PDA

View Full Version : Broken PVE cards. Will they be Nerfed or Banned?



keldrin
06-25-2013, 09:49 PM
I was reading in another thread, where the general consensus was that CZE would be likely ban a broken card in PVP as opposed to nerfing it.
So, the question is, will a broken card that upsets game balance in PVE be banned? Nerfed? or Ignored?
To me, if a certain combination becomes broken, it might lead to the majority of players playing similar decks in PVE to win. Winning is great for a little while. But variety and having to change up your strategy is a lot of what will keep me interested.
Which brings us to question 2. Said PVP card is broken, and gets banned from PVP play. Will that card still be available to play in PVE? If a card is broken enough to be banned from PVE and PVP play, I would hope they would nerf it, rather than making it a useless conversation piece in your collection. (like some magic the gathering cards became)
I would like to hear both, officialish responses, and opinions on this please.

Gwaer
06-25-2013, 09:52 PM
In that situation they'd more likely introduce dungeons and raids that trivialize those combinations, at this juncture I doubt they have plans to ban or nerf pve cards. Just make content harder and incompatible with op cards.

Xintia
06-25-2013, 10:04 PM
I don't see a reason to ever BAN anything from PvE play. Heck we've already seen some pretty wild potential combinations in PvE based on the cards and equipment that has been revealed. That said, in the event that something was discovered that utterly trivialized PvE content, I could see CZE maybe going the route of the "restricted list," limiting the offending card to a single copy per deck, or as Gwaer suggested, changing the *content* to adjust to the card, rather than changing the card itself. I suppose you could argue this is just a "nerf" of a different flavor, but at least it would keep the offending card the same.

Khazrakh
06-25-2013, 10:11 PM
I don't see a reason to ever BAN anything from PvE play. Heck we've already seen some pretty wild potential combinations in PvE based on the cards and equipment that has been revealed. That said, in the event that something was discovered that utterly trivialized PvE content, I could see CZE maybe going the route of the "restricted list," limiting the offending card to a single copy per deck, or as Gwaer suggested, changing the *content* to adjust to the card, rather than changing the card itself. I suppose you could argue this is just a "nerf" of a different flavor, but at least it would keep the offending card the same.

Furthermore there will be hard mode/heroic/what ever you call them dungeons where you'll have to run a highlander (max 1 copy of each non bacis ressource you play) deck. This will break any broken combo ;)

keldrin
06-25-2013, 10:11 PM
I had considered that. But having to plan to plan the decks of all future raids and dungeons to counter a specific broken combination has the potential to effect variety in the play of future bosses. Not to mention, as the game evolves, the number of majorly broken cards/combos will increase. At some point, it may come down to learning what the new bosses are protecting against, and using the broken strategy that works on them.
Also, if you consider there being value attached to rare/legendary drops from raids/dungeons. Then a broken card/combo, that allows easy wins in these earlier dungeons and raids will make the value of said treasures drop significantly. I suppose it would be possible to update the earlier dungeons and raids to deal with said problem.
And if a broken combination or card gets a lot of use to attain these previously hard to get drops, would that potentially be considered using a exploit? Maybe not if you got them for personal use, but what if you ran those dungeons/bosses multiple times and dropped the stuff onto the AH, or even traded them, possibly trying to take advantage of some people not knowing that drop ha suddenly become relatively easy to get.

keldrin
06-25-2013, 10:12 PM
I like the restricting idea to limit the potential damage the combo can do.
Then it might be able to win the match for you, but you couldn't count on it.

Gwaer
06-25-2013, 10:26 PM
The hard modes are all highlander. So if you want a challenge play in that mode, if you want a facebashing good time, do normal. That's kind of the idea I think.

Mr.Funsocks
06-25-2013, 11:44 PM
They also can set whatever requirements they want for PvE content. So they may have new PvE content use the latest PvE sets instead of legacy for certain dungeons, or restrict a certain card in a certain dungeon, or the like.

Fireblast
06-26-2013, 02:19 AM
Since when is demolishing the AI a problem?

If you want long term challenge you head to PvP.

PvE is always gonna be hard until you find the right deck that wins.
Challenging repeatability in PvE means that the encounter is very RANDOM, not that it's very HARD...

~

TheWrathofShane
06-26-2013, 03:39 AM
I have a feeling they will do indirect nerfs. For example the current strongest card in the game is obviously Spectral Lotus. Cantripping black lotus with a wheel of fortune stapled on for equipment.

For example, in a raid or dungeon it could have a passive for the enemy which says, "Whenever an opponent draws a card and its not their first draw this turn, you may draw a card for each one."

Icepick
06-26-2013, 03:46 AM
Considering how insanely powerful some of the potential combinations in PvE are already, a card would have to be catastrophically powerful in order to warrant any kind of nerf or ban. If it's something utterly ridiculous like instantly winning the game on the first turn or something, I suspect they would step in, but otherwise I suspect they'll just leave things be.

Khazrakh
06-26-2013, 04:11 AM
You can literally break any combo by tuning the rules slightly.

"You can't play more then one card per turn"
"Whenever you draw a card you lose 1 life"
"Your creatures can't attack"
"Champions can't be the target of spells or abilites"

A lot of the higher tier dungeons will have rules like the examples above and those are just random ideas. You'll be able to play some insane combos in every dungeon, but I just don't see a problem with that. It's PvE after all - higher level PvE will be about learning what the opponent can do and build a deck to counter it.

ConnorJS
06-26-2013, 04:27 AM
The hard modes are all highlander. So if you want a challenge play in that mode, if you want a facebashing good time, do normal. That's kind of the idea I think.

Yeah I agree with this, no need to nerf or ban any PvE, I guess if they created a card so broken it was making hard modes easy then they could nerf it?

Unhurtable
06-26-2013, 04:45 AM
Yeah I agree with this, no need to nerf or ban any PvE, I guess if they created a card so broken it was making hard modes easy then they could nerf it?

Or they could buff those hard modes specifically so that said card becomes very punishing to play. I'm not saying "if you play Spectral Lotus, it has no effect", I'm saying maybe give them a mechanic that limits the player to only draw 1 card per turn?
The problem there is that much more is affected, but I'd rather have most fights become much harder in that case rather than them being easy with just 1 card.

ZeroCool
06-26-2013, 04:47 AM
Once a card that is OP'd is noticed, I'm sure CZE will just create a dungeon or a raid that counters whatever effect the OP card does.

snarvid
06-26-2013, 04:52 AM
I would imagine more general rule shifts, as others in this thread, rather than PvE card nerfs. I would disagree that these constitute nerfs or indicate that the original PvE card power levels were a mistake, though. Rather, these rule shifts are the entire point of the PvE game - a psuedo-puzzle mode that requires that you work within the strictures of ever-changing restrictions to overcome increasingly difficult challenges. You won't be able to rely on a single favorite card or single favorite combo to overcome PvE because of these restrictions, thereby forcing/encouraging/allowing you to see the best applications of a large portion of the card set. This, in turn, provides training in the kind of thinking that will help with both drafting and constructed play.

Fireblast
06-26-2013, 07:58 AM
The goal of the PvE is to be beatable and farmable.

Also a combo is broken only if it's very consistant, and it's more often cause of tutors than combo cards themselves :)

~

Vorpal
06-26-2013, 10:51 AM
They should be nerfed.

A card banned from pvp can be used in pve.

A pve card banned from pve can't be used anywhere and thus may as well be removed from the game.

Lafoote
06-26-2013, 12:33 PM
They're all broken, that's why they're PVE only.

majin
06-26-2013, 12:44 PM
and there will be battles (forgot what it's called but i think it's not the arena) where you are rewarded by your performance (insane damage, maybe lots of life gain, etc) which is why the PvE cards are like this

Cory and the team already acknowledge this and they say that they are okay with broken cards but not degenerate cards for PvE. they really want us to go all out on PvE and probably on the wild west pvp format

keldrin
06-26-2013, 02:07 PM
The main thing is that there is some kind of challenge in each raid/dungeon. And we don't rely on one skeletal key type setup to get through all of them. The lotus, being single use, is somewhat self limiting. In that, few will have enough to do the dungeons/raids over and over again using that same card to win. Most that have it will be limited to one or 2 per day.

Aradon
06-26-2013, 02:30 PM
Last I heard, they explicitly said they will never ban cards in PvE. They did mention set rotation, but it was unclear whether or not that referred to PvE cards as well. If they ban PvP cards, the bans will be format specific, and should not extend to PvE.

The heroic mode singleton will smash most combo decks, but not answer overpowered cards. Which should be enough to keep those fights fair. Non-singleton modes will have to feature passive abilities that restrict your gameplay. I'd hate to see most raid bosses end up with a typical list that basically says, "No extra draws, 1 damage when you play a spell, void cards that go to your graveyard," just to shut down every combo deck that'll tear it apart.

Mr.Funsocks
06-26-2013, 02:39 PM
Keep in mind they could also do an easy, normal, and hard mode. In normal mode, where you get the standard loot table, they can just have a few choice rules to deal with absurdly overpowered combos, or even a ban list. Then easy mode you can do whatever you want, but your loot table is lower. With how they're structuring the PvE content, they literally can do anything they want.

Thrawn
06-27-2013, 10:50 AM
it might lead to the majority of players playing similar decks in PVE to win. Winning is great for a little while. But variety and having to change up your strategy is a lot of what will keep me interested.

This will likely happen anyways. Once people learn what they are playing against in a dungeon/raid it won't be long before "optimal" deck lists will be available for doing that dungeon. It's probably unavailable just like any other game where you find "optimal" item and skill builds. Sure it doesn't stop you for doing your own thing and trying new things, but you are just making it harder on yourself then.

loopholist3
06-27-2013, 12:30 PM
What about Keep Defence. If there are broken combos in PvE, keep defence becomes pointless. Either its so hard that it is just a waste of money for the attacker, or it is so easy that is a waste of money for the defender.

nearlysober
06-27-2013, 12:37 PM
Dont think it'll be too much of an issue in PvE. Not all PvE encounters will be your standard "do damage to the boss", like the 1 raid they previewed where it only mattered how many times you hit a raid boss, not how much damage you did to him. There will be other puzzle type content too.

But mostly, if something is too OP and it's making dungeons no fun... just don't use it. Keep it in your back pocket knowing you can pull it out if you're really ever stuck on a dungeon, but you have the option in PvE of just not using it... whereas in PvP you are compelled to always max out your efficiency.

Stok3d
06-27-2013, 01:03 PM
The hard modes are all highlander. So if you want a challenge play in that mode, if you want a facebashing good time, do normal. That's kind of the idea I think.

this

arastor
06-27-2013, 02:11 PM
Did they ever say that all hard modes were highlander? I thought that was just given as an example of a hard mode.

KaosSoul
06-27-2013, 02:52 PM
from what i understand Normal is Hard more, Hard mode is Epic highland mode, or so Corry seems to be implying =p

keldrin
06-28-2013, 12:48 AM
What about Keep Defence. If there are broken combos in PvE, keep defence becomes pointless. Either its so hard that it is just a waste of money for the attacker, or it is so easy that is a waste of money for the defender.

That's a good point. And I would think that would have to be taken into consideration. Also, since it's been mentioned, in a dungeon, you kind of figure out the best deck to run against that dungeon to maximize your chance of beating it.
Is that same scenario applying to keeps? Learn the keep deck, and construct a deck to maximize your wins against it?

majin
06-28-2013, 04:38 AM
What about Keep Defence. If there are broken combos in PvE, keep defence becomes pointless. Either its so hard that it is just a waste of money for the attacker, or it is so easy that is a waste of money for the defender.

They will definitely consider the 'broken' PvE cards on keep defense.

We don't have any details yet about this so it's too early to worry about it. Once we have the card list and the dungeon features / rules and the Keep Defense guidelines / info, then we can start worrying about this if we found some combo that will break the keep defense

CZE already did a great job at balancing PvP based on their statements and they have demonstrated this on their other games like WoW TCG. if they can balance PvP, I am sure they can create a good way to make sure that the keep defense and dungeons will still be enjoyable and challenging even with all the broken PvE cards as they are the ones who created those broken cards

majin
06-28-2013, 04:39 AM
from what i understand Normal is Hard more, Hard mode is Epic highland mode, or so Corry seems to be implying =p

this is also what i got from the videos, there will only be 2 modes, the normal mode and the highlander mode (no cards can have a duplicate on the deck)

Shadowelf
06-28-2013, 05:14 AM
Judging by their previous (quality) work i think that cze has what it takes to provide a balanced game both in pvp and pve; what i've seen so far in pvp seems well thought of, and i don't think there will be a problem. Pve seems bonkers atm, but i think only because we don't know how the pve encounters will unfold, or what other mechanics there will be in place.

GreyGriffin
06-28-2013, 03:52 PM
I think people are making a pretty grave error by making three arguments that I'll address specifically.

1. It's PvE so it won't matter.
This argument has more than a handful of flaws. First, CZE has expressed on many occasions that they want PvE to be a viable part of the gold and platinum economy. The presence of content-breaking card combos obviates that content. Objective based or not, puzzle based or not, the ability to do something like "go infinite" trivializes the bulk of the content which will presumably be based on the core game mechanics. This means that loot will become trivial, or at least a grind, once these combos become public, ruining the value of this loot.

2. PvE will routinely use paradigm breaking mechanics.

Not every dungeon encounter can clear the board and blow away the basic game. Not only is that not practical from a development standpoint, it's not fun from a player standpoint. While changing the rules is fun, it is only really fun if it is a change. If you have to learn the rules from the ground up every time you play, then you may as well play a different game every time. As a player, you are punished for building effective decks, your deck has no sense of development and evolution, and the skills you learn in PvE aren't transferrable to PvP, which is another stated goal.

Furthermore, directed rules towards specific cards, especially in a sweeping fashion (which would be necessary if a PvE card is game breaking) is essentially banning that card in PvE.

3. Game Breaking Combos reward good deck building.

Most of the arguments that apply to #1 would apply here, but I think this one deserves special mention for a specific reason. Game breaking combos will inevitably involve mechanics that will be phased out by block. Presumably old errors would hopefully not be repeated by the new cards, and so you run into a direct boundary caused by rarity. What if PvE is balanced and predicated based on cards that no longer are in circulation? You can't rely on player economy to produce these cards, especially if you experience significant population growth in comparison to the "first run" of the broken card/cards.

Remember gearscore? Remember how bad that was? Imagine a Gear Check that you have to drop $100 of real money to be raid-ready? Not feasible.

All of these factors are why I believe Errata is an important tool that should be used to maintain game balance.

Corpselocker
06-28-2013, 04:45 PM
Mmm, I just had the strong desire for PvP cards only dungeon.

Armies
06-28-2013, 08:02 PM
but then it wouldn't be free to play pve content. You could always challenge yourself to only do dungeons with pvp cards I suppose.

Kalius
06-28-2013, 09:40 PM
Lets use MtG as an example. PVE is essentially casual magic(no banned list).

Who here remembers Flash-Hulk? Yeah. I expect similar stupid combos to pop up.

and CZE will probably just go "well that's tricky"

GreyGriffin
06-28-2013, 10:28 PM
Lets use MtG as an example. PVE is essentially casual magic(no banned list).

Who here remembers Flash-Hulk? Yeah. I expect similar stupid combos to pop up.

and CZE will probably just go "well that's tricky"

Is there PvE in MtG that interacts with a persistent economy, or even PvE in an Unlimited format? Or multiplayer PvE, for that matter?

Kalius
06-29-2013, 02:12 AM
Is there PvE in MtG that interacts with a persistent economy, or even PvE in an Unlimited format? Or multiplayer PvE, for that matter?

I was merely stating that PVE in hex is the equivalent of casual play in MtG, where really anything goes.

keldrin
06-29-2013, 03:08 AM
I backed the game for the PVE content primarily. So, there being some value to the rewards I work (if you call playing a fun game work) for. It's part of the fun.
There has to be a reasonable amount of checks and balances, to keep PVE fun and worthwhile.

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 07:02 AM
Is there PvE in MtG that interacts with a persistent economy, or even PvE in an Unlimited format? Or multiplayer PvE, for that matter?


I was merely stating that PVE in hex is the equivalent of casual play in MtG, where really anything goes.

With the assumption that casual mtg is like hex's pve under consideration, yes the prices in mtg are affected by the casual market. There are lot of cards that are worthless in mtg competitive play, but are still expensive due to the fact that the casual crowd loves them.

Kalius
06-29-2013, 11:42 AM
With the assumption that casual mtg is like hex's pve under consideration, yes the prices in mtg are affected by the casual market. There are lot of cards that are worthless in mtg competitive play, but are still expensive due to the fact that the casual crowd loves them.

exactly. and with it being casual, just because there's a broken combo(see the reference to Flash-Hulk), doesn't mean you're forced to play it.

Even when people find broken combos in hex PVE, and they will find them, there's nothing forcing you to use them to progress. So really there's no reason to ban/nerf cards for PVE.

GreyGriffin
06-29-2013, 01:00 PM
With the assumption that casual mtg is like hex's pve under consideration, yes the prices in mtg are affected by the casual market. There are lot of cards that are worthless in mtg competitive play, but are still expensive due to the fact that the casual crowd loves them.

I think you're not putting all the jigsaw pieces together so let me take it step by step.

1. Population of Hex is 50,000
2. OP PvE Combo emerges, trivializing content. All PvE players get insane PvE combo in order to wipe content. # of combos in circulation is 50,000
3. New block of cards emerges, obsoleting OP Combo #1, meaning no more will enter circulation.
4. Population of hex is 500,000
5. 10% of the population roflstomps PvE content (the 50,000 combos in circulation), getting wealth beyond imagining. This population gets super rich before legendary loot from their roflstomp trickles down into the economy, further trivializing content.
6. Community stratifies, high end PvPers are required to have OP combo to compete, creating a significant real money gap between Haves and Have-Nots. ("OP Combo +Achievement or no party").

Armies
06-29-2013, 03:48 PM
doubt they will retire pve content so everyone can probably have the op pve combo of which you speak.

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 04:39 PM
I think you're not putting all the jigsaw pieces together so let me take it step by step.

1. Population of Hex is 50,000
2. OP PvE Combo emerges, trivializing content. All PvE players get insane PvE combo in order to wipe content. # of combos in circulation is 50,000
3. New block of cards emerges, obsoleting OP Combo #1, meaning no more will enter circulation.
4. Population of hex is 500,000
5. 10% of the population roflstomps PvE content (the 50,000 combos in circulation), getting wealth beyond imagining. This population gets super rich before legendary loot from their roflstomp trickles down into the economy, further trivializing content.
6. Community stratifies, high end PvPers are required to have OP combo to compete, creating a significant real money gap between Haves and Have-Nots. ("OP Combo +Achievement or no party").

If the case u describe arises, and there will be combos that trivialize content, then cze will possibly step in and ban or restrict cards; In addition , isn't it too early to worry about it ? i mean we don't even know pve basics yet

GreyGriffin
06-29-2013, 08:41 PM
If the case u describe arises, and there will be combos that trivialize content, then cze will possibly step in and ban or restrict cards; In addition , isn't it too early to worry about it ? i mean we don't even know pve basics yet

If they ban cards from PvE, where do they go?

And no, it's not too early to worry about it. Presumably, the mechanics of PvE will have SOME similarities with PvP, just of a different scale. CZE has expressed a worrying position about errata - namely that they are going to ban rather than errata cards. Where this leaves the PvE environment is a legitimate concern, since PvE has been largely declared the Realm of Misfit Cards.

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 09:30 PM
I don't know about all of you, but the bulk of my MtG playing was with friends. Where we used whatever the hell rules we wanted. Including decreeing several of my decks illegal because they made the games take 1-2 hours :-P So even if cards are banned from PvE and PvP, you still get to play with them with your friends.

PvE has to be balanced just as much as PvP, the AI is just more forgiving of insane combos. But a reliably overpowered combo will get balanced out somehow, no matter what. If you think that somehow an insane PvE farming combo won't have an effect on the economy, you need to go play an MMO...

Aradon
06-29-2013, 09:37 PM
Sure, but they did say they'd never ban PvE cards. It was pretty clearly stated. So, they're going to have to avoid broken combos & use raid mechanics to break them.

However, if the best loot is locked behind Highlander mode, combo decks aren't going to get much chance to shine there, keeping the best loot unfarmable via that method. I'm guessing that's going to be their primary means of controlling inflation of valuable cards.

Shadowelf
06-30-2013, 01:09 AM
Sure, but they did say they'd never ban PvE cards. It was pretty clearly stated. So, they're going to have to avoid broken combos & use raid mechanics to break them.

However, if the best loot is locked behind Highlander mode, combo decks aren't going to get much chance to shine there, keeping the best loot unfarmable via that method. I'm guessing that's going to be their primary means of controlling inflation of valuable cards.

Very valid point; Locking powerful cards behind highlander mode, will work wonders towards possible combo exploitation

All i'm saying is that i think cze is aware of those combos, and maybe they are already working in preventing them, by preparing dungeon mechanics we aren't aware of; for example encounters with large health pools that will require to be comboed twice to be taken down, encounters that use counterspells, dungeons that u can only cast one spell per turn etc..

Aradon
06-30-2013, 02:32 AM
When it comes to 'large health pools' I doubt you can make one large enough. Lots of combos are infinite. I know the Wrenlocke/Dream Dance combo can cast infinite Rage Fires, meaning you'd have to set a pretty high number for me to get bored before I kill it ;)

One spell per turn seems like a pretty hard combo counter, but I'd hate for that to become the norm for every raid boss/dungeon. "No fun past this point" it'd say :\