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View Full Version : Guild Size - Should it be Capped?



Stok3d
06-27-2013, 12:29 PM
I came from WoW and was GM of a capped 1000x person guild and it ran beautifully. I tend to snicker a bit when I hear others mention capping CZE guilds to 50. This is an MMO after all...

Obviously, my background has me gravitating toward favoring large guilds. Mine was highly successful and realistically possibly the most mature on the server as well. Properly maintained with a proper organizational team--the benefits far outweigh any other setup imo. My leadership style of being quick and decisive works well in a large atmosphere.

What are your thoughts? Remember, MMO stands for more than "Making Magic Obsolete" :p

jai151
06-27-2013, 12:35 PM
I don't think there's a solid need for a cap. I'm not even sure there's an ephemeral need for one.

This is far from the standard MMO, the vast majority of guild drama just won't occur.

Fleckenwhatever
06-27-2013, 12:35 PM
I came from WoW and was GM of a capped 1000x person guild and it ran beautifully.

You have either lost your mind or are a savant.

nicosharp
06-27-2013, 12:38 PM
I don't personally care. I just know from a leadership perspective, and social perspective over 60 starts to feel zergy. Where people start to lose identity, and guilds like high schools form very segregated silos of mini-guilds for the few that mesh with one another.

nearlysober
06-27-2013, 12:40 PM
We don't really know what the full plans for guilds are and how guild size may impact that.

Guild v. Guild combat ladders, maybe a future leveling/bonus (PvE only) like WoW has... Some of those things may give mega-guilds an advantage, so maybe there will be a cutoff at some point. Or perhaps those things can scale so smaller, tight knit guilds don't feel left out.

I don't really mind either way... I pretty much plan on making a guild with a handful of friends no matter what the incentives are for larger guilds, unless something really crazy awesome can only be obtained in a larger guild.

Diesbudt
06-27-2013, 12:42 PM
Yea somewhere around 50-60 the identity of people in the guild starts to diminish a bit from my experience. Escalating as more get added. And that is just a normal MMO. TCG when biggest things at start are 3 people games, 50 maybe even a bit much at start for a game like this.

I used to be in a guild with 800+ people on WoW. Hated it. It also tried running 10+ raid teams. Our raid team finally got up and left and made our own guild, just because it was uncomfortable who was all in that massive guild.

Hatts
06-27-2013, 12:46 PM
I don't really care either way, I just came to say that we should use Shin'hary instead of zergy when referring to swarms of things in Hex.

I could be brought around to using Shin'hairy or Shin'harey too...

Diesbudt
06-27-2013, 12:47 PM
I don't really care either way, I just came to say that we should use Shin'hary instead of zergy when referring to swarms of things in Hex.

I could be brought around to using Shin'hairy or Shin'harey too...

What about Pack-raptor-y?

Tinuvas
06-27-2013, 12:48 PM
I don't really mind either way... I pretty much plan on making a guild with a handful of friends no matter what the incentives are for larger guilds, unless something really crazy awesome can only be obtained in a larger guild.

I'm in this boat. My purpose for playing Hex is to connect with friends and family, which won't happen in a mega-guild. However, I can understand that there would be other purposes behind playing Hex and those purposes would be served by mega-guilds. I think they have their place. Artificial limits in game should be avoided except under extreme circumstances IMHO.

Shadowelf
06-27-2013, 12:53 PM
I'm under the same belief, that organization and good leadership is what makes guilds run smoothly, and not guild numbers. All it takes is a dedicated willing leader, that sets goals, and makes sure that they are 'executed' with efficiency. Organization is the number one tool to this purpose; as long as:
-everybody knows what he has to do
-is given the proper guidlines
-is treated with respect and as equal
-is aware of his/her boundaries within the guild
-is encouraged and supported
then the guild will work like a well oiled engine and will flourish, no matter its size

Ah and everybody knows that MMO stands for Making Money Online :p

incitfulmonk21
06-27-2013, 12:57 PM
Should it be capped? No.

However, why anyone would want to join a 1000+ player guild where you are just more meat for the grinder I have no idea.

You may have thought your 1000 person guild ran smoothly but I am willing to bet others did not agree. I am also willing to bet there was nothing your 1000 man guild could do that a significantly smaller guild couldn't do at least as good if not better.

But those are my personal opinions and I have no problem with people being just another warm body if that's their cup of tea. I begrudge no one the right to play the game how they want as long as it is not detrimental to the game.

jeff
06-27-2013, 01:16 PM
There is no functional difference between having a thousand people in a chat channel and not having a chat channel at all. With a thousand people, you'd need a police force constantly out there censoring people, and sensitive crybabies getting offended by ridiculous things. Even forty pushes the boundary between a personal, friendly guild and one where you only speak up in public when you need something (with the rest of your chat spent in a private channel with the rest of your clique).

I'll just go with everyone else's tongue in cheek "to each their own" (we're all secretly laughing at you).

That said, I don't think this is a decision CZ should be making for us by imposing limits.

Dralon
06-27-2013, 01:26 PM
I don't feel there needs to be a guild cap, unless...

We don't know full guild details yet ( heck CZE probably doesn't) but if the guild ranking, or guild vs guild elements are so highly favored towards large guilds, then there should be a cap or limits of some kind. A guild with 50 people should be able to compete on a fair playing field with a guild of 1000 when it comes to important achievements and rankings , IMO.

Turtlewing
06-27-2013, 01:30 PM
If there's a compelling reason why it hurts the gameplay of smaller guilds if other guilds are allowed to grow open-endedly than guild size should be capped.

If the only argument against letting guilds grow open-endedly is that "large guilds aren't fun to be a part of" than there's not really a problem requiring developer intervention as guild sizes should naturally cap themselves as people leave the less fun larger guilds.

Since I'm having a hard time imagining a case where the former is true I'm inclined to say no guild caps.

Mr.Funsocks
06-27-2013, 01:36 PM
Depends on one thing:

What guilds will do.

If they are (as they are in most games) just a chat channel, friends list, and a guild bank, then who cares what the cap is. If people want nothing but a chat channel, they can make it that. If people want a real guild, that runs raids and sets up tournament teams or whatnot, they can make it that too.

But if guilds have extended features, ie there are guild rankings in PvP ladders, or guild vs guild is based on # of matches played or whatnot, then they definitely should have a limit. Zerg guilds, while entertaining, are really annoying/unfair when they get on leaderboards by virtue of size, not quality. Especially when the guild leaders of those guilds invariably don't really care when you report their members for bad behavior, and there's not any real pride to be had in the guild, yet it appears on the leaderboards.

They could, perhaps, just do a 2-tier thing, where only small-ish guilds are on leaderboards/can enter Guild vs Guild events, but you can still have massive, unlimited-size guilds.

Turtlewing
06-27-2013, 01:43 PM
Zerg guilds, while entertaining, are really annoying/unfair when they get on leaderboards by virtue of size, not quality. Especially when the guild leaders of those guilds invariably don't really care when you report their members for bad behavior, and there's not any real pride to be had in the guild, yet it appears on the leaderboards.

They could also solve that issue by having your losses count as well as your wins. Then the law of large numbers would push the rankings of large guilds towards the average, whereas the outliers (high ranked guilds) would tend to be smaller guilds with stricter membership criteria.

Then you're back to guild size being largely self limiting.

keldrin
06-27-2013, 01:45 PM
I've been in bigger guilds vs small guilds.
I would say, at some point slow a bit on growth. That way members coming in, are slow enough that if they are active, others have a chance to get to know them.
Good guild officers make a big difference in huge guilds. There have to be enough of them, so everyone feels they know at least one of the officers. And the officers make a effort so people aren't lost in the shuffle.
A well ran huge guild has advantages in guild resources, and how there are always people online to do tings with.
But it is hard to do a large guild right. And not everyone will want to be part of a huge guild.
So, in answer, no. There should be no cap needed.

Daer
06-27-2013, 01:57 PM
I don't think there should be a cap (or if there is it should be be fairly high). That said I don't really see the appeal of a huge guild in a game like this, I certainly have no intention of joining one. 20-30 people seems like the perfect number.

NaharPT
06-27-2013, 02:09 PM
If there would be a point on guild capping, it would make, maybe, some sense...

Not existing one, it would be awkard, to say the least, to establish a cap number. If there has to be one, i can agree that 1000 is a fair number.

That leaves all the room for the tiny, small, medium, giant guilds. A place for all tastes.
(in Wow, i've been in 500 member guilds, as in a 10 member guild, one time... They both had their reasons to be the number they were, and who am I to judge them? To each their own, and not capping allows precisely that.)

stiii
06-27-2013, 03:17 PM
Seems like it all depends on what the purpose of guilds within Hex is.

I don't see any way for a 50 player guild to compete with a 1000 player one. Not in the sense that more would always win just that you can't compare them at all in any reasonable way. If you do average a smaller more elite guild will always win to the point where a one person guild would be top. But if you did top 20 players the smaller guild only gains by adding more people

jonsnow2000
06-27-2013, 03:27 PM
Aside from technical reasons I see no need for guild caps. Everyone is free to join whatever guild they want. If there are tourneys where you need to have even numbers of members from different guilds, those large guilds will simply have to decide between themselves which members will be allowed to compete. My chosen guild (see sig) is becoming pretty large, but I feel our leadership is so experienced that potential drama / "bad apples" will be swiftly dealt with.

Also, those ppl who are world champion material will stand out anywhere, regardless if they are part of a 10man or 1000man guild.

grey0one
06-27-2013, 03:53 PM
Cryptozoic won't limit guildsize unless there's an issue with the software. There is no reason why they should get involved with how a guild is run. With members of a guild, maybe, but not the guild as an entity.

It is should be managed by the guild leadership. If its just a big chat room, then dump as many peeps in it and don't worry. Kick people as needed. If you are building your own community of friends, be @&$! carefull. Members get (irritable/cranky/dramaish?) about who is in a guild. Be clear on criteria for membership.

Corpselocker
06-27-2013, 05:08 PM
While Murder Inc. has a large pool of applicants, we've have gotten a good core of around 25 active, daily members. That is when we decided to close recruiting. Big enough for bredth of experience, reasonable enough to get to know everyone.

I am not one, though, for mandating guild size limits. Some people like bigger guilds, some don't.

Barkam
06-27-2013, 05:45 PM
If CZE is going to implement GvG format games, then there should be a cap on guild size.

Shadowelf
06-27-2013, 06:26 PM
If CZE is going to implement GvG format games, then there should be a cap on guild size.

Not necessarily; sounds easier to limit the number of participants, and then each guild will have to nominate ppl among their ranks to compete

Mr.Funsocks
06-27-2013, 07:06 PM
Not necessarily; sounds easier to limit the number of participants, and then each guild will have to nominate ppl among their ranks to compete

Something like this would have to happen though. Even if it's not an unfair advantage to zerg a guild vs guild match, it's still just really annoying. As long as whatever the competitions are between guilds has an effective cap, works for me.

Thallium45
06-28-2013, 05:32 AM
I feel like the guild cap should be restricted to what the guilds want it to cap at. If they want more than by all means let them have more. but limiting them intentionally is just not good in general.

Shadowelf
06-28-2013, 06:01 AM
I feel like the guild cap should be restricted to what the guilds want it to cap at. If they want more than by all means let them have more. but limiting them intentionally is just not good in general.

Agree; in every game i've played over the years (most mmos) that allowed guilds, the guild cap always was what guilds were setting it to be; And besides guilds are like online homes and we don't want cze to step in our home and tell us what do, unless there is absolutely necessary (I don't think they will ever do it )

RobHaven
06-28-2013, 06:06 AM
This is far from the standard MMO, the vast majority of guild drama just won't occur.

I was thinking the same thing. Since multiplayer is capped at 3 (presently and in the immediate future), there's less room for drama and politics. In the larger guilds I was a part of in the past, all of the drama came from grouping: people getting left out, gear not being distributed fairly, people getting left behind (ie they aren't being taken because they don't have the gear or experience, but they can't get the gear or experience because they aren't being taken), etc. With a hard cap of 3, it's easy for a large number of trios to form up. It's not like you have to find several balanced groups of 10 or 20 to tackle content.
To that point - but slightly off topic - there are no set classes in Hex; player-role versatility allows for WAY more flexibility when forming groups.

Thallium45
06-28-2013, 07:10 AM
very valid point RobHaven

Slamdancer
06-28-2013, 08:01 AM
Also, in every other MMO, Servers are region-based. As far as we know, that aint the case here. So if you want to create an international guild, you basically want and need to have a constant pool of active players from all the major timezones, else you will create an imbalance thats not fun for the smaller group.

You have to keep that in mind in this game. No server boundaries means we ALL can play together, but timezones + awkward workhours are important factors :)

Shadowelf
06-28-2013, 08:19 AM
I was thinking the same thing. Since multiplayer is capped at 3 (presently and in the immediate future), there's less room for drama and politics. In the larger guilds I was a part of in the past, all of the drama came from grouping: people getting left out, gear not being distributed fairly, people getting left behind (ie they aren't being taken because they don't have the gear or experience, but they can't get the gear or experience because they aren't being taken), etc. With a hard cap of 3, it's easy for a large number of trios to form up. It's not like you have to find several balanced groups of 10 or 20 to tackle content.
To that point - but slightly off topic - there are no set classes in Hex; player-role versatility allows for WAY more flexibility when forming groups.

True and indeed very valid point Rob; it could be argued however, and despite the fact that hex doesn't necessitate the use of large groups, that those with less cards or less skill will always be chosen last or not chosen at all. A large guild will give the chance to those players to find ppl with equal qualities (both card and skillwise) to play with; or the guild can interfer to their benefit by organizing mixed groups, for 2:1 new player ratio; this will help new ppl to build up confidence and raid efficiently and effectively while being taught. With this ur not only solving the problem of drama, but you are potentially creating future raid leaders. So as i was explaining in my previous posts all is a matter of leadership and organisation