestop. Hell, the prevalence digital products is already hurting Gamestop. Eventually, the idea of a brick and mortar game store will be both laughable and obsolete.

B) There was no gaurentee of that. Whats to stop developers from saying "gg MS thanks for the extra income"

That's certainly possible. There are various trends and patterns emerging in the current industry that make me seriously question the validity of your assumption, but it is possible.

C) Indeed it would. But for DRM to make more money for game developers...they'd have to not cut cost on the initial sale of the titles. Oh great we made 60,000 more this month from the DRM relicense fee, but ah shit we lost 80,000 from lowering our cost per unit so people would be happy we lowered our cost for our games.

Actually no. If it weren't for Gamestop's... well, EXISTENCE, games would be cheaper. I'm assuming you don't work in the industry, because if you did you would know about how developers and major publishers are not allowed to sell digital product cheaper than in-store product due to Gamestop threatening to not carry their goods.

DRM is a win for the developers and only the developers. Makes sense they'd push so hard for it huh? ;)

When developers win, consumers win. How is this a difficult concept?

Ah some gets it! Someone without Xbox tinted/colored glasses on! :)

I don't give a crap about MS's godawful consoles. The first one was awful, the second one was awful, and this one will be awful.

regomar
06-21-2013, 09:57 PM
Those few people on here repeating the industry's pathetic whining about how used games are hurting them really need a reality check.

Game companies do NOT deserve special rights. We have had resale rights in most civilized countries for as long as modern commerce has existed. Unless you feel we should ban all used cars, used books, used cds, used computers, used furniture, used artwork, used instruments, etc... there is NO reason whatsoever that the games industry deserves special rights at the expense of the consumer having his basic rights of resale being taken from him. None.

Used games have existed as long as games themselves have. Gaming is bigger now than ever before. This incessant crying and begging for welfare from huge multi million dollar companies is almost as pathetic as the drones who listen to that drivel and spout it out here.

As for Gamestop being evil, if you don't like their policies, don't sell games to them. If you don't like the prices they offer to buy used games, don't sell them. I can assure you that no Gamestop employee has EVER held a gun to a gamers head and forced them to sell their game for 20 dollars. Nothing whatsoever is stopping that gamer from selling his game for a higher price elsewhere if he can find a buyer. If he wants quick cash, Gamestop is merely providing a completely optional service that nobody has ever been forced to use.

I actually don't like Gamestop, but for other reasons. I don't like the way they treat their employees and I dont like the way they push pre-orders so heavily and obnoxiously. Ironically though, the 2 most common complaints e-warriors give against gamestop is 1) Gamestop is harming the industry by pushing used games and allowing less new game sales and 2) Gamestop very aggressively pushes pre-orders for new games. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that those two statements clash.


TL/DR Game companies don't deserve special rights no other industry gets, Gamestop isn't forcing anyone to sell games to them, and the Games industry is doing just fine by itself without you white knighting for them.

keroko
06-22-2013, 12:01 AM
@regomar - I'd ask you politely to moderate your tone. Reading the vitriol seep like brown hillbilly spit from a foul mouth struck dumb and in quiver with disagreement is somewhat unpleasant. 'pathetic drones...incessant crying...' you seem perturbed, angry even.


...Game companies do NOT deserve special rights. We have had resale rights in most civilized countries for as long as modern commerce has existed. Unless you feel we should ban all used cars, used books, used cds, used computers, used furniture, used artwork, used instruments, etc... there is NO reason whatsoever that the games industry deserves special rights at the expense of the consumer having his basic rights of resale being taken from him. None....

A software license is ephemeral, it has no intrinsic value. the right to play is not is not a tangible asset, nor one necessarily imbued with the right to transitively reassign itself to another owner. Not same beast as used car. You have no right of resale on the license / serial code.

If I get a 'ethereal plunderer' or 'spectral tiger' scratch code version in the wow TCG, then I go off and use that code for my wow character, I cannot undo that process and resell the original item and code to another person when I'm finished messing about with it. I've consumed the 'experience'.

due to lack of DRM largely past the presence of the physical media in console for current generation (we'll exclude the illegal markets and outright theft through device modification) Gamestop and crew have profiteered tremendously.

It does impact games companies, significantly. Meanwhile Gamestop claims 'gaming is a recession proof industry'.

Imagine gamestop calculating how it'll need to reduce the number of new copies of 'xyz' they buy because they compete with themselves inventory wise once the SAME COPY THEY BOUGHT FROM PUBLISHER now appears as a SALE FROM THE CONSUMER for the 4th, 5th, nth time down the line. Its absurd, they're cyclers.

Gamestop provides a poor trade price, one enough for them to profit again on resale. Publisher is now completely out of the picture. How can that be considered a reduction in revenue to the publisher / dev?


I can assure you that no Gamestop employee has EVER held a gun to a gamers head and forced them to sell their game for 20 dollars

nah, just setup and provided enormous infrastructure for doing it willingly, and motivations to do so with 'powerup rewards'. Again, we'll exclude trying to sell replacement plans through third party warrenty providers at the counter too, out of scope.

For many gamers I'd imagine its about a way to continue. if you want to keep playing or whatever it is you need the money for. yes, you could probably punt your copy of 'xyz' on ebay for a few dollars more but its a lot of hassle and gamestop will just take it - and hook you up with a used copy of your next one.

No one's ever forced you to take a payday loan at 400% interest. but the moneys there. there's the mafia too - they'll take your arms. but no one made you. not my fault. so its good?

I briefly worked at borders book when I moved to this country from the UK. I was absolutely astounded with the audacity of the american consumer... They'd return items that'd clearly beean read fully, claiming it 'wasnt one to keep' and all kinds of garbage, with outer spines cracked from wide openings... you'd look at them, try to dust the jam or chocolate caked on pages of the filthy tomes and be like 'for srs?'

Game box and media have no value... they are relics, used as distribution technologies carried inside of trucks when there was no better way. Now there is.

Imagine if the local public library was selling books at 85% of new - and offering people trade in so they could repeat that process - instead of lending out small numbers of copies of books to people who wait to get a shot when their out of stock or have it shipped in from another in the system.

I cannot go into 'the book of mormon' or 'phantom of the opera' or my local movie theater and record the performance for memory archival purposes. My ticket price was consumed by me being there in attendance, for getting to see it, hear it and remember it.

As MSFT might put it, it's about a license (or ticket) to have the 'experience'...

If I made a product and there was a leech organization which bottom fed up all the copies of it and resold them on flip, thus reducing further incidence of sales, I'd want it all online too - so to get their grubby mitts off it.

gamestop can rot.

panzer
06-22-2013, 01:03 AM
Microsoft could have saved face if they announced these changes at E3 instead of a week later. They say they were listening to gamer feedback but what they really listened to was pre-order sales or lack thereof. Cloud gaming is the future there's no need to force the transition it will happen naturally. At the same time I was glad gamestop was taking a hit the upsale they make on used games is insane and someone needs to take them down a notch.

regomar
06-22-2013, 07:58 AM
@regomar - I'd ask you politely to moderate your tone. Reading the vitriol

seep like brown hillbilly spit from a foul mouth struck dumb and in quiver with disagreement is

somewhat unpleasant. 'pathetic drones...incessant crying...' you seem perturbed, angry

even.

I've been no more confrontational than your own angry rants where you ludicrously compared

perfectly legal resale rights and disc sharing to theft and stealing. If I seem perturbed and

angry, it's in direct reaction to your hateful anti-consumer posts.




A software license is ephemeral, it has no intrinsic value. the right to play

is not is not a tangible asset, nor one necessarily imbued with the right to transitively reassign

itself to another owner. Not same beast as used car. You have no right of resale on the license /

serial code.

This is how software has been sneakily legally re-assigned in the modern era by greedy publishers

intent on convincing people like you that they deserve special rights for their product. I can

assure you, as someone that's been around since the PC first because a common household item, that

until very recently, software has always been a tangible asset that can be sold second-hand. It is

absolutely no different than a car. This modern idea that you cannot resell software is just that:

a modern revision that utterly ignores history, the law, and hundreds of years of standard consumer

rights.

When you own a car there are literally thousands of pieces of proprietary technology involved in

the end product much like the source code and assets in a game. You own the car, not the

intellectual property of the pieces that make up the whole, and yet you are still allowed to sell

your instance of those copies of that property and nobody raises an eyebrow. A car even has a

serial number identifying your instance of the property exactly the same as software. It is an

absolutely relevant example.




due to lack of DRM largely past the presence of the physical media in console

for current generation (we'll exclude the illegal markets and outright theft through device

modification) Gamestop and crew have profiteered tremendously.

It does impact games companies, significantly. Meanwhile Gamestop claims 'gaming is a recession

proof industry'.

Gamestop has a right to profit even if we don't like them (and I don't, as I already said). They

are a business and their actions are perfectly legal. Gaming IS a recession proof industry. They

survived the recession and are still doing relatively well compared to thousands of other

businesses that went under. Not sure what issues you have with gamestop saying something that is

demonstrably true.




Imagine gamestop calculating how it'll need to reduce the number of new copies

of 'xyz' they buy because they compete with themselves inventory wise once the SAME COPY THEY

BOUGHT FROM PUBLISHER now appears as a SALE FROM THE CONSUMER for the 4th, 5th, nth time down the

line. Its absurd, they're cyclers.

Gamestop provides a poor trade price, one enough for them to profit again on resale. Publisher is

now completely out of the picture. How can that be considered a reduction in revenue to the

publisher / dev?

This is no different than the hundreds of thousands of retail outlets for millions of products

around the world that sell used goods aside new ones. My favorite book shop sells used books next

to old and book publishers are doing just fine. My car dealership sells used cars next to new

ones. Most of the most passionate (non corporate) music stores sell used cds next to new ones.

More music is being produced now than ever before, it's certainly not dying. Used games have been

selling next to new ones since the Atari. Sure hasn't killed the industry yet, it's actually

helped the industry flourish.

On top of that we have another way used games/any other item affects the market: Makes fans of

people who would not have paid first price to sample a new creator. I cannot count the number of

new game purchases that I have made that are entirely thanks to my being able to cheaply buy into

an earlier game in the series used, enjoy it, and buy the rest of the series new as it comes out.

Same applies to authors and bands. I also know that I am far from alone in this phenomena. If it

wasn't for used games, I wouldnt have half of the new media I currently own.



No one's ever forced you to take a payday loan at 400% interest. but the

moneys there. there's the mafia too - they'll take your arms. but no one made you. not my fault.

so its good?

As long as it's done within the law it IS fine. Though the places you mention often break the law

and thus I am no fan. You shouldn't have to protect people from making their own stupid decisions.

There's this little thing called personal responsibility. Perhaps you've heard of it?



I briefly worked at borders book when I moved to this country from the UK. I

was absolutely astounded with the audacity of the american consumer... They'd return items that'd

clearly beean read fully, claiming it 'wasnt one to keep' and all kinds of garbage, with outer

spines cracked from wide openings... you'd look at them, try to dust the jam or chocolate caked on

pages of the filthy tomes and be like 'for srs?'

Ahh, and here we have the crux of the matter. You had early negative experience with some bad

customers trying to pull a fast one so now you believe that anyone wanting to exercise their

consumer rights is just as bad. Thank you for explaining where your visceral bias comes from.

Very illuminating.



Game box and media have no value... they are relics, used as distribution

technologies carried inside of trucks when there was no better way. Now there is.

It appears that the vast majority of the gaming community disagrees with you. So vehemently in

fact that Microsoft had to reverse their entire generation of plans in the face of all-out consumer

outrage. The market has spoken. You lose.



Imagine if the local public library was selling books at 85% of new - and

offering people trade in so they could repeat that process - instead of lending out small numbers

of copies of books to people who wait to get a shot when their out of stock or have it shipped in

from another in the system.

Actually, libraries sell their overstock all the time. I routinely stop by my local library and

pick up their older stock at good used prices as well as donate my old books for minor benefits.

It appears that book publishers are still alive and kicking. The evil communist library system

hasn't managed to kill them yet! Many libraries do this. Perhaps you haven't been in a library

for the last few decades?




I cannot go into 'the book of mormon' or 'phantom of the opera' or my local

movie theater and record the performance for memory archival purposes. My ticket price was

consumed by me being there in attendance, for getting to see it, hear it and remember it.

As MSFT might put it, it's about a license (or ticket) to have the 'experience'...


This is how the greedy gaming publishers want to re-define gaming. They want us to look at buying

an experience not a game. Sorry, I don't buy that BS and neither does the majority of gamers. Your

analogy might make sense if movies didn't get sold on physical discs that were perfectly legal to

resell, rent, and trade. The movie THEATER experience is a performance, not the movie itself.

People pay for the experience of going to the theater and seeing it on the big screen. There is no

equivalent to a game. A game is more like that physical DVD that is sold in individual units. I

find it hard to believe that you don't see that.



If I made a product and there was a leech organization which bottom fed up all

the copies of it and resold them on flip, thus reducing further incidence of sales, I'd want it all

online too - so to get their grubby mitts off it.


And consumers would then avoid your product and vote with their wallets as they clearly have en

masse with this very Microsoft situation. Consumers expect to own what they buy. Unfortunately,

entitled anti-rights people like yourself seem to think that certain producers deserve special

rights that other producers do not have to lock your products down. Well, you can try if you ever

actually produce something somebody wants. But I hope you understand that in the eyes of the

consumer, taking away their rights to resell your product significantly impacts the worth of your

item. Hope you plan to lower your prices to compensate... like Steam for instance which has won

over many customers with its 75-90% off sales. When you lock a product down, it loses significant

value, and value is ALL about perception. Charging a premium for a locked down anti-consumer

product is a recipe for disaster. Just ask Microsoft.

I am sincerely glad that Hex is not run by someone like you. You are the type of person who would

produce these modern locked-down card games where you cannot even trade or resell your cards. If

Hex's producers had your attitude they'd call anyone wanting to resell their cards a leech. I

mean, how horrible! The person selling second hand Hex cards is taking money right out of

Cryptozoic's pocket! Never mind the fact that giving consumers the ability to resell those cards

adds immeasurable value to the product itself. You obviously don't care about value and pleasing

your customers. Hex does. That's why I pledged for it.

regomar
06-22-2013, 08:16 AM
No idea why the forum added double-spacing to the above post. Wasn't like that when I submitted the form and now it won't let me edit it properly.

keroko
06-22-2013, 09:10 AM
I think its time that you please join me at the rotary press:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekiyWk1s6Ww&feature=share&list=UUgFruRCzClMpOaV_h5edozw

You were only getting used cds / books and the like because you could get away with it. The store that sells used with new wants exactly what gamestop wants - a slice of the pie and consumers browsing their shop. Can't blame a business for that.

When you take it further and turn it into cycling entrapment which you can only cash out of at a 20% fine, when you charge extra subscription fees to get preferential trade in rates within the same system it stops being about community building and starts representing a cash siphon.

I built my first 8086 at age 8 with my father - I've been on msdos since v2 or so. I've stolen more software than I'd care to admit and have been doing so for a very long time. Piracy is not a new problem. Gamestop used flip is like legitimized piracy.

I fear we may not reach an accord on the validity of this perception.


....Actually, libraries sell their overstock all the time...

Indeed, I get my biomedical sciences journals there. i cant afford 35 dollar paywalls per paper for speculative / upkeep / general reading. You excluded the part where the library would be doing the sale of excess stock for profit. In all instances it's been pennies on the dollar and really more of a gift to whomever will take them. talking cover price 20-30, sold for $0.50. They're not running flips and they don't do it with the same copy 20 times.


...You shouldn't have to protect people from making their own stupid decisions.

There's this little thing called personal responsibility. Perhaps you've heard of it?....

I disagree with you vehemently.
One cannot flippantly dismiss traps which take advantage of human frailty and weakness and exploit them, especially when a person is most desperate.
Animals do things they never normally would when stressed terribly - and people who abuse that psychology with businesses built around that are wickedness made flesh.
They'll smile at you as you hand over the keys to your car as backing for the loan your taking to feed an addiction, knowing fine and well that's exactly what they're doing and that they'll soon have a car for auction.

you are your brothers keeper in that you exist as part of the same society. Whether you like it or not. It is the duty of those who can to deliver better futures for ourselves. As humans. Anything less is sloth and wholly unacceptable, the future demands it.


The movie THEATER experience is a performance, not the movie itself.

People pay for the experience of going to the theater and seeing it on the big screen. There is no

equivalent to a game.

the instant you go online, touch a server or any other client node you are in that THEATER experience you mention. They'll just yank those pieces after a time. That time is often shortened by leeching of sales to the publisher / dev by flippers like gamestop.


...I hope you understand that in the eyes of the

consumer, taking away their rights to resell your product significantly impacts the worth of your

item. Hope you plan to lower your prices to compensate... like Steam for instance which has won

over many customers with its 75-90% off sales. When you lock a product down, it loses significant

value, and value is ALL about perception.

I agree entirely with the above. Hopefully we'd have seen an environment exactly like that on xboxone. Steam sales end up generating significant revenue for everyone involved and great consumer value when compared to original / normal list price.

I'd been advocating at some of their senior IEB management to investigate kickstarter style in UI crowdsourced funding for indie projects.


The person selling second hand Hex cards is taking money right out of Cryptozoic's pocket!

no, they print their own loot we hunt. CZE are a guild organizing gold DKP runs, but are GMs too, creating the drop tables and encounters. They always win. They own the strata in which this occurs. House rules.

sckolar
06-22-2013, 11:19 PM
You know, I'm surprised that this change is making some players now want to buy the Xbox One, regardless of it being a good change, and this is why: "We can change all right, services, blah blah blah". Seriously, after what MS just tried to pull, how can anyone trust them? They could just change the rules back once a handful of people buy the Xbox One.

Milamber
06-23-2013, 03:12 AM
Errrrrrr Xbox minus one!??