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View Full Version : Yeah this kinda NEEDS to happen ...



Jarric
06-24-2013, 05:05 PM
The more I look at these cards that are already spoiled the more I really feel that they need to make the Rule:

"No cards cost can be reduced below 1"

They mentioned they were gonna keep their eye on things but there are just too many options already for infinite turn decks. Especially when it comes to pve. You can say they want "fun" decks for pve and that's great but all you will have to do is raid with a guy with an infinite turn deck once and wait 20 minutes for his turn to get done once to say "this sucks".

Instead of just keeping an eye on it make it a universal rule. I think this would still keep the strats viable without making them abusable.

Shadowelf
06-24-2013, 05:10 PM
Well ur most probably right; pve looks like bonkers atm But then that's what the purpose of alpha will be; test stuff and give feedback. Nothing will be finalized till launch, so i wouldn't worry that much

Grumph
06-24-2013, 05:18 PM
Making stuff cost at least one will not stop infinite turn decks

RElapse
06-24-2013, 06:06 PM
Making stuff cost at least one will not stop infinite turn decks

this is true and considering the fact that we don't have all the cards spoiled makes me think there is a counter play for " infinite turns". I think that this is something that needs to be massively play tested (alpha/beta) to see if its viable.

i think its important to note that an infinite turn deck that only works 1% of the time is not a working deck, what i mean is if you have a play set of say

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/KPZQS5I.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=34)

in order to play

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/jcmVCuc.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=3)

the chances of this happening are next to 0, and therefore not a infinite turn, also in some cards they have specified a min cost.


http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/CbcC4JO.jpg

jarric can you give an example of something you've come up with to this end.

Jarric
06-24-2013, 06:18 PM
There have been a few explained already like the Wrenlock/Dream deck or the one I said about the Ebonrock/Raptor deck. There is LOTS of card draw in the game so with enough Cost reduction then you end up with LOTS of potential Loops. Again I know we only know a % of the cards but unless the other % of the cards do the opposite of the ones we have seen I can see some potential trouble on the horizon.

ZeroCool
06-24-2013, 06:19 PM
Until more cards are announced, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Also, your opponent can play instant attacks anyways to keep things interesting.

jgsugden
06-24-2013, 06:46 PM
Hex is not MtG. They have built the game so that if you build up to it correctly, you can have a combo that wins the game for you, even if you were way behind. Just look at the escalation cards. It seems clear to me that the INTENT is to have overwhelmingly powerful combos in the game in ways that MtG does not generally allow.

As such, I see no problem with allowing a combo that allows for a repetitive smackdown and kill - as long as it is sufficiently difficult to assemble and is not an overwhelmingly dominant deck design. If you play a ten card series that creates an infinite loop - go for it.

funktion
06-24-2013, 06:48 PM
Making "absolute" rules that something will never be possible is a poor way to design a game that's supposed to break many boundaries.

You might not enjoy playing against decks like that, but those are some of my favorite decks to play. Maybe the two of us can instead agree not to play those decks against eachother? Instead of completely ruining someone else's fun. We can all get what we want : )

Nicalapegus
06-24-2013, 07:22 PM
The more I look at these cards that are already spoiled the more I really feel that they need to make the Rule:

"No cards cost can be reduced below 1"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc

Go to 12:30. Cory states nothing will cost 0.

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 07:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VUn3gOclMc

Go to 12:30. Cory states nothing will cost less than 0.

They backpedal from that in later streams though.

Nicalapegus
06-24-2013, 07:25 PM
Source? Also this is pretty sound, he explicitly states that nothing will cost 0.

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 07:36 PM
The last twitch stream I believe? Basically the lead card designer said they will keep a close watch on things going to 0. Minimum of 1 will be default, but cards will break that as they see fit.

Nicalapegus
06-24-2013, 07:47 PM
Well Cory flat out says that nothing will cost 0. And you failed to provide a source. So I'm gonna go with that :)

BlindMan
06-24-2013, 07:48 PM
http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412717902

At 52:47 they talk about costs being reduced to 0. If you watch the game they play right before it, they use Journeyman Technician (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=34) to free cast some artifacts.

Nicalapegus
06-24-2013, 07:54 PM
Thanks for using a source. This confirms that the only cards that can be reduced to 0 are those that aren't combo cards, so the OP's fears can be put to rest. It seems that nothing will be reduced to 0, and/or the things that can be reduced to 0 aren't combo cards.

funktion
06-24-2013, 08:15 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. Creating false barriers to design is a bad way to go about things. Balance them properly and everything is fine. Granted huge combos don't require cards to cost 0... and now that I think of it there are very few broken ones in MTG that involve zero costed cards. With that said there have been a couple cards where they said the card might have been a "mistake" to print, and somehow had an OP interaction much like what you're saying.

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 08:17 PM
Thanks for using a source. This confirms that the only cards that can be reduced to 0 are those that aren't combo cards, so the OP's fears can be put to rest. It seems that nothing will be reduced to 0, and/or the things that can be reduced to 0 aren't combo cards.
This is not at all what they said.

Malicus
06-24-2013, 08:21 PM
This thread reminds me of the LRR video where the guy starts an infinite combo and decks himself out ;)

MatWith1T
06-24-2013, 09:27 PM
Infinite combos are fun the first time you devise them in a deckbuilder, and the first time it works in practice. Beyond that, the deck requires no thought or creativity, it is just a game of solitaire until the win conditions are met. The number of people who have enjoyed playing against an infinite loop deck can be counted on zero hands.

Besides, infinite loops are fun for the same reason wall-climbing into off limits parts of WoW is fun... You are using the games own rules to find a way to play the game in a totally different way. Zero cost cards are a totally generic, unoriginal way of doing that. Use some creativity :)

Jarric
06-25-2013, 02:33 AM
Zero cost cards are a totally generic, unoriginal way of doing that. Use some creativity :)

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/rJDtH9x.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=8) With Gloves as equipment.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/ymcHoC4.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=89) No equipment needed

2 cards 1 equip ... game over. Sac any other orc do 2 dmg. Zol effect triggers, sac that raider, Zol effect triggers, Sac that raider ...

doesn't use the 0 cost issue. I am merely worried that 0 cost cards exponentially make infinite loops even more prevalent.

Malicus
06-25-2013, 02:46 AM
http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/rJDtH9x.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=8) With Gloves as equipment.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/ymcHoC4.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=89) No equipment needed

2 cards 1 equip ... game over. Sac any other orc do 2 dmg. Zol effect triggers, sac that raider, Zol effect triggers, Sac that raider ...

doesn't use the 0 cost issue. I am merely worried that 0 cost cards exponentially make infinite loops even more prevalent.

the equip says discard not sac so this doesn't actually repeat. Claw can chain a few attacks with both equips so they do work well together but its not game over.

now if you have a card that allows you to draw an extra card when you draw a card that would combo quite well with claw since you would be drawing 2 and discarding 1 so only need 1 of the 2 to be a creature. if you had say 3 creatures in your hand to start you would have reasonable odds of being able to continue for high damage provided your deck was mostly creatures.

Sazabi
06-25-2013, 02:52 AM
http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/cards/medium/rJDtH9x.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=8) With Gloves as equipment.

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/ymcHoC4.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=89) No equipment needed

2 cards 1 equip ... game over. Sac any other orc do 2 dmg. Zol effect triggers, sac that raider, Zol effect triggers, Sac that raider ...

doesn't use the 0 cost issue. I am merely worried that 0 cost cards exponentially make infinite loops even more prevalent.

Just to be sure to have understand that combo....
The gloves you're talking let you deal 2 damage when discard an Orc and not when sacrifice an Orc.

Is the same discard and sacrifice in Hex??

Bloody Cestus, The

Gloves

Discard an Orc: Deal 2 damage to target champion.

EDIT:
Malicus (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/member.php?u=18961) give me the answer, thx !!!!

funktion
06-25-2013, 03:09 AM
Infinite combos are fun the first time you devise them in a deckbuilder, and the first time it works in practice. Beyond that, the deck requires no thought or creativity, it is just a game of solitaire until the win conditions are met. The number of people who have enjoyed playing against an infinite loop deck can be counted on zero hands.

While "infinite loop" (people are using that term incorrectly) is not what I'm talking about, I do genuinely enjoy playing with and against combo decks. So on that note I'd say please don't try and speak for everyone. I find legacy elves / teps / ad nauseum tendrils to be genuinely interesting decks (speaking from mtg terms).

Shadowelf
06-25-2013, 03:22 AM
No problem with combo decks if they also give us the tools to beat them; counters, discard etc....

Grumph
06-25-2013, 07:05 AM
I'm trying to work out a combo with these, just need more cards spoiled

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/dEPOq23.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=47)

and

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/3XhcRh1.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=5)

with

http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/img/dl_cards/W0T77Jj.jpg (http://hex.potion-of-wit.com/card.php?c=111)

you could be putting 7 bugs into play every turn,

or with a one time tutor and an unsummon you could easily get 6 or 7 turns in a row + end up with 13 replicating and 3 normal bugs in your deck

Gwaer
06-25-2013, 08:21 AM
Transcended is a win condition that you can use to combo whatever you like =P

If you got him out you should be winning.

Kami
06-25-2013, 08:24 AM
The problem with The Trascended is that it is a transformative card. You would have to play the first stage, advance to the second stage, before it becomes The Trascended. That's waaay too slow for a Time Bugs combo.

http://hextcg.com/transformation-nation/

Fireblast
06-25-2013, 08:50 AM
If there are no combo / OTK decks this game will fail.
Learn to build, discard, counterspell and play the matchups instead of complaining.

I only play "fair" decks in legacy and I'm glad there are combo decks...

If someone if able to get the right cards and play them in the right order why shouldn't he be able to win? Playing Battle Hoppers and Evolve is more diserving of winning?

(If you answer Yes to the above question then please read : http://greedygoblin.blogspot.fr/p/play-to-win-vs-play-for-fun.html and understand that competitive PvP means play to win aspects)

~

Grumph
06-25-2013, 08:57 AM
yea, that's why I'm waiting for more cards to be spoiled. A one use tutor and an unsummon type card would be ideal for a pvp match. I'm thinking the trandsended for pve raids, especially the one were the AI only takes one damage per source, it wouldn't take too long to get an army of bugs going

Vorpal
06-25-2013, 09:02 AM
It sounds like they are aware of the principle (0 cost cards are dangerous) and have decided to break it only in very limited/specific circumstances.

which sounds perfect to me.

Nicalapegus
06-30-2013, 07:49 PM
Gwaer, that's exactly what they said. Maybe you should go listen to it?

Nicalapegus
06-30-2013, 07:55 PM
"Some of them are reducing them to a minimum of 1 to prevent combos from being released" So this pretty much confirms that all cards that combo aren't going to be able to be reduced to 0 cost.

Not to mention, every combo deck has a weakness. Any amount of disruption can end the combo. Combo decks shouldn't be your focus IMO. MTG has demonstrated that if you make creatures overpowered and control cards weak... well you know the rest. I hope there is a balanced amount of decks for each style, not the melee which is MTG at the moment.