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View Full Version : Is "Exploiting" the game okay in PvE?



joffrey
06-27-2013, 10:07 PM
*I'm not talking about something over-the-top-clearly-abusive glitch where raid bosses doesn't play any cards or getting legendary equipments at every drop*

What I mean by this is that will exploits that are sorta in the grey area be allowed? For example, dungeons or raids where if you play a set of cards in a certain order, the enemy will only play cards in another set of order, thus allowing you a guaranteed win. Or perhaps an exploit where you make a 60 resource deck and have it easily beaten in Keep Defense. I'm sorry I don't have a good example since we won't know what will be in the grey area until it actually happens but...What is the community thought's on exploits that has no economical gains but simply for the joy of "cheating?"

Mr.Funsocks
06-27-2013, 10:13 PM
Will exploiting be punished? Yeah.

What counts as an exploit? If you have to ask, don't do it.

joffrey
06-27-2013, 10:15 PM
Will exploiting be punished? Yeah.

What counts as an exploit? If you have to ask, don't do it.

There may be some grey areas as to what is considered an exploit. An oblivious player who never report it and continue to exploit without knowing that it is an exploit will have a bad time. It happened in Diablo3 and Neverwinter and a couple of other games.

Rtsands45
06-27-2013, 10:24 PM
There may be some grey areas as to what is considered an exploit. An oblivious player who never report it and continue to exploit without knowing that it is an exploit will have a bad time. It happened in Diablo3 and Neverwinter and a couple of other games.

Quoth the Dictionary: to use selfishly for one's own ends.

Will exploiting be punished? Yeah.

What counts as an exploit? If you have to ask, don't do it.

joffrey
06-27-2013, 10:25 PM
Then I'll just never ask...?

Chiany
06-27-2013, 10:28 PM
Then I'll just never ask...?

You already did....

joffrey
06-27-2013, 10:33 PM
You already did....
No. That was my brother Hoffrey.

Zaelesis
06-27-2013, 10:37 PM
No. That was my brother Hoffrey.

Using any built in mechanic to intentionally game the system is an exploit. Even if you dont report it, if anyone else does, they will know you are doing it as well. They have access to the logs of everything that happens on the server so if they know of an exploit and see people using it, then those people will be punished.

funktion
06-27-2013, 10:39 PM
Wait wait wait.... so you're asking "is breaking the rules of the game is against the rules of the game?"

Aradon
06-27-2013, 10:41 PM
I think he was asking if playing the game completely within the rules, but in a way that's unintuitive and possibly not the intended functionality, is against the rules. His examples don't break any rules, they just use potential quirks of the game programming (though, they're kind of bad examples...).

hex_colin
06-27-2013, 10:46 PM
*I'm not talking about something over-the-top-clearly-abusive glitch where raid bosses doesn't play any cards or getting legendary equipments at every drop*

What I mean by this is that will exploits that are sorta in the grey area be allowed? For example, dungeons or raids where if you play a set of cards in a certain order, the enemy will only play cards in another set of order, thus allowing you a guaranteed win. Or perhaps an exploit where you make a 60 resource deck and have it easily beaten in Keep Defense. I'm sorry I don't have a good example since we won't know what will be in the grey area until it actually happens but...What is the community thought's on exploits that has no economical gains but simply for the joy of "cheating?"

joffrey - your last thread got deleted. Congratulations! I'm guessing this is the one that gets you banned.

joffrey
06-27-2013, 10:50 PM
I think he was asking if playing the game completely within the rules, but in a way that's unintuitive and possibly not the intended functionality, is against the rules. His examples don't break any rules, they just use potential quirks of the game programming (though, they're kind of bad examples...).
Yup. Thank you for clarifying it. The crazies of this community is not as smart as I thought they would be...

Rtsands45
06-27-2013, 11:20 PM
For you Joffrey it is for everyone else don't do it.

keldrin
06-28-2013, 12:40 AM
Well, the grey area of this, is if there is not profit involved. It does not impact the game economy. You gain no ranking or any other gain. I'm not sure it will be a problem. Like in your example of keep defense. If there's nothing to gain from beating a keep, it's possible no one will care.
The other, well with any dungeon or raid. Winning results in gain of treasure and, exploiting that, has the potential to impact game economy. So, that will, with out doubt, result in action.
I am mystified, though, how it could possibly be fun, to raid a keep with a all resource deck.
And like has been said, if you're not sure, safest bet is to not do it.

Zarien
06-28-2013, 01:36 AM
I think it depends on what you mean by exploiting. Are you abusing the game to flood the markets and destroy the enjoyment of others? Then yeah, going to be looked down upon. Did you find some broken combo of cards that synergize really well that noone thought of for some reason? Then no, they know there is going to be some crazy combos and card combinations not intended in PvE. They expect it, what they don't expect is for people to abuse their game to a fault that harms its intentions and let people get away with it.

Delrusant
06-28-2013, 02:29 AM
And your examples do not really fit the game : how can you play an exact same card order when the draw is random? And as for keep defense/attack there seems to be players "gold" as a reward but how much is defined by the defending player. So it correspond as a player challenging friends to beat the puzzle he designed, nothing to be crazy about.

joffrey
06-28-2013, 02:30 AM
I think it depends on what you mean by exploiting. Are you abusing the game to flood the markets and destroy the enjoyment of others? Then yeah, going to be looked down upon. Did you find some broken combo of cards that synergize really well that noone thought of for some reason? Then no, they know there is going to be some crazy combos and card combinations not intended in PvE. They expect it, what they don't expect is for people to abuse their game to a fault that harms its intentions and let people get away with it.

Nah, nothing particularly like that. What I mean is if there was an update and somehow they messed up what cards the enemy plays and it ended up making the dungeon easier than it's suppose to be, basically. Aradon summed up what I meant pretty well.

within the rules, but in a way that's possibly not the intended functionality
At the end of the day, I think anything that is not intended should be put up for a jury before drastic actions are taken because although it's exploitative, there are times when fun exploits end up being implemented into the game.

Chiany
06-28-2013, 02:45 AM
Nah, nothing particularly like that. What I mean is if there was an update and somehow they messed up what cards the enemy plays and it ended up making the dungeon easier than it's suppose to be, basically.

If this would happen, and you use it on purpose to get alot of loot(or whatever) from it, it's still an exploit and you will be banned or something.

joffrey
06-28-2013, 02:53 AM
If this would happen, and you use it on purpose to get alot of loot(or whatever) from it, it's still an exploit and you will be banned or something.
This is what I meant by grey area. Pretend the dungeon only drops legendary equipments for however short of a period it is before they patch it. I doubt that Cryptozoic will just tell people to not do a dungeon until they fix it and expects it to go as planned.

jai151
06-28-2013, 03:26 AM
This is what I meant by grey area. Pretend the dungeon only drops legendary equipments for however short of a period it is before they patch it. I doubt that Cryptozoic will just tell people to not do a dungeon until they fix it and expects it to go as planned.

They'd just rotate out that dungeon until it was fixed

RobHaven
06-28-2013, 05:29 AM
No. That was my brother Hoffrey.

Every post by this guy makes me wonder how or why anyone bothers commenting. But this one...this one is funny. A+

Kietay
06-28-2013, 05:43 AM
Remember what happened when GW2 tried to mass ban people for exploiting the game. That sure went well for them didnt it?

If the exploit is a bug in the code, I do not believe anyone should be banned for it. If a company was unable to make the game without faults they cant expect to get away with banning people and have no backlash from it. in GW2's case it was similar to someone forgetting to add a 0 to the price of an item in a shop or something so it was easily bought and resold.

Blizzard understands this and will fix exploits but knows it is unreasonable to ban people for playing with what is essentially their mistake. This compounded by the fact that a TCG is a lot more expensive for many people than just a single game means it is even more absurd to ban people for exploits.

Now this only includes errors in a game code. If someone is doing something that is not allowed by the game itself then cut away!

keldrin
06-28-2013, 06:19 AM
In the end, if you think you have found a exploit in the game, you are obligated to report it.
Using it over and over for personal gain would be a potential problem.
If you report it, and they say it's not a problem, then you're in the clear on it.

jai151
06-28-2013, 06:27 AM
They also have said they have extremely robust rollback tools if necessary.

Thallium45
06-28-2013, 07:01 AM
crypto did answer this in multiple videos and interviews where they will find out if people are using them and they wont punish people they will just maybe rollback the player who exploited it and then fix it.

ZeroCool
06-28-2013, 07:03 AM
I can't recall any game I've ever played where "exploiting" was okay. Don't be a knucklehead.

Zaelesis
06-28-2013, 07:04 AM
Remember what happened when GW2 tried to mass ban people for exploiting the game. That sure went well for them didnt it?

If the exploit is a bug in the code, I do not believe anyone should be banned for it. If a company was unable to make the game without faults they cant expect to get away with banning people and have no backlash from it. in GW2's case it was similar to someone forgetting to add a 0 to the price of an item in a shop or something so it was easily bought and resold.

Blizzard understands this and will fix exploits but knows it is unreasonable to ban people for playing with what is essentially their mistake. This compounded by the fact that a TCG is a lot more expensive for many people than just a single game means it is even more absurd to ban people for exploits.

Now this only includes errors in a game code. If someone is doing something that is not allowed by the game itself then cut away!

Blizzard blanket bans people for exploiting. There have been entire raid groups that discover bugs on heroic attempts of raid bosses and get banned for it. If you discover an error and intentionally exploit it to benefit yourself, you will be banned, plan and simple.

Another notable exploit was terrain exploit. An error in the coding would allow the characters hit box to render below the ground so they would become unattackable and could run around max level areas and harvest all the materials without risk. This led to blanket bans as well because of the imbalance it created in the economy.

ZeroCool
06-28-2013, 07:38 AM
I wonder if the TS thinks it's okay to use bots too...

HecatesLover
06-28-2013, 07:57 AM
Exploiting, cheating, whatever is never worth it. If you are a KS Backer your specialized account is already worth far more than you could ever possibly gain from exploiting. If you aren't your account will still become worth more and more as time passes and you acquire more cards.

Of course that is just the appeal to the sociopaths. For the rest of us. Would you cheat and steal in real life? Why is it suddenly ok to do it in an online game? The obvious answer to me, it isn't.

Svenn
06-28-2013, 08:22 AM
If it's a bug or something that is clearly not intentional, then no it is not okay. If playing Card X means that the AI breaks and suddenly never attacks you again for the rest of the game guaranteeing you a victory, that's a bug and an exploit and is not okay to (intentionally/repeatedly) do.

If it is creative thinking/deck-building leading to victory, well that's the point of the game. If you find a card combo that seems to almost guarantee you a victory against a PvE dungeon and it's all within the confines of the normal gameplay... that's just good work on your part (and a balance issue for Crypto to work out). Of course, these are hard because you are relying on random card draws so I don't think you'll ever really have a guaranteed victory.

BlindMan
06-28-2013, 08:23 AM
Joy of Cheating: the lesser known sequel to Joy of Cooking.

Hey guys, is "breaking the rules" against the rules? You know, not breaking the rules, but "breaking the rules". Like kinda breaking the rules? But not enough to get punished. Or is it? Please respond with 3 pages of posts on this straightforward idea. Thanks! :)

Vorpal
06-28-2013, 08:26 AM
Taking advantage of the AI is not exploiting, obviously.

That's how every raid boss dies- you take advantage of the fact it does things in a set and predictable manner.

If there are bugs in the game that can give you an advantage, don't do those.

Now, this leads, as you will see, to a gray area. What if there is a bug in the AI that makes it weaker than the developers intended? In such a case it's almost impossible for the players to know and usually it's not considered a bannable exploit.

Rtsands45
06-28-2013, 08:32 AM
In a paper TCG if my opponent looks away from the table and I look at the top card of my deck. I gain valuable information. If I had drawn the card that would be cheating by drawing extra cards. However, the boardstate is the exact same. I have extra information that my opponent does not. Should I be punished if someone else saw me do this?

Zedd
06-28-2013, 09:06 AM
Pretty sure looking at the top card of your deck is grounds for disqualification in a Magic tournament... :P

Rtsands45
06-28-2013, 09:11 AM
Pretty sure looking at the top card of your deck is grounds for disqualification in a Magic tournament... :P

Nope just a warning. Seeing extra cards.

Diesbudt
06-28-2013, 09:21 AM
Nope just a warning. Seeing extra cards.

First time reported to a judge is a warning.
Second time auto loss of that game.
Third time DQ from that tournament.

Also hex won't allow you to look at the top of your card w/o a card effect allowing you to. An advantage to digital, its hard to cheat against the intended rules.

Aradon
06-28-2013, 09:30 AM
I'm all for not cheating and playing fairly and stuff, but could you guys either stop bumping this thread or stop straw-manning it?

Obviously 'cheating is cheating' and it's been said a dozen times already, so I don't know what you think you're contributing to the discussion. There's grey area too, which is what the discussion's about. Nobody is asking, "If I find a way to magically draw three extra cards for free, will I get banned for doing this?"

It's more like, "If I know that the AI never blocks X troop, can I use that to my advantage?" Or "I've found a way in which a certain matchup reacts entirely predictably, and can run it repeatedly with very little chance of loss, depending on what I draw. Is this an exploit?" {For example, some puzzles in DotP have the AI playing a set deck that always casts the same spells. If you have a consistent deck, you might be able to run the same plays every game, meaning the AI reacts the same way, meaning a 100% win rate if your deck is consistent enough.}

Focus on the grey areas, where discussion's actually useful, or stop bumping the thread.

Personally, I think that as long as the cards are functioning as intended, anything goes. If the computer just plays poorly around X card for whatever reason, you can use that to your advantage. Knowing the AI is like knowing your opponent and calling their bluffs or knowing when to bluff them.

stiii
06-28-2013, 09:46 AM
Nope just a warning. Seeing extra cards.

Well is a DQ if you did it on purpose and admitted to it. Which is rather unlikely obviously.

joffrey
06-28-2013, 10:20 AM
I'm all for not cheating and playing fairly and stuff, but could you guys either stop bumping this thread or stop straw-manning it?

Obviously 'cheating is cheating' and it's been said a dozen times already, so I don't know what you think you're contributing to the discussion. There's grey area too, which is what the discussion's about. Nobody is asking, "If I find a way to magically draw three extra cards for free, will I get banned for doing this?"

It's more like, "If I know that the AI never blocks X troop, can I use that to my advantage?" Or "I've found a way in which a certain matchup reacts entirely predictably, and can run it repeatedly with very little chance of loss, depending on what I draw. Is this an exploit?" {For example, some puzzles in DotP have the AI playing a set deck that always casts the same spells. If you have a consistent deck, you might be able to run the same plays every game, meaning the AI reacts the same way, meaning a 100% win rate if your deck is consistent enough.}

Focus on the grey areas, where discussion's actually useful, or stop bumping the thread.

Personally, I think that as long as the cards are functioning as intended, anything goes. If the computer just plays poorly around X card for whatever reason, you can use that to your advantage. Knowing the AI is like knowing your opponent and calling their bluffs or knowing when to bluff them.

Yeah...A good example was in Neverwinter where there's this thing called the Foundry where players are allowed to create their own dungeon. Guess what people did? Put tons and tons of high level mobs in their creations. The difference is that these mobs spawn numbers are extremely low in the legitimate maps. A lot of people got banned for this but was later unbanned because you can see how ridiculous their decision were. What could happen in Hex is that people will abuse the Keep Defense or other sort of things similar to it. Another example was in Diablo3 where certain quests gave a lot more experience than it should. But who would know that these quests shouldn't give a certain amount of experience?

Miwa
06-28-2013, 01:00 PM
The OPs example isn't exploiting the AI, it's known as cheesing the AI. As long as you aren't taking advantage of a bug (like something the AI does doesn't work like it's supposed to, like some of the cards in the first twitch stream), then cheesing the AI is going to be the standard way of beating stuff...

Avedecus
06-28-2013, 01:26 PM
Remember what happened when GW2 tried to mass ban people for exploiting the game. That sure went well for them didnt it?

It worked well enough they did it again shortly after. The first wave of mass-bans was for people intentionally exploiting an issue with the shop (buying thousands of items they shouldn't have been able to afford, then reselling for gold and inflating the economy). The second mass-ban occurred when players discovered a bug in a boss fight that essentially turned the boss "off" for the duration of the fight, and farmed that dungeon over and over because of it.

Mugaaz
06-28-2013, 02:25 PM
Joy of Cheating: the lesser known sequel to Joy of Cooking.

Hey guys, is "breaking the rules" against the rules? You know, not breaking the rules, but "breaking the rules". Like kinda breaking the rules? But not enough to get punished. Or is it? Please respond with 3 pages of posts on this straightforward idea. Thanks! :)

This is not it, at all. In a lot of games where you play against the AI, your goal is clear, win. Maybe that means doing something faster, doing more damage, healing more, etc. Some games that give you a lot of options sometimes lead to situations beyond the developers ability to forsee. I.E. There is a boss with several million HP that's supposed to take a raid to kill, but in another zone there is a monster has an ability that deals damage as a percentage of it's targets HP, then some class has the ability to tame that monster, then attacks that boss and proceeds to kite the boss as his pet deals raid like damage. He then collects all the loot for himself.

Is he breaking the rules? Which? Clearly this would break no EULA rules in the majority of games, but it's clearly game-breaking and abusive. This is an example of how there are many things that are clearly in a grey area.

Banquetto
06-28-2013, 03:13 PM
Now, this leads, as you will see, to a gray area. What if there is a bug in the AI that makes it weaker than the developers intended? In such a case it's almost impossible for the players to know and usually it's not considered a bannable exploit.

Exactly. There can often be a grey area on the border of "correctly handling the AI's attacks" and "exploiting a bug in the AI". I recall in WoW, in the original Zul'Gurub, Bloodlord Mandokir had a charging attack that could be mitigated by having all your healers and ranged standing behind a low wall. Debates raged as to whether this was an exploit, or whether it was the intended correct positioning of your raid. I don't remember what the outcome was though!