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Vomitlord
06-24-2013, 07:23 AM
I know its early to say this but my feeling is that this game would be broken if they made any straight up search your deck tutors. I'm aware of ascetic aspirant but that involves a bit of hoop jumping.

Surely with cards like replicators gambit and escalation decks this cannot happen, can it?

Rapkannibale
06-24-2013, 07:32 AM
I think it could happen, however they will need to be very careful with them. They are definitely hard cards to design properly and they can be abused easily, which is why they are not really making tutor effects in Magic anymore (at least not that I have seen recently). Of course Hex has PvE which gives much more room for fun things like tutors. :)

ossuary
06-24-2013, 07:34 AM
It could, and at some point it probably will. I doubt you'll see one anywhere close to as cheap and ubiquitous as Demonic Tutor, though. If they do have a tutor, it will mostly like be for way more mana, or for only a specific type of card, or with some other downside / penalty to it (maybe choose and discard another card, so you have to give up card advantage to use it?).

Vorpal
06-24-2013, 07:41 AM
If they do it will probably be via equipment or pve only cards and thus not break pvp.

jgsugden
06-24-2013, 07:44 AM
They designed this game so that they can capitalize on the mistakes that MtG made and avoid them. I would be surprised to see them directly repeat errors made in MtG. However, although the mechanics and look may be familiar, the way the game plays seems quite different. After mocking up a few games, I did see some real differences, especially in the way the game escalates.

Shadowelf
06-24-2013, 07:47 AM
So far, so good i'd say ; haven't seen anything too powerful in a sense to worry me for the well being of the game. There are some silly pve cards, but the pvp side of the game looks safe and sound to me

maniza
06-24-2013, 07:55 AM
They wont make tutors for cheap if that is what you mean. They seem to know the power of the effects given to cards. They seem to know how much resources to ask for each efect.

Icepick
06-24-2013, 07:58 AM
I suspect that some Tutor cards will appear, but they will have very costly effects. Something like sacrificing a troop, or permanently losing 1 or more threshold or resources. The Aspirant of a good example of the high cost, but it's also slightly different in that it's basically a permanent Tutor effect for as long as the card lives, so it's tough to make judgements based off that alone.

Rayous
06-24-2013, 08:01 AM
Blood harbinger allows you to replicate one if you have 2 and then if the other dies you can tutor that specific one out. One of the times that the opponent will probably pay the 5 life loss.

Xintia
06-24-2013, 08:46 AM
I think the question to ask is not, "Will there be 'tutor' effects?" The better question is, "What will be the cost associated with those effects?" Now granted I haven't played Magic since the old Mirrodin block, so I'm not sure what they've done since. But the problem with Magic's search effects in general was they were too cheap with little downside. Even the Mirage era tutors that put the searched card on top of your deck were very powerful without generating card advantage. Being able to search for a specific card is a very powerful mechanic and needs to be balanced properly. But to simply set aside the concept as too difficult to balance does the game itself a disservice, I think. Let's see what CZE can come up with to make the mechanic available, but not dominating.

SomeoneRandom
06-24-2013, 09:07 AM
Honestly after the fiasco of the cycle of Mirage tutors the only tutor after that to be too strong was Stoneforge Mystic. I think Wizards got it right after mirage. Most tutors were 4 or more and could have a drawback for a benefit (mystical teachings was instant with a flashback for 7 but only got instant cards or cards with flash). The standard that magic ended up with was 2BB for any card directly in hand as a sorcery which seems rather fair.

Shadowelf
06-24-2013, 09:13 AM
As long as they will keep their tutors at 3-4cc, basic actions, and the searched card to go at the top of the library, everything will be fine.

ChumpyMcChump
06-24-2013, 09:17 AM
I'll bet that any tutors won't search for cards with Escalate; entirely too much brokenness easily available at that point.

Punk
06-24-2013, 09:33 AM
I'll bet that any tutors won't search for cards with Escalate; entirely too much brokenness easily available at that point.

I suspect they will make a tutor-type ability at some point, but it will be expensive to cast and/or have some other drawback.

ChumpyMcChump
06-24-2013, 09:34 AM
If it's able to hit Escalate cards, I won't be surprised when the drawback is reverting the Escalation values...

Corpselocker
06-24-2013, 11:33 AM
I can live without tutor cards, but I do like to break decks with them :)

Aradon
06-24-2013, 11:51 AM
There are some already, especially if you count equipment. There's Soothing Breeze, which costs 2, gains 7 life, and if it's equipped, you search for a 1-mana coyotle and put it into play. There's the Blood Harbinger, which can be equipped to search for any orc and put it into your hand. I don't think they're going to completely avoid tutors in PvE.

Fireblast
06-24-2013, 12:13 PM
I'm glad they're designing and developping the game while you guys aren't.
4 CC tutors because of escalation cards, what a joke.

~

Hibbert
06-24-2013, 12:28 PM
I bet the majority of tutoring will be found in the PvE side. I can't imagine any PvP tutors without some really significant drawbacks. Something like Demonic Consultation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2445). That card has a chance of decking you, or at least removing some other important cards if you use it at the wrong time. I'd expect something like that rather than Demonic Tutor or any of the Mirage block tutor cycle.

facade
06-24-2013, 12:52 PM
Mostly, the most degenerate combos with tutors in HEX has to do with grafting abilities onto the cards in your library (like replicator's gambit).

I suppose a fair way of making a tutor might be having the tutor revert the card before putting it into your hand.

jgsugden
06-24-2013, 01:59 PM
Hex is not MtG, and that is why Crypt gave us an automatic tutor in every deck.

Imagine the following card in MtG:

Super Duper Tutor
0 cost
If this card is in your deck, move it to the top of your deck before you draw your first card.
Sorcery.
Draw a card.
Pick a card from your deck and place it face up on the board. It is not in your hand and you may not play it by paying the mana cost. If you have the resources available to pay for that card, you may play it at no cost. If you gain enough resources to be able to play the card multiple times, you can play it once for each time you could pay for it (without actually paying anything).

Broken, right? Massively broken?

That is effectively your Champion ability in Hex. You get to pick the ability like a tutor picks a card. It is always available to you. You don't use mana equivalents to pay for it. You can't be forced to discard it (although I'm sure there will be equivalents). You get to use it multiple times (assuming you develop enough charges to do so).

Obviously, it is not a perfect match. Traditional tutors are superior in some key ways. Tutors typically are used to go after power cards, and typically go after the half of a combo that you have not drawn. You deplete your deck by one when you use a tutor. However, Champions also have a leg up in some key ways. They do not require you to pay the cost of a tutor. Champions don't need to be drawn to be used.

Hex has similar mechanics to MtG. It has similar rules. However, the similarity in structure does not mean there is a similarity in how the game plays, or a similarity in balance. Look at the costs of cards and look for similar abilities in MtG. They're cheaper in Hex (generally). Further, Hex is better at buffing troops (permanently and in ways that are harder to negate). Additionally, Hex also gives you charges for your Champion in addition to these cheaper cards. They rebalanced the game to make it escalate a lot faster - and that allows for more powerful effects to be present in the game - such as those escalation cards where an opponent might be forced to mill 16 or 32 cards from their deck - or you might inflict 16 or 32 damage to a champion.

Hex is not Magic.

Shadowelf
06-24-2013, 02:26 PM
There are some already, especially if you count equipment. There's Soothing Breeze, which costs 2, gains 7 life, and if it's equipped, you search for a 1-mana coyotle and put it into play. There's the Blood Harbinger, which can be equipped to search for any orc and put it into your hand. I don't think they're going to completely avoid tutors in PvE.

Yeah pvp is what most ppl worry about; pve has lotus; u can't go much broken past that :P

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 02:39 PM
You can't use your charge power multiple times in the same round even if you can pay for it. Just fyi.

Kilo24
06-24-2013, 02:39 PM
Hex is not MtG, and that is why Crypt gave us an automatic tutor in every deck.

Imagine the following card in MtG:

Super Duper Tutor
...
That is effectively your Champion ability in Hex.
Um.... no.

First of all, champion powers are nowhere near as powerful as normal cards. You can Murder any troop for the same "cost" that a champion power would give a -1 to Attack for.

Second of all, you choose champion powers before the game, not during. Tutors offer flexibility when you use them. Champion powers have no such flexibility.

Those are the two major differences. There are plenty more that you didn't mention (such as tutors thinning a deck) but those two alone make your comparison terrible. Champion powers in MTG would be closer to a 0 cost enchantment cantrip that gained counters from playing lands that you could spend counters from to use... but that would still be a really bad approximation. Until MTG releases a tutor that only works with Mindless Nulls I really can't agree with your argument.

ossuary
06-24-2013, 03:25 PM
Also, FWIW, it's been specifically stated that champion abilities can only be used once per turn, even if you have enough charges for more uses.

HyenaNipples
06-24-2013, 03:47 PM
Judging by how expensive simple draw mechanics are- you won't see any cheap tutor cards.

SomeoneRandom
06-24-2013, 06:51 PM
Judging by how expensive simple draw mechanics are- you won't see any cheap tutor cards.

Most of their draw spells are perfectly on curve. Outside of pact of pain, but that effect needs to be costly otherwise it would be insane. 3 mana for two cards or 4 mana and sacrifice something for 3 cards both seem on curve.