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Yoss
06-24-2013, 08:28 PM
The first portion of this post is written as an open letter to CZE.

There are a number of dicussions happening in the forums regarding important system/design elements relating to Hex. Below is a list of the discussions with links to the ongoing threads, in what I consider to be order of importance. Below the links I have listed what I feel are the best representation of the main points being discussed and the recommendations I feel CZE should consider.

Though you are certainly under no obligation to do so, we would much appreciate your responses to these, either accepting them or providing detailed reasoning for rejection.

Enabling Competitive PVE (link)
Key points:
The Raid Leader bonuses are stipulated to only work in "non-tournament PVE", without giving definition to the "non-tournament PVE" term. No official Tournament PVE structures have been announced.
Some members of the community would like to have a feature to track world firsts for PVE content, including raids. On July 13, this was confirmed as a feature during the Q&A (link). (http://www.twitch.tv/knightsoftheroundshow/b/430004874)
In order to keep the competition fair, several proposals have been made, including this one (link).
Meldryn wrote a great article on competitive WF in PVE (link).
In a separate thread there is also a compilation of Tournament PVE ideas (link), which some believe will create the competitive PVE experience that World First might not provide.

Tradeability and Exclusives (link)
Key points:
There are multiple factors to consider in deciding which objects in the game should and should not be tradeable and the best approach for handling promotional exclusive items. A detailed analysis of the stakeholders and their desires is matched with a proposed solution to meet those desires. The proposed solution currently asks for three things, listed in order of importance.
Implement the suggestions above ("Enabling Competitive PVE").
Exclusive game-altering objects (cards, mercs) should be plentiful during the promotional period to ensure adequate supply. Case study: we want to avoid the Hex equivalent of a Mana Crypt.
Make Exclusive Mercenaries tradeable on the AH. (Do not confuse these with Story Mercenaries that should be character-bound due to choices that character has made in the PVE plot.)

Authenticators (link)
Key points:
This item in particular is under heavy debate, so the opinions are morphing quickly.
Account authentication should be required for all accounts at some level. Free-to-play should have a low barrier to entry, with increased security as stakes increase.
Account authentication sould have options to streamline based on user situation and preference, and on the level of transactions desired (Gold vs Plat vs $US). Examples: only for the first time on a given device versus every log-in; email versus text message versus physical dongle versus phone call.

$US to Platinum Exchange Rate (link)
Key points:
Set a rate of at least 1000 Plat per 1 dollar to ensure sufficient currency resolution for small transactions.
Alternately, set 1 Plat per 1 dollar but allow fractional transactions down to at least 0.001 resolution.

Auction House: Use a Bid/Ask System (link)
Key points:
Using a system like EVE Online or Guild Wars 2 will be better than the WoW system.
The system can be designed to handle uniqueness (double-back) and commoditization simultaneously.

Informational Tooltip (link)
Key points:
Provide mouse-over data on how many of a given object you own and its AH stats. A smaller version of this was discussed here (link). The default setting for the tooltip should be OFF.
Alternately, but less desirable to some, implement an information-only API system and let 3rd parties develop tooltips for you. If you implement the API system, make sure it does not enable cheats like card counting during matches. API Thread (link)
This comes from the larger UI Requests Thread (link).
A duplicate discussion has appeared here (link).

Real Money Transactions (link)
Key points:
Cory expressed this as a feature he wanted. We agree!
The most obvious (but not necessarily best) way to do this is just to set a Platinum to $US exchange rate and let the normal AH handle the rest.
Most people seem to believe that there are significant legal and logistical hurdles to overcome for this feature to be implemented.

Proposed Account Transfer Process (link)
Key points:
CZE should implement an official means for account transfer. This will prevent various abuses as discussed in the linked thread. Much of this discussion came from OP_Kyle's post (link).

Communication Systems & Chat Features (link)
Key points:
Various chat modes are discussed.
Note that the "auction chat" idea has been rescinded, but the OP has not been updated yet.

Deck Names & Notes (link)
Key points:
As decks sit in your collection it would be great to have notes about what each deck is for, sideboard ideas, and so on.

Fishing and Other Mini-Games (link)
Key points:
Many MMO games have mini-games on which to spend one's idle time. Some players enjoy this option, others do not.
Several reasons are presented in favor, mostly as filler for between matches or raids or while waiting for a friend to log in.
The key reason for opposition seems to be the tendency of such mini-games to offer rewards that are too good. This leads to a feeling that the mini-game is "mandatory" even when a player does not wish to play the mini-game. It is my impression that most of those opposed to the mini-games would become neutral if the mini-games: (1) did not provide any rewards that were not obtainable elsewhere and (2) were less efficient than the normal means of seeking those rewards.

Symbology to Help Color Blindness (link)
Key points:
The threshold symbols for each shard need to be unique so that color blind people can still play.
More generally, keep color blindness and other handicaps in mind during interface design.

Brick & Mortar Ideas (link)
Key points:
Sell gift cards for in-game Platinum.
Many other ideas debating back and forth.


To the community:
This thread is not meant for discussion of the individual items beyond whether they should be on the list or not, and even then, I'd prefer if you just note here that you've made a post in the other thread so that the detailed discussions can happen there rather than here. Use the appropriate thread for all detailed discussions. Please let me know if I've missed any of our key items, improperly summarized something, or otherwise made a mistake. If it's something missing, please provide the link and summary.

Obviously since I'm the one posting this it will be at least slightly skewed towards my viewpoint, but I have done and will do my best to post the most compelling view of a given topic. If you feel strongly that a counter-argument should be listed due to an item not having consensus (like the minority voice in a supreme court ruling), we can discuss that in the associated thread.

I will keep this updated as best I can from now until Beta testing, at minimum.

(In order to update the title, I had to remake this thread. The original thread can be found here (link).)

Gwaer
06-24-2013, 08:35 PM
Yay!

wildcard
06-24-2013, 08:46 PM
Unfortunately this isn't nearly controversial enough, so it's going to slide off into obscurity while the prior thread gets necroed for the next four years. ;)

I'd ask for a sticky, but the top is already super cluttered. There are at least 3 stickies in this forum that could be collapsed into one "resources link roll" post, if anyone's feeling ambitious. Not sure mods are paying enough attention these days to do it, but if you title the post "Producer for sale!" they'll stop in.

Yoss
06-24-2013, 08:52 PM
Heh. Yeah, I've already talked to Patrigan about moving all the link threads over to the wiki and/or consolidating into a single thread. That would make room for new stickies.

OutlandishMatt
06-24-2013, 08:57 PM
List the VIP/abuse topic please? I think it's too much of a hot topic for CZE to not discuss and look over the forum.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25598

RobHaven
06-24-2013, 09:11 PM
Too bad the title of your thread can't be changed, it is really misleading. I came in here wondering how we voted Yoss in as our spokesperson.

As much as I didn't care for the way the original post was written, I think this particular attitude isn't really appropriate. Often times the best leaders aren't those who ask to be put in place, but those who rise up out of need for leadership in an otherwise leaderless community. Maybe we didn't vote Yoss in, and maybe I think (s)he needs to change his/her opinions to be more like my opinions...but I don't mind that the community was in need of organization and (s)he tried to provide it. It's better than most of us; I don't know about you guys, but I spend an awful lot of time moaning and groaning about the repetitive and ridiculous threads that pop up, but I never did anything about it. Someone did. I applaud that effort.

Zzasikar
06-24-2013, 09:49 PM
Regardless of the listed suggestions on the topics, I would love to hear what CZE's plans for each of them. Thanks for making this topic, Yoss.

Yoss
06-24-2013, 10:00 PM
List the VIP/abuse topic please? I think it's too much of a hot topic for CZE to not discuss and look over the forum.

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25598
I haven't been in that thread much, but I agree it's been "hot". Could someone please write up a couple bullet points to summarize for me before I add it to the OP?

OutlandishMatt
06-24-2013, 10:31 PM
VIP Program Abuse (link) (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25598)
Key points:

"Limit 1 per credit card, per account". We need more Explanation.
A friend gifts you his booster every week, abuse?
What, if any, are the limitations of having a VIP subscription?

Krenos
06-24-2013, 10:41 PM
Bump for a good thread

funktion
06-24-2013, 11:13 PM
I gotta admit, based on the old title, this thread definitely isn't what I thought it would be...

On that note, even if I don't completely agree with everything, this thread gets my full support too! Feels like a good way to keep things civilized and moving in the right direction.

Tinuvas
06-25-2013, 02:17 AM
Often times the best leaders aren't those who ask to be put in place, but those who rise up out of need for leadership in an otherwise leaderless community. Maybe we didn't vote Yoss in, and maybe I think (s)he needs to change his/her opinions to be more like my opinions...but I don't mind that the community was in need of organization and (s)he tried to provide it. It's better than most of us; I don't know about you guys, but I spend an awful lot of time moaning and groaning about the repetitive and ridiculous threads that pop up, but I never did anything about it. Someone did. I applaud that effort.

The concern was not the effort put into consolidating the hot topic list, but the implication of authority used to do so. The best leaders rise up in times of need, true, but the BEST leaders lead by example, not heavy handed authoritative usurpation, which is what the last thread looked like.

That having been said, I also applaud the intention and effort. I also am impressed with Yoss' adaptability and willingness to listen to criticism (constructive and otherwise) without resorting to immature tactics and name calling. I don't agree with some of his summaries, but there is a place for that elsewhere, and it doesn't matter anyway. I am just not that important.

I think we are all infected with something related to cabin fever at this point. I think a lot of our concerns about a whole pile of this type of related stuff will melt away like a snowball in the Arizona sun 2 days after the game is released. We can hope anyway. In the meantime, bickering about the imponderables is something to do.

TL;DR
bump

RobHaven
06-25-2013, 05:46 AM
"Limit 1 per credit card, per account". We need more Explanation.

I'm asking this as genuinely/not-dickishly as possible: What needs explaining about this? You can only have one VIP program on an account, and you can't use a credit card on more than one account. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, but I'm running on no sleep so whatever.

jai151
06-25-2013, 06:35 AM
I'm asking this as genuinely/not-dickishly as possible: What needs explaining about this? You can only have one VIP program on an account, and you can't use a credit card on more than one account. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, but I'm running on no sleep so whatever.

If you hop over to that thread, there's a lot of back and forth over what "One-per-account" covers in regards to other people (at least on the surface) paying for a VIP subscription and only using it to send the cheap packs to another account (friend, family, distant relation, split personality, imaginary friend) which has a VIP sub already.

Yoss
06-25-2013, 10:38 AM
VIP Program Abuse (link) (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25598)
Key points:

"Limit 1 per credit card, per account". We need more Explanation.
A friend gifts you his booster every week, abuse?
What, if any, are the limitations of having a VIP subscription?


Added, thanks.

I also updated the Authenticator item a little bit.

majin
06-25-2013, 01:49 PM
It's not very important but there's also a topic on what people want to see on treasure chests (maybe there is an idea there that's a good one that's not yet on the treasure chest) (Kyle vs the Bear Card ^___^)

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25409

-------------------------

UI request thread (haven't back read it yet but I assume this might be good to add to the list)

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24823

-------------------------

KS Tiers as In-game Titles - i don't like it but it being optional might be okay and i assume / expect it won't be hard to code

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25849

-------------------------

VIP talks (2 threads) - unlikely but still discussed on the forum with some decent ideas

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25672
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25428

-------------------------

Fishing in Hex

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25650

-------------------------

Request about the release of the uncut version of the KS video

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25617

-------------------------

idea -owned card icon

http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25573

Yoss
06-25-2013, 02:29 PM
Thanks for the data mining, Majin!

My vision for this thread is to link into discussions that have clear requests for action from CZE. If a discussion is still young or has not yet yielded anything actionable, I'm inclined to leave it off the list until it matures.

Treasure chests: I don't recall seeing anything actionable in the treasure chest thread. Did I miss something?

UI Requests: This is already linked, though the link goes to the tooltip post directly rather than the thread in general. Maybe we can continue to extract specific UI Requests that we like? I say this because the thread owner (Pwn1nP3nquin) has not updated the thread in a long time and seems to be MIA. I added this link to the Tooltip heading for now.

Owned card icon: This is part of the links for the UI thread already.

In-game Titles: This shows some promise, but I'm not sure it's ready yet. I'm open to considering it.

Fishing: I seem to remember lots of people in violent opposition to this idea, but that's qualitative, not quantitative. The thread ended with a quote: "Goldfishing is the only kind of fishing for me."

VIP alterations: Did these yield anything resembling a consensus? If so, could you make a few bullet points to go with each one?

KS video: I think this is a non-request? See quote.

It was suggested in the original post about this that the original 1 hour video was broken into the first week of videos with all the team members - thus he still had the numbers on his knuckles. So we have already seen it..

majin
06-25-2013, 04:48 PM
@Yoss:

I don't agree with most of the topics too, VIP+ (though I put in some input on what I thought are feasible and okay), fishing, KS teirs title. There aren't really consensus on most of these as these are just ideas that are being thrown to CZE in case they want to consider it

I can't remember all the items on the Treasure chests (as I only want the Kyle vs a Bear Card and maybe Cory + Kyle vs Bear Card) but maybe there is something there among all those posts that CZE might think it's okay to add to the treasure box

You already covered most of the important thread (well I for one consider them important) these are just the rest that have a lot of replies and most of them are decent / good ideas

it's okay if they aren't added to the list as they are already inactive and not that important, but there are people who put out their ideas out there so i want to help them out by helping CZE recognize these threads :)

Yoss
06-26-2013, 12:07 PM
Well, if the goal of the list was merely popular or useful links, then nico's "How to Spend Money in Hex" thread would be here because it's awesome. However, this thread is supposed to just be stuff that we are addressing to CZE directly.

Yoss
06-26-2013, 07:52 PM
New item added: Brick & Mortar

majin
06-26-2013, 08:21 PM
Well, if the goal of the list was merely popular or useful links, then nico's "How to Spend Money in Hex" thread would be here because it's awesome. However, this thread is supposed to just be stuff that we are addressing to CZE directly.

@Yoss: I agree and all the threads that I posted are addressing CZE (request for a feature / idea about how they should implement a new feature). I am curious if there is a thread there that wasn't addressed to CZE

Zarien
06-27-2013, 01:31 AM
Came in here expecting a different thread because it was Yoss. Pleasantly surprised when the thread was well done and informative. Nice thread.

Yoss
06-27-2013, 01:06 PM
Came in here expecting a different thread because it was Yoss. Pleasantly surprised when the thread was well done and informative. Nice thread.
Thanks? Or should I say "Ouch"? Implication being my stuff is usually garbage?

Diesbudt
06-27-2013, 01:07 PM
Thanks? Or should I say "Ouch"? Implication being my stuff is usually garbage?

Maybe he thought you were Yasi?

Yoss
06-27-2013, 01:09 PM
That other 4-letter Y-guy... maybe.

majin
06-27-2013, 01:37 PM
That other 4-letter Y-guy... maybe.

OUCH, mistaken you to be Yasi :(

Banquetto
06-27-2013, 02:53 PM
I'm asking this as genuinely/not-dickishly as possible: What needs explaining about this? You can only have one VIP program on an account, and you can't use a credit card on more than one account. Seems pretty straight-forward to me, but I'm running on no sleep so whatever.

There's a strong body of opinion (certainly not shared by me) that even if you have two separate people with two separate accounts and two separate credit cards, they should not both be allowed to have VIP subscriptions if one of them plans to give all or most of their weekly boosters to the other.

CZE's statements on the matter have been a fairly vague references to tracking players who are trying to "game the system". Nobody knows if this means that their wife is not allowed to create a VIP account and gift them cards.

Yoss
06-28-2013, 11:24 AM
Added the new (duplicate) informational tooltip thread.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Added the following:

Ensuring Good Competitive PVE (link)
Key points:
The Raid Leader bonuses are stipulated to only work in "non-tournament PVE", without giving definition to the "non-tournament PVE" term.
The community is very concerned about what the definition of "non-tournament PVE" will be. Some are worried that their value will be destroyed if "non-tournament PVE" is defined too narrowly, while others are worried that the level playing field of competitive PVE will be ruined if "non-tournament PVE" is defined too broadly.

Hatts
07-03-2013, 07:41 PM
Added the following:

Ensuring Good Competitive PVE (link)
Key points:
The Raid Leader bonuses are stipulated to only work in "non-tournament PVE", without giving definition to the "non-tournament PVE" term.
The community is very concerned about what the definition of "non-tournament PVE" will be. Some are worried that their value will be destroyed if "non-tournament PVE" is defined too narrowly, while others are worried that the level playing field of competitive PVE will be ruined if "non-tournament PVE" is defined too broadly.


I think you've found a mouse hole and are trying to drive a truck through it with this argument. Non-Tournament PvE has an implicit definition of anything that's not a PvE tournament and we know what that is (sometimes also referred to as Wild West or PvP-PvE tournament.)

dogmod
07-03-2013, 07:46 PM
I think you've found a mouse hole and are trying to drive a truck through it with this argument. Non-Tournament PvE has an implicit definition of anything that's not a PvE tournament and we know what that is (sometimes also referred to as Wild West or PvP-PvE tournament.)

Meh but he forgot to include the "all players grouped with" which is either explicitly or implicitly referencing raid content only.

Yoss
07-03-2013, 10:25 PM
I already answered you (Hatts) in the other thread. For now my text here is good as is. If you think I've incorrectly represented what we're discussing over there, please let me know how to word it better.

Hatts
07-04-2013, 07:54 AM
Sure.

Key points:
Some members of the community would like to implement a new feature to track world firsts for PvE raid encounters.
Furthermore, some members are concerned about the impact of the raid leader blessing on this world first list and would like to see something implemented to ensure this is fair

Corpselocker
07-04-2013, 08:49 AM
Yes, fishing isn't on the hot topic list.

Proud Member of Hex Fishing Union 401: Just for the halibut.

Yoss
07-04-2013, 09:23 AM
@Hatts:
Updated, thanks for the help.

Corpselocker
07-04-2013, 09:34 AM
Doh... Yoss ignores the fishing community...

Hatts
07-04-2013, 09:45 AM
@Hatts:
Updated, thanks for the help.

I hope someday you get a response on these :)

Yoss
07-04-2013, 07:46 PM
Doh... Yoss ignores the fishing community...
Go back and read Posts 16 and 17 of this thread, please.

EDIT:
quoted the wrong guy, doh!

Hatts
07-05-2013, 07:17 AM
Go back and read Posts 16 and 17 of this thread, please.

Action would be a response wouldn't it?

Yoss
07-05-2013, 09:41 AM
Oops, sorry Hatts, I meant to quote Corpselocker, sorry. I'll edit.

Yoss
07-05-2013, 10:56 PM
Updated the competitive PVE proposal link so that it goes to the latest version. The post right below the linked one is also quite enlightening.

Yoss
07-06-2013, 11:45 AM
Updated the competitive PVE proposal with Meldryn's awesome contribution.

Yoss
07-09-2013, 04:25 PM
I've added the Tradeability/Exclusives debate to the list.

Yoss
07-17-2013, 05:18 PM
Updated OP for the announcement of World First achievements.

Updated OP for the distinction between Story Mercenaries and Exclusive Mercenaries.

Yoss
07-29-2013, 01:49 PM
OP updated:

Communication Systems & Chat Features (link)
Key points:
Various chat modes are discussed.
Note that the "auction chat" idea has been rescinded, but the OP has not been updated yet.


Note: I'm jumping the gun on this one slightly since it's only at 9 posts, but it seems like a slam dunk topic. I can always remove it from this list later if it doesn't pan out as I'm predicting.

Yubar
07-29-2013, 03:18 PM
Nice thread yoss! Threre's thread on priority passing. Maybe once/if that matures, it'd make a good bullet

Yoss
07-29-2013, 03:26 PM
Thanks!

Sure, if you get to the point where you think it's ready, post a list like the one above and I'll post it up. (By the way, I don't think that's the first time Priority Passing has come up.)

dogmod
07-29-2013, 08:59 PM
Please don't self promote and raise necro threads.

Yoss
07-30-2013, 10:27 AM
Adding to OP:

Deck Names & Notes
Key points:
As decks sit in your collection it would be great to have notes about what each deck is for, sideboard ideas, and so on.

RobHaven
07-30-2013, 10:28 AM
I'm very much on record as having issues with the execution of this thread's concept, but I'll still jump in here in Yoss' defense. Should such an aggregated list of issues need to exist - and absent a sticky - it'd need to be bumped every now and again. Especially when updated.

Necro? Borderline (10 days isn't that long), but I'm of the opinion that it might be justified anyway.
Self-promoting? I definitely wouldn't go that far. For as much as you might think there's a bias in the OP content, I would imagine you'd be hard-pressed to successfully argue that the intent is to self-promote.

RobHaven
07-30-2013, 10:29 AM
On an unrelated note, is it pronounced y-oh-ss (hard O) or boss with a y? I never know which it is. Same with Gwaer.

Yoss
07-30-2013, 10:31 AM
If there weren't so may sticky already, this would be one. 20% of the front page is already sticky though.

ossuary
07-30-2013, 10:49 AM
On an unrelated note, is it pronounced y-oh-ss (hard O) or boss with a y? I never know which it is. Same with Gwaer.

I hear it as toss, but with a y. No idea if that's right or not, though. :)

Stok3d
07-30-2013, 10:49 AM
If there weren't so may sticky already, this would be one. 20% of the front page is already sticky though.

This is a thread that is appropriate for a sig or saved as personal repository. However, this is not something appropriate for Sticky imo. These are topics that you have simply filtered out and have extracted points from those topics that you find appropriate. Realize also that many of these ideas may not coincide with the direction CZE is taking the game. Why would you sticky this?

This thread is nothing more than your personal likes on suggestions for the game--nothing more. I agree with the suggestion noted above with ceasing to necro this thread. You are in fact going against CoC with this behavior.

RobHaven
07-30-2013, 11:14 AM
Again, I do take issue with the [in my personal opinion] bias shown in the OP, but I also have noted the effort to open up the process of inclusion to the community as a whole. Since the initial blow-back occurred (of which I was a loud voice supporting the call for change), I haven't seen a suggestion rejected.

Maybe it's not ideal yet, but it's certainly headed in the right direction.

Your points are valid, for the most part, I just don't think tearing down (or condemning) a well-meaning effort is the most effective way to achieve what we're ultimately calling for.

dogmod
07-30-2013, 02:54 PM
If there weren't so may sticky already, this would be one. 20% of the front page is already sticky though.

You would sticky your own thread in which you were the only one posting repeatedly for nearly a month ? Interesting

Yoss
07-30-2013, 05:08 PM
@Stok3d:
There was and is an open invitation for input to the OP. Complaining about it without providing constructive input is not very valid. Any list will obviously be biased by those who give input to it. So if you don't like the particular bias of the moment, provide your own inputs to swing the bias in another direction. There's no such thing as unbiased reporting. (Even if you just report facts, it is still biased by which facts you include and in what order.)

As far as "may not coincide with the direction CZE is taking", isn't that the whole point of making suggestions? Sure, CZE will do what they want and it won't always be what any given person around here wants, but why should that stop us from chatting about what we think would be good for the game?

Similar thoughts from the previous incarnation of this thread:

so how do you propose we get the opinions of those who don't want to participate here?

it's like complaining on how an election went but you didn't vote


You would sticky your own thread in which you were the only one posting repeatedly for nearly a month ? Interesting
You assume too much. I said "it would be sticky". That doesn't mean I would have been the one to make it so, nor that I would have been the impetus. In point of fact, the idea to sticky wasn't even mine:


Kudo's, they should consider a sticky for this. I think all your viewpoints are spot on.

And for the love of god, can we please stop stickying everything? Nearly a third of the page is now sticky threads. Something has to give. ;)

This thread to me, is a great jumping point for finding important issues to the community for both CZE and other members of the community to go to threads relevant to them and weigh in with their 2 cents in the appropriate threads.
Thank you Yoss for putting this together.

dogmod
07-30-2013, 07:31 PM
My only assumption was that you had no direct knowledge of anyone else's intent to sticky this thread who had the ability to sticky it. I can only assume since your quotes didn't address thhis that you are deflecting my main point.

I cannot link as well as you but I assume, again, that you have read the community guidelines regarding necro threads and self promotion. But perhaps I assume to much.

Gorgol
07-30-2013, 11:26 PM
My only assumption was that you had no direct knowledge of anyone else's intent to sticky this thread who had the ability to sticky it. I can only assume since your quotes didn't address thhis that you are deflecting my main point.

I cannot link as well as you but I assume, again, that you have read the community guidelines regarding necro threads and self promotion. But perhaps I assume to much.
but he's a mod, do the same rules apply?

Shadowelf
07-31-2013, 07:55 AM
but he's a mod, do the same rules apply?

If the same rules don't apply, he is back to the lab for serious repairs ;)

Yoss
07-31-2013, 04:00 PM
Modbots are under basically the same rules as anyone, so far as I'm aware. If you believe a modbot is in need of repairs, please see the modbot sticky for instructions.

Any hope we can get back to constructive updates to the OP? This is supposed to be a community tool, not a flame war. If you feel there is an item that is missing or unfairly treated, please bring it up. (Competitive PVE probably needs an update, I'm guessing.)

Gwaer, if you're reading this, do you want to provide a summary of your Tournament PVE thread?

Gwaer
07-31-2013, 04:20 PM
Tournament PVE Modes!?
Various suggestions for potential tournament PVE scenarios, and tracking/reward systems to tie them together.


Unlike most of the threads that are being tracked here, there's not really a statement that is being made, or anything to sum up, it is what it is.

ossuary
07-31-2013, 06:56 PM
Has fishing made it on here yet, or is the master list still being selectively cultivated?

Yoss
08-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Added the Tournament PVE, under the PVE heading, last bullet. The wording could probably be better. Let me know.

I'll go re-look at the fishing thread.

Gwaer
08-01-2013, 02:31 PM
The wording could definitely be better. Since a) world first isn't a tournament. And b) my thread has nothing to do with your world first nonsense and I'd prefer it not be conflated because of poor word choice.

Gwaer
08-01-2013, 02:37 PM
Even in this one thing you're trying to push your agenda by taking the liberty of assuming in text people getting world first achievements are a tournament. Even though literally no one at last count agreed with you on that. That pretty concisely shows everyone's problem with this thread. You're just incapable of putting your bias down long enough to make a list of things without corrupting it. What's wrong with my summary? "various suggestions for potential tournament PVE scenarios and tracking/reward systems to tie them together"

Yubar
08-01-2013, 03:07 PM
I agreed with him, a you're kind of being mean. I'm sensing a lot of hate in this thread, might have something to do with his new mod status. At the end of the day its his thread, he can basically put what he likes in it. The fact that he isn't and that he is trying to make opposing arguments heard speaks volumes, soooo yeah, could you just pm him instead

Yoss
08-01-2013, 03:29 PM
I agreed with him, a you're kind of being mean. I'm sensing a lot of hate in this thread, might have something to do with his new mod status. At the end of the day its his thread, he can basically put what he likes in it. The fact that he isn't and that he is trying to make opposing arguments heard speaks volumes, soooo yeah, could you just pm him instead
EDIT: Yubar clarified that he was talking to Gwaer, not me. Sorry, Yubar.

(Response to Gwaer coming up.)

Yoss
08-01-2013, 03:41 PM
The wording could definitely be better. Since a) world first isn't a tournament. And b) my thread has nothing to do with your world first nonsense and I'd prefer it not be conflated because of poor word choice.
The only reference to "tournament" is the first bullet and "your" bullet:
•The Raid Leader bonuses are stipulated to only work in "non-tournament PVE", without giving definition to the "non-tournament PVE" term.
•There is also a compilation of Tournament PVE ideas (link) other than World First.

If it's the "other than World First" part that bothers you, we can change it. Maybe just delete that part? I'll also add "No PVE tournament structures have been announced." which then directly implies that the announcement for WF was not recognized as tournament PVE.

I really don't think it is a whole new category in the OP; the whole thing is about competitive PVE, tournament or not.

I've reworded things. Let me know if that's better.

Gwaer
08-01-2013, 06:28 PM
Yea, that's much better. Thanks for the edits.

Yoss
08-01-2013, 06:45 PM
Fishing thread analysis:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25650

In favor:
3HoursDungeon, 8
baggymacaw, 11
ConnorJS, 15
Corpselocker, 6, 13
Dralon, 7
Frey, 5
GreyGriffin, OP
Justinkp, 56
Leperchan5, 50
madar, 31
Shadowelf, 10
Zophie, 29

Not against:
Aradon, 9
majin, 14
RobHaven, 21

Against:
Delrusant, 23
Fateanomaly, 53
Fleckenwhatever, 60
Gen91, 12
Mr.Funsocks, 49
MrSalty, 45
nearlysober, 39
Rtsands45, 55, 58, 61
Talreth, 34
wildcard, 54
Yoss, 35
ZeroCool, 40

Unclear or off topic:
jai151, 25
jgsugden, 44
Kietay, 51
Mushroom_C1oud, 38 (favor?)
nicosharp, 30, 33 (against?)
sckolar, 52
taveren, 27

It looks like a fairly even split. There's a quote below that I think pretty well captures the opposition's primary concern.


Systems like fishing in games, if they provide any sort of incentive or reward... then it becomes something mandatory to do for much of the playerbase, even if they hate it.


So, fishing makes the cut, though I must admit some frustration that no one from the "in favor" crowd was willing to put in the time to defend it and instead villainized me until I did it for them. Maybe that's not how it was intended, maybe I brought such behavior on myself, but it's how I feel about it. (Also interesting, ossuary wasn't even in the fishing discussion!)

Fishing and Other Mini-Games (link)
Key points:
Many MMO games have mini-games on which to spend one's idle time. Some players enjoy this option, others do not.
Several reasons are presented in favor, mostly as filler for between matches or raids or while waiting for a friend to log in.
The key reason for opposition seems to be the tendency of such mini-games to offer rewards that are too good. This leads to a feeling that the mini-game is "mandatory" even when a player does not wish to play the mini-game. It is my impression that most of those opposed to the mini-games would become neutral if the mini-games: (1) did not provide any rewards that were not obtainable elsewhere and (2) were less efficient than the normal means of seeking those rewards.


Let me know if these words are acceptable.

ossuary
08-02-2013, 04:20 AM
It's a good summary.

I wasn't in the conversation because I didn't feel I had anything extra to contribute. I was more concerned about the appearance of bias associated with a moderator choosing which items did and did not merit inclusion in the "one true list" of community topics, based on their own opinion about whether or not those topics had reached some kind of arbitrary (unknown) threshold or level of merit.

Thank you for taking the time to review the topic objectively and include it along with the others - I feel better about the whole thing, seeing you willing to listen and pick up those previously missed items.

Yubar
08-02-2013, 09:04 AM
I think you misunderstood my last comment yoss, as it was directed to Gwaer

Yoss
08-04-2013, 02:56 PM
Thanks oss. Sorry about that Yubar.

Kamino72
08-05-2013, 02:19 AM
Good job Yoss. Very helpful structuration. This topic should be sticked.

Yoss
08-08-2013, 08:31 PM
Thanks Kamino. I left it to Kami's judgement whether to sticky or not.

I'm going to add this thread to the OP:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26840

Shadowelf
08-08-2013, 09:00 PM
Actually my opinion on fishing was stated at post #68

I don't mind fishing or mini games like fishing aka mindless tasks to pass the time; actually there are times that i'm bored to do anything else but that. So i wouldn't mind if i was doing this and also winning something in the process. But i can also feel the people that don't like it; so maybe if it was implemented, keep the prizes small like gold or tournament tickets.

Edit; awesome summary btw :)

Yoss
08-13-2013, 05:07 PM
Thanks, SE.

OP updated for AH, Currency, and RMT.

Gwaer
08-13-2013, 05:14 PM
Are bumps actually not against the coc? When you claimed that people bumping my threads were breaking the rules you were mistaken? Or do modbots have some sort of special we don't have to follow the rules privileges that were not made clear to the rest of us?

Xenavire
08-13-2013, 05:26 PM
Um, Gwaer, I don't know the circumstance in which you were 'told off', but he added new information to the thread, and then mentioned it. That has the same net effect as just adding new information in a brand new post.

I just think the context is important here - this wasn't some random act of 'bump' for attention, it is bringing light to new information.

So in the same context, your post seems defamatory - something I believe is against the CoC. So just watch out where you start trying to pick fights, for your own good.

Gwaer
08-13-2013, 05:30 PM
Adding things to the OP that no one is discussing, seems like a needless bump, for 2, this thread is a thread that consists solely of existing topics, which is against the coc in and of itself.

This entire thread is him bumping it repeatedly, when very few people have commented, while in my tournaments pve thread someone said "they were enjoying the conversation but didn't have much to add so they guess this is just a bump" and he came down on them. I personally don't see much difference.

Xenavire
08-13-2013, 05:56 PM
The difference is that this is a tool, and informational - there isn't meant to be talking (meaning we are actually off topic here.) He put this together for players and devs to browse through - it should be stickied, and shouldn't need bumps of any kind. And again, the intent of the bump is the point of focus - these bumps have been in the interest of informing people of an important edit to the OP. He could, instead, add all those updates as new posts, making this thread a complete mess.

And when someone basically admits they are bumping something for the hell of it, that is a bad kind of bump - no new information, nothing added. No brainer there.

So just drop it, and let him do his thing.

Gwaer
08-13-2013, 06:02 PM
This isn't any more of a tool than any other thread. If it should be stickied it would have been. This is a list of important topics to Yoss. It's a way that he can get his opinions at the top of a thread, and make his ideas seem important. I had hoped it would be used otherwise originally, but it wasn't. Pretty much every bullet point is a thing he himself has argued for, and the ones that aren't took hundreds of responses to get them added. It's not in any way a rounded objective summary of all of these posts. Which is why it isn't stickied. It's Yoss' opinions of things going on in the forums. If I attempted to make a similar thread it would be locked. When I attempted to make a thread discussing more generally every possible economic implementation and the pros and cons of each it was locked.

His thing that he is doing is the problem.

Stok3d
08-13-2013, 06:12 PM
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26351

Welcome to the General Discussion forum!

... Please do not bump threads for visibility and do not raise long-dead threads from their graves.


Yoss, I am closing this thread per the above statement via Sanik in the General Discussion Thread Sticky.
The OP can still remain updated and the thread is easily found via your sig. It's best to avoid perpetuating drama that ensues because of the bumps you give every 3 days or so.