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View Full Version : An idea about PvE starter cards for new accounts.



lordjuzam
06-26-2013, 06:24 AM
My concern:

CZE to my knowledge said any account will receive a starter with non-trade-able cards, so any player can play the PvE side without paying anything up front. That's a great idea, but I would suggest going a lot further then this.
To me this wouldn't generate the most fun experience for a new player, they are "stuck" to this deck. I think a lot of fun goes into creating your own deck and experimenting with it. I fear a lot of players will become too frustrated too quickly, because they need to grind far too much or feel they need to spend money way too quickly to get away from the initial deck. Also psychologically speaking a new player will identify a lot more with a self-created deck, then one that's "forced" upon him and will find the experience a lot more satisfying.

I would also like to add that I feel hex can become a very popular product, but a lot hinges on the F2P aspect of it. To me looking at League of Legends for this is not a bad idea. Where a player gets the feeling he can play the game first and pay for some cool/handy stuff later on. Unlike most digital card games I have seen where it's the opposite.

I think giving new players more then a starter will make them interested in the game longer, which can have 2 positive effects for CZE. 1, More chances that this player will eventually pay money. 2, The player likes the game and tells about it to some friends, who try it and potentially spend money on it.

My idea:

Why not give new accounts a collection of cards. I was thinking like 100 different commons with 2 copies of those commons. They would be non-trade-able of course. 200 cards would give a nice pool to create a deck (unlike the starter deck that kinda locks out a not-yet paying player from one of the most fun aspects of a TCG: deck-building). And let's a player give a feel which shards he/she likes best (unlike the starter deck that forces you to certain shards). Also 2 copies incentives them to search for 2 more if they like a particular card. I don't think giving a couple of commons more will cost CZE a substantial amount, nor do I see any immediate ways too abuse this option (correct me if I'm wrong, and we might find an even greater idea).

The only negative side I see, is that a player new to TCG's might feel overwhelmed creating a deck on his own. I would propose CZE creates 10 decks from this cardpool (that's 1 for each combination of 2 shards) and asks a player who wants a deck generated for him: "Hey, which 2 shards would you like to play with". And boom a pre-made deck is made for the new player.
Another solution can also be to include the original starter CZE had in mind, just to showcase a fully-functioning deck (but we lack information about how well synergized this deck will be).

In conclusion:

Lastly I want to make two more points.

1, It's an attempt to generate a discussion that might help CZE with a better way to keep the interest of new players and give them a more fun experience. The 100 commons twice idea is my initial suggestion, but I'm sure other and better ideas can be thought off. Still I do feel a basic starter deck will limit a new players experience too much and could seriously hamper the success of hex.

2. Let's also keep in mind that we (you and I on the forum) are not the target audience these concerns are about. Most of us have already invested a great deal in this game and will not come across this problem. We are a minority and most of us can easily afford to spend some money on a game. So you have to approach this from another (kind of, possibly poorer) player's perspective, not your own .

Brumby66
06-26-2013, 06:28 AM
A new player may not yet have the deckbuilding ability. A starter deck is a way to make sure that a new player has a balanced deck. Maybe they could give the starter deck with some side commons so they have the option of swapping out cards. The starter deck is a good foundation to build on.

ZeroCool
06-26-2013, 06:34 AM
I think this will play out much like how a traditional MMO plays out. You start if with one ability then as you progress you gain abilities, learn skills and gather gold. With that gold you can buy better items, so as you progress everything gets better.

I like the idea of starting out with very little, working towards something great. I don't think those who are really into TCG's are really that interested in the PVE side, and these people are the ones with the deck building experience while someone who is an avid MMO player will enjoy working there way up, and learning how to build a deck. Great transition I think.

Kilo24
06-26-2013, 06:34 AM
PVE is designed to keep giving the player cards to be used in their decks. There's also going to be a lot of cheap commons and uncommons floating around from all the booster packs everyone else is getting, and they'll probably be tradeable for not too much gold. Assuming both of those function decently, I don't see a need for this suggestion. All you're doing is giving the players a free head start that makes the early PvE rewards much less significant.

Hatts
06-26-2013, 06:51 AM
I think this is just as easily handled by making the early town / dungeons / quests provide a steady stream of commons. This introduces them thematically and gradually as opposed to getting them all up front. For people new to TCG's the story can prompt them to start deck building, i.e recruit 4 village militia and add them to your deck before fighting the pack of wolves.

Unhurtable
06-26-2013, 07:05 AM
You are assuming that the PvE will start out grindy. If the gameplay is interesting and fun for the players and not too grindy they will get usually get hooked anyway.

From my understanding they aren't forced into "1 deck" either, but get to choose from a couple? Kind of choosing between a blood, wild, ruby, sapphire or diamond deck? You will also get to pick a class for the PvE so you get even more choice right from the start (now that I think of it I'm pretty certain you get to choose between decks at start, otherwise everyone would play the exact same thing).

This resembles the start of most modern progression-based games. You start out with a few choices (class + race in most MMORPGs) and then you grow your options with additional spells and talents and items and other stuff, just as the PvE experience in Hex most likely will give you additional champions, cards and talent points.

lordjuzam
06-26-2013, 07:33 AM
You are assuming that the PvE will start out grindy. If the gameplay is interesting and fun for the players and not too grindy they will get usually get hooked anyway.

From my understanding they aren't forced into "1 deck" either, but get to choose from a couple? Kind of choosing between a blood, wild, ruby, sapphire or diamond deck? You will also get to pick a class for the PvE so you get even more choice right from the start (now that I think of it I'm pretty certain you get to choose between decks at start, otherwise everyone would play the exact same thing).

This resembles the start of most modern progression-based games. You start out with a few choices (class + race in most MMORPGs) and then you grow your options with additional spells and talents and items and other stuff, just as the PvE experience in Hex most likely will give you additional champions, cards and talent points.

Yeah I hope there will be more then 1 starter deck, but it's hard to choose a shard when having no knowledge on the game yet. What if a player chooses Ruby, but finds out 2-3 hours in he prefers the play-style of sapphire. Unless you mean they get multiple starters.

All in all I agree, if CZE implements the start of the game well and gives enough rewards that a pve player can assemble his own deck quite quickly, that would also be satisfying. Sadly most f2p games I have played are a bit too stingy when it comes to that. So yeah I assumed the beginning would be quite grindy, I hope I'm wrong. But we don't know this yet.

Perhaps this is my biggest concern, that the pve aspect start out too slow/ rewards too stingy. And I want to avoid that from happening at all costs, cause I think it will keep Hex from truly breaking out if they fall into that pitfall.

Hatts
06-26-2013, 07:48 AM
When you sign up you pick 1 starter deck, but that is a PVP deck I don't think it can be changed later. I thought that when you start a new PvE character it would come with a basic PVE starter deck, but I could be wrong on that, I can't find a source.

Avaian
06-26-2013, 08:04 AM
I feel the key thing to remember is that PvE will be a type of RPG, and in many RPGs you start with very basic 'equipment', so the basic starter deck in Hex would be the starting gear. As you progress through the quests you will gain access to better equipment, cards in Hex, that is a part of the RPG experience.

The starter deck you begin with, you receive when you start a new account and will be non-tradeable PvP cards. This system allows new accounts to jump instantly into either PvP or PvE. The non-tradeable cards stop people from making new accounts just for the cards, to break down into materials or some other reason, and stop people from accidentally trading down to less then 60 cards.

To those who worry about the F2P aspect, Hex PvE will essentially be an entire game for free, CZE is hedging their bets that people will enjoy Hex so much they will want to buy things with Platinum. The only things we know you will be able to buy from hex with platinum is PvP boosters and PvP Starter Decks.

Diesbudt
06-26-2013, 09:50 AM
I feel the key thing to remember is that PvE will be a type of RPG, and in many RPGs you start with very basic 'equipment', so the basic starter deck in Hex would be the starting gear. As you progress through the quests you will gain access to better equipment, cards in Hex, that is a part of the RPG experience.

The starter deck you begin with, you receive when you start a new account and will be non-tradeable PvP cards. This system allows new accounts to jump instantly into either PvP or PvE. The non-tradeable cards stop people from making new accounts just for the cards, to break down into materials or some other reason, and stop people from accidentally trading down to less then 60 cards.

To those who worry about the F2P aspect, Hex PvE will essentially be an entire game for free, CZE is hedging their bets that people will enjoy Hex so much they will want to buy things with Platinum. The only things we know you will be able to buy from hex with platinum is PvP boosters and PvP Starter Decks.

This. And when you make your account you get 1 free starter deck that cannot have its cards traded (can be used in PvP).

If you get to select the deck, or if its a predetermined starter has not been cleared yet. However if it is to choose one, it will be to choose 1 of the decks. You can buy others for $10 (these can be traded). Each deck in set 1 that can be purchased (and maybe chosen at start) will be mono colored [confirmed in a Twitch stream].

PvE will be free to play, and the primary way to obtain PvE cards. It will start off slow, as any RPG. You may want to run the same dungeon a few times to get more of the cards you want. However the farther in a dungeon you go the better your rewards.

Basically you do not get 2 free starter decks (1 pvp and 1 pve) it is just 1. That will be the same basically.

Vorpal
06-26-2013, 10:43 AM
If CZE has any brains, they will start rewarding new players with new pve cards for the very first steps they take in pve.

From there the players can start upgrading their decks.

I am looking forward very much to taking my newbie starter deck to ungodly slayer dragons with an uplift of my eyebrow destroyer of worlds type deck.

majin
06-26-2013, 10:55 AM
PvE will be free to play, and the primary way to obtain PvE cards. It will start off slow, as any RPG. You may want to run the same dungeon a few times to get more of the cards you want. However the farther in a dungeon you go the better your rewards..

this part is a good reason why the OP's suggestion might not be a good idea

Diesbudt
06-26-2013, 10:55 AM
If CZE has any brains, they will start rewarding new players with new pve cards for the very first steps they take in pve.

From there the players can start upgrading their decks.

I am looking forward very much to taking my newbie starter deck to ungodly slayer dragons with an uplift of my eyebrow destroyer of worlds type deck.

First dungeon available is a "tutorial" type of dungeon that helps a new player along. And will probably reward a few cards and equipment. I am sure I heard this somewhere. So there is that.

Diesbudt
06-26-2013, 10:58 AM
this part is a good reason why the OP's suggestion might not be a good idea

An RPG is enjoyable if you start at 1 and work your way up. Starting of at level X with Y gear already equipped, you arlead yskipped a few fun hours of playing. So yes I agree his idea is not good because of PvE ment to be played.

Also, there is only 300 PvE cards in set 1... if you give them 2x 200 commons (there isn't even that many commons in set 1 pve) you have basically given them a full set of T1 armor in Vanilla WoW. At level 1. Not a good idea. The point of RPG is to work and build your way to a god slayer with demon armor and angel wings with legends and stories told of your deeds told for generations to inspire the next hero.

And if you don't like that, RPGs are not really your game style. Odds are more of a FPS game is your style.

Syeblaze
06-26-2013, 01:30 PM
I think it might be fun for a dungeon to give you an awesome deck to play with through said dungeon. Kind of a taste of power.

funktion
06-26-2013, 01:51 PM
100 different commons means they are probably getting almost EVERY common... I don't think that's the right number, maybe just do 80 assorted ones total, so that you can get multiples etc. Keeping them non-trade-able seems the only way to go.

Also, I wouldn't flat out give them to the people in their initial account. For truly new players you would be amazed at how easily confused they can get... I would have it unlock them after the initial starter dungeon etc or something. Though at that point why bother, they'll have already built their collection up from doing that dungeon I would assume.

Parzival
06-26-2013, 06:29 PM
I suspect from what has been said that there will be two newbie decks, one for each faction. We know in the PvE campaign you will have to choose a faction so that make's sense.

They mention an additional city for questing in update 6 so that implies not one per race so my total flatulent speculation is we get two decks, one per faction. How they build those decks is the interesting question, you can't have every race and forcing starter races wouldn't appeal to every casual games out there.

Of course the decks would have to be limited, CZE wants to encourage the casual player to drop that $10 on a pre constructed deck.

I wouldn't expect them to suddenly give every common at the start, as some suggest that would confuse new players and from a rpg perspective, you wouldn't have earned them. If they make good on their rpg promise, the early dungeons would be easy and net a good handful of cards to customise your deck, commons would drop quickly, rares well that's where the grindy part will come.

Maybe it's what I want to play but I can imagine something similar to Shandalar, your start out with a really basic deck,the city (cities?) sell some cards for gold, you rampage through dungeons collecting cards along the way.

Shinsaku17
06-26-2013, 07:01 PM
I see what you're saying, but they call them "Starter Decks" for a reason. I think the system they have in place with a free deck is ideal. It allows new players to experience the best thing about the game right off the bat (which is playing the game). Don't get me wrong, I LOVE building decks. However, it takes a bit of familiarity with TCGs to jump in and start building. If I recall correctly, I believe they mentioned something about the in depth tutorials that they're creating for the game to help new TCG players become familiar with all aspects of the game. I believe the "Starter Deck/Tutorial" approach has many advantages not just for the new player, but for the company as well. It'll gives players a risk free trial and then (once they're hooked) it gives them incentive to purchase new cards to improve their capabilities in competition.

NewbieLam
06-26-2013, 07:12 PM
Why don't we give every new player the entire set of PvE cards, because eventually they'll get all the cards by playing. So why not just give it to them from the start.

DanTheMeek
06-26-2013, 07:59 PM
A topic very similar to this was actually brought up before when some one posted about how hex should focus on learning from what Scrolls did wrong as many people were unhappy with the starter they got stuck with. Cory personally responded and stated that that this common issue with online card games (people growing bored with their starter deck quickly) was not something they were concerned with largely because the free PvE experience will allow players to rapidly get new cards purely through playing the game, albeit PvE only ones.

One of the beauties of making PvE not only seperate from PvP, but completely free, is that they can give out cards at a much more frequent and consistent rate then most other free to play online card games which must greatly reduce the amount of new cards you get through grinding in order to encourage you to purchase more cards with real money. With hex, they have no intention of selling PvE cards for real money anyway, so they can focus on making the distribution of cards balanced around a rate that is entirely about the players enjoyment. You still don't want to give them it all at once, as you want them to have something to look forward to, but even then there's still going to be thousands of equipments to chase after as well so players should have PvE items to chase for a good long while.

Mr.Funsocks
06-26-2013, 08:23 PM
This sounds like a terrible idea. First time players get into the game, are given a starter deck with 20+ different cards to read, playing against various AI decks with 20+ cards to read, AND you want to throw them 200 OTHER cards to read, then decide if they want to build a deck out of them? All while learning the rules of how to play a TCG?

No. That's only a good idea if you want to keep Hex exclusive to the hardcore TCG fan, not expand it. The way to do it is have new cards come in a steady stream, after a basic tutorial with very few cards (Cory mentioned your first couple matches will involve you playing a wolf, and that's it). That way, you're only reading a few new cards at a time.

If people pick a deck they end up not liking... oh well. I guess you could give the option to swap your free starter once or twice, but if they do the early PvE experience right, you should be able to chunk along and get the stuff to build a different deck soon.

citizen
06-26-2013, 08:50 PM
As soon as a PVE player earns their first piece of Equipment, they will either have the card that it links with or not. If they do, they are now interested in getting 4 copies of that card for their deck (assuming there were not already 4). If they don't have the card, they will either buy them off the auction house or grind to earn the card. Either way, they now have a goal, and that is usually all it takes to retain someone's interest.

lordjuzam
06-26-2013, 11:51 PM
A topic very similar to this was actually brought up before when some one posted about how hex should focus on learning from what Scrolls did wrong as many people were unhappy with the starter they got stuck with. Cory personally responded and stated that that this common issue with online card games (people growing bored with their starter deck quickly) was not something they were concerned with largely because the free PvE experience will allow players to rapidly get new cards purely through playing the game, albeit PvE only ones.

One of the beauties of making PvE not only seperate from PvP, but completely free, is that they can give out cards at a much more frequent and consistent rate then most other free to play online card games which must greatly reduce the amount of new cards you get through grinding in order to encourage you to purchase more cards with real money. With hex, they have no intention of selling PvE cards for real money anyway, so they can focus on making the distribution of cards balanced around a rate that is entirely about the players enjoyment. You still don't want to give them it all at once, as you want them to have something to look forward to, but even then there's still going to be thousands of equipments to chase after as well so players should have PvE items to chase for a good long while.

Oki thanks for the answer. I didn't know Cory responded to a similar topic, this greatly reduces my fears that hex would make the same mistake as plenty of other games did. My suggestion wasn't meant as the ONLY solution to my fears about hex being too grindy / limiting for players who haven't spent money yet. But it was rather a jump off point for a bit of discussion. I agree with most replies here that a good rpg-like experience (with plenty of loot/ PvE cards) would be superior to my suggestion. But with the exception of Cory talking about tutorials and the free starter deck, I hadn't seen / heard a lot about how CZE would deal with the beginning of the PvE experience. That's why I was concerned.

now some general replies to other things I've seen:

1. Yeah, 2 x 100 commons is a big number. It was only a rough estimate that would allow a player to make a deck with any two shards without feeling he/she has no choice at all. By no means this number was set in stone for/by me, it was merely a starting suggestion.

2. I don't really agree it would be too overwhelming for everyone. I think some of you underestimate a lot of players, let's not go by the lowest denominator. Instead give the players some respect to their intelligence, but build in some mechanics that lesser experienced players don't feel lost. As an example: Ask if the player has experience in tcg's, If they do ,they can have a playset of cards immediately. While lesser experienced players can start off with a more structured start. Basically my point being that different players need different starting experiences. Now I realize this could be too difficult / costly for CZE to implement this well. And I would understand that, but that doesn't invalidate this point.

Mr.Funsocks
06-27-2013, 08:16 AM
2. I don't really agree it would be too overwhelming for everyone. I think some of you underestimate a lot of players, let's not go by the lowest denominator. Instead give the players some respect to their intelligence

Imagine the average person. Then realize that about half the people in the world are DUMBER than that guy.

The point of an effective tutorial isn't to capture the smart ones. It's to capture the average ones.

Avaian
06-27-2013, 08:21 AM
Cory's post about this for those who want to read it or the thread. (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24758&page=3&p=238847#post238847)

Ju66ernaut
06-27-2013, 08:36 AM
I think the basic starter is perfect. It's enough to hold their hand and get the player started. I'm sure they will start to accumulate cards/gold pretty quickly in PvE.