PDA

View Full Version : Guild Rapport - To Unite the Community or Not?



Stok3d
06-29-2013, 09:10 AM
I have had a unique opportunity to converse with most of the guild leads so far in Hex as I maintain the Hex Guild List (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24845). I love it! Seeing the enthusiasm, reading the bios, and watching each guild attempt to carve out their own niche for this very diverse player base is awe inspiring. I really want to highlight specific actions, perks, ppl, and guilds, but this isn't why I started this thread.

I know as time goes on that there will be much more friendly "guild competition" that begins with the Guild Keeps, to possible guild point standings, and definitely to where the person resides that won "Worlds". Competition is healthy for the game and helps push ppl and entities to continually re-evaluate, refine, and attempt to better themselves. With this being said, I would also like to facilitate some type of comradery, common courtesy, and guild rapport. Honestly, I want to support us all being tight knit--we will in fact be playing games beyond the guild boundaries.

Without sitting on a soapbox stating this, that, and the other must be done, I am going to solicit to community for response. I'm just going to throw out 5x examples, but I believe you'll get the point. What actions do you deem proper for one guild lead to take when seeing someone you just G'Kicked join up to another guild having done any the following:


Stole cards that were "loaned" from another guildie
Multiboxes singular drafts to gain advantage
Made physical threats to guildmates on vent/teamspeak/etc
Attempted to deface your guild after departure with tactics requiring Moderator intervention
Made continual, unwanted, and perverse advances to your female player base


Of course one plan of action is simply to do "nothing" and let the other guild figure it out for themselves. However, should the original guild lead give the common courtesy to reach out to the new home and provide background to their newest recruit? Is it necessary for this be a community wide buy-in? Please let me know your thoughts.

Pech
06-29-2013, 09:23 AM
Well my 2 cents is the community will deal with out lash at said individual one way or the other no matter if you create a official response page that is updated or not. Info will spread through word of mouth as is. Also depends if said player buys a name change if this option becomes available or just transfers cards from 1 account to other to start over and get a clean slate and continue doing wrong.

One example is a game called Everquest 2 had such a problem with bashing people on the official forums and created a whole separate player run forum just for flaming and trolling and posting hate crimes etc.... Here is the link if you want to visit it http://www.eq2flames.com/

Some examples of thread chains are....

Farmer's Almanac
Your Guild Sucks
Rate-a-Retard
Hall of Flames
and many many more.

It is highly used in conjunction with EQ2 official forums and maybe even more so. Do I personal want the official Hex forums to become Forum Fall,Conspiracy Land, or just a slander through down....absolutely not. When I go to the forums I want to be free of that jargon and concentrate on decent constructive postings with some thought and effort in them. Sure there will be trolling no matter what, but how much do we really want to encourage it.

I think if the community wants to move to a said tracking method a separate entity for tracking such issues is in order rather than trying to create one inside the Hex Forums. And those that wish to Trolololol can do so there at their hearts content.

That's my 2 cents may the cards fall where they may.

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 09:38 AM
Stole cards that were "loaned" from another guildie
Multiboxes singular drafts to gain advantage
Made physical threats to guildmates on vent/teamspeak/etc
Attempted to deface your guild after departure with tactics requiring Moderator intervention
Made continual, unwanted, and perverse advances to your female player base


Of course one plan of action is simply to do "nothing" and let the other guild figure it out for themselves. However, should the original guild lead give the common courtesy to reach out to the new home and provide background to their newest recruit? Is it necessary for this be a community wide buy-in? Please let me know your thoughts.

Some thoughts...

Card Loans/Stealing: I'm really hoping this is a non-issue. I really hope CZE builds some way of loaning cards to another player without giving up ownership of them, so that you can basically call in the loan at any point and get your cards back. The specifics need some thought... and some limitations (i.e. not in the middle of a game, unless that game has been going on for some lengthy period of time, etc.)

Multiboxing a Singular Draft: Again, hopefully CZE spares us from this for the most part with their in-game controls, IP restrictions, linking multiple accounts for a given person behind the scenes, etc.

The rest are very difficult to manage appropriately. It's generally easier to take the side of the group (guild) versus the individual (former guild member), if only because of the numbers. But I've been around online communities long enough to have seen examples where the individual didn't do anything wrong and/or didn't do what they're accused of and it's the guild on some sort of vendetta.

I'm mostly of the opinion that it's not worth saying anything, mainly because the new guild will quickly find out there's an issue if the person exhibits the same behaviors. If it was something particularly egregious I might be inclined to say something though. It would definitely depend on the circumstances (relationship between the 2 guilds involved, general reputation of the new guild, etc.).

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 09:56 AM
My policy has always just been if someone's gkicked for cause, a quick PM to the new GM just giving the facts will suffice.

hammer
06-29-2013, 10:02 AM
Only one which the community should be involved in is number 1 if there is evidence and to protect others but really the evidence should just be forwarded to cryptozoic. The rest are either a non issue or as hex Colin states should be prohibited by design. By CZE.

Hatts
06-29-2013, 10:22 AM
Well my 2 cents is the community will deal with out lash at said individual one way or the other no matter if you create a official response page that is updated or not. Info will spread through word of mouth as is. Also depends if said player buys a name change if this option becomes available or just transfers cards from 1 account to other to start over and get a clean slate and continue doing wrong.


Having been the subject of recent backlash, I think Pech has a good perspective. I think a message between guild leaders is warranted, anything public will be counter productive and lead to locked threads.

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 10:26 AM
...anything public will be counter productive and lead to locked threads.

Agreed. That's never the solution. Word of mouth in the game takes care of that anyway in lots of cases. Identifying people on forums and publicly calling them out rarely ends well.

Stok3d
06-29-2013, 10:29 AM
My policy has always just been if someone's gkicked for cause, a quick PM to the new GM just giving the facts will suffice.

This is what I was eluding to.. but wanted to see opinions of others.

hammer
06-29-2013, 10:39 AM
Yeah seems sensible if the new guild leader doesn't appreciate the intervention / guidance he can respond appropriately and future similar incidents need not be relayed between those clans, but I have a feeling most would at least welcome the heads up and facts to make their own decisions.
Just my 2c Hammer

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 10:41 AM
Having been the subject of recent backlash, I think Pech has a good perspective. I think a message between guild leaders is warranted, anything public will be counter productive and lead to locked threads.

Given the fact that my initial reaction to that thread was to propose exactly the same (private message) i feel vindcated; and totally agree that there has to be a code of contact between guild leaders at least

Kroan
06-29-2013, 10:42 AM
I might be confused. What exactly is being discussed here? Some sort of template for guild rules? Shouldn't each guild decide for themself? :confused: :)

hammer
06-29-2013, 10:48 AM
Basically I got banned from CBB and stok3d wants to know if he will get called out as a tittle-tattler when he contacts my new guild leader with the evidence which boils down to the point that I told CBB leader to take his head out of somewhere and stop making pompous political posts which make us look like a punch of boring trumps. But enough about that because I don't want to derail an interesting thread or lead it on a path to trolldom and locking

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 10:50 AM
This is what I was eluding to.. but wanted to see opinions of others.

Pretty sure you were alluding.

Stok3d
06-29-2013, 10:54 AM
Pretty sure you were alluding.

lol... I still get those confused to this very day. Got me. I'm more of a math guy anyway ^ ^

OmegaStorm
06-29-2013, 10:56 AM
Basically I got banned from CBB and stok3d wants to know if he will get called out as a tittle-tattler when he contacts my new build leader with the evidence which boils down to the point that I told CBB leader to take his head out of somewhere and stop making pompous political posts which make us look like a punch of boring trumps.

Since you've decided to go ahead and let the cat out of the bag, Hammer, yes, this thread is in direct response to you being removed from Clan BlackBlade. While I could list off your offenses, I think your response here pretty much tells people all they need to know about you.

Athravan
06-29-2013, 11:04 AM
Made continual, unwanted, and perverse advances to your female player base

Woah now, shouldn't be to your playerbase, full stop? Only ladies are protected from harrassment? Do ladies need special protection?

Bit tongue in cheek, I'm female myself, I get the nice intentions, but I don't think female players need special rules. Everyone should be protected from harrassment of any kind, and it's not just girls that get harrassed by people.

hammer
06-29-2013, 11:05 AM
Since you've decided to go ahead and let the cat out of the bag, Hammer, yes, this thread is in direct response to you being removed from Clan BlackBlade. While I could list off your offenses, I think your response here pretty much tells people all they need to know about you.

At least some honesty I am not going to get drawn in let's stick to the topic enough CBB laundry was aired and we've already seen one embarrassing thread locked about shady activity of the guild.

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 11:11 AM
Given the fact that my initial reaction to that thread was to propose exactly the same (private message) i feel vindcated; and totally agree that there has to be a code of contact between guild leaders at least

This has the potential to give guild leaders too much power though and is open to serious abuse. What's to stop some random guild leader screwing over some random person by using this "code of contact" between guild leaders?

Stok3d
06-29-2013, 11:12 AM
Woah now, shouldn't be to your playerbase, full stop? Only ladies are protected from harrassment? Do ladies need special protection?

Bit tongue in cheek, I'm female myself, I get the nice intentions, but I don't think female players need special rules. Everyone should be protected from harrassment of any kind, and it's not just girls that get harrassed by people.

I was just throwing out some examples. The key to that whole statement was "unwanted and continual". While you state that our females don't need special rules, I was just citing a specific harassment example that ppl can relate with. I will also be forthcoming and mention that as a person I have always had a soft heart for looking out for / protecting my opposite gender. Don't bash me too hard for this... I bruise easily :)


This has the potential to give guild leaders too much power though and is open to serious abuse. What's to stop some random guild leader screwing over some random person by using this "code of contact" between guild leaders?

I can appreciate your concern colin. This is a practice I adhered to in other games and was wanting to see how others would view these practices here. While we are few in the number of guilds now, after F2P hits we'll soon be in the hundreds/thousands. I have always been one of "trust but verify", but did appreciate the head's up.

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 11:40 AM
What's to stop some random guild leader screwing over some random person by using this "code of contact" between guild leaders?

GL's integrity, perception and willingness to verify; u don't need as a GL to blindly trust any other GL out there because of his rank. But i can understand ur concern on this ; it can easily backfire when u have to deal with a person without the above qualities

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 11:45 AM
Teehee, are we seeing the very first guild meltdown live on forums, before the game even begins? :-D

I don't really understand what the point of the thread is though, if someone's a douche and you kick 'em for it, you tell the next guild why they got kicked. The GL can believe or disbelieve the information at his will.

hammer
06-29-2013, 11:50 AM
No they are not in meltdown they are currently posting on their own forums how they can keep their recruitment thread in the top spot on the official forums by shady coordinated bumping whenever it slips. So they are still fully functioning and showing no sign of a meltdown, just a few more PR blunders that's all. Nothing to see here move along.

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 11:54 AM
GL's integrity, perception and willingness to verify; u don't need as a GL to blindly trust any other GL out there because of his rank. But i can understand ur concern on this ; it can easily backfire when u have to deal with a person without the above qualities

Yeah, even the most respected paragon of fairness and virtue can make a bad decision. Being able to verify any transgression is key - but, as if often the case in gaming communities, that's often easier said than done. A very large percentage of these sorts of arguments end up being of the "he said, she said" variety.

CBB - a couple more threads like this and you'll be the recognized "forum drama" guild. :( Probably time to take steps to stop that from happening, in a way that doesn't result in more threads that exacerbate the problem.

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 12:13 PM
CBB - a couple more threads like this and you'll be the recognized "forum drama" guild. :( Probably time to take steps to stop that from happening, in a way that doesn't result in more threads that exacerbate the problem.

Naw, 2-3 more of these and they'll just finish imploding. I'll get the popcorn ready!

OmegaStorm
06-29-2013, 12:13 PM
This whole point of this thread is to reach out to the community, more specifically guild leaders, to ascertain how to prevent the bad apples from destroying the Hex community. I know I would rather not see the Hex community reduced to the likes of ones like World of Warcraft, League of Legends, etc.

With Hex being free to play (but not really), come release, there is going to be a huge influx of players, likely many of them quite immature. If the Hex guilds watch each others' backs, it would be one step to protecting the community.

Barkam
06-29-2013, 02:33 PM
As a guild leader, I welcome input from other guild leaders regarding new and old members. I will take appropriate actions based on the info and the source. I err on the side of too much info instead of too little. I can always choose to ignore the input.

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 02:44 PM
This whole point of this thread is to reach out to the community, more specifically guild leaders, to ascertain how to prevent the bad apples from destroying the Hex community.

Actually, if you look at subtext, that's not in any way the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to call out a member that was recently booted from your guild publicly, while making it SEEM like he is at fault for being called out by having him be the one to announce that he was booted. It's kind of obvious that you KNEW he'd respond, he's that kind of low-self-control guy from what I can tell. And, since the initial post was a muddled mess with no real idea behind it, it really can't have had another purpose. I mean, the game doesn't even exist yet, so there's no great transgression a member could ACTUALLY have done that would be bad enough to warn other guild leaders about. There's no way this thread, which you yourself have already acknowledged is "in response to" his being booted, could be anything else.

It's basically a pretty obvious attempt by your guild leader to curry favor with the community while badmouthing a (former) member, so hats off all around!

Kietay
06-29-2013, 03:07 PM
This game will be too big for anything you are suggesting. There will be more people associated with small friendly guilds than big ones and simply more people who dont care what others say in general. Of course if you are friends with the leader of another guild you will likely tell them what ever you want to, but there will be no effective organized system for this.

Anything that someone does to break the rules should be dealt with by CZE. Anything else is just, you said vs they said. The opinion of one person has no natural weight over the opinion of another so it is really irrelevant to any independent person at that point.

On the supposition that it could be set up, I still think it is a bad idea. No individual player or group of players or guilds should be a policing force. If someone breaks a rule CZE will deal with it, if they don't you have to live with the way they want to play.

P.S. There should not be a system that facilitates loaning cards. c:

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 03:09 PM
P.S. There should not be a system that facilitates loaning cards. c:

Why not?

Avedecus
06-29-2013, 03:18 PM
Because his responses in every other thread on the issue show that he believes only money should dictate success.

Kroan
06-29-2013, 03:25 PM
Actually, if you look at subtext, that's not in any way the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to call out a member that was recently booted from your guild publicly, while making it SEEM like he is at fault for being called out by having him be the one to announce that he was booted. It's kind of obvious that you KNEW he'd respond, he's that kind of low-self-control guy from what I can tell. And, since the initial post was a muddled mess with no real idea behind it, it really can't have had another purpose. I mean, the game doesn't even exist yet, so there's no great transgression a member could ACTUALLY have done that would be bad enough to warn other guild leaders about. There's no way this thread, which you yourself have already acknowledged is "in response to" his being booted, could be anything else.

It's basically a pretty obvious attempt by your guild leader to curry favor with the community while badmouthing a (former) member, so hats off all around!

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

I had exactly the same thought after reading it.

hex_colin
06-29-2013, 03:30 PM
We've entered the OP_Kyle Thread Locking Zone... :(

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 03:43 PM
This thread may have been inspired because of certain events, those events might have caused stok3d to wonder how to handle more egregious situations, and what the communities take on the matter would be. I personally think if a person feels like someone really crossed a lot of important lines that person should take the time to write a message to the leadership about what to look out for.

I don't think hammer did anything on that level. But that it inspired the question is not wrong. Also, to assume he would be dramatic in this thread isn't a given. Its a shame and all. But I think he'd probably be a fine guild mate elsewhere and I wish him well. I didn't expect it.

I think people should use their best judgement on the matter. As for subtext, you're just trying to create drama where none exists. Which is a fine way to pass time, but I'd not put too much faith in your prophetic powers.

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 03:54 PM
I didn't expect it.

You're clearly not as astute of an observer as your GM is then, 'cause after seeing him post in a grand total of 1 other thread, even *I* would have expected it :-P

It's obvious what the community's take is on how to handle former members. It's how it's been in every other MMO ever, and considering your GM has run other guilds in other MMOs before, he would know this, and there's no reason to ask. The only reason to make this thread would be... well... this.

So drama away!

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 03:58 PM
I have spoken to hammer a few times, and would have expected better honestly. I suppose he could be very different in personal communication than public. *shrug*

Also my GL hasn't posted in this thread. So I don't see how he's involved?

I do agree that the answer seems obvious to me, but this community is very different. Lots of people may not have ever even take part in an online large forum like this. It's not a completely unworthy topic for people to weigh in on.

BenAndrion
06-29-2013, 04:00 PM
days of our lives, as the world turns, and the young and the restless combined have nothing on this lol.
I think you all need to take a deep breath and give each other a hug.
but this was quality entertainment!!

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 04:01 PM
I have spoken to hammer a few times, and would have expected better honestly. I suppose he could be very different in personal communication than public. *shrug*

Also my GL hasn't posted in this thread. So I don't see how he's involved?

Oh, whichever :-P I don't keep track of your guys' guild ranks.

But any observer of people could figure this one out, c'mon now.

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 04:04 PM
I gave hammer more credit perhaps, still the question is valid. There has been some amount of discussion I don't see why you feel the need to derail it?

OmegaStorm
06-29-2013, 04:07 PM
Actually, if you look at subtext, that's not in any way the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is to call out a member that was recently booted from your guild publicly, while making it SEEM like he is at fault for being called out by having him be the one to announce that he was booted. It's kind of obvious that you KNEW he'd respond, he's that kind of low-self-control guy from what I can tell. And, since the initial post was a muddled mess with no real idea behind it, it really can't have had another purpose. I mean, the game doesn't even exist yet, so there's no great transgression a member could ACTUALLY have done that would be bad enough to warn other guild leaders about. There's no way this thread, which you yourself have already acknowledged is "in response to" his being booted, could be anything else.

It's basically a pretty obvious attempt by your guild leader to curry favor with the community while badmouthing a (former) member, so hats off all around!

It is unfortunate that you feel that way, Mr.Funsocks. We are all entitled to our opinions, of course, and I appreciate yours. Yes, it is true, as I have said, that the thread was in response, albeit indirectly, to the aforementioned former guild member. However, the intention of the thread was not directed at that former member, like you would like to believe.

You say that the initial post is "a muddled mess with no real idea behind it." I disagree. As we move forward towards alpha, the community has a chance to decide what sort of community it would like to become. Kietay referred to it as trying to create a 'policing force' in the community. Quite a valid opinion, if I do say so myself, though I do not believe that is the intent of Stok3d in his post. His question is quite a simple one: Would you, as a guild leader or officer, want to hear opinions of a potential recruit's former guild? Does it matter? Do you even care?

I'm sort of on the fence about it myself for some of the reasons already mentioned, though I still believe that guilds that look after one another can bolster the longevity of the community as a whole. While guilds may be rivals in a sense in tournaments, I believe that camaraderie among guilds can take Hex from a good game to a great game.

Kietay
06-29-2013, 04:07 PM
There does not have to be any discussion on it. If a guild leader is friends with another, he can tell the other about what any person did, made up or not, and the other leader will decide what to do with that information. All this thread is trying to do is reveal how the person who tries to inform others will be treated for their willingness to expose others.

All in all it doesnt really matter because if someone is your friend they will likely believe you and you will get that person excluded from their guild. But the amount of players and guilds that will be in this game makes it pointless since there will be 300 others they can still join that no one will have influence over.

Tathel
06-29-2013, 04:16 PM
There does not have to be any discussion on it. If a guild leader is friends with another, he can tell the other about what any person did, made up or not, and the other leader will decide what to do with that information. All this thread is trying to do is reveal how the person who tries to inform others will be treated for their willingness to expose others.

All in all it doesnt really matter because if someone is your friend they will likely believe you and you will get that person excluded from their guild. But the amount of players and guilds that will be in this game makes it pointless since there will be 300 others they can still join that no one will have influence over.

Yeah, I agree. I think any attempt to do a sort of Guild U.N. with accords and regulations on official interaction etc. May seem reasonable now but once the game starts rolling the number of guilds will likely make it unreasonable and it will revert to a 'just use common sense' situation.

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 04:21 PM
There's all this talk about police force or U.N. the question seems to be to me. "if you're a guild leader would you like to hear from some random guy you have never spoken to that was a part of a new members previous guild about all the terrible things that new member did."

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 04:24 PM
It is unfortunate that you feel that way, Mr.Funsocks. We are all entitled to our opinions, of course, and I appreciate yours. Yes, it is true, as I have said, that the thread was in response, albeit indirectly, to the aforementioned former guild member. However, the intention of the thread was not directed at that former member, like you would like to believe.

So it was a callous disregard for the inevitable fallout that would occur? 'cause lemme tell you, it was definitely inevitable. I suppose it's not quite as bad, still doesn't reflect well though. If you can't see posting a thread like this within a day of booting a member would evoke a reaction from said member... well... I dunno what to tell you about powers of perception.


You say that the initial post is "a muddled mess with no real idea behind it." I disagree. As we move forward towards alpha, the community has a chance to decide what sort of community it would like to become.

No it doesn't... communities don't decide how to be... they evolve as they grow, and either the person in charge (CZE or a group of players in this case) implements policies/changes in-game rules to reflect it, or they don't. It wasn't a "poll" of opinions on whether people would want to hear the dirt on former guildmates. It wasn't proposing a policy change by CZE. It might have been proposing an inter-guild community-based police-force kind of thing, but I don't think Stoked (or anyone else) thinks that's a good idea. It was just a very effective provocation for hammer.

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 04:52 PM
You've just been derailing this thread for your own chuckles. Don't pretend it's more than that. Hammer hasn't been here trying to move the discussion in a bad direction, you have. He said his piece and left. Kindly do the same if you can't keep it on topic?

CZE, doesn't have any say in whether guild leaders should talk about some guy running a confidence scam on people in order to get their cards. CZE may or may not choose to ban that behavior, a guild leader could definitely tell another guild leader that it happened so at least he has an informed view, and then decide to embrace that action or not at their own discretion. The question once again is, "How do you feel about communication, would you rather not hear about it and just take your chances, or would you like to be apprised by the previous guild."

Even if things they do aren't bannable by CZE, would you like to know they're disruptive or shady? Or would you prefer to just have everyone let everyone else fend for themselves with problem players.

ShadowTycho
06-29-2013, 04:54 PM
so basicly you are asking should guild leaders organize themselves so that they can blacklist people?
thats touchy.
do you think that every person in charge of a guild should have the power to hurt people they don't like that badly?
Without oversight its just he said she said.
I mean if a guild leader has a disagreement with someone and kicks them they could say whatever they want.
people talk down about people they don't like all the time, this would just give that a huge amount of power.

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 04:57 PM
so basicly you are asking should guild leaders organize themselves so that they can blacklist people?
thats touchy.
do you think that every person in charge of a guild should have the power to hurt people they don't like that badly?
Without oversight its just he said she said.
I mean if a guild leader has a disagreement with someone and kicks them they could say whatever they want.
people talk down about people they don't like all the time, this would just give that a huge amount of power.

That's absolutely true, I'd be against any sort of blacklisting scenario. That's crazy talk. I suppose you could have some sort of alliance of guilds that all keep together about things like that, but for the total community, that just sounds much too prone for abuse.

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 05:06 PM
I mean if a guild leader has a disagreement with someone and kicks them they could say whatever they want.
people talk down about people they don't like all the time, this would just give that a huge amount of power.

Thing is that u describe it like it is an everyday situation; i mean how often are ppl kicked form guilds? and in most cases they are probably woth of their ban; i don't think that some GL would bother warn another guild because he expelled a member due to disagreeing ; what stoked described where mostly special cases, like stealers and abusers. Wouldn't u like an advanced warning before signing up such a member ? Also u can always make up ur mind by examining the case further if u have suspicions that the info provided isn't valid..

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 05:11 PM
ShadowTycho has a point, I have seen exactly what he described. Someone gets under a big guild leaders skin, rubs him the wrong way on the wrong day and the next thing you know the guys name is ruined for no good reason. A hard and fast blacklist is just a no go. It's unworkable in this situation.

ShadowTycho
06-29-2013, 05:11 PM
okay, but if you have 8 or 9 clan's that just wont take you in because you caught a guild leader's wife on a bad day...
why would anyone want you in their guild. just coming from my wow and eve experience, stuff like this makes people have to change names or leave servers for the most crazy reasons.
truth is, if you are going to take someone's word on something you need some reason to do that. just because that person is running their own guild just means that they have whatever it takes to do that(my experience is this is not a whole lot.) some will be respectable, some wont, but it has nothing to do with the position and just has everything to do with the quality of the person in it.

feel free to /tell/ people you like about why you are kicking so and so.
but if someone tell's you, remember its just hear say and the true villain may very well be talking to you.
if someone does something truly egregious, crypto will take care of it. below that lever is the wild west.

Shadowelf
06-29-2013, 05:16 PM
@ShadowTycho Yeah the issue is 'touchy', i can see where it helps but i can also imagine how much harm it can do...

Corpselocker
06-29-2013, 05:33 PM
One guild's bad apple is another's superstar. I read nearly every thread, so I know who I'm recruiting and if they fit in to our code of conduct. Only in cases of outright theft would I consider trying a community blacklist.

OmegaStorm
06-29-2013, 05:41 PM
One guild's bad apple is another's superstar. I read nearly every thread, so I know who I'm recruiting and if they fit in to our code of conduct. Only in cases of outright theft would I consider trying a community blacklist.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, eh?

The general consensus, at this point, to the original question is no: It's not necessary and it is better to keep things in house. While I don't think a blacklist was the original idea, I can see how it might easily become that. In a way, it would be a form of internet bullying and that is a big no-no.

Thallium45
06-29-2013, 05:47 PM
I feel like a heads up should be sent and CZE should be informed as well. They need to take care of abusive players, its their game and their players, if it was high school and someone left your group for being abusive firstly it would be know soon enough and secondly it would be reported to a teacher to resolve the fact that there is an abusive student.

ShadowTycho
06-29-2013, 05:52 PM
I feel like a heads up should be sent and CZE should be informed as well. They need to take care of abusive players, its their game and their players, if it was high school and someone left your group for being abusive firstly it would be know soon enough and secondly it would be reported to a teacher to resolve the fact that there is an abusive student.

i refuse to let my video game become highschool.

Gwaer
06-29-2013, 05:54 PM
i refuse to let my video game become highschool.
I've always found them to be more like high school than high school.

It's like everyone in your high school could do or say anything knowing they could just be someone entirely different the next day. It's terrifying, really.

ShadowTycho
06-29-2013, 05:58 PM
It's like everyone in your high school could do or say anything knowing they could just be someone entirely different the next day. It's terrifying, really.

I have always been able to find a small corner of the game that was mature and reasonable and fun.
it will be interesting to see if cryptozoic is willing to offer name changes(and thus the ability to do what you say) given how mad people got over a t-shirt and a free card.

OmegaStorm
06-29-2013, 06:06 PM
i refuse to let my video game become highschool.

I don't recall ever having a bad experience back in high school. I was Geeky-McGeek and I hung out with Geeky-McGeeks. We never had any trouble with the "popular" kids. I suppose it's all a matter of the local culture. I grew up in a country town where you could have pocket knives and chewing tobacco in high school and nobody cared. Of course, that's probably changed in recent years.

Tathel
06-29-2013, 06:29 PM
I don't recall ever having a bad experience back in high school. I was Geeky-McGeek and I hung out with Geeky-McGeeks. We never had any trouble with the "popular" kids. I suppose it's all a matter of the local culture. I grew up in a country town where you could have pocket knives and chewing tobacco in high school and nobody cared. Of course, that's probably changed in recent years.

Rare luck i'd say =P
High school was pretty good for me, i was in the kinda band geek group, but i'm pretty social and we had a lot of cross over with the Skaters. And a lot of skaters played 'Rifts' and some other nerdy things, and i had some decent acquaintances in the preppy popular side. Still had trouble a few times a year though, and new tons of kids who had trouble on a daily/weekly basis.

Suburbs with diff income brackets and social views all coming together. Never Fun >_<, Glad i stayed clear and drank my way through the worst of it ^_^

Kietay
06-29-2013, 06:37 PM
i refuse to let my video game become highschool.

Holy Amen to that! CZE should only be concerned with rule breaking. If someone wants to be rude, that is their prerogative and they will be excluded by others naturally who dont appreciate it.

Corpselocker
06-30-2013, 06:24 PM
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, eh?


Ugh, not a good analogy and that saying isn't accurate, either. Some people will just click better in different settings. I won't go into my background, but please unlearn that phrase...

Monarch
06-30-2013, 07:22 PM
Other games (EverQuest comes to mind) went over the top on their blacklisting, etc. And as far as high school goes, I don't think anyone was suggesting a Rate-Your-Teacher-style website for players.

But I would love to see a strong coalition of major guilds form and shape the community. I don't just mean a U.N. police force. Rather than have the community pillars fighting, it makes more sense for the major pillars to help direct the community to be a civilized and responsible one. No punishments needed, just leading by example. Let's not become LoL...

ossuary
06-30-2013, 07:46 PM
I would never consent to being told how to behave by a "coalition of major guilds." Who the hell cares how many members a guild slaps together "CLICK HERE TO JOIN!" style? That doesn't give them weight, or value, or integrity, it just gives them volume.

The community as a whole doesn't need a small group of people with no other qualification than "we stuck a guild tag after our name" trying to tell everyone else what to do. :p

jeff
06-30-2013, 10:04 PM
Ugh, not a good analogy and that saying isn't accurate, either. Some people will just click better in different settings. I won't go into my background, but please unlearn that phrase...

There's nothing wrong with that phrase, whatever your background happens to be. There's two wrong sides to every conflict, and two right ones.

That aside, I think that there should be a line drawn somewhere. If a person is just a jerk, that will come out on its own. Maybe the person will learn and grow and change. As a gm, even if you feel strongly enough about someone to banish them from your walled garden, you shouldn't rob them of their chance to change., like by ruining someone else's first impression. The line should be drawn at whether someone could be hurt as a result of this persons actions, e.g. account compromise, cheating, theft. I'd like to be warned, and I would certainly warn others.

ShadowTycho
06-30-2013, 11:06 PM
There's nothing wrong with that phrase, whatever your background happens to be. There's two wrong sides to every conflict, and two right ones.

That aside, I think that there should be a line drawn somewhere. If a person is just a jerk, that will come out on its own. Maybe the person will learn and grow and change. As a gm, even if you feel strongly enough about someone to banish them from your walled garden, you shouldn't rob them of their chance to change., like by ruining someone else's first impression. The line should be drawn at whether someone could be hurt as a result of this persons actions, e.g. account compromise, cheating, theft. I'd like to be warned, and I would certainly warn others.
i don't want to be exposed to whatever epistemology lets you think everyone can be right.

that said, its one thing to report people you don't like and yell about those whom have offended you.
it is quite another when a large group of people formally agree to listen.

Arbiter
07-01-2013, 04:08 AM
Stole cards that were "loaned" from another guildie
Multiboxes singular drafts to gain advantage
Made physical threats to guildmates on vent/teamspeak/etc
Attempted to deface your guild after departure with tactics requiring Moderator intervention
Made continual, unwanted, and perverse advances to your female player base



The thing with your list is, with the exception of number 4, why are you going to other guild leaders rather than reporting the misdeed to CZE and helping out the community as a whole. (1) and (2) are fraud (I doubt that 2 will be possible), while 3 and 5 are harassment issues that should be reported to CZE and if serious enough (although I hope it never gets to that stage) to the local authorities of the victim. Number 4 you'll be reporting to CZE to get it dealt with, and the player is exposing himself for what he is through these sort of actions. So the question becomes, why are you only interested in stopping the player joining a guild?

In general I cannot see any point in having guild leaders reporting unsolicited on the players that leave their guild. If it is a serious issue, it should be being dealt with by CZE. If the player decided it wasn't a good fit, you really have no cause with them leaving and should be happy to see them go and find something that is a better fit. If the player had a falling out with others in your guild, I don't see that as being sufficient for a guild leader to try to stop them being able to go elsewhere. It takes two sides to have a falling out after all.

Trying to prevent a player from joining another guild is in effect harassing that player. It's not something that should be done lightly.

In the end, some guilds will contact former guilds of applicants for details on that player and if that happens a guild leader should be honest. Otherwise, the wisest course for the most part is to just let bygones be bygones and players find the best guild for them.

If a large guild wants to be a valued community member they need to look out for their own member's behaviour not their ex-member's behaviour. I've left large guilds in other games because any codes of behaviour they enforced within guild they did not feel the need to enforce for their member's towards non-guild players. The tribal "he's not in the guild so it's OK to be a jerk to him" attitude. Those guilds are never well thought of by the community and the guild tag ends up being a negative thing for all the members.

Looking at some of the recent threads, I find this topic title rather ironic. I would say that CBB needs to look at and discuss what they expect of their guild members, not worry about an ex-member, or their guild tag will end up being a fairly divisive thing in the community, and a portion of it will not have anything to do with a player sporting that tag. Handling relationships with the rest of the community is a lot of work for large guilds.

hex_colin
07-01-2013, 05:30 AM
I would never consent to being told how to behave by a "coalition of major guilds." Who the hell cares how many members a guild slaps together "CLICK HERE TO JOIN!" style? That doesn't give them weight, or value, or integrity, it just gives them volume.

The community as a whole doesn't need a small group of people with no other qualification than "we stuck a guild tag after our name" trying to tell everyone else what to do. :p

I might have used different language ;), but I basically agree with Ossuary's stance here. Especially at the beginning of a community. A year from now, who knows? By then, certain guild leaders and their guilds may have differentiated themselves and gained a reputation that warrants listening to their opinion on these sorts of matters.


The thing with your list is, with the exception of number 4, why are you going to other guild leaders rather than reporting the misdeed to CZE and helping out the community as a whole. (1) and (2) are fraud (I doubt that 2 will be possible), while 3 and 5 are harassment issues that should be reported to CZE and if serious enough (although I hope it never gets to that stage) to the local authorities of the victim. Number 4 you'll be reporting to CZE to get it dealt with, and the player is exposing himself for what he is through these sort of actions. So the question becomes, why are you only interested in stopping the player joining a guild?

I think the problem with 1, 3 and 5 is that it ends up being "he said/she said" and, whilst you're free to report whatever you like to CZE, there's probably not a whole not a whole lot CZE can really do about it unfortunately. :( Now, if the behavior spills into Hex chat channels and CZE is logging it, then they could take action.

Patrigan
07-01-2013, 05:43 AM
TLDR at the bottom.

I used to be a guild leader of a 60-80 man guild on World of Warcraft during the Classic times. My guild started with only 3 players that had epics, some more had blues and the majority had greens. I gathered all the players that other guilds shied away from because they were "inexperienced". Even though we had a bit of coming and going of members, in a relatively short amount of time we went from downing Ragnaros and Onyxia for the first time on the same day, to going into classic 40man Naxx (not the sissy WotLK version). This was because I really forged a bond with and between ALL members. No members was allowed to be left out. We had channels upon channels of chats, one for each role, one for each class, a general guild chat and a raid chat. Communication between all members was the primary key. There was only one major bad moment, where we lost about 5 players at once and that was when i decided to drop the very flawed system of DKP for the more controlled system of "Raid Leader decides".

"Raid Leader decides" was not done just like that, it was completely based on the aforementioned chat channels. Each class would quickly discuss who has the most right to gain an item, taking into account both amount of progression (rather replace a blue than a purple) and activity (more active players should be more rewarded). That would then escalate to the role channel (because most items were for a given role) and that in turn went up to the Raid Leader who made the final call in a chat together with all the officers (this was to ensure that activity was rewarded). Basically, this upwards cascading system ensured that all players were involved in the decision making progress, including those not present in the raid.

Now I know this sounded a lot like bragging, but in there hidden is the key to a good guild: Communication. Communication is a two-way channel, listening and speaking, where listening has more value than speaking. I failed to listen once and it cost me members and a bit of guild drama. If at that time I spoke with RANDOM members about the situation, I might have changed my approach (we would still have transcended into the new system, but in a less tyrannical way).

It's a lesson I learned and from that point on, everything I decided was discussed in three tiers. Officers, Guild, Random members, closely involved members. The first two are obvious, the third is special. I actually randomly (diceroll) decided on a few members to talk to. I approached them and brought up the subject in a face to face whisper conversation. This gave me a good feel what the individuals were thinking. The last group is seemingly obvious for situations like gkicks and mistakes, but not so obvious for situations like loothandling situations. there's always someone vocal about something. The key to prevent their vocality from spreading, is to talk with them personally and use them to slightly adjust your stance, even if you don't agree with his stance. This attempt to at least come closer to each other before the decision is even announced will make them stand more behind you. Ensure that you handle all of his/her issues with the change and you can be sure that the same issues won't come up anymore.

Clan BlackBlade, I don't know how many of these advices you are already using, but I suggest greatly to improve on your internal communications. Some of you might not like me from these forums, but know that aside from that mistake with the system change I never had guild drama like what has been shown the past weeks (first with Pech and now with Hammer). By having a proper face-to-face communication with Hammer, if need be witha neutral party, most of this could've been prevented. By having clear guidelines for example on how recruitment works, other issues could be prevented as well. Certainly never ever have blatant or veiled attempts at name and shame (honestly, this thread is still a name and shame, even if, as you say, it wasn't meant to be). And ALWAYS apologize for your own mistakes in the drama (you ALWAYS made a mistake if there's a fight, even if you believe you were right).

To get on-topic. For me personally, this all does NOT include listening to outsiders for opinions on members. I had fairly good relations with other guilds, where I even got a loaning system going where we actively loaned members whens hort of a specific class / to get some extra insight in a specifc fight. But I NEVER EVER discussed my (ex-)members with an outsider. This is by far the worst thing you can do. The only time I would do something is when a member is blatantly breaking the ToS or calling people bad names (talking real bad here, like calling someone a nazi or something). In those cases, the only outsider I would talk to is the game manufacturer (Blizzard in WoW and CZE in Hex).

Naming and shaming someone publicly or privately to another guild leader is the absolute WORST you can do. Most often it shows that you are personally biased to your own position and are equally responsible for things going sideways. At that point you are to me worse than the member, because he hasn't yet done anything wrong to me or my guild. If you talk to someone about your ex-member you are not out to "protect" that guild, you are on a crusade to destroy the reputation of said ex-member. Once he leaves your guild, he is no longer your responsibility. The recruiters of his new guild should take adequate measures in interviewing and reference checking, with other words, they should come to you.

Let every guild find its own way.

So I have a counterproposal:
Instead of a policing system, introduce a consultancy system. Where one guild leader can request the assistance/opinion of the other guild leaders. Strict "no naming and shaming" should apply. This approach will create roughly the same outcome, without destroying the possibility for the bad apple to change.

TLDR:

I'm an awesome guild leader with strong prioer experience (brag brag).
Communication is Key. Communication is primarily listening and only then talking.
Both member and Guild leader is responsible when there's drama.
Counterproposal: Counsel of guild leaders listening to the problems of others (no naming and shaming)

Dropbear
07-01-2013, 06:51 AM
4 if done in jesting banter against two clans is usually OK. The rest is all "Hit the Report Button and let the Gods sort it out".

The community as a whole doesn't have to be all roses and cuddly with one another, and it's impossible as you'll see rivalries and such form in a high-pressure competition. The general rule of "Don't be a dick and you won't be banned" should just hold here.

ZeroCool
07-01-2013, 07:07 AM
Maybe Guilds in the future (after the beginning, entry level phase on Hex) should require references from former guilds/players. Not a perfect solution, but it could help out a little when knowing who to allow, and who not to allow in your guild.

Also, you should take a gander at their recent posts on the forums. You generally get what type of player they are from that.

Kietay
07-01-2013, 10:17 AM
Maybe Guilds in the future (after the beginning, entry level phase on Hex) should require references from former guilds/players. Not a perfect solution, but it could help out a little when knowing who to allow, and who not to allow in your guild.

Also, you should take a gander at their recent posts on the forums. You generally get what type of player they are from that.

This is usually what CEOs in EVE do. If you care enough anyways. Check with their previous CEO, check forum activity. Always take it with a grain of salt because what someone else says isn't always true either but at least you have something to go on.

Zaxian
07-01-2013, 11:07 AM
The thing with your list is, with the exception of number 4, why are you going to other guild leaders rather than reporting the misdeed to CZE and helping out the community as a whole. (1) and (2) are fraud (I doubt that 2 will be possible), while 3 and 5 are harassment issues that should be reported to CZE and if serious enough (although I hope it never gets to that stage) to the local authorities of the victim. Number 4 you'll be reporting to CZE to get it dealt with, and the player is exposing himself for what he is through these sort of actions. So the question becomes, why are you only interested in stopping the player joining a guild?

...(snipped for length)
Agree with Arbiter here. In the event the player in question has done something sufficiently bad (fraud, harassment etc.) you should be reporting them to CZE or the official mods. If they're just an unproductive member of the guild/acted like an ass etc., then kick them from your guild and be done with it. If they join another guild, either they'll act in the same way and be kicked again in short order, or they won't in which case there's not an issue.

jeff
07-01-2013, 11:40 AM
i don't want to be exposed to whatever epistemology lets you think everyone can be right. (snip)

It's unclear whether you're being intentionally obtuse here but I'll just spell it out for you. Nobody enters a conflict thinking they're wrong. If two people both think that they are right and the other person is wrong... Well I'm sure you can handle the maths from there.

And anyway, well intentioned as it may be, there's simply no way to prevent something like this from being abused, either through malice or through unquestioning reliance.

Plus, if their new gm doesn't care enough to find out where they're from, what business is it of yours to butt in? Yes, it's true! The person inviting a complete stranger to their guild could simple impose standards on their recruitment process. I'm certain all these self proclaimed experienced guild leaders in this thread already practice something similar. Hell, that'd be much easier than disguising a multi guild blacklist as "information sharing".

fitzle
07-01-2013, 05:31 PM
If asked, provide honest feedback. If it goes against CZE policy, report them appropriately. It really has yet to be seen exactly how much interaction this game and guilds will have. It's very possible that guilds will little more than a hashtag in game so what difference does it make?

I'm a pretty social guy and I like the MMO aspect of this game so I will probably seek out a guild at some point but until we actually get some sort of idea if guilds actually 'do' anything in the game besides a group chat and a title tag, what's the point?

(Almost forgot about the guild bank but with the design of this game I find it highly unlikely there would be any possibility of theft.)

RElapse
07-04-2013, 10:50 PM
I would never consent to being told how to behave by a "coalition of major guilds." Who the hell cares how many members a guild slaps together "CLICK HERE TO JOIN!" style? That doesn't give them weight, or value, or integrity, it just gives them volume.

The community as a whole doesn't need a small group of people with no other qualification than "we stuck a guild tag after our name" trying to tell everyone else what to do. :p

100% agree

As GL for The Syndicate, I welcome any and all other GL's to contact me for any reason. Diplomacy and FRIENDLY rivalry is the best thing for most, if not all communities. Sharing information between GL is a positive thing if its for the betterment of the community, not to besmirch someones name. Its up to GL to look for and recognize bad apples, but also, not to hold it over there head (if it doesn't continue).

Leaders are not a muscle, Leaders are a mind

Chemosh
07-05-2013, 04:10 AM
i agree, this kind of thign sorts itself out. You cant really take it upon oneself to police the playerbase... but in the end its a guilds decision. If a player has done any of these things there will surely be posts on the forum for the guilds to search/ research. After that the problem takes care of itself in a way as guilds will then have thier own policy and will have to make the decision themselves... and of course pm's between leaders couldnt hurt.