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hammer
06-22-2013, 12:39 PM
1) The kickstarter Tiers receive equipment for all of the Exclusive PVP and PVE cards I assume that you get one of each of the equipment even though you get multiple copies of the card?

2) If you multi-pledged I assume that you would get to stack the extra set of equipment (for each tier that you merge) and would therefore have spare equipment to sell.

3) Is the equipment exclusive to the kickstarter or will these be available from raids / dungeons and chests?

4) I assume that the spectal lotus equipment will be useful and sought after by people buying spectral lotus from those generating them with gardens? - If (2 above is correct, and 3 above is exclusive) then the extra set of spectal Lotus equipment would be a nice sellable extra for mutli-pledgers?

Sorry if these have been answered before but it just came to my mind when looking at the KS rewards again.
Thanks - Hammer

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 12:48 PM
1) The kickstarter Tiers receive equipment for all of the Exclusive PVP and PVE cards I assume that you get one of each of the equipment even though you get multiple copies of the card?

2) If you multi-pledged I assume that you would get to stack the extra set of equipment (for each tier that you merge) and would therefore have spare equipment to sell.

3) Is the equipment exclusive to the kickstarter or will these be available from raids / dungeons and chests?

4) I assume that the spectal lotus equipment will be useful and sought after by people buying spectral lotus from those generating them with gardens? - If (2 above is correct, and 3 above is exclusive) then the extra set of spectal Lotus equipment would be a nice sellable extra for mutli-pledgers?

Sorry if these have been answered before but it just came to my mind when looking at the KS rewards again.
Thanks - Hammer

1) Can't tell for sure but getting one piece of equipment per pledge seems more reasonable to me (so multiple pledges-multiple equipment)
2) If the above is true, then yes
3)For exclusive KS cards i bet it will be exclusive, so can't be dropped in game
4)Assuming that the above is true then yes it will be exclusive too

GreyWorm
06-22-2013, 12:49 PM
make sense to give more then one set of equipment, if not, for kings and lower it will be a better deal just to split the accounts, give all items to one acount, and give the "empty" tier to a friend.
that way he will get all the mercs, the alpha and beta, and you will not loose a thing.
Well, maybe only the 3 month VIP, but you will be a good friend...

Bailin
06-22-2013, 12:51 PM
My assumption is that gear is bind on equip, and the gear will be already equipped. If, however, they are separate then I agree with above answers.

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 12:55 PM
My assumption is that gear is bind on equip, and the gear will be already equipped. If, however, they are separate then I agree with above answers.

I don't think that we will be given the equipment 'equipped'. Most probably as a bunch in our inventories. So i bet extra copies can be traded

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 12:55 PM
My assumption is that gear is bind on equip, and the gear will be already equipped. If, however, they are separate then I agree with above answers.
I will be table flippin' mad if gear is boe.
Any gear. Ever.

Bailin
06-22-2013, 12:59 PM
Yikes, I'm nailing down my tables. My assumption is regardless if our initial exclusive gear is not equipped that all gear will be BoE. It only makes sense with the collectable nature of it all. It's the PVE side so it's all a "free" asset. They need to restrict it's volume somehow for the sake of rarity.
I'm not saying I like it, but boy am I preparing myself for it.

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:02 PM
Yikes, I'm nailing down my tables. My assumption is regardless if our initial exclusive gear is not equipped that all gear will be BoE. It only makes sense with the collectable nature of it all. It's the PVE side so it's all a "free" asset. They need to restrict it's volume somehow for the sake of rarity.
I'm not saying I like it, but boy am I preparing myself for it.
I refuse to prepare for this, because it is unthinkable. When you make a pve deck, equipment is going to be a huge part of that, if you decide you're doing a new deck or are tired of it, and it has a lot of good cards and you want to sell it, you better be able to sell the equipment for it as well.

Trying out decks, you just have to imagine how it would work with the equipment?... No it is unthinkable.

hammer
06-22-2013, 01:02 PM
Bailin - really! I would be shocked if this were the case.

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 01:04 PM
I will be table flippin' mad if gear is boe.
Any gear. Ever.

I know the feeling hate boe items too, but given the games' ties to wow, i have my doubts. Not that i have something official to back it up , just a tingle on my spine

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 01:09 PM
Trying out decks, you just have to imagine how it would work with the equipment?... No it is unthinkable.

Actually it makes sense; u got ur pool of equipment, and what u miss u have to go out hunt. What u buy will be other ppl's spares

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:11 PM
Actually it makes sense; u got ur pool of equipment, and what u miss u have to go out hunt. What u buy will be other ppl's spares
How does that make sense? They're talking about legendary items being ridiculously chasey you figure a dungeon run takes 5-8 hours, the last boss has a %1 chance to drop legendary items, someone has to get 2 before one goes on the market, and everyone that gets it and has the card it's for will automatically try it out to see how the awesome effect feels. It makes no sense at all to make them boe.

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 01:22 PM
How does that make sense? They're talking about legendary items being ridiculously chasey you figure a dungeon run takes 5-8 hours, the last boss has a %1 chance to drop legendary items, someone has to get 2 before one goes on the market, and everyone that gets it and has the card it's for will automatically try it out to see how the awesome effect feels. It makes no sense at all to make them boe.

We are talking about the pve part of the game; it ought to be a little grindy. Just like wow; u kept running that given dungeon for days/weeks till u get what u wanted.

BossHoss
06-22-2013, 01:32 PM
CZE has told me in PM that equipment is tradable so it would not be bound...

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:33 PM
We are talking about the pve part of the game; it ought to be a little grindy. Just like wow; u kept running that given dungeon for days/weeks till u get what u wanted.
The dungeon runs take much longer, they've also hinted that at least some of the dungeons will cycle out. This is a trading card game, there's a difference between a little grindy, and ridiculous. Also, you should be able to trade all of your things for other things. Its the nature of a TCG.


CZE has told me in PM that equipment is tradable so it would not be bound...
You're a saint.

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 01:35 PM
CZE has told me in PM that equipment is tradable so it would not be bound...

We already knew that equipment can be traded; what were arguing about was whether the equipment will be bound to u when used.

Gwaer
06-22-2013, 01:37 PM
We already knew that equipment can be traded; what were arguing about was whether the equipment will be bound to u when used.
It's literally unfathomable to me that they will do that. I despise that system in wow, in a TCG I'd rather be kicked in the nuts.

Shadowelf
06-22-2013, 01:43 PM
It's literally unfathomable to me that they will do that. I despise that system in wow, in a TCG I'd rather be kicked in the nuts.

As i said before i'm with u on this ; but just because u me and a hundred others don't like it, it doesn't mean there is no chance it will be implemented. Pve will be free; therefore the currency of pve could be time (grind) just like the currency of pvp is $

GreyGriffin
06-23-2013, 10:42 AM
If CZE wants equipment to be "chasey," then they are going to have to have BoP/BoE equipment. What are trash drops to raiding guilds are solid gold to casuals. (Or plat, for wallet warriors.)

Being able to sell your old gear, assuming gear progresses in tiers of rarity and value obsoletes the content that gives lesser gear, especially once the market reaches a certain saturation point. The optimum use of time becomes whatever gives you the most gold rather than going for the rare drops. This makes Korean style grind gameplay your best option which is no fun.

Now, with the nature of gear as it is, the potential for imbalance is still there. But if top-tier guilds grind out top-tier raids every day and sell the spoils on the AH, why band together with your friends and your guildies and strategize to approach the content on your own level, when the rewards are hanging right there for x thousand gold?

BoP and BoE is annoying. Especially with limited bank space, as I tend to get sentimental with my gear. But in order for the endgame arc to have any longevity that's really the way it has to be, unless things are exponentially rarer.

Gwaer
06-23-2013, 10:55 AM
That is not how it has to be if PVE cards and PVE gear are tied to specific PVE dungeons and those dungeons rotate in and out of the game. Also these dungeons take significantly longer than wow dungeons. Or even Everquest dungeons. Boe and bop are lazy mechanics and it would be folly of the highest order to introduce them to a tcg.

Shadowelf
06-23-2013, 11:03 AM
If CZE wants equipment to be "chasey," then they are going to have to have BoP/BoE equipment. What are trash drops to raiding guilds are solid gold to casuals. (Or plat, for wallet warriors.)

Being able to sell your old gear, assuming gear progresses in tiers of rarity and value obsoletes the content that gives lesser gear, especially once the market reaches a certain saturation point. The optimum use of time becomes whatever gives you the most gold rather than going for the rare drops. This makes Korean style grind gameplay your best option which is no fun.

Now, with the nature of gear as it is, the potential for imbalance is still there. But if top-tier guilds grind out top-tier raids every day and sell the spoils on the AH, why band together with your friends and your guildies and strategize to approach the content on your own level, when the rewards are hanging right there for x thousand gold?

BoP and BoE is annoying. Especially with limited bank space, as I tend to get sentimental with my gear. But in order for the endgame arc to have any longevity that's really the way it has to be, unless things are exponentially rarer.

I won't say it is necessary to implement boe items, given how many ppl hate the feature, but given the free nature of pve, it might as well be happen

ossuary
06-23-2013, 12:19 PM
I don't think there has been an official answer on this, but my gut feeling (for whatever the hell that's worth ;)) says the equipment will be freely tradeable even after being used. I base this on Cory's repeated statements of "when faced with a choice, we went with what is fun for the players."

Obviously every single thing in the game can't be purely what a lot of players want vs. what is good for the game, but this feels like one of those situations where CZE is going to let us play with our toys and then pass them on when we're done.

hammer
06-23-2013, 12:25 PM
So back on topic. Multi-pledgers will have an extra set of Spectral Lotus Equipment to sell. Given the power of the Lotus and its like ubiquitous use in PVE I think the associated equipment could be fairly valuable; especially if the equipment is also kickstarter exclusive and not dropped or in chests. It could very well end up being the most sought after equipment in PVE and perhaps the most undervalued component of the kickstarter tiers. Thoughts....

Shadowelf
06-23-2013, 12:32 PM
So back on topic. Multi-pledgers will have an extra set of Spectral Lotus Equipment to sell. Given the power of the Lotus and its like ubiquitous use in PVE I think the associated equipment could be fairly valuable; especially if the equipment is also kickstarter exclusive and not dropped or in chests. It could very well end up being the most sought after equipment in PVE and perhaps the most undervalued component of the kickstarter tiers. Thoughts....

Not much to add since the official info on the matter ranges from scarce to non-existant. But i bet that lotus' equipment will be pretty valuable nevertheless

Fuzii
06-23-2013, 02:04 PM
So back on topic. Multi-pledgers will have an extra set of Spectral Lotus Equipment to sell. Given the power of the Lotus and its like ubiquitous use in PVE I think the associated equipment could be fairly valuable; especially if the equipment is also kickstarter exclusive and not dropped or in chests. It could very well end up being the most sought after equipment in PVE and perhaps the most undervalued component of the kickstarter tiers. Thoughts....

since there is no reference to any of the equipment being unique to the kickstarter campaign. i assume they will be craftable. with the spectral lotus petals being pve only, those that play petals in there deck will most likely use the phantasmal grips. with gardens as a limited commodity but petals being a renewing resource there will be way more people using petals then have gardens. there wouldn't be equipment for all the people using petals, it kinda has to be craftable or a loot drop but available non the less.
if the gear from the ks exclusives is not craftable/loot then some of those pieces will be quite rare in the long run. especially with people salvaging equipment for crafting resources.

Aldazar
07-01-2013, 11:15 PM
Let me start by saying that I hate BoE or really bind on anything flags...

That having been said, I don't think it's the equivalent of being kicked in the nuts, or even a terribly unreasonable thing, especially if it's PvE, which is primarily for "fun" and "show".

I'd take it a step further and say there is a good argument for BoP flags...

My reasoning is that it is perfectly reasonable to require that if you want that ultimate piece of equipment, you earn it via questing, dungeon crawling, raiding, etc. Having that equipment or card or whatever is a mark of honor that distinguishes you as having completed the [insert impossibly difficult task/quest/whatever]. That way when you see someone with that card, you know immediately that they earned it in game rather than just poured a ton of real money into the game and bought it off someone else.

That having been said, I still have bind-on-anything flags and would hope they'd be limited in their application...

Gwaer
07-02-2013, 12:00 AM
hextcg.com
Hex, trading card game.

First descriptive word is trading, Making anything bop is ridiculous. You should be able to trade that killer piece of gear for some pvp cards/pve cards/plat, decks, whatever. And that gear should maintain value so if the buyer likes, they can trade it later for a profit, or a loss. Trading should be a huge focus in all aspects of this game. If it isn't I will be quite sad.

AstaSyneri
07-02-2013, 12:50 AM
I am absolutely with Gwaer on this. Limiting the players options is always bad.

Considering that the PvE part of the game will (likely) be populated with those players who don't have the time available to extensively play PvP, buggering this target group would seem... contraproductive.

In the same vein I don't think the insane WoW rare drops system would work here. While some of the Legendaries are very nice, you can't use them in PvP. Therefore there is no reason to make chasing them frustrating. Getting to a dungeon boss is going to be involved enough. Making a player do the same dungeon over a hundred times would be excessive and players would quickly lose interest in the game.

Shadowelf
07-02-2013, 02:52 AM
It's not that I don't agree with Gwaer , just playing devil's advocate here; wouldn't boe items, up the market value of pve items in general, since u will need more than one copy to trade assuming that u will keep the first for urself ? If pve items will be that rare, wouldn't that make ppl inclined to even spend plat for pve items ? Assuming this will happen, wouldn't this be a nice option for ppl that will likely play pve more (or exclusively), since they will be able to cash out ?

keldrin
07-02-2013, 03:09 AM
ok. IF the equipment for the exlclusive cards where also exclusive. 1) i think they would have said so. 2) Every piece would be legedary in rarety.
A bunch are listed as rare, uncommon, and legendary. This leads me to strongly believe, these are going to be lootable equipment.

keldrin
07-02-2013, 03:23 AM
It's not that I don't agree with Gwaer , just playing devil's advocate here; wouldn't boe items, up the market value of pve items in general, since u will need more than one copy to trade assuming that u will keep the first for urself ? If pve items will be that rare, wouldn't that make ppl inclined to even spend plat for pve items ? Assuming this will happen, wouldn't this be a nice option for ppl that will likely play pve more (or exclusively), since they will be able to cash out ?

BOE does make sense, as far as rarety and increased value goes. I'm with the group of thought I would prefer not to have equipment bound to my account. BUT, I would rarely trade the only copy of a specific piece of equipment that my account had. In fact, it would likey have to be for a equally rare piece of equipment that I needed. (and experience from past games has taught me, as soon as you give up the only 1 of something, it will continue to be near impossible to get. But that impossible to get item you traded for, will suddenly be accessible for some stupid reason or another).

Stok3d
07-02-2013, 06:56 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and give my imagined thoughts on how these items may spawn:

Uncommon - Normal Dungeons
Rare - Heroic Dungeons
Legendary - Raids

Obviously, if you're in a Heroic Dungeon than you can get Rare & Uncommon. If you're in a Raid then you can get Legendary, Rare, and Uncommon. I have mixed thoughts when it comes with BoP and BoE. First off, I realize that if CZE doesn't implement BoP then the value of gear will steadily decline. (I'm a collector at heart so values are important to me). If they do implement BoP then PVE could possibly just be a grind fest. This has it's ups and downs.

I'll need to weigh this for awhile before deciding which way I'd prefer. I'm leaning toward a mix tbh.

HellFro
07-02-2013, 07:31 AM
hextcg.com
Hex, trading card game.

First descriptive word is trading, Making anything bop is ridiculous. You should be able to trade that killer piece of gear for some pvp cards/pve cards/plat, decks, whatever. And that gear should maintain value so if the buyer likes, they can trade it later for a profit, or a loss. Trading should be a huge focus in all aspects of this game. If it isn't I will be quite sad.

This seems like a core argument. If any of the equipment is BoE/P then you lose a big part of the trading. I imagine that they can control the drop rates keeping legendary at extremely rare drops. If you can grind to get two, why not trade to someone who doesn't have that time and make a little profit from your effort.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 07:46 AM
Uncommon - Normal Dungeons
Rare - Heroic Dungeons
Legendary - Raids


I doubt the loot tables will be that rigid, I expect rare an legendary drops in normal dungeons, just at a much lower drop rate.

I am wholeheartedly against any BoE equipment, like Gwaer it would make me table flippingly mad.

blakegrandon
07-02-2013, 08:29 AM
I doubt the loot tables will be that rigid, I expect rare an legendary drops in normal dungeons, just at a much lower drop rate.

I am wholeheartedly against any BoE equipment, like Gwaer it would make me table flippingly mad.

Would you be alright if your "legendary" gear is now worthless because after months of farming guilds have populated the servers with those legendary items?

I don't get the whole getting table flippingly mad over a design that helps to prevent over-saturation of products.

Cash sinks and gear sinks are GOOD for a healthy community, otherwise you end up with D3 where the best items are flooded all over the AH after people acquire them, use them, and then acquire more with said "elite" gear.

hextcg.com
Hex, trading card game.


You have a selective memory or choose to ignore the fact that Hex is a MMOTCG, bringing MMORPG elements into a TCG, which DOES include things like bind on equip.

Whether they choose to implement it or not is up to them and frankly I'll play regardless(just like I'll play despite the fact that I prefer cards turning to the right instead of the left...), but at the end of the day BOE is healthy for an economy because it represents a control on the amount of product flooding the AH.

Otherwise people will use the legendaries, farm better legendaries, then sell the legendaries to others, causing an inevitable crash of the value of legendaries.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 09:13 AM
Otherwise people will use the legendaries, farm better legendaries, then sell the legendaries to others, causing an inevitable crash of the value of legendaries.

Cards and equipment in Hex are not like equipment in MMORPG's. When you get a new sword in an MMO, it replaces your previous sword. You don't keep all your old swords to swap out depending on the situation.

In Hex, things are different. Unless I only ever want to play 1 constantly evolving 60 card deck I am going to be keeping most of my old cards and equipment. I will be keeping them for when I am stuck on a raid and need a fresh approach. I'm keeping them for the added flexibility it gives me in deck building. I keep them because I don't know what interactions they will have with future cards.

I'm not going to sell a wild legendary because I got a better blood one. I'm not even going to sell the wild legendary because I got a better wild one. Any sales will be strategic, the rate of resale will be much lower than what you are used to in other MMO's.

Finally I'd like to be able to swap them with my brother, friends or guild as needed to tackle a raid. Bind on equip stops that and makes me flip tables. I agree with Gwaer, let's not take the t out of mmotcg.

facade
07-02-2013, 09:30 AM
One aspect of the whole binding argument that I think people are missing is that this is primarily a TCG. I understand binding helps maintain value in a typical MMO, but HEX is different.

In a typical MMO, level 10 armor is useless to a player once they get suitable level 15 armor. Binding to accounts helps maintain the value of outdated armor and prevents gluts on the auction house.

HEX, though, is primarily a TCG, and as such there are some inherent safeguards to help maintain value.

Equipment is tied to particular cards. If cards don't go obsolete, equipment shouldn't either. So assuming no rampant power creep, I imagine the prices of equipment will be like the prices of cards: prices will spike at new releases and whenever new synergies are discovered, will decease a little over time as supply catches up to demand, but will never completely bottom out.
In addition, due to the collecting nature of the game, the only people that will likely sell equipment are those that have purposely farmed for extras, which will keep supply lower as compared to a typical MMO where every player often would try to immediately sell their old equipment. And farming might not reduce the value too much anyways due to the amount of time it would take to complete a HEX dungeon.
Lastly, other TCGs are able to maintain the value of its cards (like through retiring sets), and I imagine HEX can do the same both for its cards and its equipment.



In summary, I don't think HEX needs to be as concerned about binding equipment to maintain value as the TCG nature of the game already helps to accomplish that. (which I see Hatts in the previous point already made my same arguments)

blakegrandon
07-02-2013, 09:38 AM
Finally I'd like to be able to swap them with my brother, friends or guild as needed to tackle a raid. Bind on equip stops that and makes me flip tables. I agree with Gwaer, let's not take the t out of mmotcg.

This is where I disagree with your premise that cards and equipment in hex aren't like equipment in mmorpgs. Letting guild members use your gear that you previously used means there is less incentive for them to get their own gear.

I guess it'll be up to CZE to determine rarity and whether or not to have binding. I would like to see a bind to account feature to prevent a glut of inventory, but that's mainly because of the bitter taste that D3 left in my mouth where the top gear could be bought with RL cash, meaning people with literally 0 skill could have the best gear in a matter of minutes.

It would be nice if the equipment keeps some kind of value and if legendary really means legendary, but then you'll have people flipping tables that they aren't getting "Legendary" gear.

I guess no matter wot CZE does people will be flipping tables, poor tables, we hardly knew you.

cavench
07-02-2013, 09:56 AM
I'm on the fence on BOE; I cannot make a judgement call on this one without knowing the drop rate of the legendary equipment. If legendary eq floods the market too quickly, then yes on BOE. If legendary eq is too chasey, then no on BOE. But if CZE strikes perfect balance on the drop rate then I would suggest no BOE, instead CZE offers a cosmatic reward for the first time user of the equipment... to provide a sense of "mint" condition of the eq.

Vorpal
07-02-2013, 10:06 AM
I hate BOE. Makes no sense in a trading card game.

Shadowelf
07-02-2013, 10:09 AM
It's not that I don't agree with Gwaer , just playing devil's advocate here; wouldn't boe items, up the market value of pve items in general, since u will need more than one copy to trade assuming that u will keep the first for urself ? If pve items will be that rare, wouldn't that make ppl inclined to even spend plat for pve items ? Assuming this will happen, wouldn't this be a nice option for ppl that will likely play pve more (or exclusively), since they will be able to cash out ?

I'd also like to add that, if pve cards will be able to be sold for plat, wouldn't that help ppl willing to convert from pve/pvp and vice versa easier? And finally wouldn't it be nice for pve fans to be able to buy boosters by farming and selling? It makes sense. Just some food for thought;


(and experience from past games has taught me, as soon as you give up the only 1 of something, it will continue to be near impossible to get. But that impossible to get item you traded for, will suddenly be accessible for some stupid reason or another).

Indeed i have experienced that too, in various games :)

blakegrandon
07-02-2013, 10:18 AM
I hate BOE. Makes no sense in a trading card game.

You do know this is more than just a trading card game, right?...

Tinuvas
07-02-2013, 10:27 AM
I know the feeling hate boe items too, but given the games' ties to wow, i have my doubts. Not that i have something official to back it up , just a tingle on my spine

I don't think BoE will happen here. In WoW, BoE served a useful purpose for their model allowing you to upgrade gear without flooding the market with your hand-me-downs. The PvE model in Hex isn't so much an inferior to superior upgrade model as much as each piece of equipment works with a different card model. Instead of throwing away your old gear, you'll want to keep it just in case you pull that card out for a deck down the road. BoE isn't necessary with this model. I suppose it's possible, but I don't see it being needed.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 10:40 AM
This is where I disagree with your premise that cards and equipment in hex aren't like equipment in mmorpgs. Letting guild members use your gear that you previously used means there is less incentive for them to get their own gear.

Well there's some movement, at least you've acknowledged that legendary cards and equipment will be collected and not replaced like they are in a traditional MMORPG.

As for your new argument, I think there is still plenty of incentive for them to get their own legendaries as:

1) I am getting the cards back after the raid
2) I won't necessarily be around for the next raid
3) They will be running dungeons when we can't get together as a group
4) They are collectors like me

Regarding people being able to buy there way to the best gear, if you are concerned about this then you are going to have a bad time with Hex. There are a few digital CCG's where you buy / acquire cards directly from the game company and you can't trade them to others, they may leave you with a better taste in your mouth. Cory explained the problem with D3 RMAH well, the main thrill of Diablo 2 was finding new items, the gameplay itself (clicking thousands upon thousands of times) was not the compelling part after you had played through once or twice. In D3 the reward feedback loop was broken as every time something dropped you knew that you could buy the equipment from the RMAH. Without that feedback loop what was left in the game was not very compelling. The fix to this is not BoE, the equipment would still be farmed and available on the RMAH in D3. The fix is to provide compelling gameplay which rewards using unique combinations and clever gameplay instead of just having the best cards. The cards and equipment need to be means to an end, not the end itself.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 10:42 AM
I'm on the fence on BOE; I cannot make a judgement call on this one without knowing the drop rate of the legendary equipment. If legendary eq floods the market too quickly, then yes on BOE. If legendary eq is too chasey, then no on BOE. But if CZE strikes perfect balance on the drop rate then I would suggest no BOE, instead CZE offers a cosmatic reward for the first time user of the equipment... to provide a sense of "mint" condition of the eq.

Cory has said a number of times that everyone is underestimating how chasey some of the PvE gear and cards will be. Just some food for thought.

Vorpal
07-02-2013, 10:59 AM
You do know this is more than just a trading card game, right?...

Are you saying Hex is NOT a tcg?



HEX combines the amazing community and roleplaying aspects of a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game (MMO) with the compelling collectible and strategic gameplay of a Trading Card Game (TCG) to create an entirely new category of a game, the MMO/TCG.

BOE makes little sense in a game built around trading.

Shadowelf
07-02-2013, 11:27 AM
BOE makes little sense in a game built around trading.

It can be argued however that tcg stands for trading card game; nobody is suggesting boe cards only equipment;)

Gwaer
07-02-2013, 11:28 AM
...
You have a selective memory or choose to ignore the fact that Hex is a MMOTCG, bringing MMORPG elements into a TCG, which DOES include things like bind on equip.

...

I chose to use the descriptor they picked when making the website for their game. HEXTCG.com
they fancy it an mmotcg. But it doesn't have grouping, except in one game mode, they're having trouble figuring out how to actually make it massively multiplayer. It's more of a mudtcg IMO.

Gwaer
07-02-2013, 11:29 AM
It can be argued however that tcg stands for trading card game; nobody is suggesting boe cards only equipment;)
The equipment are just cards that modify the base cards that fit in a slot on a sheet dressed up like a character. It's not like you have a champion running around wearing the gear you're equipping.

To take it even farther than that, assigning talent points, and equipment bonuses are both part of deck construction. In a standard TCG you could envision it as having a champion card, that has a deck of its own that is always in play, the deck consists of modifications to the champion card itself (talent points) and to the cards that you will play out of your main deck (equipment).

blakegrandon
07-02-2013, 12:11 PM
Are you saying Hex is NOT a tcg?



BOE makes little sense in a game built around trading.

Just because it's one thing doesn't invalidate the fact that they're also designing it with elements of a MMORPG kept in mind.

What they choose to implement is up to them.

BOE actually makes a lot of sense if you want to make trading worth anything.

Without BOE, trading gets flooded, equipment becomes worth significantly less because of it's abundance, and the incentive to actually go out and get the equipment or trade away hard to find equipment for other hard to find equipment disappears very quickly.

BOE is a method of reducing the available resources in an "unlimited" economy where people can farm all day and flood the auction house with equipment.

Getting mad against BOE because you like trading is like getting mad at an all you can eat buffet for there being too much food.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Vorpal
07-02-2013, 12:39 PM
It can be argued however that tcg stands for trading card game; nobody is suggesting boe cards only equipment;)

The equipment is tied to a specific card. It would be pretty silly if once a set was rotated out, you could trade the old cards from that set that still existed, but the equipment belonging to those cards was not tradeable and was no longer available.

As far as I'm concerned, the equipment is just another facet of the cards. People comparing it to the equipment in WOW are off base - the cards are this games equivalent of WOW equipment.

BOE is no more an integral part of an MMORPG experience than is perma death when you die. I've played plenty of them with no BOE.

I think BOE will discourage experimentation with new deck types, as people will be reluctant to equip gear for a new deck type they are interested in trying because it will mean they can no longer trade that equipment. This problem will be particularly acute for hard to find gear.

Turtlewing
07-02-2013, 12:43 PM
Just because it's one thing doesn't invalidate the fact that they're also designing it with elements of a MMORPG kept in mind.

What they choose to implement is up to them.

BOE actually makes a lot of sense if you want to make trading worth anything.

Without BOE, trading gets flooded, equipment becomes worth significantly less because of it's abundance, and the incentive to actually go out and get the equipment or trade away hard to find equipment for other hard to find equipment disappears very quickly.

BOE is a method of reducing the available resources in an "unlimited" economy where people can farm all day and flood the auction house with equipment.

Getting mad against BOE because you like trading is like getting mad at an all you can eat buffet for there being too much food.

Doesn't make sense to me.

BOE serves no purpose in Hex's economy.

Most MMO's use BOE to compensate for the consequences of out-leveling gear. Since you don't out-level gear in hex there's no need to apply a fix to the nonexistent problem.

Equipment will have value based on it's rarity and how popular the cards that benefit from it are. Just like the cards themselves.

Vorpal
07-02-2013, 01:14 PM
Yeah, the equipment in HEX bears no relation to equipment in WOW.

Equipment doesn't have different tiers of power in HEX, all equipment modifies a specific card. if you want to improve that card, you MUST use it's (2/3) pieces of gear, always, forever, no questions asked.

Therefore, unlike WOW, where everyone always had only the most powerful/recent set of gear and junked the rest as being worthless, HEX players will want to slowly build up their gear arsenal so that every card in the game is covered. They will never want to get rid of the gear for a card.

This is unlike WOW where a player would junk his old MC gear once he got BWL gear and, if the gear wasn't boe, just sell it to another player.

The cards are HEX's equivalent of WOW equipment.

RobHaven
07-02-2013, 01:14 PM
Instead of throwing away your old gear, you'll want to keep it just in case you pull that card out for a deck down the road.

In Hex, things are different. Unless I only ever want to play 1 constantly evolving 60 card deck I am going to be keeping most of my old cards and equipment.
By this logic, wouldn't BoE not be all that harmful? You intend on keeping one of every equipment anyway, right? So I guess it can't hurt that bad to have to keep one of some of the equipment you might not necessarily want to keep.


Finally I'd like to be able to swap them with my brother, friends or guild as needed to tackle a raid. Bind on equip stops that and makes me flip tables. I agree with Gwaer, let's not take the t out of mmotcg.
I don't want to have this as an option...so I guess it's a differing of opinions. If everyone can pull from a pool of equipment, there is almost zero incentive for members of that pool to go out and get their own copies of that equipment. As demand drops, so does value.


BOE serves no purpose in Hex's economy.
...
Equipment will have value based on it's rarity and how popular the cards that benefit from it are. Just like the cards themselves.
BoE will both increase the incentive to collect your own gear while also maintaining scarcity. This is enormously important to protecting the value of existing equipment. (You essentially say as much by referring to the equipment's rarity dictating its value.) As someone else already pointed out, I don't want to be a year into this game and find that the legendary I spent months working for is worth $0.05 because none of them were ever taken out of circulation and more were created daily. It's just like gold - with no sinks, value plummets daily. These are infinitely generating sources of wealth; having no means of removing wealth will bottom out the economy.


I think BOE will discourage experimentation with new deck types, as people will be reluctant to equip gear for a new deck type they are interested in trying because it will mean they can no longer trade that equipment. This problem will be particularly acute for hard to find gear.
This is the first sound argument I've seen against BoE. (Most of the other arguments, as far as I can tell, boil down to "I don't want it.") Not only is it sound, it's actually a damn good argument. If the value of equipment is a secluded segment of the market and has no significant impact on the overall economy, then this argument alone would win the debate (as far as I'm concerned). However if equipment value proves to be a crucial piece of the PvE-economy-puzzle, then I'd have to weight the impact of tailspinning gold value against the risk of discouraging experimentation...and given how much play value (see: Keeps) is tied tightly to gold value, I think gold would win out there.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 01:20 PM
@Rob what's the value of a legendary that can't be traded? Hint: less than 0.05

RobHaven
07-02-2013, 01:26 PM
@Rob what's the value of a legendary that can't be traded? Hint: less than 0.05

The value of a legendary not previously equipped.

Come on, Hatts - I've seen enough of your posts to know you're better than this.

Gwaer
07-02-2013, 01:35 PM
The value of a legendary not previously equipped.

Come on, Hatts - I've seen enough of your posts to know you're better than this.
I've seen enough of your posts to know that when you say you can't see how the other arguments are valid, you mean it.
That's also why it's not worth discussing it with you. Not being able to trade your equipment when you trade your deck of cards makes the cards less valuable. Having the dungeons be 4-8 hours rather than 20 minutes will limit gear all by itself. When it takes all day to farm for the chance of a legendary, that's a much more real form of scarcity. If you cannot understand that now, I don't see any way of getting it through to you in the future.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 02:15 PM
The value of a legendary not previously equipped.

Come on, Hatts - I've seen enough of your posts to know you're better than this.

Although it was worded a bit cheekily, there is a valid point there. With BoE a legendary has a value of nothing or lots. Without BoE the legendary has a value between nothing and lots, and we can argue about where that ends up based on drop rates and desirability of the equipment. I think your 5 cent example is missing the mark by a lot. See Cory's comments about chasiness, I think demand will be higher than supply.

Without BoE I can get value from using it and trading it, which is a better play experience. As well, equipment may not drop forever, which will limit the total supply. Having BoE when there is a finite supply will eventually remove the legendary from the market.

Turtlewing
07-02-2013, 02:31 PM
BoE will both increase the incentive to collect your own gear while also maintaining scarcity. This is enormously important to protecting the value of existing equipment. (You essentially say as much by referring to the equipment's rarity dictating its value.) As someone else already pointed out, I don't want to be a year into this game and find that the legendary I spent months working for is worth $0.05 because none of them were ever taken out of circulation and more were created daily. It's just like gold - with no sinks, value plummets daily. These are infinitely generating sources of wealth; having no means of removing wealth will bottom out the economy.


Except that BOE doesn't work that way.

It increase the scarcity on the exchange, not scarcity in general.

The solution to the problem you're talking about is to rotate out dungeons and raids closing off the source of the equipment and cards they drop.

What BOE does is force players to destroy obsolete equipment because they can't sell it. That is completely pointless if equipment doesn't become obsolete.

In most MMOs you might find an "inferior hat +1 to stuff" and then two levels later find "mediocre hat +5 to stuff". Now you have no reason to keep the inferior hat as it's completely obsoleted by the mediocre hat. To prevent the market from flooding with inferior hats the inferior hat can be made BOE.

In hex you instead get a "magpie's hat; draw a card when magpie attacks", and later find a "fiery hat; deal 2 damage to a troop when you play 'set fire to us all' ". The fiery hat does not in any way diminish the usefulness of the magpie's hat. So you have no incentive not to keep both. In this case all BOE does is discourage trying out new gear to see if you like it.

RobHaven
07-02-2013, 02:36 PM
I've seen enough of your posts to know that when you say you can't see how the other arguments are valid, you mean it.
Aside from any ex-girlfriends, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a stubborn asshole. That being said, seeing why you have an opinion and agreeing with your opinion are two different things. I absolutely understand where you [guys] are coming from, I just don't agree that it's the best course for the game as a whole. As with every thread I participate in, I will readily concede when a convincing argument is made or evidence is shown. Look at post #54 for verification.


I think your 5 cent example is missing the mark by a lot. See Cory's comments about chasiness, I think demand will be higher than supply.

Without BoE I can get value from using it and trading it, which is a better play experience. As well, equipment may not drop forever, which will limit the total supply. Having BoE when there is a finite supply will eventually remove the legendary from the market.
5 cents is an arbitrary number, but I understand what you're saying. My fear is that given enough time and enough incentive, even the most hard-to-acquire equipment will be plentiful on the market. Although I guess my argument defeats itself as the motivation to acquiring said equipment (in this context) is the coin it can bring in, but farmed to such an extent would drop value...thus reducing/removing motivation to farm it. Eh... Now I'm a little confused.

To your second point: Taken out of the context of "monetary" value, there is more to be gained from having equipment you can share. I understand that's the point that you were making earlier, but my chief concern was/is about value as it pertains to the market. However I can't find an argument to counter your proposal of an extinction. Theoretically yes - rotating instances and binding gear can/will lead to the extinction of unbound equipment specific to the rotated-out dungeon/raid. I guess at the end of the day, I'm willing to take that risk (especially knowing that those instances could be rotated back in).

Dinotropia
07-02-2013, 03:00 PM
BoE is a mechanic that is introduced to artificially create rarity / chasiness. It is necessary when you have either infrequent updates or a playerbase so huge it breaks RNG. However, a MMO TCG like Hex won't need something similar imo because it has it already built in -- sets/blocks. Cory mentioned in one of the streams that they are launching with over 1500 pieces of equipment (reveals and the initial card numbers lead me to believe that we are looking at about 2 pieces of equipment per card on average). Every set introduced is likely to have something similar in regard to equipment. If this is the case, we are talking hunting down twice as many equipables as there are cards in each new set.

Not to mention, rarity itself won't necessarially translate into power. Because it is a TCG, equipment power is always going to be a direct function of your deck's strat. You may very well want common equipment for some decks over legendary stuff.

TLDR; Chase will always be a factor in Hex without the need for gimicks like BoE.

Vorpal
07-02-2013, 03:03 PM
It's a trading card game.

The cards are tradeable.

The equipment simply lets you modify cards in a certain way.

I want to be able to trade the equipment for the cards, along with the cards when I trade them.

If the equipment is BOE, I cannot try out new decks, because then I can't trade the equipment for my cards along with my cards. When I trade the cards, I'm left with a pile of useless equipment.

Anything that stifles diversity and creativity in deck building is bad and should be shunned. I don't want people to be so scared of getting their equipment bound that they aren't willing to experiment with deck building and just print out net lists and follow cookie cutter builds.

Hatts
07-02-2013, 03:04 PM
To your second point: Taken out of the context of "monetary" value, there is more to be gained from having equipment you can share. I understand that's the point that you were making earlier, but my chief concern was/is about value as it pertains to the market.

I think this is the fundamental difference we'll have to disagree on, we are concerned with different things. For me I am much more interested in what's the most fun with the least artificial barriers for players. What's best for players isn't always what's best for the market.

I'm more concerned about the PvP market, not knowing if sets are going out of print makes it difficult to decide how to manage your collection. There are so many problems a f2p market can have that I'm turning a blind eye and going with what gives the best experience.

RobHaven
07-02-2013, 03:15 PM
Anything that stifles diversity and creativity in deck building is bad and should be shunned.
Point was already made and conceded to. Not sure why you're reposting it, except maybe that I haven't given up completely yet? Your point is still valid, and I still agree with what you're saying.


For me I am much more interested in what's the most fun with the least artificial barriers for players.
...
There are so many problems a f2p market can have that I'm turning a blind eye and going with what gives the best experience.
This is a completely fair stance to take, and I wholeheartedly endorse the "experience first" mentality more often than I argue against it. At this point there have been ample arguments made in favor of no binding effects, and I seem to be alone in the dark calling for binds - obviously it's out of our hands, but if this thread is any indication then it would appear binding gear will be a non-issue. I'm content to let the thread die and however it comes out in-game will be fine by me.

blakegrandon
07-02-2013, 03:37 PM
I seem to be alone in the dark calling for binds - obviously it's out of our hands, but if this thread is any indication then it would appear binding gear will be a non-issue. I'm content to let the thread die and however it comes out in-game will be fine by me.


I'm not anti-binds, mainly because I understand the value of cash sinks to protect an economy that can become quite volatile.

I think its ironic that people that are in favor of "trading" are so anti-BOE, the lack of BOE or any kind of card deteriorating will destroy any value in trading.

It'll be up to Hex to decide how to implement the economy, I don't think this is very far from MMORPGS in terms of the need for a bind, if anything D3 shows us what happens when you can freely trade the gear over and over, it becomes highly saturated.

People are saying that the dungeons will be phased out so in theory there will be limited amounts of gear out there, but even if it's eventually phased out if there is no "limit" to the amount dropped people will stockpile them or flood the market with the gear extremely fast, and far before the dungeons are phased out.

Economics, it's not as simple as saying tables will be flipped if they don't get their way. Binds and cash sinks exist for a reason and make good game economic sense.

Gwaer
07-02-2013, 04:24 PM
To be honest, there has been lots of talk about other ways to handle this. Dungeons rotating out of play, the crafting system that lets you break down cards and possible equipment, extremely long dungeons that take way more than a conventional game that uses boe... To suggest that this is just people angry and not offering options is pretty ridiculous. On multiple occasions Cory has stated that equipment is extremely chasey. If that's because of rarity of items, and length of dungeon runs I haven't seen a single valid reason to even worry that BOE/P will be an issue. I'm 98% certain that they're not even considering binding equipment. That's the feel I've gotten from what they've been saying anyway. Time will tell.