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BlindMan
06-22-2013, 09:21 AM
I have seen a couple of cards so far that could potentially kill a troop before it has been drawn from your deck. Shown here:

765
Mortar Strike (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=27)

766
Spirit Dance (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=133)

I can see where a permanent -2 [DEF] might just leave you with a troop that dies once it's cast. But it looks like Mortar Strike can do damage to a troop in the top 3 cards of your deck. Does that mean that troops in your deck can die and go to your graveyard as though they were in play?

If so, does that mean that for decks that deal in graveyard manipulation, killing troops in your own deck could be a valid tutor-style effect to access powerful troops?

Yoss
06-22-2013, 09:41 AM
I had the same question when I saw Mortar Strike.

Avaian
06-22-2013, 09:56 AM
I was also wondering about this.

The two cards you linked I think will work differently though, these are my thoughts on how it would work.

Mortar Strike would send any troop that would die from the damage to the graveyard.

Spirit dance would give the card a minimum of 0 defense but not remove it from the deck. If you drew the card it would be a x attack, 0 defense creature that would die once it got into play.

Ju66ernaut
06-22-2013, 10:20 AM
I have seen

X-D

No one else? Really?

Corpselocker
06-22-2013, 10:30 AM
I'd also like an answer. If they were forced to draw a 'dead' card, that ramps up the power a great deal.

BlindMan
06-22-2013, 10:30 AM
X-D

No one else? Really?

I'm pretty sure if everything I saw was automatically not seen by everyone else, I would be killed as a hazard to the world.

Rapkannibale
06-22-2013, 10:38 AM
I don't have the official answer, but since the rule is that when a troop dies it goes into the discard pile, I would imagine that would be the case no matter on what zone the troop died. So if a troop gets 3 damage while in your deck, and those three damage would kill it, I would assume it would go into your discard pile.

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 10:47 AM
I don't have the official answer, but since the rule is that when a troop dies it goes into the discard pile, I would imagine that would be the case no matter on what zone the troop died. So if a troop gets 3 damage while in your deck, and those three damage would kill it, I would assume it would go into your discard pile.

If it works this way then it's too easy. I'll break the game.

Rapkannibale
06-22-2013, 11:00 AM
If it works this way then it's too easy. I'll break the game.

Why would it break the game?

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 11:03 AM
Why would it break the game?

There are certain ways to abuse that mechanic depending on how it's implemented. It would be best if the card remains in the deck if it is reduced to below zero. Either way I'd like to see a ruling on this for both cards.

Hemlock
06-22-2013, 11:09 AM
There are certain ways to abuse that mechanic depending on how it's implemented.

Please do elaborate, rather than just insisting it would be a broken mechanic.

It strikes me as far more overpowered to make the opponent draw the "dead" card, as Corpselocker said. The card disadvantage would be crippling. I'd imagine the card would be put in the graveyard.

Punk
06-22-2013, 11:10 AM
I have seen a couple of cards so far that could potentially kill a troop before it has been drawn from your deck. Shown here:

765
Mortar Strike (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=27)

766
Spirit Dance (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=133)

I can see where a permanent -2 [DEF] might just leave you with a troop that dies once it's cast. But it looks like Mortar Strike can do damage to a troop in the top 3 cards of your deck. Does that mean that troops in your deck can die and go to your graveyard as though they were in play?

If so, does that mean that for decks that deal in graveyard manipulation, killing troops in your own deck could be a valid tutor-style effect to access powerful troops?

It goes to your graveyard. Use this card as a reference point of a Troop still in your deck losing all of its defense:

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/sItB0sx.jpg

I do understand that Zombie Plague does state what to do with that card as opposed to Mortar Strike or Spirit Dance.. but this is a safe assumption.

You know what would answer this question? Comprehensive Rules. I will keep saying it until they finally give them to us. I find it kind of stupid to release a majority of all of the PvP cards and half of the Champions with no more information than starter rules (See: TCG Basics).

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 11:17 AM
Please do elaborate, rather than just insisting it would be a broken mechanic.

It strikes me as far more overpowered to make the opponent draw the "dead" card, as Corpselocker said. The card disadvantage would be crippling. I'd imagine the card would be put in the graveyard.

If it goes to grave just when it's dealt damage then it would be ok. If it goes to the grave when it's below 0 then we have a problem.

greytemplar
06-22-2013, 11:24 AM
It goes to your graveyard. Use this card as a reference point of a Troop still in your deck losing all of its defense:

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/sItB0sx.jpg

I do understand that Zombie Plague does state what to do with that card as opposed to Mortar Strike or Spirit Dance.. but this is a safe assumption.

You know what would answer this question? Comprehensive Rules. I will keep saying it until they finally give them to us. I find it kind of stupid to release a majority of all of the PvP cards and half of the Champions with no more information than starter rules (See: TCG Basics).

That card doesn't actually give troops -1/-1 until they are revealed however. So they technically are not in the deck at all.

Punk
06-22-2013, 11:27 AM
That card doesn't actually give troops -1/-1 until they are revealed however. So they technically are not in the deck at all.

Yes, it is still in your deck. Are you trying to tell me that if you have a card in play that states: "Play with the top card of your library revealed," that the revealed card is not in your deck anymore? So when I draw a card, I draw the one underneath it instead?

I'm sorry, but your statement is completely inaccurate.

snarvid
06-22-2013, 11:41 AM
Also, with the right PVE gear, Tectonic Break can destroy creatures while still in deck based on their DEF. so creatures have consult able DEF scores while still in deck.

Now, we don't know whether all creatures in deck or play with 0 DEF die at end of step, or all creatures in play with 0 Def due at end of step. We know it isn't all creatures everywhere, or else you could infinite death loop creatures with on death effects (like Fooo Manshroom). Also, not sure what the "stack" timing would be, but there are at least 2 troops with 0 def, modified by certain factors. Depending on when the 0 def state was checked, these troops might never survive long enough to get their intended buffs.

My guess is: when a troop anywhere receives damage => def, it goes to graveyard. When a creature in play has 0 def, it goes to graveyard.

HyenaNipples
06-22-2013, 11:49 AM
I don't see how there is any problem at all.

Mortar Strike is just a rather weak mill card- only being able to mill troops with 3 defense or less- and that's if they happen to be in the top three of the deck.

Any card not killed will just heal automatically at the end of the turn it is played.

At (5) cost, Mortar Strike is broken awful, not broken OP.

Rapkannibale
06-22-2013, 11:53 AM
I don't see how there is any problem at all.

Mortar Strike is just a rather weak mill card- only being able to mill troops with 3 defense or less- and that's if they happen to be in the top three of the deck.

Any card not killed will just heal automatically at the end of the turn it is played.

At (5) cost, Mortar Strike is broken awful, not broken OP.

Agree here. This card is extremely inconsistent. You might spend 5 damage and do absolutely nothing. Even if you are running some deck that gets to look at the opponents cards on top of their deck tr card is stil mediocre at best.

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 11:56 AM
Agree here. This card is extremely inconsistent. You might spend 5 damage and do absolutely nothing. Even if you are running some deck that gets to look at the opponents cards on top of their deck tr card is stil mediocre at best.

Yeah. That one doesn't concern me. I'm more worried with the mechanics of Spirit Dance.

Punk
06-22-2013, 12:04 PM
At (5) cost, Mortar Strike is broken awful, not broken OP.

Seems pretty good to me against aggro decks as a sideboard choice. Would be best in a mill deck as a sideboard choice though.

Qorsair
06-22-2013, 12:04 PM
X-D

No one else? Really?

I laughed. :)

For everyone who didn't get it -- look at the OP's username.

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 12:59 PM
I laughed. :)

For everyone who didn't get it -- look at the OP's username.
I like that the user didn't even get it

I'm pretty sure if everything I saw was automatically not seen by everyone else, I would be killed as a hazard to the world.

Diesbudt
06-22-2013, 01:02 PM
It gets put into the graveyard. Same thing as the one card in the stream. Reveal a card from opponents hand, if tropp it gets a perma -2/-2 and when dropped to 0 it would go in the graveyard from hand. So i assume the deck is the same way.

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 01:07 PM
It gets put into the graveyard. Same thing as the one card in the stream. Reveal a card from opponents hand, if tropp it gets a perma -2/-2 and when dropped to 0 it would go in the graveyard from hand. So i assume the deck is the same way.

I really really hope reducing defense to less than 0 (by ways other than dmg) doesn't put a card from the deck to the grave. If it does then they will have to emergency ban for constructed.

Punk
06-22-2013, 01:08 PM
I really really hope reducing defense to less than 0 (by ways other than dmg) doesn't put a card from the deck to the grave. If it does then they will have to emergency ban for constructed.

What?

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:09 PM
I assume you're talking about killing a bunch of your troops with spirit dance, and then doing something with them in the graveyard. I'd just like to point out that a permanent -2-2 does not go away when they die, so unless whatever you're going to do reverts your cards and then grabs them they'll just die again.

Eilinel
06-22-2013, 01:12 PM
It gets put into the graveyard. Same thing as the one card in the stream. Reveal a card from opponents hand, if tropp it gets a perma -2/-2 and when dropped to 0 it would go in the graveyard from hand. So i assume the deck is the same way.

I'd rather get confirmation on it rather than assume this behaviour. In the case of Spirit Dance, it seems like a terrible card if you're killing off all of your own troops in your deck with 2 or less defence. I'd much rather think that even if spirit dance brings the defence to <1 that it would not be destroyed until it resolves by coming into play. This would allow you to make use of inspire triggers to play the troop with the increased attack while still having positive defence values.

Although, conversely, if it did kill troops in your deck, in combination with Blessing the Fallen, this could be used to buff your larger troops even more. (No idea how potent this would be, but could be a fun thing to play around with).

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:14 PM
Right, blessing of the fallen in that case could be quite good indeed...

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 01:15 PM
I assume you're talking about killing a bunch of your troops with spirit dance, and then doing something with them in the graveyard. I'd just like to point out that a permanent -2-2 does not go away when they die, so unless whatever you're going to do reverts your cards and then grabs them they'll just die again.

I actually would just play a deck with an escalate card such as chronic madness. Everything else troops with low defense. The low defense troops can block until I get off spirit dance. The deck at that point will be thin enough to reliably draw the escalates over and over. There are multiple ways to abuse spirit dance though. They also have to think about how this card would interact with future cards. We only know a small portion of the first set.

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:18 PM
That's a great point. culling your 60 card deck down to escalations and instants would be incredibly strong.

Yoss
06-22-2013, 01:21 PM
You'd be resource glutted though. Maybe if you're running X-cost spells or draw spells it would work.

BlindMan
06-22-2013, 01:22 PM
I like that the user didn't even get it

Ever have someone make a joke about your t-shirt, and you have to look down to realize what the hell they are talking about? It's pretty much like that.

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 01:26 PM
You'd be resource glutted though.

It depends what actions you are running. Blue has a lot of draw actions to get you beyond the resources. By turn 5 you should have about 15 resources. If you hang onto all of the draw cards until after spirit dance lands then it should be no problem. I also assume they will eventually have a "spore frog" for wild and other prevent damage for a turn cards. If it's not a problem now then it will be in the future.

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:35 PM
It depends what actions you are running. Blue has a lot of draw actions to get you beyond the resources. By turn 5 you should have about 15 resources. If you hang onto all of the draw cards until after spirit dance lands then it should be no problem. I also assume they will eventually have a "spore frog" for wild and other prevent damage for a turn cards. If it's not a problem now then it will be in the future.
I would imagine if this was your strategy you could get away with running less resources in your deck.

Krenos
06-22-2013, 01:37 PM
Some effect knocked you down to 0 [Defense]?

It'sa me! Kraken Guard Mariner!

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/W5aan0u.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=23)

Brumby66
06-22-2013, 01:42 PM
I would imagine if this was your strategy you could get away with running less resources in your deck.

Oh most definitely. I haven't planned a deck on this and don't really want to. I don't really like these cheap strategies. I only play them if they are uncontested at top tier. I hope it doesn't work this way, but they are bound to miss one broken strategy. It's impossible to get them all.

Punk
06-22-2013, 01:48 PM
It's impossible to get them all.

Pretty sure I once saw a cartoon about catching them all.

Punk
06-22-2013, 01:51 PM
Also, I doubt this would work as I do not know exactly what "Destroyed" pertains to (See: Need Comprehensive Rules), but this card could be super valuable in this type of "Self Purge" deck strategy:

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/Q10wvPp.jpg

Spirit Rush [dot] deck.

Avignon
06-22-2013, 02:49 PM
In wow tcg you could have (and did have) 0/0 allies in your deck. You played them and if they entered play and still were 0/0 they instant died (yertle for instance). I would be confident Cze would do the same here.

ossuary
06-22-2013, 02:51 PM
Also, I doubt this would work as I do not know exactly what "Destroyed" pertains to (See: Need Comprehensive Rules), but this card could be super valuable in this type of "Self Purge" deck strategy:

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/Q10wvPp.jpg

Spirit Rush [dot] deck.

"you control" is the operator that makes your idea not work. To control a troop, they have to be in play. Spirit Dance doesn't put them in play. If it does anything to them besides make them have 0 or less defense while still in your deck, it moves them directly to the graveyard. So those 2 cards don't interact.

Even if they did, I don't see that as particularly powerful. So on turn 4 or 5, you would play spirit dance, and turn all the crappy creatures in your deck into 1/1 flyers in play. Sure that's a lot of creatures, but all it takes is the Hex equivalent of pyroclasm or hurricane, and your board is wiped, leaving you with nothing but an entire deck of resources and the remnants of your combo, with no creatures left to combo off of.

ossuary
06-22-2013, 02:54 PM
As to the OP, I would expect dealing damage to a card in your deck would send it to the graveyard, whereas having a creature with 0 defense does nothing unless you actually cast it. It's just a creature card in your hand that's a permanent 1/0 or whatever. Exceptions to this would be handled by the wording on the card (i.e. Zombie Plague, which specifically tells you to do something if the creature is reduced to 0 defense).

But of course, all we can do until we find out for sure from CZE is speculate. :)

Punk
06-22-2013, 03:11 PM
"you control" is the operator that makes your idea not work. To control a troop, they have to be in play. Spirit Dance doesn't put them in play. If it does anything to them besides make them have 0 or less defense while still in your deck, it moves them directly to the graveyard. So those 2 cards don't interact.

Even if they did, I don't see that as particularly powerful. So on turn 4 or 5, you would play spirit dance, and turn all the crappy creatures in your deck into 1/1 flyers in play. Sure that's a lot of creatures, but all it takes is the Hex equivalent of pyroclasm or hurricane, and your board is wiped, leaving you with nothing but an entire deck of resources and the remnants of your combo, with no creatures left to combo off of.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely agree with you.. but again this is all assumptions because who knows how "You Control" is actually defined.

We have only seen like 30 cards from the PvE set, so maybe somewhere within the other 330 cards they haven't shown us there is a Living Death type card. Possibly one that deals a point of damage to a Champion whenever a Troop card goes to your graveyard (with the appropriate wording/verbiage to insinuate that it does not have to be in play).

Jarric
06-22-2013, 07:08 PM
I broke the Fullmetal Alchemist game doing a deck very similar to what Brumby66 described. I dumped my whole deck into my graveyard and then was able to draw my whole deck into my hand on turn one. I am hoping that the word comes back that 0 def in your deck does not mean you go to the graveyard unless you take at least 1 pt of dmg. Otherwise I fear some of the decks myself and others will come up with that will ruin this game.

ossuary
06-22-2013, 07:52 PM
I wasn't playing Magic during the period where there was a lot of graveyard manipulation, but a friend of mine showed me a deck based on that idea that mills your own library very easily and for as many cards as you want (involving a guy who you mill 3 every time he is targeted by any effect), and then brings a giant dude into play by exiling creatures from your graveyard. He could get that to go off on turn 2 pretty consistently.

I'm not against that kind of thing being possible in Hex as long as there are counters available. Part of the fun of this kind of game is coming up with crazy combinations that nobody else thought of yet, and pulling it off.

Too bad we can't get our opponents' webcams to take a snapshot of their face for us when we pull a fast one and crush them out of nowhere. :)

Punk
06-22-2013, 10:04 PM
I wasn't playing Magic during the period where there was a lot of graveyard manipulation, but a friend of mine showed me a deck based on that idea that mills your own library very easily and for as many cards as you want (involving a guy who you mill 3 every time he is targeted by any effect), and then brings a giant dude into play by exiling creatures from your graveyard. He could get that to go off on turn 2 pretty consistently.

I'm not against that kind of thing being possible in Hex as long as there are counters available. Part of the fun of this kind of game is coming up with crazy combinations that nobody else thought of yet, and pulling it off.

Too bad we can't get our opponents' webcams to take a snapshot of their face for us when we pull a fast one and crush them out of nowhere. :)

More or less, the deck your friend was showing you was some variation of a Reaniimator deck.

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Reanimator

ossuary
06-22-2013, 10:21 PM
Yeah, after I posted, I was curious, so I went and found the cards.

Cephalid Illusionist to cycle your own library:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/tr/28.jpg

with the help of Nomads en-Kor to target the Cephalid for free repeatedly:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/sh/109.jpg

into a gigantic Sutured Ghoul to finish the deal (he used a red card to give it haste):
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ju/73.jpg

I'm sure there was other stuff going on in there as well, but that's all he showed me. He wasn't a fan of carbon copying decks from the internet (he hates those people), so he usually did a lot of tinkering and customizing (using Selective Memory on yourself in a turbo fog deck to eliminate the fluff is one of his favorite annoyance decks).

Aradon
06-22-2013, 10:28 PM
Per magic workings: if creatures in decks are being put into graveyards as a result of damage, they're being checked by state-based-effects as well, which means they'd go to the graveyard for having 0 defense. Until we see a creature with 0 toughness on the card, I would assume that 0 toughness in your deck automatically gets sent to the graveyard.

Which means I want to make a token generator deck that uses Spirit Dance and Blessing the Fallen to put all my X/2 troops into my graveyard to inspire all my other troops that I play :D

BlindMan
06-22-2013, 11:22 PM
So here's another question - since troops can take damage while in your deck (Mortar Strike), do all game text based modifications to ATK/DEF work while cards are in your deck?

770
Ozawa, Cosmic Elder (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=77)

It would be weird if you could kill off this troop with Mortar Strike. However, if you can't (assuming your health isn't too low), that would seem to suggest that it behaves more like a troop in play, where its ATK/DEF are being calculated based on the board state. That scenario would lend itself toward 0 toughness troops in your deck hitting the graveyard instead of dying when cast.

Edit: Re-reading Aradon's post, it looks like he's assuming basically the same thing as I am asking here. I think Ozawa is a good test case for why this might be true.

Punk
06-22-2013, 11:26 PM
I'm sure there was other stuff going on in there as well, but that's all he showed me. He wasn't a fan of carbon copying decks from the internet (he hates those people), so he usually did a lot of tinkering and customizing (using Selective Memory on yourself in a turbo fog deck to eliminate the fluff is one of his favorite annoyance decks).

There would be many ways to get this big creature into play, but the red card that gave it haste was Anger. When Anger is in your graveyard, creatures you have haste.

Showsni
06-23-2013, 12:05 AM
Yeah, after I posted, I was curious, so I went and found the cards.


Cephalid Illusionist/Nomad en-Kor is a pretty fun combo, yeah. (Well, not so fun for the other guy...) These days, of course, there are cards that would just let you win the turn you landed them both. Dump your deck into your graveyard including four copies of Bridge from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136054), Narcomoeba (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136140), Dread Return (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721) and Flame-kin Zealot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83562), and you can flood the entire board with hasty zombies and swing for lethal (plus whatever else you want to reanimate). The Dredge deck works around the same principle, but instead of using the Cephalid combo to dump the deck in the graveyard it uses the dredge mechanic (if a card with Dredge X is in your graveyard, you can replace drawing a card with putting the top X cards of your library into your graveyard and returning it to your hand).

Gwaer
06-23-2013, 12:10 AM
Ozawa bewing 0 def answers the question about spirit dance I think. -2 in your deck doesn't send anything to the graveyard.

BlindMan
06-23-2013, 12:14 AM
Ozawa bewing 0 def answers the question about spirit dance I think. -2 in your deck doesn't send anything to the graveyard.

If Ozawa is 0 DEF in your deck though, does that mean Mortar Strike kills him?

Gwaer
06-23-2013, 12:19 AM
Probably, yes?

Joolz
06-23-2013, 02:07 AM
If it works this way then it's too easy. I'll break the game.

I'm still waiting to see this supposed game breaking combo.

I'm pretty sure every tcg has some "unbeatable" combo out there. Yes they're fun but they always end up with playing 3+ cards at once or in very specific order. That doesn't mean a game is broken. Sure 1 out of every 20 games your combo will hit and you'll win instantly but otherwise you get your ass kicked.

Brumby66
06-23-2013, 04:53 AM
Erm. I already said it... Trust me. It's not a 1 out of 20 games thing. It's an everytime spirit dance goes off thing. Anything that can slim your deck by 40 cards is not good for the game and is asking to be abused.

snarvid
06-23-2013, 10:09 AM
I mentioned the 0 def troops back in post 16, but it doesn't definitively answer it. It depends when 0 def status is checked. Ozawa may have his special buff active while still in your deck.

ossuary
06-23-2013, 10:46 AM
The "all zones" wording they've used on some cards makes me wonder what other fun stuff we could see to mess with the expected mechanics of a TCG in this game. For example, what about a troop that buffs the other troops that are still in your deck, instead of the troops currently in play? A payoff later kind of situation. "When Inspirational Speaker enters play, all troops in your deck get permanent +2/+2" - could be fun to mess around with off the wall stuff like this.

Aradon
06-23-2013, 10:59 AM
There's a PvE Shrine of Prosperity card that I'm in love with. While in play, it reveals the top card of your library every upkeep. If it's a troop, it gets +1/+1, if it's a resource, it gets an extra charge, and if it's an action, it costs 1 less. It's got two neat equipment, though. The legendary is that it reveals the top two cards (so it hits each card twice before you draw it), and the rare equipment says that while it's in your library, it modifies the card beneath it every turn. So, when you draw it, you know your next card is going to have been buffed once for every turn the game's been going :D

ossuary
06-23-2013, 12:14 PM
Yeah, I want to include 4 of those in every deck, it's an awesome sounding card.

Beastmaster
06-24-2013, 06:19 AM
I mentioned the 0 def troops back in post 16, but it doesn't definitively answer it. It depends when 0 def status is checked. Ozawa may have his special buff active while still in your deck.

I agree, from what we have seen, its likely that Ozawa will have atk and def equal to your health in green even whilst in your deck. The 0,0 is just for displaying the card outside the game. Otherwise Mortar Strike just doesn't make sense.

If there are some wild mana creatures like llanowar elves, you could cut down on resources in your deck and more effectively access the wincon cards. Im thinking Jadiim, Eye of Creation, Clorophillia, Spirit Dance and a bunch of Shin'hare..

Mavian
06-24-2013, 06:41 AM
It wouldn't be discarded to the graveyard, it would just remain in the deck with a zero or negative value. The card was never in play or played, so it wouldn't have resolved onto the field to check for a live or dead state. There's been plenty of cards in other TCGs that have 0/0 attack and life but upon coming into play gain X +1/1 counters. In the deck they're still 0/0 but resolve into play with the X +1/1 counters.

So if you have a card that is reduced to 0/0 or negative in your deck and you then play that card, it would hit the field, resolve, then go to the graveyard.

At least that's how it should sensibly play out, else it would mess up draws and make mill decks pretty insane as more sets come out and more combos can be introduced.

Viziroth
06-24-2013, 06:57 AM
I believe if a card is reduced to 0 def in a deck it'll stay in the deck, but if it takes damage greater than or equal to it's defense, it'll go to the graveyard. Otherwise cards like mortar strike would be useless and playing the wild card that gives your guys -2/-2 you'd be able to construct a 10 card deck(just fill the rest with 1/1's or 2/2's.)

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 07:44 AM
I agree, from what we have seen, its likely that Ozawa will have atk and def equal to your health in green even whilst in your deck. The 0,0 is just for displaying the card outside the game. Otherwise Mortar Strike just doesn't make sense.

This is the first post in this thread that I can actually get behind.


It wouldn't be discarded to the graveyard, it would just remain in the deck with a zero or negative value. The card was never in play or played, so it wouldn't have resolved onto the field to check for a live or dead state. There's been plenty of cards in other TCGs that have 0/0 attack and life but upon coming into play gain X +1/1 counters. In the deck they're still 0/0 but resolve into play with the X +1/1 counters.

So if you have a card that is reduced to 0/0 or negative in your deck and you then play that card, it would hit the field, resolve, then go to the graveyard.

At least that's how it should sensibly play out, else it would mess up draws and make mill decks pretty insane as more sets come out and more combos can be introduced.

This is one of many that I wholeheartedly disagree with.


We've already seen cards that interact with your deck. The two significant cards mentioned were Zombie Plague and Shrine of Prosperity. I'm of the opinion that cards are in a persistent state of being. Most of the changes in this game are permanent; if something gets -2 toughness, that change is made regardless of its current zone (deck, graveyard, hand, whatever). Given the wording of Mortar Strike, I think it's fairly obvious that Crypto is looking to take advantage of the digital-only platform by doing things in-game that most other games couldn't do. If your troop takes lethal damage in your deck, he's immediately going to the graveyard [upon spell resolution]. You don't need to first draw him or cast him. If your troop's defense is lowered to 0, it is immediately sent to the graveyard; if that reduction was permanent, the change will remain even while it is in your graveyard. Ozawa does not have a toughness of 0, he has a toughness equal to your life total. This isn't a standard paper game - Magic and WoW had to do things the way they did because they were limited by the platform. I think you're going to find out that Ozawa's atk/def values are equal to your life total from the very moment the game starts, regardless of the zone he is in.
If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow. I don't think I'm going to be, though. I really think we're going to find out that every troop (or any card) exist in a persistent state throughout the game and - as such - are committed to the appropriate behaviors.

edit: Wrote the wrong card name in there.

Jbizzi
06-24-2013, 07:50 AM
I would agree with you RobHaven but you cannot have a card like that simply removes cards from your or your opponent's deck.

It would give you a significant advantage if this were the case. However, given the alternative where you draw the card and it simply becomes useless in your hand... also an advantage to your opponent.

It is hard to say how these effects are going to interact with the zones of play.

Brumby66
06-24-2013, 07:50 AM
If your troop's defense is lowered to 0, it is immediately sent to the graveyard; if that reduction was permanent, the change will remain even while it is in your graveyard.

So you see nothing wrong with this statement and what it means for spirit dance?

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 07:53 AM
I don't think that "it makes this card too good" is a valid argument.
What about Spirit Dance makes you think that having the cards remain in your deck makes more sense? Talk to me about mechanics, not about play value.


edit: removed a sentence so it's less redundant

Unhurtable
06-24-2013, 08:01 AM
I would agree with you RobHaven but you cannot have a card like that simply removes cards from your or your opponent's deck.

It would give you a significant advantage if this were the case. However, given the alternative where you draw the card and it simply becomes useless in your hand... also an advantage to your opponent.

It is hard to say how these effects are going to interact with the zones of play.

How is drawing a useless card better than just seeing that card be thrown into the graveyard?
The way I see it, if I get to draw a "dead card", I've lost my chance at getting a better one that I could've gotten if the card was simply thrown into the graveyard when Zombie Plague "killed" my unit.

Brumby66
06-24-2013, 08:02 AM
The fact that I can cut 40+ cards from my deck on turn 4 doesn't worry you? If it does send all my trash troops to the grave then I'm going to eye of creation all my stronger cards out because they are all that's left. I'm talking about specific cards because if they use that method then they need to ban spirit dance.

Mavian
06-24-2013, 08:37 AM
This is the first post in this thread that I can actually get behind.



This is one of many that I wholeheartedly disagree with.


We've already seen cards that interact with your deck. The two significant cards mentioned were Zombie Plague and Shrine of Prosperity. I'm of the opinion that cards are in a persistent state of being. Most of the changes in this game are permanent; if something gets -2 toughness, that change is made regardless of its current zone (deck, graveyard, hand, whatever). Given the wording of Mortar Strike, I think it's fairly obvious that Crypto is looking to take advantage of the digital-only platform by doing things in-game that most other games couldn't do. If your troop takes lethal damage in your deck, he's immediately going to the graveyard [upon spell resolution]. You don't need to first draw him or cast him. If your troop's defense is lowered to 0, it is immediately sent to the graveyard; if that reduction was permanent, the change will remain even while it is in your graveyard. Ozawa does not have a toughness of 0, he has a toughness equal to your life total. This isn't a standard paper game - Magic and WoW had to do things the way they did because they were limited by the platform. I think you're going to find out that Ozawa's atk/def values are equal to your life total from the very moment the game starts, regardless of the zone he is in.
If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow. I don't think I'm going to be, though. I really think we're going to find out that every troop (or any card) exist in a persistent state throughout the game and - as such - are committed to the appropriate behaviors.

edit: Wrote the wrong card name in there.

I'm only basing on speculation on how other TCGs (Magic and WoWTCG namely) work in this situation. The deck and hand aren't active play zones, so regardless of their def, unless the modifier is specific in regards to what happens when the troop in the deck or hand is 0 or negative, it's just a card in hand and if you play that troop, it immediately dies upon resolving into play. Troops with 0 def aren't immediately removed from the deck or hand into the graveyard simply for being 0 while not in play.

Zombie Plague is specific in regards to its outcome when a troop's def becomes zero. Spirit Dance has no resolution other than troops receive +2/-2 and -2 resources. Lets say you have board troop pump constants on the board that gives 0/+3. Though the stated def on a card might be 0, once it resolves into play, it would have +3 def from any board pumps.

So I would say unless the card is specific as to what happens when an affected troop's def reaches 0 or negative, it's just a troop with zero def that dies upon being played if there's nothing in play that would raise that troop's def to at least 1.

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 08:40 AM
I'll say it again, it's obvious cards in your deck can be at 0 without going to the graveyard, taking damage in your deck down to 0 would send it to the graveyard, so mortar would kill stuff, spirit dance would not.

Brumby66
06-24-2013, 08:40 AM
You could also use other cards like shrine of prosperity to pump it back up before you play it.

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 09:15 AM
I'm only basing on speculation on how other TCGs (Magic and WoWTCG namely) work in this situation.
As stated, I don't think you can follow their precedence in all matters. How many cards evolve in a manner similar to Escalation? The games are comparable, but not in every way.


The deck and hand aren't active play zones, so regardless of their def, unless the modifier is specific in regards to what happens when the troop in the deck or hand is 0 or negative, it's just a card in hand and if you play that troop, it immediately dies upon resolving into play. Troops with 0 def aren't immediately removed from the deck or hand into the graveyard simply for being 0 while not in play.

Zombie Plague is specific in regards to its outcome when a troop's def becomes zero. Spirit Dance has no resolution other than troops receive +2/-2 and -2 resources. Lets say you have board troop pump constants on the board that gives 0/+3. Though the stated def on a card might be 0, once it resolves into play, it would have +3 def from any board pumps.
The deck and hand aren't active play zones, but they're still zones. And we already know the cards in those zones can affected and permanently altered without ever entering an active zone.
Zombie Plague has a specifically stated impact on the troop because it's effect is so different. They're reverting the card and putting into play for you; that's not going to be the norm.


I'll say it again, it's obvious cards in your deck can be at 0 without going to the graveyard, taking damage in your deck down to 0 would send it to the graveyard, so mortar would kill stuff, spirit dance would not.

How is this obvious? Can you use specific examples? I don't mind being wrong, but I'd appreciate it if you could show me the evidence for it. If you're referring to Ozawa or the Legionnaire of Adamanth, I've already said how I'm of the opinion that their values are established as soon as the game begins (and adjust as necessary). If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears, but I certainly wouldn't say a difference of opinion constitutes an "obvious" functioning of mechanic.
If the only evidence you have to support your claim is "I don't think it works that way" or "card X is too good if it works that way," then I guess we're at an impasse.

ossuary
06-24-2013, 09:56 AM
To be fair, your opinion is also based on your gut feeling and not proof.

The whole point is that there IS no proof, not now at least. Until there is, an impasse is all the two of you can possibly have.

KJ_TO
06-24-2013, 10:09 AM
So I played Hex at NACC and my opponent (daughter) used a creature that put a 1/1 creature from her graveyard on top of her library. On my turn I played a creature that revealed her next card and if it was a creature reduced it's stats by -2/-2 permanently. It did not remove the card from her deck. She drew it on the next turn and it had a -1/-1 for stats. In addition after she played it the creature died immediately and went to the graveyard.

Obviously I can't say that is the end state for the mechanic but that is how it played in our game a week ago.

KJ

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 10:09 AM
I said as much in my first post. I said it was my opinion, and then I delivered my argument for opinion with as much information as I could gather. By no means am I under the misconception that my word is a statement of fact. I'm only asking for the information that led him to his point. If there's something beyond Spirit Dance, I'd like to know so I can take it into consideration.

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 10:10 AM
So I played Hex at NACC and my opponent (daughter) used a creature that put a 1/1 creature from her graveyard on top of her library. On my turn I played a creature that revealed her next card and if it was a creature reduced it's stats by -2/-2 permanently. It did not remove the card from her deck. She drew it on the next turn and it had a -1/-1 for stats. In addition after she played it the creature died immediately and went to the graveyard.

Obviously I can't say that is the end state for the mechanic but that is how it played in our game a week ago.

KJ

This is exactly what I meant when I asked for evidence. Hard to argue against something like actual gameplay. Time to eat crow. :(

edit: evidence/information...you know what I meant

ZacPhoenix
06-24-2013, 10:39 AM
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130516110026/hextcg/images/thumb/8/8b/OzawaCosmicElder.png/300px-OzawaCosmicElder.png

No it doesn't have X/X while in the deck, because it is card effect text, so it doesn't apply until it hits the field. Otherwise, the effect text on all cards in your deck would be active before they are drawn and played. That would cause havok.

Pay attention to the wording: "this card gets", as opposed to has. Gets shows that it's an activated thing, and it's activated when it is played on the field. When a card hits the field, all the card effect text gets activated at that time.

It is a 0/0 while in the deck, as indicated on the card itself. The only reason it is even relevant what stats it has at all in the deck is due to the effects of cards like Zombie Plague and Shrine of Prosperity which we know interact with the stats of cards while in the deck.

Anyone is welcome to suggest why I am wrong if they believe so.

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 10:40 AM
This is exactly what I meant when I asked for evidence. Hard to argue against something like actual gameplay. Time to eat crow. :(

edit: evidence/information...you know what I meant
Deduction is a skill, you can learn it, just takes a little practice.

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 10:46 AM
Deduction is a skill, you can learn it, just takes a little practice.

Ignoring the condescending nature of your comment, I'll just address the point of it: I used deductive reasoning, but came to a different conclusion. Everyone was applying speculation until KJ_TO came in - let's not pretend like there was only one possible outcome.

If nothing else, at least the concerns over Spirit Dance can be put to rest. But knowing that a <1 defense troop stays in the deck certainly makes me see cards with those effects differently (eg: Zombie Plague).

ossuary
06-24-2013, 11:24 AM
Ignoring the condescending nature of your comment, I'll just address the point of it: I used deductive reasoning, but came to a different conclusion. Everyone was applying speculation until KJ_TO came in - let's not pretend like there was only one possible outcome.

If nothing else, at least the concerns over Spirit Dance can be put to rest. But knowing that a <1 defense troop stays in the deck certainly makes me see cards with those effects differently (eg: Zombie Plague).

No, you're right. Nobody can legitimately claim that their opinion was the only possible opinion (but being right sure feels good ;)).

What I find interesting about KJ_TO's information, combined with ZacPhoenix's very astute observation about the card text, is that it's now pretty heavily implied that Ozawa would be killed by Mortar Strike regardless of your health, AND also be taken out by Zombie Plague with a single counter (since until he is cast, his life is 0).

I think we will see some very interesting interactions between certain effects and cards not yet in play... and some people who can't move past the old MtG way of thinking may find themselves at very big, unexpected disadvantages. :)

ossuary
06-24-2013, 11:27 AM
This whole thing also makes Inspire even more interesting when combined with Spirit Dance, as long as you have enough stuff in play to let you cast your negative health guys without them dying. It could lead to a lot of near-zero casting cost troops, with lots of interactive Inspire buffs. This could be a very viable deck configuration, if you can find a decent way to draw more cards to take advantage of the low costs.

Avaian
06-24-2013, 11:34 AM
I am not so sure Zombie Plague affects Ozawa.

Zombie Plague states 'If a troops defense is reduced to 0 this way' and if Ozawa is already at 0 Defense, than it would be reduced to -1 or remains at 0, without ever being reduced to 0.

There are a couple interactions we will continue to have trouble defining until the Rules are listed.

ossuary
06-24-2013, 11:39 AM
I think that's a pretty flimsy reason to assume Zombie Plague wouldn't affect him, to be honest. Yes, as always, we won't KNOW until we know, but it seems quite clear to me that less than 0 will be treated the same as actually 0.

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 11:44 AM
If nothing else, at least the concerns over Spirit Dance can be put to rest. But knowing that a <1 defense troop stays in the deck certainly makes me see cards with those effects differently (eg: Zombie Plague).

Not that it's relevant to what you're currently talking about, but this was a shitty example and I wanted to correct it.
My intention was to point out that cards reducing your opponent's not-yet-drawn troops to less than 1 offer a lot more value to me since it's more than likely to be a dead draw for them.