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GambitKing
06-29-2013, 11:22 PM
Keywords that should be considered as more effects become more common, especially as future sets are released. Also completely new effects that could be considered for release or further after release.

Keywords in Hex will play a major role in shaping how the game is played and will heavily influence the competitive scene. Because Hex is an MMOTCG, and MMO's are inherently derived from from what is known as the RPG, it is only just, that more MMO/RPG related "Keywords" (Abilities/Status Effects) should at least be considere to give this game a more uniform keyword system when referring to effects that may become more commonly used in Hex. Also a lot of these effects can be used in tandem with typical fantasy lore, e.g. Ranged effect is used by ranger cards, splash used by dragon cards. They are split into two categories Positive Abilities/Status Effects and Negative Status effects or effects that should be considered.

NOTE: Obviously some may work better than others, some may already be included, and some may not works at all, but these are just suggestions.

Keywords - Positive Ablities/Status Effects:
Ranged - This troop can block flying creatures
Regen* - Troop regains X health per turn
Armor/Shield/Protect* - Damage dealt to this troop is reduced by X
Pierce - Damage dealt by this troop is unaffected by armour/shield/protect
Splash* - When this Troop attacks an enemy troop, it also deals X damage to X number of enemy troops.
Intimidate* - Target/Random Enemy troop deals X less damage
Unblockable - This troop cant be blocked
Invincible - Troop cannot be destroyed for X amount of turns
Dodge - Attacks/Blocks/Damage to this troop has X chance to miss
Reflect - Damage dealt to this troop is also dealt to target enemy troop/champion
Berserk* - Troop gains X attack, must attack every turn if possible, but controller is unable to choose target.
Volatile* - Troop deals X damage on death to enemy troop/champion
Bravery/Courage - When this troop attacks, it gains X attack (health) during the battle phase only. Not when blocking.
Defender - When this troop blocks, it gains X attack (health) during the battle phase only. Or when ally troop is damaged, this troop can take the damage instead.
Blessed/Holy - When this troop dies, controller gains X health

Keywords - Negative Status Effects:
Poison* - Target troop loses X health per turn
Slow - Target troop/action/artifact cannot resolve/use an effect or attack for X turns
Polymorph - Target troop becomes a 0 ATK 1HP Sheep for X turns
Cursed - When this troop dies, controller loses X damage
Paralyze - Target troop cannot attack
Petrify - Target troop cannot resolve/use an effect or attack. In X amount of turns is destroyed or if target troop is targeted for an attack, it is immediately destroyed.
Blind/Darkness - When attacking, Target troop has X chance to miss attack
Confuse - When attacking, target troop has X chance to attack ally troop
Disease - Target troop/champion cannot gain ATK or HP
Immobilize - Target Troop can attack, but its effects are negated.
Zombie/Reverse - Target Troop/Champion gains health instead of damage when attacked, and is dealt damaged instead of being healed when healed.

*These Keywords are tiered like Rage 1 or Rage 2, eg. Regen 1, Splash 2, Berserk 3, Volatile 4

What do you think of these Keywords(Ablilities/Status Effects) and can you think of anymore that should be considered? :D

Hmdrake
06-29-2013, 11:28 PM
A lit of the abilities don't work because there is not persistent damage in this game. A few others are already in.

GambitKing
06-29-2013, 11:29 PM
A lit of the abilities don't work because there is not persistent damage in this game. A few others are already in.

could give me examples of which ones wouldnt work?

Mr.Funsocks
06-29-2013, 11:49 PM
The "loses x health" type of things don't really work, since troops don't have "health". They have a defense stat, and if damage is over that stat, they die. Did you mean "gets -0/-X" instead?

HyenaNipples
06-29-2013, 11:52 PM
Poison and Regen would be the obvious ones.

But Hex is a TCG on the gameplay level, and mostly an MMO architecturally. Meaning that in the PvE side, the MMO play experience is a latticework upon which the TCG operates. So while many of these now traditional MMO mechanics are status quo, they won't necessarily work within the TCG gameplay. Why waste a card polymorphing when you have Murder or Inner Conflict? The pulse of card advantage can only support so many effects of use, so the attempt to jam in inferior effects just for the sake of them being MMO-fare will likely just lead to a pile of unused cards.

Hmdrake
06-30-2013, 12:06 AM
Regen, Armor, Pierce, and Poison don't work. Invincible is already a keyword. Paralyze and berserk are already on a couple cards without being keyworded. Personally, I hate percentage proc abilities.

edit: I do like the idea of cursed though.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 12:18 AM
The "loses x health" type of things don't really work, since troops don't have "health". They have a defense stat, and if damage is over that stat, they die. Did you mean "gets -0/-X" instead?

Health and defence are the exact same thing in relation to troops, i dont know the exact name though. Also "loses x health" is pretty straight forward, especially in relation with effects like poison, which would DEFINITELY work in HEX.


Poison and Regen would be the obvious ones.

But Hex is a TCG on the gameplay level, and mostly an MMO architecturally. Meaning that in the PvE side, the MMO play experience is a latticework upon which the TCG operates. So while many of these now traditional MMO mechanics are status quo, they won't necessarily work within the TCG gameplay. Why waste a card polymorphing when you have Murder or Inner Conflict? The pulse of card advantage can only support so many effects of use, so the attempt to jam in inferior effects just for the sake of them being MMO-fare will likely just lead to a pile of unused cards.

Yep poison and regen are obvious ones, but i think ranged should heavily be considered for countering flight troops.

Look these are things I think should be considered so not all of the may work, and there are clearly ones that fit more then others. Also this is an MMOTCG with large RPG influences, and i think most of the ones have said would definitely work in HEX.

Also if polymorphing was to be included, they could just as easily make an archetype around polymorphing, so its not as far-fetched as you say, for example one card polymorphs all the opponents cards, then another effect has the effect to destroy each polymorphed and deal X damage to the opponent for each, and many other examples. This kind of effect would more likely be PVE related than PVP, futhermore it is more a fun a effect thats not really supposed to be taken seriously, as seen in other games, and could easily be utilized in boss-only decks.


Regen, Armor, Pierce, and Poison don't work. Invincible is already a keyword. Paralyze and berserk are already on a couple cards without being keyworded. Personally, I hate percentage proc abilities.

edit: I do like the idea of cursed though.

Regen, Armor, Pierce and Poison would easily work. If a troop with regen lost a health/defence one turn, the next turn it would regain 1 health/defence, vice versa with poison. Armor would be easily done, for example a 2/2 troop with Armor 2 is attacked by a 3/3, the troop with 2/2 would only receive 1 damage instead of 3, and if that 3/3 had pierce it would deal 3 damage, completely ignoring the Armour 2.

Malicus
06-30-2013, 01:03 AM
Honestly I think this is too many keywords. Some of the effects you have suggested already happen in one form or another and a few are more suited to lane based card games and those with persistent damage.

If enough creatures have a particular trait then key wording is useful but if it is one or two then I believe it is better to state the abilities directly to prevent a steepening of the learning curve. Having to look up keywords is more annoying in my experience than simply reading the ability on a card.

Magic had about 3 key words in the early days I think and has far more now but they built up over time, dTCG makes it easier to look up keywords but not using them would be my preference and introducing more over time.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 01:05 AM
Honestly I think this is too many keywords. Some of the effects you have suggested already happen in one form or another and a few are more suited to lane based card games and those with persistent damage.

If enough creatures have a particular trait then key wording is useful but if it is one or two then I believe it is better to state the abilities directly to prevent a steepening of the learning curve. Having to look up keywords is more annoying in my experience than simply reading the ability on a card.

Magic had about 3 key words in the early days I think and has far more now but they built up over time, dTCG makes it easier to look up keywords but not using them would be my preference and introducing more over time.

Uhh yeh thats the point of suggesting these ones, as there will be more effects that would be more commonly used. plus i didnt say all of them have to be used, they're just suggestions.

Delrusant
06-30-2013, 02:05 AM
Bringing range would push the launch at leat 4 months back because they work on a balance without it and would need to rework everything. You hsould have presented your post as intoducing new keyword for further sets (as they are working on set 2 right now for the TCG designer)

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 04:54 AM
Bringing range would push the launch at leat 4 months back because they work on a balance without it and would need to rework everything. You hsould have presented your post as intoducing new keyword for further sets (as they are working on set 2 right now for the TCG designer)

Yep just edited it to include that. Plus i dont think trying to include ranged would push it as far as 4 months, cryptozoic could easily just add to cards, plus it wouldn't heavily affect the balance. All ranged does, is make the troop with ranged more viable to be used against flight troops.

Mr.Funsocks
06-30-2013, 11:15 AM
You can't really have "too many keywords", since each card has unique effects. Keywords just describe common effects. ie in MtG, the following keywords all started as "unique effects" that were spelled out:

defender, reach, fear, bury, deathtouch, equip, flash, haste, lifelink, vigilance, exile, fight, etc.

Keywords just describe commonly used effects, and allow for some combos/synergies by cards that can effect keywords.

Malicus
06-30-2013, 11:54 AM
You can't really have "too many keywords", since each card has unique effects. Keywords just describe common effects. ie in MtG, the following keywords all started as "unique effects" that were spelled out:

defender, reach, fear, bury, deathtouch, equip, flash, haste, lifelink, vigilance, exile, fight, etc.

Keywords just describe commonly used effects, and allow for some combos/synergies by cards that can effect keywords.

I think in a limited set too many key words is definitely a possibility. Magic has many key words now but also thousands of cards as key words built up over time, starting as full text and moving to key word as effects become more common is what I was suggesting rather than starting out with a list of key words new players need to memorize especially if the effects are uncommon enough that they aren't regularly coming across them.

Mr.Funsocks
06-30-2013, 02:42 PM
Oh, definitely, the first set probably has enough keywords for now. But as time goes on, it'll just grow.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 04:17 PM
I think in a limited set too many key words is definitely a possibility. Magic has many key words now but also thousands of cards as key words built up over time, starting as full text and moving to key word as effects become more common is what I was suggesting rather than starting out with a list of key words new players need to memorize especially if the effects are uncommon enough that they aren't regularly coming across them.

This list was just about suggestions that should be considered.


Oh, definitely, the first set probably has enough keywords for now. But as time goes on, it'll just grow.

Yeh that what was part my idea, but also new keywords they could include, especially ranged which would add more balance to the game against troops with flight.

Malicus
06-30-2013, 06:03 PM
This list was just about suggestions that should be considered.



Yeh that what was part my idea, but also new keywords they could include, especially ranged which would add more balance to the game against troops with flight.

I think you are jumping too far going straight to keyword and maybe that is part of how I react to such a list.

For me if you didn't focus on the keywords but instead on possible new abilities such a list makes more sense and doesn't come across as such a large change (that was how I saw it anyway).

Keywords should mostly build up over time from unique or uncommon abilities as they become more common though a set focused on one or two new keywords may also be interesting

Hmdrake
06-30-2013, 07:07 PM
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding something. A 2/2 with 2 armor is a 2/4. A 2/2 creature that took 1 damage a turn is a 2/1, no matter how many turns it takes that damage. a 2/2 that heals 1 at the beginning of each round is a 2/2, because there is no damage on it at the beginning of each round. Damage does not carry over from round to round. The only thing that has persistent damage is the champion.

I agree with Malicus that keywords should be developed from unique abilities that become more common, and that they should be introduced a few at a time in each set.

LargoLaGrande
06-30-2013, 08:10 PM
Except a 2/2 with armor 2 doesn't die when blocked by two 2/2s. The difference is slight and probably not worth it on a troop that has armor, but it would be interesting as a quick action that gave armor permanently, or a troop/constant/artifact that globally gave armor to your troops.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 08:22 PM
I think you are jumping too far going straight to keyword and maybe that is part of how I react to such a list.

For me if you didn't focus on the keywords but instead on possible new abilities such a list makes more sense and doesn't come across as such a large change (that was how I saw it anyway).

Keywords should mostly build up over time from unique or uncommon abilities as they become more common though a set focused on one or two new keywords may also be interesting

Well i did put "Abilities" in brackets, but your a somewhat right, i should have made this thread about new abilities/effects. Thing is keywords in Hex are not entirely about common effects, its more about effects that cryptizoic want to become staples with the game, and those very much can be unique effects. So if ranged became a keyword in hex because it is unique, it would also therefore become more commoe because they want it to be a staple effect in the game.

Maybe i should start a new thread on new effects in Hex? but thing is things like ranged and armor should become staples like speed and swiftstrike.


I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding something. A 2/2 with 2 armor is a 2/4. A 2/2 creature that took 1 damage a turn is a 2/1, no matter how many turns it takes that damage. a 2/2 that heals 1 at the beginning of each round is a 2/2, because there is no damage on it at the beginning of each round. Damage does not carry over from round to round. The only thing that has persistent damage is the champion.

I agree with Malicus that keywords should be developed from unique abilities that become more common, and that they should be introduced a few at a time in each set.

*Sigh* you dont understand.... heres an example, a 1/1 with armor battles another 1/1, the 1/1 with armor loses no health while the other 1/1 with no armour dies, this is because armor reduces damage by 1

Persisent damage does not matter, If had 7/7 that got blocked by 2/2, then he would regain 1 health per turn until it was full, that is the idea of regen, it only refills when the card is damaged, and it is not hadr to implement nor is it a effect that is problem, furthermore it is a very handy effect for stronger trooops.


Except a 2/2 with armor 2 doesn't die when blocked by two 2/2s. The difference is slight and probably not worth it on a troop that has armor, but it would be interesting as a quick action that gave armor permanently, or a troop/constant/artifact that globally gave armor to your troops.

Exactly my point, this guys clearly doesnt get it, if a 3/3 attacked it instead it would recieve 1 damage and so on. Its pretty much an effect that sustains the troops life for an extra turn or so depending on various factors, furthermore the effect is more potent with stronger troops or a higher armor rating.

LargoLaGrande
06-30-2013, 08:30 PM
*Sigh* you dont understand.... heres an example, a 1/1 with armor battles another 1/1, the 1/1 with armor loses no health while the other 1/1 with no armour dies, this is because armor reduces damage by 1 is that clear enough for you?

He understands, his point is that a 1/1 with armor 1 is exactly the same as a 1/2 (discounting non-lethal burn or multiple blockers).



Persisent damage does not matter, If had 7/7 that got blocked by 2/2, then he would regain 1 health per turn until it was full, that is the idea of regen, it only refills when the card is damaged, and it is not hadr to implement nor is it a effect that is problem, furthermore it is a very handy effect for stronger trooops.

But the 7/7 "regenerates" all his health at the start of your turn regardless. If your 7/7 is blocked by a 5/5 after combat its now a 7/7 with 5 damage, then you end your turn and at the start of your opponent's turn its a 7/7 with no damage again. Every troop in hex essentially has regen infinity as part of the game design.

Hmdrake
06-30-2013, 08:56 PM
Gambit, I don't think you're understanding what we mean by persistent damage. If a 7/7 takes 6 damage on a turn, that damage goes away at the end of the turn. If Largo's example helps, think of it as all creatures having infinite regen. I'm fairly certain that even in the case of multiple blockers, the damage is applied as a lump sum, and not individual chunks, so armor wouldn't help. A better phrasing would be "+0/+2 for each blocker." I'm happy to discuss cool keywords, but we need to come from the same understanding of the underlying rules.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 10:47 PM
He understands, his point is that a 1/1 with armor 1 is exactly the same as a 1/2 (discounting non-lethal burn or multiple blockers).

But the 7/7 "regenerates" all his health at the start of your turn regardless. If your 7/7 is blocked by a 5/5 after combat its now a 7/7 with 5 damage, then you end your turn and at the start of your opponent's turn its a 7/7 with no damage again. Every troop in hex essentially has regen infinity as part of the game design.

Look its just an idea, one of many, i really dont know why their is an argument about on of the many effects i have alreadys stated, if armor 1 i such a problem, then make it armor 2, armor is an effect that is supposed to reduce damage, furthermore these are just suggestions.

i did not know this, or if it be true, but i would prefer if troops retained damage from previous turns. If this is so, and if they were to include regen, they could make an more along the lines of, "this card gains 1 health per turn" or whatever



Gambit, I don't think you're understanding what we mean by persistent damage. If a 7/7 takes 6 damage on a turn, that damage goes away at the end of the turn. If Largo's example helps, think of it as all creatures having infinite regen. I'm fairly certain that even in the case of multiple blockers, the damage is applied as a lump sum, and not individual chunks, so armor wouldn't help. A better phrasing would be "+0/+2 for each blocker." I'm happy to discuss cool keywords, but we need to come from the same understanding of the underlying rules.

You're not clear on what you say as "persistent damage," if referring to the fact that all damage that is lost during a turn is regained, than you should have said that. I think you need to come to the understanding that not everyone knows the whole design and the rules of the game, moreover the fact that your arguing against one of many effects I had only stated as suggestions, all you had to say was regen would not work because all damage to troops is regained the next turn, simple as that, be clearer about your opinion next time.

Oaka23
06-30-2013, 11:35 PM
I think you need to come to the understanding that not everyone knows the whole design and the rules of the game

Go read the rules for Magic and you'll know the rules for Hex.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 11:55 PM
double post

Hmdrake
06-30-2013, 11:57 PM
I was clear. In fact, you quoted me as saying "damage doesn't carry over from round to round." I am trying to help you direct your efforts by helping you understand the rules a bit better. Because damage does not stick around, several abilities you had listed don't work. Now it's easier for us to focus on abilities that do work, such as Curse, which would be a fun way to turn your opponents troops into landmines.

As a side note, increasing the number attached to armor does not make it work. Armor is only a useful ability if you need to differentiate between damage from different sources, which is dramatically less useful when damage does not stay on the monster between rounds. Instead, increasing the monster's life is sufficient to do what you are trying for.

GambitKing
06-30-2013, 11:58 PM
Go read the rules for Magic and you'll know the rules for Hex.

I said this because I did not know about a game design in Hex, Im sorry that I dont know every little thing about Hex, I will learn the rules of Hex when the game comes, I dont play magic, so I dont need to the read the rules of magic.

Hmdrake
06-30-2013, 11:59 PM
Well Im sorry that I dont know every little thing about Hex, I will learn the rules of Hex when the game comes, I dont play magic, so I dont need to the read the rules of magic.

It's pretty fruitless to try to modify the rules for a game when you haven't bothered to learn the rules in the first place.

Justinkp
07-01-2013, 12:02 AM
Well Im sorry that I dont know every little thing about Hex, I will learn the rules of Hex when the game comes, I dont play magic, so I dont need to the read the rules of magic.

The basic rules are almost exactly the same so if you want to make speculative posts it would be smart to know the basic rules. It would also be smart not to get defensive when people correct your errors if you actually want people to discuss your topic. Thanking the people who correct you and modifying your suggestions with the new information will make discussion more likely than acting belligerent with people who simply corrected you.

GambitKing
07-01-2013, 12:11 AM
I was clear. In fact, you quoted me as saying "damage doesn't carry over from round to round." I am trying to help you direct your efforts by helping you understand the rules a bit better. Because damage does not stick around, several abilities you had listed don't work. Now it's easier for us to focus on abilities that do work, such as Curse, which would be a fun way to turn your opponents troops into landmines.

As a side note, increasing the number attached to armor does not make it work. Armor is only a useful ability if you need to differentiate between damage from different sources, which is dramatically less useful when damage does not stay on the monster between rounds. Instead, increasing the monster's life is sufficient to do what you are trying for.


It's pretty fruitless to try to modify the rules for a game when you haven't bothered to learn the rules in the first place.

I did not quote you, i quoted the other guy who explained it to me. Dont patronize just because i do not know the rule of magic, you need to understand that not everyone has magic background, Im not going to waste my time reading about game that I having to do with, my suggestions are because I like rpgs and because i think some of the effects i mentioned would be cool.

Ok you dont think armor would, big woop, your opinion, i think its cool, just because I think its cool does not mean cryptizoic will implement it. Once again its a suggestion, that is one of many, and I can have an opinion about it, just because you do not think it would work does not mean every1 will agree.

Do not come to my thread and bash my opinion because I dont understand everything in Hex or because I am unwilling to learn the magic rules, this Hex not magic, im here to talk about Hex not magic, not everyone is a magic player and that not everyone is going to read the rules.

GambitKing
07-01-2013, 12:15 AM
The basic rules are almost exactly the same so if you want to make speculative posts it would be smart to know the basic rules. It would also be smart not to get defensive when people correct your errors if you actually want people to discuss your topic. Thanking the people who correct you and modifying your suggestions with the new information will make discussion more likely than acting belligerent with people who simply corrected you.

This post I just about my ideas and what i think would be cool, clearly not everything will work that I have stated. I never intended to read the magic rules before I played this game, I will learn the rules of Hex when the game comes out. Btw what was my error, simply because i did not know of one design in the game, it was not him whom corrected me it was LargoLaGrande and I already stated that he corrected me.

Look Im not going to read the magic rules. I will read the Hex rules when they are released because thats the game i will be playing. This is definitely a speculative because it is my idea and opinion as a non-magic player, and Im entitled to play, talk and discuss things about Hex without knowing anything about magic.

Hmdrake
07-01-2013, 12:30 AM
Post #19 you quote my post about damage not carrying over from round to round. You then sigh and tell me I am the one who didn't understand.

I am not asking you to learb the rules for magic, I am asking you to learn the rules for hex. It will be greatly beneficial in any conversation you have about the rules for hex, and make you look a little less silly. Seriously, the forums are full of the people who will probably form the highest tiered guilds in the game, and you're not portraying yourself very well. Take a few breaths, learn the hex rules, and we'll be appy to brainstorm with you.

Justinkp
07-01-2013, 12:35 AM
This post I just about my ideas and what i think would be cool, clearly not everything will work that I have stated. I never intended to read the magic rules before I played this game, I will learn the rules of Hex when the game comes out. Btw what was my error, simply because i did not know of one design in the game, it was not him whom corrected me it was LargoLaGrande and I already stated that he corrected me.

Look Im not going to read the magic rules. I will read the Hex rules when they are released because thats the game i will be playing. This is definitely a speculative because it is my idea and opinion as a non-magic player, and Im entitled to play, talk and discuss things about Hex without knowing anything about magic.

The first 4 replies you got all attempted to explain errors you made (though they didn't necessarily explain well). You're entitled to post whatever you want. And we're entitled to post any criticisms we want, which you don't seem to be taking very well. I'm done here, its pointless trying to have a discussion with someone about rules additions when they refuse to even learn the rules and become incredibly defensive when any criticism is made.

If you want to have fruitful discussions I suggest you alter your posting style and learn the rules as best you can. Suggesting alterations when you don't know rules you easily could is pretty pointless.

Good luck.

Justinkp
07-01-2013, 12:38 AM
Post #19 you quote my post about damage not carrying over from round to round. You then sigh and tell me I am the one who didn't understand.

I am not asking you to learb the rules for magic, I am asking you to learn the rules for hex. It will be greatly beneficial in any conversation you have about the rules for hex, and make you look a little less silly. Seriously, the forums are full of the people who will probably form the highest tiered guilds in the game, and you're not portraying yourself very well. Take a few breaths, learn the hex rules, and we'll be appy to brainstorm with you.

I suggest listening to Hmdrake. I think both of us are just trying to help you here. So far your attitude in this thread isn't doing you any favors.

GambitKing
07-01-2013, 12:50 AM
Post #19 you quote my post about damage not carrying over from round to round. You then sigh and tell me I am the one who didn't understand.

I am not asking you to learb the rules for magic, I am asking you to learn the rules for hex. It will be greatly beneficial in any conversation you have about the rules for hex, and make you look a little less silly. Seriously, the forums are full of the people who will probably form the highest tiered guilds in the game, and you're not portraying yourself very well. Take a few breaths, learn the hex rules, and we'll be appy to brainstorm with you.

"*Sigh* you dont understand.... heres an example, a 1/1 with armor battles another 1/1, the 1/1 with armor loses no health while the other 1/1 with no armour dies, this is because armor reduces damage by 1"

I said nothing about damage carrying over to the next turn, that was on the next page when someone else corrected me. Look I did not know of one thing, that damage did not carry over to the next turn, and once again I will learn the rules when its alpha time. Also stop patronizing your only fueling this argument, My only tcg background is YuGiOH, and im just stating my opinions on things that would be cool to be implemnted, ok regen doesnt, fine by, ok you dont think armor would work fine by me, these just my ideas and opinions, and they dont have to be applied at all in the game, no need to start an argument over it.

Edit: Plus there are no solid rules on hex yet, as they game has not be released yet, now obviously you can learn some of them by watching the game feeds, or read some of the articles on them, but they're not final till release.

Hmdrake
07-01-2013, 12:54 AM
Ah, troll, got it. Thread burying time.