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OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 09:55 AM
Edit #3 (6/28): Ignore everything about the platinum cost. We're all about gold cost now.

I think I should start a "Yah or Nah" section for topics I want to discuss.

PvE Booster Packs. I know PvE isn't for everyone but for those that do want to play or want to get involved, would you be for or against Cryptozoic selling PvE booster packs? They've stated they won't sell anything besides decks and booster packs so this falls in line with what they've stated. What if all the cards that could be obtained from boosters were also obtainable via PvE content? I don't want this to end up being a "Pay to Win" scenario for people so I'm suggesting you can get the same cards via PvE content just at a much slower pace. I'm also not saying all PvE cards from the PvE content would be in the boosters, only about 50-75%, just enough reason for some to actually play PvE.

There's also a lot that could be done. They would be the same cost of PvP booster packs, $2. This would allow Cryptozoic to have an exchange of 1 PvE for 1 PvP booster. Let's say every so often a PvE booster drops in a raid or something. That could allow you to convert it to PvP so you could draft. This would also be a good way for PvP players to get into PvE by exchanging packs they win into PvE boosters.

Just curious what everyone thinks of the idea of having PvE boosters that are not "Pay to Win".

Edit (after 3 pages of Nah's): Yoss proposed buying them with gold instead of platinum/cash. Does this change anything? Would you like to see PvE booster drafts and sealed events? Does that idea make you want PvE boosters more or less?

Edit #2 (6/27): Based on everyone's opinion, we all seem more open to the gold aspect. So going off that could you see a reason why having unique cards in booster packs would be a problem? If there are unique individual cards sold by vendors, why not booster packs of unique cards? Even more of a gold sink than individual cards since it will be cards at random and will be worth more since they're harder to get.

jai151
06-25-2013, 10:07 AM
I'm very on the fence with this one. On the one hand, I like the idea of PvE having a booster equivalent, but I really only like the idea if the boosters are "filler' cards. The really good cards should be from content.

But if that is how it's set up, then the boosters at 2 bucks a pop is a ripoff.

Xenavire
06-25-2013, 10:07 AM
Earnable only through PvE or not at all. PvE is meant to be entirely F2P, and no matter what is said in the defence of an idea like this, it undermines that very premise, and becomes too much like the paywalls in other F2P games. You have the Platinum AH to buy PvE cards for 'real' money, that is more than enough.

My vote is nah. Unless they drop from bosses etc, for fun and as an epic drop, rather than some sort of paid source.

ZeroCool
06-25-2013, 10:09 AM
I'm not sure how much value there would be in buying a pack from CZE. You'll get PVE cards from doing the missions, and I'm sure they'll be millions of them in the AH/Market anyways.

I'm neither for or against it.

I just personally don't think it'd be necessary.

Diesbudt
06-25-2013, 10:10 AM
If they dropped off a raid boss as a very rare drop, I could see this being a cool idea. However...

1- Not tradable 1 to 1 with PvP boosters. Sure someone can trade you, but not tradable to CZE store for 1 to 1
2- It stays as a rare drop with no chest, or only a chest with a random equipment piece in it.

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 10:20 AM
Earnable only through PvE or not at all. PvE is meant to be entirely F2P, and no matter what is said in the defence of an idea like this, it undermines that very premise, and becomes too much like the paywalls in other F2P games.

I see this as merely allowing those that want to get a playset of X to do so without repeatedly having to run a certain scenario. I can see how you would be frustrated if there was some sort of timer built into the game and it said, "You can buy a PvE booster to reset your playtime." But that's not the case here, or at least I don't see it that way.

And I honestly wouldn't buy the boosters but I like the idea of them being there for others that want to focus on PvE and spend money doing so. I want there to be an equivalent to PvE as there is to PvP. I can get cards instantly to play PvP and would like to see PvE players be able to get PvE focused cards instantly as well.

KaosSoul
06-25-2013, 10:25 AM
Nah just Nah, if you want to Pay to get PVE card faster we have the AH, PVE booster would ruin the PVE side in turn ruining the whole game, the game is perfect has it is on the subject of boosters and deck

Xenavire
06-25-2013, 10:33 AM
This does not advance your character any faster through the content but merely allows those that want to get a playset of X to do so without repeatedly having to run a certain scenario. I can see how you would be frustrated if there was some sort of timer built into the game and it said, "You can buy a PvE booster to reset your playtime." But that's not the case here, or at least I don't see it that way.

And I honestly wouldn't buy the boosters but I like the idea of them being there for others that want to focus on PvE and spend money doing so. I want there to be an equivalent to PvE as there is to PvP. I can get cards instantly to play PvP and would like to see PvE players be able to get PvE focused cards instantly as well.

Can I point out that what you are trying to achieve just sounds like the auction house? Specifically things like playsets. You aren't likely to pull playsets of decent cards out of boosters without a large investment. You can get those same singles relatively easily on the AH - and if you limit what goes into the boosters in the first place, I guarantee you can get better on the AH. Overall, it seems like a waste of resources.

Like I said, as a drop it would work fine. Those could be sold on the AH, filling the need (or lack therof). You could buy the boosters, or the singles. I do appreciate the thought behind it, boosters are fun, but not for money in a F2P game.

ramseytheory
06-25-2013, 10:58 AM
I really don't like this idea. It would send a very strong (if inaccurate) signal to prospective players that you have to spend money in PVE to do well. It would also devalue chasy PVE stuff on the auction house, which makes the PVP side of things less accessible by cutting off a source of free platinum.

jgsugden
06-25-2013, 11:04 AM
PVE is an MMO, short for MMORPG. RPG stands for role playing game. The idea is to play a role and act out stories. Buying 'random packs' of stuff is kind of against the idea. Instead, I think you'll see the auction house and stores (in game and out) selling the good stuff, but not the random stuff.

I would support them monitizing PvE in a few fun, but non-advantageous, ways, such as allowing you to pay to upgrade a card or item's artistic aspects (border, artwork,s sound effects, graphics, etc...) - especially if a portion of that money went to charity. I don't want Crypt sales to ever be the primary way to get meaningful advantages in the MMORPG side of things, but flash for cash is fine.

I would also be fine with there being a few places in the MMO you have to pay platinum to enter, which have exclusive PvE cards and items inside of them (as long as they are not powerhouse items/cards), with the proceeds going 100% to charity. I'd be fine if these charity locations gave experience at advanced rates, too.

I would also be fine if, once you have a PC that is X level, you can pay platinum to level up another PC on your account to 1/2 X level. (If I have a 30th level cleric, I can pay cash to turn my 1st level wizard into a 15th level wizard). If people do not want to repeat stuff they've previously done (even if slightly different with different races and classes), I have no problem with Crypt allowing them to pay an amount to bypass some of those levels.

Daer
06-25-2013, 11:09 AM
Nay

jai151
06-25-2013, 11:15 AM
I would also be fine with there being a few places in the MMO you have to pay platinum to enter, which have exclusive PvE cards and items inside of them (as long as they are not powerhouse items/cards), with the proceeds going 100% to charity. I'd be fine if these charity locations gave experience at advanced rates, too.

I would also be fine if, once you have a PC that is X level, you can pay platinum to level up another PC on your account to 1/2 X level. (If I have a 30th level cleric, I can pay cash to turn my 1st level wizard into a 15th level wizard). If people do not want to repeat stuff they've previously done (even if slightly different with different races and classes), I have no problem with Crypt allowing them to pay an amount to bypass some of those levels.

These have at least as much of an air of pay to win about them as packs do, if not more. Just because some portion of the money is going to charity, that isn't going to offset that initial reaction.

I think CZE just needs to stick to its guns and keep PVE 100% free.

Thelaasa
06-25-2013, 11:20 AM
I have a few problems with the OP's suggestion. First, the PvE campaign has been advertised as completely F2P, with the P2P aspect being the PvP side of the game. I am against anything that would add a price tag, either additional or optional, to the PvE side of the game. Second, they already have boosters that you can buy, and the cards you get in them can be used in PvP or PvE. Can you imagine the amount of confusion it would bring, and the amount of complaining and needless headaches, if some boosters contained cards that could be used in PvP or PvE, but other boosters contained cards that could only be used in PvE? And before anyone comes in with any sort of "but they would be clearly labeled" defense, I will remind everyone that clear, concise labeling has never stopped idiots in the past, and the internet is overflowing with idiots, which means that some of the will inevitably buy the wrong pack, and then we will get to deal with all of the blowback from that. Just not worth it, if you ask me.

Yoss
06-25-2013, 11:32 AM
What if the PvE pack cost was Gold, not Plat?

You could even have different factions sell packs from different pools of cards to fit the roleplay aspect of the game. It also functions as a gold sink.

Armies
06-25-2013, 11:33 AM
nay, just use your pvp cards in pve until you get the pve cards you need and/or the equipment you need

Yoss
06-25-2013, 11:36 AM
Nay to the OP, or to my suggestion, or to something else?

jai151
06-25-2013, 11:38 AM
What if the PvE pack cost was Gold, not Plat?

You could even have different factions sell packs from different pools of cards to fit the roleplay aspect of the game. It also functions as a gold sink.

I'd go for a gold pack, given it had the limitations I set out earlier (Mainly deck filler cards with the really good cards only attainable through content)

Aradon
06-25-2013, 11:42 AM
The accessibility offered via packs is already offered via the Auction House, so they're not really necessary for that reason.

As for pay-to-enter zones, I'm absolutely against that. Even using gold as the fee is really sketchy, and using platinum is an awful idea that demolishes any sort of 'fair f2p' concept.

Yoss
06-25-2013, 11:50 AM
The accessibility offered via packs is already offered via the Auction House, so they're not really necessary for that reason.
It's not just accessibility, it's also the feel of interacting with the world to buy your goods instead of just the AH. Some casual players play just for the feel of it, interacting with the pretty graphics and fun characters. Granted, we won't have the normal 3rd person view with toons running around (though that would be cool, and other than dev cost I'm not sure why they're not doing it), but there will still (hopefully) be well-done RPG elements to interact with.

Ilikerice
06-25-2013, 11:50 AM
I don't think that PVE packs should be able to be purchased, but maybe if they could be won, or given out after completing a quest as a reward. Obviously PVE packs would contain PVE cards or random equipment, but as an effort to possibly ease F2P PVE players into the PVP maybe there could be a random PVP common or uncommon card in the pack? This isn't going to help in a draft in any way, but for events or tournaments that require PVP cards it could draw some PVE players in. Where if they like the PVP scene and want to start to play competitively or in drafts they start to pay for their PVP boosters.

Vorpal
06-25-2013, 11:55 AM
I vote no.

Pve card are supposed to be earned only through pve, not you buying them from CZE en masse.

Presumably also this would trivialize most of their encounters.

I quite like the idea of starting with just my starter deck and building up my collection of pve cards through doing the pve campaign.

nandus
06-25-2013, 12:03 PM
As it's been stated before, the PVE experience is supposed to be F2P, and thus CZE must be very careful what monetization(if any) introduces in this side of the fence. Regardless of what a booster actually contains, it will make the player more powerful in some way, either by providing more choices or/and powerful cards. However monetizing doesn't strictly mean going P2P or P2W, there are countless examples of F2P games which sell stuff. The key here is that anything which a PVE player can purchase, must also be available for free through gameplay.

Although it's only for PVE, CZE still needs to worry about balance, both because it needs to make players not feel like they are missing out for not getting PVE boosters and to balance PVE/PVP formats such as Wild West. A treasure chest in PVE can be thought as a booster, since it can contain random cards and equipment, however those are balanced directly by CZE and are without a cost for the player; as such are a totally different thing.

Another thing to keep in mind is the card pool in PVE, although it will grow with each dungeon/raid added to the game, I think it's safe to say that it won't nearly be as numerous and as varied as the standard format in PVP. So they would have to introduce some kind of PVE card rotation in order to keep things interesting, otherwise PVE boosters would eventually become undesirably. This is noticeably less problematic for other RPG games, in which items are generated randomly; however it's still a problem as Diablo III hyperinflation woes show.

If pressed to answer now, I would have to go with "Nay"; but it's not beyond the realm of possibility for me. They will certainly try to monetize the PVE side of Hex for sure, the only question is how. In my opinion, a much better option would be for providing a VIP PVE package, with an increase in exp/loot gain and some other stuff. In fact I already proposed something like this in another thread, more precisely here (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=25672&page=5&p=260095#post260095)

Yoss
06-25-2013, 01:06 PM
@ posts 21 and 22:

What if they cost Gold instead of Plat and had to be purchased from NPCs you find in the content? (Note, I don't care that much if they have PvE boosters or not. I'm just trying to help the discussion.) I agree they should avoid PvE boosters that cost Plat.

wererat
06-25-2013, 01:31 PM
Nah, you can use pvp cards in your pve decks so the packs already serve that dual purpose. These cards act as filler cards based around strong cards that you can only get off dungeons.

majin
06-25-2013, 01:32 PM
Nay, if someone wants to spend cash to get PvE cards, it's simple, convert it to platinum then buy PvE cards for plat or gold (convert your plat to gold first)

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 01:52 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing them be sold for gold but I just think PvE players should be able to get PvE powerful cards/equipment right from the start if they want.

Everyone keeps pointing and saying, "This is suppose to be Free to Play..." Adding PvE boosters doesn't change that. It's the same game. They don't take away anything, they just give a way to obtain it faster. I thought it would also be a cool way to introduce PvE packs to draft and play sealed events.

This would probably play out like this, "I wouldn't mind PvE boosters costing gold." "PvE boosters are now available for X amount of gold." "X amount of gold is equal to $2 worth of plat."

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 01:53 PM
Argh, apparently this was a double post!!!!!!!!

Yoss
06-25-2013, 01:55 PM
"X amount of gold is equal to $2 worth of plat."
This needs to be absolutely avoided. Plat and Gold need to have a floating exchange rate with each other. See the Gold/Plat/$US thread for details.

EDIT:
Yeah, the forums are really acting up for me as well. On multiple computers and IP lines, no less.

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 01:59 PM
This needs to be absolutely avoided. Plat and Gold need to have a floating exchange rate with each other. See the Gold/Plat/$US thread for details.

Sorry, I'm not saying Cryptozoic would define the gold to plat exchange rate. I apologize if it came off that way. I'm just saying if they were to sell PvE packs they would probably be at a ridiculous rate of gold and it wouldn't surprise me if Cryptozoic introduced them at a gold cost that was equivalent to $2 or more worth of plat based on the communities exchange rate.

Vorpal
06-25-2013, 02:03 PM
@ posts 21 and 22:

What if they cost Gold instead of Plat and had to be purchased from NPCs you find in the content? (Note, I don't care that much if they have PvE boosters or not. I'm just trying to help the discussion.) I agree they should avoid PvE boosters that cost Plat.

There is no difference between what you describe and what I imagine the actual system is, namely, that you fight and beat bosses and obtain PvE cards there.

In both cases the subsequent cards can be sold on the AH and in both cases you can only obtain these cards by beating pve content.

I see no reason to award players random cards instead of specific cards upon beating a boss.

As long as people can't just buy up pve cards direct from CZE in any quantity they want.

Tiuvath
06-25-2013, 02:04 PM
Nay

Cryptozic would jeopardize their f2p strategy with this. I think they made a clever move by seperating their pay-to-compete and f2p into pvp and pve respectively and they should stick with it.

wayne
06-25-2013, 02:08 PM
Nah. No need for this.

If you feel you need "filler" cards for your pve deck, just buy pvp boosters and put those in.

If you want to spend gold/platinum/dollars to progress in pve, there is always the auction house.

Gwaer
06-25-2013, 02:10 PM
Nah

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 02:19 PM
If you feel you need "filler" cards for your pve deck, just buy pvp boosters and put those in.

The power level between PvE and PvP cards is pretty big as far as I can tell. And I understand someone COULD use the Auction House but with PvE boosters it opens the door to limited play on the PvE side of things. Not to mention you could build a few dungeons that play off that aspect. This, of course, is based off the idea that PvE boosters cost gold and not platinum.

Also, if you're okay with the idea of a vendor selling you a card for gold, why not a booster? Let's say 1 card is 100 gold but a booster is 2000 gold for 15 cards and guarantees a rare, would you not like that? And say you could booster draft for 3 PvE packs (6000 gold) and 1000 gold entry (7000 total gold). Does this now not sound interesting?

I guess I should never have made it costs real money because people are against that even though people are for buying plat and using plat to buy gold and then using that gold to buy cards.

Yoss
06-25-2013, 02:36 PM
Matt, maybe update the OP to clarify prices should be in Gold (if implemented at all).

maniza
06-25-2013, 02:57 PM
Makes no sense. If you need cards just get pvp boosters they are ment to be usable in pve. Pve cards are ment to be adquired as loot, quest rewards and other means for free in the campaign. For people saying pve cards are stronger than pvp cards. Cory himself said that this is not true they have similar power level. He did said some pve cards have more bold abilities because of the nature of pve. Ots a nah for me.

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 02:58 PM
Matt, maybe update the OP to clarify prices should be in Gold (if implemented at all).

I've updated it but I wanted my original statement to stand so that people can see why everyone hates me for the first 4 pages. ;-)

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 03:00 PM
For people saying pve cards are stronger than pvp cards. Cory himself said that this is not true they have similar power level.

I can't ever believe this to be true since you can use equipment in PvE and not PvP. Equipment makes PvE ridiculous as far as I can tell.

facade
06-25-2013, 03:05 PM
Not to sound so negative, I don't think booster drafts for PvE would work well. A couple reasons:

- How will the other PvE features be incorporated into the draft: like equipment, champions, and mercenaries? Limited formats are about equalizing the playing field, so you can't let people just use their own equipment and champion. You can just say no equipment, but that is part of the allure of PvE. In addition, the mercenaries and champions all have levels. Do you give out underwhelming un-leveled versions? Do you let players have access to fully decked out champions? Regardless of the choice, people will complain.

- Many people play PvE because they don't like to play with people. I'm not saying that there is no crossover, but why should CZE spend time developing game modes that might have only niche appeal? There is already a game mode for drafting, using the PvP set of cards that are balanced and designed to be drafted. There doesn't need to be a second.

- And the biggest strike: From what I've seen so far, PvE isn't necessarily as balanced as PvP is. PvE drafts and sealed play would likely devolve to who opened the flashiest bomb. Not exactly a very compelling Limited format.


In summary, against PvE booster drafts: other features of PvE likely dropped for draft, PvE players are not ones to likely appreciate drafting, and PvE cards are designed for dungeons and not drafting. Couple this with all the other strikes against them, and I think it is best if PvE does NOT have boosters to purchase.

maniza
06-25-2013, 03:07 PM
I can't ever believe this to be true since you can use equipment in PvE and not PvP. Equipment makes PvE ridiculous as far as I can tell.

Pvp cards have equipment, you can use it in the pve portion of the game. Look it up

maniza
06-25-2013, 03:11 PM
Not to sound so negative, I don't think booster drafts for PvE would work well. A couple reasons:

- How will the other PvE features be incorporated into the draft: like equipment, champions, and mercenaries? Limited formats are about equalizing the playing field, so you can't let people just use their own equipment and champion. You can just say no equipment, but that is part of the allure of PvE. In addition, the mercenaries and champions all have levels. Do you give out underwhelming un-leveled versions? Do you let players have access to fully decked out champions? Regardless of the choice, people will complain.

- Many people play PvE because they don't like to play with people. I'm not saying that there is no crossover, but why should CZE spend time developing game modes that might have only niche appeal? There is already a game mode for drafting, using the PvP set of cards that are balanced and designed to be drafted. There doesn't need to be a second.

- And the biggest strike: From what I've seen so far, PvE isn't necessarily as balanced as PvP is. PvE drafts and sealed play would likely devolve to who opened the flashiest bomb. Not exactly a very compelling Limited format.


In summary, against PvE booster drafts: other features of PvE likely dropped for draft, PvE players are not ones to likely appreciate drafting, and PvE cards are designed for dungeons and not drafting. Couple this with all the other strikes against them, and I think it is best if PvE does NOT have boosters to purchase.

Yup and pvp has been designed with draft in mind, pve has not. But that does not mean that they can have a dungeon whit draft as a mechanic. Devs said they liked that idea.

sckolar
06-25-2013, 03:12 PM
I'm very on the fence with this one. On the one hand, I like the idea of PvE having a booster equivalent, but I really only like the idea if the boosters are "filler' cards. The really good cards should be from content.

But if that is how it's set up, then the boosters at 2 bucks a pop is a ripoff.

What if you could obtain only certain cards through PVE booster packs, and save specific ones for PVE play ONLY? Perhapse that would balance it out a bit

facade
06-25-2013, 03:17 PM
Yup and pvp has been designed with draft in mind, pve has not. But that does not mean that they can have a dungeon whit draft as a mechanic. Devs said they liked that idea.

No argument from me, but I believe the argument put forth by OP was to have players draft PvE boosters. And that is what I was arguing against.

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 03:29 PM
- How will the other PvE features be incorporated into the draft: like equipment, champions, and mercenaries? Limited formats are about equalizing the playing field, so you can't let people just use their own equipment and champion. You can just say no equipment, but that is part of the allure of PvE. In addition, the mercenaries and champions all have levels. Do you give out underwhelming un-leveled versions? Do you let players have access to fully decked out champions? Regardless of the choice, people will complain.

Make all equipment available to everyone? Make it so the cards opened have the equipment already equipped. Don't players already get all the champions at their disposal in PvP limited?


Many people play PvE because they don't like to play with people. I'm not saying that there is no crossover, but why should CZE spend time developing game modes that might have only niche appeal? There is already a game mode for drafting, using the PvP set of cards that are balanced and designed to be drafted. There doesn't need to be a second.

That's definitely an opinion. I'd like to be able to draft PvE cards, I think it'd be fun and crazy. They could also pick out the cards in PvE that are best suited for limited play.


And the biggest strike: From what I've seen so far, PvE isn't necessarily as balanced as PvP is. PvE drafts and sealed play would likely devolve to who opened the flashiest bomb. Not exactly a very compelling Limited format.

As far as I'm aware that's usually what can happen in the majority of limited play events.


In summary, against PvE booster drafts: other features of PvE likely dropped for draft, PvE players are not ones to likely appreciate drafting, and PvE cards are designed for dungeons and not drafting. Couple this with all the other strikes against them, and I think it is best if PvE does NOT have boosters to purchase.

Aside from the limited aspect do you not see any other potential for PvE boosters?

I'm just curious for anyone that is against boosters to tell me if they are for or against single card purchases from vendors. If you're for single card purchases from vendors then why not a booster at a discounted price guaranteeing a rare+ card? Does that argument have legs to stand on? That if they sell 1 card at a vendor, why not an entire booster pack?

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 03:33 PM
What if you could obtain only certain cards through PVE booster packs, and save specific ones for PVE play ONLY? Perhapse that would balance it out a bit

I was on the fence about this because I don't like the idea of the PvE stuff to be obtainable only via purchase but then I thought, "Surely they will have a vendor or something else that makes it so you can only obtain a card a certain way. What's the difference between it being via a booster pack that costs gold from a vendor or a random chance in a dungeon or by choosing not to kill someone instead of killing them in a dungeon?"

YourOpponent
06-25-2013, 03:46 PM
I would be fine wit it under one of two ways.

1.) PvP packs can be traded to an NPC for a PvE pack (which has no more than 75% of the PvE packs). Also this way can't have trading a PvE pack for a PvP pack to the NPC...that way it gives players a way to get started on doing PvE if they only do PvP before.

2.) PvE packs are dropped from bosses or as a chance from PvP booster pack chests...with this way being however The Powers That Be decide.

Punk
06-25-2013, 03:59 PM
@ posts 21 and 22:

What if they cost Gold instead of Plat and had to be purchased from NPCs you find in the content? (Note, I don't care that much if they have PvE boosters or not. I'm just trying to help the discussion.) I agree they should avoid PvE boosters that cost Plat.

This could be cool. I dig it.

sckolar
06-25-2013, 04:31 PM
I was on the fence about this because I don't like the idea of the PvE stuff to be obtainable only via purchase but then I thought, "Surely they will have a vendor or something else that makes it so you can only obtain a card a certain way. What's the difference between it being via a booster pack that costs gold from a vendor or a random chance in a dungeon or by choosing not to kill someone instead of killing them in a dungeon?"

Ooooh. I see. Well, that is true, but booster packs would also earn Crypto money, where using in-game currency would make them less. I see what you mean though.

nandus
06-25-2013, 04:43 PM
@ posts 21 and 22:

What if they cost Gold instead of Plat and had to be purchased from NPCs you find in the content? (Note, I don't care that much if they have PvE boosters or not. I'm just trying to help the discussion.) I agree they should avoid PvE boosters that cost Plat.

That would work. It would work as a random box sold by a vendor in MMORPG, only in this case it would have cards instead of items. However, unless CZE heavily controls card distribution, I can see how this could get out of hand quickly; investing 1000g to get something worth 10x times that would "break" the game quite quickly. In this case I would go for the safest bet, which would be to have different classes of boxes(boosters in this case), with the corresponding increasing price; according to the power level the cards that can exist within them.

facade
06-25-2013, 04:48 PM
Make all equipment available to everyone? Make it so the cards opened have the equipment already equipped. Don't players already get all the champions at their disposal in PvP limited?

Small clarification regarding the equipment, the 6 pieces of equipment are attached to the champion.

I concede the point on equipment, I suppose all the equipment can be given to you in a draft, but the PvE champions and mercenaries point still stands. PvE champions are a whole lot more complex than the PvP champions. As a comparison:
PvP champions: http://hextcg.com/pvp-champions-underworld/
Tentative example of PvE champions: http://hextcg.com/creating-and-gearing-up-your-character/




That's definitely an opinion. I'd like to be able to draft PvE cards, I think it'd be fun and crazy. They could also pick out the cards in PvE that are best suited for limited play.

An opinion, granted. But so is your's about it being "fun and crazy" Regardless, making a draft format is more than just selecting "suitable cards".

To prevent limited play events from become stale too quickly, time must be spent having well designed synergies at common and uncommon to help keep the draft format interesting. After a quick perusal, this article from MtG (http://wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/248) discusses some of the subtleties of creating a draft environment using examples from a recent MtG set.

You may say "Who cares? I want to draft PvE packs anyway!" Well the small problem with that is you need at least seven other people to also draft with you. If the PvE draft format is lackluster, than getting those people to join you might be a little difficult.

CZE is already creating 3 (possibly 4) balanced limited environments a year with each set they release. I doubt they have the manpower to double the number of draftable formats by making both PvE and PvP draftable.



I'm just curious for anyone that is against boosters to tell me if they are for or against single card purchases from vendors. If you're for single card purchases from vendors then why not a booster at a discounted price guaranteeing a rare+ card? Does that argument have legs to stand on? That if they sell 1 card at a vendor, why not an entire booster pack?

I agree that there is nothing wrong with buying a random set of cards from a vendor, but there is no need for it to be a 'booster pack'.

Aside from the potential savings in getting an expensive card randomly for cheap, the only other benefit to actual booster packs is being able to use them in Limited environments, and I've already expressed my views on why that is inadvisable above.

An alternative: you can get the savings in buying random cards without the need for booster packs. A vendor can have any number of sizes with different guaranteed rarity distributions. Maybe a super bargain set of 50 random commons. Maybe a set of 5 where each card is uncommon or better.

As such, actual booster packs of 15 cards are completely unnecessary from a PvE standpoint.

ConnorJS
06-25-2013, 05:10 PM
I think that expensive gold purchased packs are a good idea :).

majin
06-25-2013, 05:25 PM
What if the PvE pack cost was Gold, not Plat?

You could even have different factions sell packs from different pools of cards to fit the roleplay aspect of the game. It also functions as a gold sink.

if it will be sold for gold, i'm all up for it. as long as the content will be VERY random. it can be very rewarding or make you regret buying it.

That way, it can be a money sink or a lottery win

Aradon
06-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Dunno. I still don't like the idea of making drops available to people just for spending money. It's unavoidable with the AH, but I don't see why we need a redundant system that offers a similar problem (people buying cards that other people had to raid for).

On the other hand, if it nets CZE money, it doesn't really do much damage beyond cheapening the PvE experience a bit, and even then only for people who like to brag about their collection. /shrug.

OutlandishMatt
06-25-2013, 07:50 PM
@facade I know little about draft construction when building a set but I have played limited Magic for over 10 years and think they could easily make a limited set of maybe 200 cards out of their PvE content. I think I read they have 350 PvE cards made? I have to believe they have at least 200 suitable cards.

Aradon
06-25-2013, 08:25 PM
We don't really know enough about the PvE set to say whether it could be turned into a good draft environment. You could almost assuredly make some sort of draft environment out of it, but if you don't start out with that intention when building the pieces, it probably won't be very good to draft.

The main pillars for good draft sets:
- General power balance between the colors
- Even distribution of colors, rarities, and methodical mana costs (at least for troops; actions don't need a curve so much)
- Intentional synergies in reliable quantities
- Useful to have some archetypes/strategies accommodated so that players can assemble specific decks if they are paying attention
- Careful quantities of removal and answers spread throughout the colors

If you have these, players will typically be able to assemble reasonable decks. If you miss some of these, their decks will regularly have significant construction problems, such as poor curves, no answers, not enough creatures, or just in general being lackluster and without direction, as well as some decks simply being the best deck to draft and winning every time (such as whichever color has the best removal, or the most playables). This would happen at no fault to the player, since they would be unable to find the cards they need to solve those problems.

I could see the PvE cards being unbalanced in terms of rarity or color, since it's story driven and doesn't need to be balanced so carefully, but like I said before, we couldn't say until we see more of the set. I think the biggest problem it'll face is having enough synergy and deckbuilding threads. The cards are often wonky or over-the-top, and we don't know if there'll be any simple lines of deckbuilding to pick up on. It would be like if you were drafting Lorwyn, but the set didn't have its tribal synergy. That set was all about building the Goblin/Faerie/Giant/Kithkin/Treefolk deck of your dreams. You could deviate from those strategies if you wanted, but at the very least, it was a starting point that should be readily available.

keldrin
06-25-2013, 09:41 PM
the boosters will HAVE to have different cards than available in PVE. The cards and equipment, is the reward motivation for doing the PVE. If I buy some packs, and find the important chase cads I wanted from a certain dungeon, I may have a hard time motivating myself to actually go through said dungeon (barring it opening a raid).
Honestly, I will be collecting PVP cards, as filler cards in PVE. So, filler PVE packs will be unnecessary.

Callahan420
06-25-2013, 10:15 PM
Nay!
You already have a chance to get PVE stuff through the boosters already. Through the treasure chest inside the packs anyway.
Source:
http://www.gamespot.com/e3/hex-shards-of-fate-6410011/ Skip to 29:45

Plus the many other things that have been mentioned in this thread already.

AstaSyneri
06-26-2013, 12:50 AM
Another Nah here. I want to play PvE with my PvP booster cards and then earn the PvE cards in those dungeons to gradually change/improve my decks. And hopefully the PvE cards will remain secret until some player finds and spoils them.

Xenavire
06-26-2013, 05:18 AM
I had an idea - grey packs. Unplayable cards except in a special format, and all cards are grey quality PvE dungeon and boss cards - a new and seperate collection, purely for fun (the cards would be illegal in PvE and PvP) and bought with gold - this way you could make it an effective gold sink, and by adding them to the factions tied to the dungeons (vendors selling packs inside the dungeon perhaps?) you could make for a new and interesting way to collect cards.

They could almost become LCG style, where you buy playsets of everything for gold (since they dont matter for anything except friendly PvP).

I could even live with it being for real money if it is specifically stated they are promotional and illegal in all formats.

RobHaven
06-26-2013, 07:58 AM
What if the PvE pack cost was Gold... It also functions as a gold sink.
I had mentioned this in the "we need goldsinks" thread. To the "why buy boosters when we have an AH?" argument: the AH will only take a small cut of your gold per transaction, but buying a booster removes the total amount.


As long as people can't just buy up pve cards direct from CZE in any quantity they want.

Also, if you're okay with the idea of a vendor selling you a card for gold, why not a booster?
Right. Already confirmed that vendors will offer cards. I would be down for only having vendor-available cards in the boosters. And as someone (Yoss?) said, you could make the booster faction specific to avoid lore and/or rep requirement issues.

If you're for single card purchases from vendors then why not a booster at a discounted price guaranteeing a rare+ card?
As stated, only if that card can already be purchased, and only if you meet the purchasing requirements. If no rares are vendor-sold, then no rares in packs. Absolutely nothing that is drop-only should be in boosters.


I guess I should never have made it costs real money because people are against that even though people are for buying plat and using plat to buy gold and then using that gold to buy cards.
PvE has been repeatedly stated as 100% free. I don't like any option to make a direct platinum purchase of PvE cards. If you want to jump through the conversion hoops to pay for your PvE cards, I can't stop you...but I don't like the idea of CZE giving it their blessing.


I'd like to be able to draft PvE cards...
I believe they already said one of the dungeons features a draft, didn't they? I thought that was confirmed, but my memory is about as reliable as a bucket with no bottom.

Diesbudt
06-26-2013, 09:54 AM
I believe they already said one of the dungeons features a draft, didn't they? I thought that was confirmed, but my memory is about as reliable as a bucket with no bottom.

I believe they said this too. A dungeon that mimics a draft. To help people learn how to draft and what it is.

RobHaven
06-26-2013, 11:38 AM
Depending on how they execute this dungeon, it's very possible that PvE boosters already exist.

OutlandishMatt
06-27-2013, 05:35 AM
As stated, only if that card can already be purchased, and only if you meet the purchasing requirements. If no rares are vendor-sold, then no rares in packs. Absolutely nothing that is drop-only should be in boosters.

Why? Do vendors in MMOs always sell things you can get elsewhere? No. The majority of the time vendors sell unique gear (cards) for in-game currency, sometimes after meeting a certain requirement such as rep.


I believe they said this too. A dungeon that mimics a draft. To help people learn how to draft and what it is.

They said they like that idea but as far as I know they will not have one at launch.

RobHaven
06-27-2013, 06:05 AM
As stated, only if that card can already be purchased, and only if you meet the purchasing requirements. If no rares are vendor-sold, then no rares in packs. Absolutely nothing that is drop-only should be in boosters.

Why? Do vendors in MMOs always sell things you can get elsewhere? No. The majority of the time vendors sell unique gear (cards) for in-game currency, sometimes after meeting a certain requirement such as rep.

I'm a little confused by what you're saying. Or more accurately, I don't get why you wrote that as a commentary on what I had said. I was saying that I only want boosters to contain cards you can find on a vendor. Basically: I only want cards you can buy through boosters to be cards you can already buy anyway. I don't want boosters to be a viable (if not more efficient) means of bypassing dungeon farming.
I'm not saying vendor cards can't be unique, and I actually hope they do have some cards that can only be acquired from certain vendors in a certain manner.

OutlandishMatt
06-27-2013, 06:45 AM
I'm a little confused by what you're saying. Or more accurately, I don't get why you wrote that as a commentary on what I had said.

Because apparently I am dyslexic? I read it as if it said only drop only should be in there. But I think it should be a mixture since it's a booster pack. Maybe 1/3 of the cards could be acquired via PvE content?

But it does work a little with what you are saying, why can't booster packs have unique cards? Why do they have to be obtainable elsewhere if it's dealing with just in-game currency?

RobHaven
06-27-2013, 07:00 AM
They shouldn't have to be cards that you can acquire elsewhere, but I thought making them vendored cards would prevent people from buying their decks instead of working for them. I'm completely okay with booster exclusives - I even think that's an awesome idea - but I don't want boosters containing cards that are otherwise only found as drops.

Thinking more on booster exclusive cards, I'm really starting to love it. If the odds aren't great to acquire one, this could really increase the value of boosters as a gold sink. And anything that's a good (but not balance-disrupting) gold sink is a-ok in my book.

OutlandishMatt
06-27-2013, 07:46 AM
Thinking more on booster exclusive cards, I'm really starting to love it.

Yes, the more I have thought about it the more I love PvE booster packs as being a gold sink. And if they make it have unique cards only obtainable via boosters then that's trade bait and could be worth some serious gold or even platinum.

They could then make PvE exclusive Primal Packs and PvE exclusive treasure chests.

Ju66ernaut
06-27-2013, 08:48 AM
Nah, I like the idea of earning PvE cards through progression.

OutlandishMatt
06-27-2013, 12:36 PM
You still earn cards through progression but there will be vendors that sell individual unique cards just like most MMOs that sell unique gear. This is just a larger, packaged version with more collectible ways. This way makes it so you can have collectibility from vendors.

The TCG aspect gets lost over time if everyone knows they can run Y dungeon for X card. Why would I bother spending gold for a card when I know I can run a dungeon and get it? PvE needs some randomness in it and I think PvE boosters bring that.

Stok3d
06-27-2013, 01:02 PM
Sorry, no from me. I want PVE to be purely Free-to-Play. That experience needs to be as solid as possible to bring in the masses everyone is looking for.

RobHaven
06-28-2013, 05:44 AM
Sorry, no from me. I want PVE to be purely Free-to-Play. That experience needs to be as solid as possible to bring in the masses everyone is looking for.

I don't really get why a response like this is still coming in. I can only assume the entire thread wasn't read. I can't really blame you as it's 6+ pages of little progress. That being said, I thought it became pretty clear that no one was still looking for platinum to be involved; all transactions would be made in gold (without exception).

OutlandishMatt
06-28-2013, 07:57 AM
I even went as far as to update my first post. I didn't want to erase the original post so people could see why they were posting in the first four pages.

Justinkp
06-28-2013, 08:13 AM
Its funny, after just reading the title I thought, "maybe if they sell for gold". We'll have to know more about how PVE works to know how viable this is. It could be that most PVE cards are designed to be gotten through progression and it could conceivably screw up quest chains and the like.

I also understand people not wanting things that are drop only in the packs. If you worked hard for a card and someone else just spent X gold and got the same thing it would detract from the accomplishment.

It may be best to implement this after launch with cards designed especially for boosters. More gold sinks are always good. And if someone wanted to spend plat or real money to dive right into PVE I'm sure the secondary market will make that possible (actually you should just be able to use the AH to buy gold for plat I would think).

malloc31
06-28-2013, 09:27 AM
Nah.

I would rather they make cards drop often in PVE, so you can get enough to make your deck just by PVEing. And then use the AH to round out your deck. There should be no need to grind to just buy more boosters. (you might as well grind for more cards, sell more cards on AH and buy more on AH and be guaranteed to get the ones you want.)

Stok3d
06-28-2013, 11:11 AM
I don't really get why a response like this is still coming in. I can only assume the entire thread wasn't read. I can't really blame you as it's 6+ pages of little progress. That being said, I thought it became pretty clear that no one was still looking for platinum to be involved; all transactions would be made in gold (without exception).

You're right, I only read the first post. With taking platinum out of the equation, I still am not too excited for PVE packs. If ppl want to draft, then they will need to use PvP and use platinum. I don't believe it a wise idea to allow it in the f2p structure.

RobHaven
06-28-2013, 11:49 AM
The proposed use - I believe - wasn't really for a draft, but more for just use in already-implemented PvE content. They're used to supplement your existing PvE decks.

Yoss
06-28-2013, 11:53 AM
...and they'd be a harder gold sink than the AH. With the AH, only a small % leaves the economy; with NPC vendors 100% leaves. (This is a repeat from earlier in the thread.)

MasterOfWhispers
06-28-2013, 02:52 PM
Neighhhhhh.

Wolfe
06-28-2013, 03:03 PM
One of my ongoing concerns has been how Cryptozoic will manage to make the PVE side worth investing in over the long term. It's a big part of what makes Hex awesome, and the PVE content scheduled for the first year looks incredible. It helps bring in new players, gives a challenge for those who like PVE, and gives PVPers a way to stay engaged with the game when they've exhausted their drafting budget for the month.

But it doesn't make any money, per se. It's difficult and time consuming designing and testing new cards and encounters. Realistically, I'm not sure how those of us who are excited about PVE can expect Cryptozoic to keep coming out with dozens of fresh, fun encounters and mechanics year after year if there is no income on the PVE side. I know they love the game, and it's an important part of the game - they'll keep supporting PVE to some extent either way. But I don't want PVE to simply be carried along for the ride. I want PVE to be another driving engine of the game. I want big teams of really smart designers and devs putting together sweet new content.

With that in mind, I think PVE boosters are a reasonable compromise. PVE is "all cards", not "PVE exclusive cards". I find it hard to believe that most PVE decks won't include a healthy dose of PVP cards. There are surely some awesome combinations that can be built with cards from both pools. I think "PVE" boosters could easily include cards from both. That would help water down some of the concerns about easy access to dungeon drops. That would also make it more fun to draft.

Drafting PVP is not only fun, but helps you build your constructed decks. Why not the same thing in PVE? No, it wouldn't be as balanced, and it wouldn't be as polished. Sometimes there would be a zany combo that you couldn't stop. But if you want pro, go pro. If you want some zany fun building your PVE collection, this opens some doors. You could not only draft to fight other players, but you could draft to compete for PVE content. Imagine tournaments where you draft and are awarded prizes based on how far you can progress through a dungeon relative to the other players? Or a month-long challenge for the team who can beat a raid encounter using decks constructed from a 18 pack team buy-in?

I honestly don't LOVE the idea of PVE boosters, but it gives us a way to appease the angry bean counters and funnel some money into getting us fresh and awesome free-to-play content even 5+ years from now. So yeah, +1 from me.

majin
06-28-2013, 03:51 PM
One of my ongoing concerns has been how Cryptozoic will manage to make the PVE side worth investing in over the long term. It's a big part of what makes Hex awesome, and the PVE content scheduled for the first year looks incredible. It helps bring in new players, gives a challenge for those who like PVE, and gives PVPers a way to stay engaged with the game when they've exhausted their drafting budget for the month.

But it doesn't make any money, per se. It's difficult and time consuming designing and testing new cards and encounters. Realistically, I'm not sure how those of us who are excited about PVE can expect Cryptozoic to keep coming out with dozens of fresh, fun encounters and mechanics year after year if there is no income on the PVE side. I know they love the game, and it's an important part of the game - they'll keep supporting PVE to some extent either way. But I don't want PVE to simply be carried along for the ride. I want PVE to be another driving engine of the game. I want big teams of really smart designers and devs putting together sweet new content.

With that in mind, I think PVE boosters are a reasonable compromise. PVE is "all cards", not "PVE exclusive cards". I find it hard to believe that most PVE decks won't include a healthy dose of PVP cards. There are surely some awesome combinations that can be built with cards from both pools. I think "PVE" boosters could easily include cards from both. That would help water down some of the concerns about easy access to dungeon drops. That would also make it more fun to draft.

Drafting PVP is not only fun, but helps you build your constructed decks. Why not the same thing in PVE? No, it wouldn't be as balanced, and it wouldn't be as polished. Sometimes there would be a zany combo that you couldn't stop. But if you want pro, go pro. If you want some zany fun building your PVE collection, this opens some doors. You could not only draft to fight other players, but you could draft to compete for PVE content. Imagine tournaments where you draft and are awarded prizes based on how far you can progress through a dungeon relative to the other players? Or a month-long challenge for the team who can beat a raid encounter using decks constructed from a 18 pack team buy-in?

I honestly don't LOVE the idea of PVE boosters, but it gives us a way to appease the angry bean counters and funnel some money into getting us fresh and awesome free-to-play content even 5+ years from now. So yeah, +1 from me.

great first post :)

mmimzie
06-29-2013, 01:06 AM
Only read OP and scimmed last page to make sure it was the same general topic.

I really dont think pve packs are a good idea. PVE cards are like equipment you'd get from raids or dungeons in other games.They should be earned and not purchased. However, i dont think they will help keep pve to free to play as i'm sure PVP cards will still have a decent relevance in PVE and if those PVP cards are also good in PVP they will come with a heavy price tag, a very heavy one if you want to pay gold.