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Corpselocker
06-30-2013, 09:08 PM
I thought that token generators would get inspire effects, but I guess I read something along the way the convinced me otherwise. The language looks like it should support inspired tokens. It makes sense for them to be inspired. Something, though, poisoned my thought process on this.

I just want to make sure as we plot decks and champions. Do all tokens gain inspire effects?

Gwaer
06-30-2013, 09:17 PM
For the most part the idea seems to be that there aren't any "tokens", anything created is an actual card, that can be shuffled into your hand, gain all effects it qualifies for and whatever else. That's why they have costs and such.

Grissnap
06-30-2013, 09:22 PM
Is the token a troop? Does the token have a cost? Is the cost greater or equal to the inspire effect? If all the answers are yes, then yes, the troop would receive the inspire effect.

Inspire's wording is: "As another troop with cost equal to or greater than this troop's cost enters play under your control"

Notice it says enters play, not played. The difference between "troop enters play" and "play troop" is the first one would work any time a troop is put into play, whether by playing from your hand or a token generator. If the card were to say "when you play ~" that means you are playing the card from your hand.

Also to note, the difference in wording between "as enters play" and "when enters play". "As enters play" signifies that the powers are added to the troop while on the chain, before they are actually in play. "When" signifies that the power happens after the card is in play. In this case, it doesn't make a difference.

Going back to whether token troops can get the inspire powers. Let's look at it in this scenario: the Ardent hero that puts a 6/6, 7 cost squirrel titan into play uses her champion power. You have a Lord Alexander, the Courageous in play that states: "As another troop with cost equal to or greater than Alexander's cost enters play under your control, it gets permanent Speed". So the 7 cost troop through the champion power enters play (which meets the first trigger criteria for Lord Alexander's power), then we check to see if the cost is greater than or equal to Lord Alexander's, which it is, so that meets the second criteria. Since all criteria are met, the Squirrel Titan will receive Speed.

Zomnivore
06-30-2013, 09:45 PM
Inspire affects should probably affect tokens, they have a cost so its not like they don't have a limiting factor on who would buff them (they can be shuffled back into your hand and thats why they have a cost...if you'd want to play your token out instead of w/e)

Rycajo
06-30-2013, 10:39 PM
We have not seen any tokens yet. As others have said, all created troops are actual cards being created and can thereafter enter any zone where a regular card is permitted. None of us can say for certain than created creature cards will be inspired, but I sure would expect they will.

KaosSoul
06-30-2013, 11:53 PM
We have not seen any tokens yet. As others have said, all created troops are actual cards being created and can thereafter enter any zone where a regular card is permitted. None of us can say for certain than created creature cards will be inspired, but I sure would expect they will.

90% of the Dark Grey card are Token, 10% left is PVE AI Exclusive and Champions

From my point of view at least

Dark Grey > Token
White> Common
Green > Uncommon
Blue > Rare
Red > Legendary
Orange > Promo

Epsilon
07-01-2013, 01:07 AM
They did not in the livestream.

Grissnap
07-01-2013, 01:11 AM
If my memory does not betray me (which it frequently does, freaking traitor) they didn't play any tokens in the inspire deck to get inspired. Plus, as we did see in the livestream, the inspire was a little buggy.

GambitKing
07-01-2013, 01:16 AM
The tokens are pretty much actual cards, so as they are pretty much actual cards and do I remember reading something about this, Im pretty sure they will affected by Inspire effects.

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 09:06 AM
90% of the Dark Grey card are Token, 10% left is PVE AI Exclusive and Champions

When I said we have not seen any tokens yet, I meant that everything is actually a card. There is no need to put a "token" into play because everything can be in the form of a card. As a community we can continue to call these created troops "tokens", but that just causes confusion as they are not the same as tokens in a game like MtG.

Gwaer
07-01-2013, 09:29 AM
Dark grey is not a token, it's a card created by an effect, or an AI only card.

As far as I know, this game doesn't have tokens in the sense that you're using them.

In magic if a token is sent to the graveyard it just disappears, in this game if a grey card is sent to the graveyard it actually goes there and you can use things to pull it back out and get it back in play.

In magic if you have 1/1 counters on a card and send it back to someone hand, when it is played again it doesn't have the counters its stats are reduced to base.
in this game, it comes out with the same stats it had when it was sent back to your hand. The cards themselves are changing.

If you created a "token"(which in this case is just putting a card into play) with a 9 cost in an inspire deck, it would gain the inspire effects of everything with a 9 cost or less.

Vorpal
07-01-2013, 09:36 AM
If tokens are cards of the type troop, then yes.

If tokens are not cards of the type troop, then no.

KaosSoul
07-01-2013, 09:41 AM
Dark grey is not a token, it's a card created by an effect, or an AI only card.

As far as I know, this game doesn't have tokens in the sense that you're using them.

In magic if a token is sent to the graveyard it just disappears, in this game if a grey card is sent to the graveyard it actually goes there and you can use things to pull it back out and get it back in play.

In magic if you have 1/1 counters on a card and send it back to someone hand, when it is played again it doesn't have the counters its stats are reduced to base.
in this game, it comes out with the same stats it had when it was sent back to your hand. The cards themselves are changing.

If you created a "token"(which in this case is just putting a card into play) with a 9 cost in an inspire deck, it would gain the inspire effects of everything with a 9 cost or less.

so we just have to Detach from MTG, a card created by an effect seems pretty much a Token to me, Token are handled differently in Hex thats all? im using token has a term to label these card, and im sure im not the only one, i might be wrong i might be right we will only know when CZE tells us.

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 10:17 AM
I know using the term token is convenient, KaosSoul, but I am hoping CZE or the community can come up with a better term to avoid confusion just like the one being discussed in this thread. Oh well, as the game is not even out yet, there is still plenty of time to work out these things.

grey0one
07-01-2013, 10:19 AM
Call it what it is: a game length card. That's the only difference between it and any other card.

Corpselocker
07-01-2013, 10:49 AM
Sorry if my old MtG term token added to the confusion. Some champs and spells create 'token' or better said, 'a creature'. Just trying to make surer those generated critters get inspired. Thanks for everyone helping parse out the language.

jgsugden
07-01-2013, 11:14 AM
We're talking about a nuance of a rule that has yet to be finalized. I think the intent, generally, is for the cards that are equivalent to MtG tokens to be treated like actual cards for all purposes. However, even if that is the intent now, they might change it before Alpha, during Alpha, during Beta or after release.

Patience.

snarvid
07-01-2013, 01:05 PM
Token implies certain things about a permanent, though... it doesn't have the same reality as other permanents, vanishing almost immediately upon leaving play. I don't believe this is the case with... ummm... derivative cards? Progeny cards? whatever we want to call them in Hex. I think, for example, if you created a worker bot through your worker bot factory & then it died, it would go to your graveyard like any other permanent.

Why I think that, I don't quite know. Probably hear-say.

Mr.Funsocks
07-01-2013, 03:10 PM
No, you're right snarvid. They are cards, like any other.

Corpselocker
07-01-2013, 04:27 PM
Yes, no one has made any argument to the contrary. Cards are just cards and they come into play. I'm good :)

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 06:44 PM
One of the problems is CZE has put many types of cards under the Grey rarity - created troops, transformed troops, other created cards (booby traps), and champions. If that were all I would think CZE is labeling anything Grey that can't be in a collection and can't be built into a deck.

But then we have the Spectral Tiger, which is also Grey...

Bossett
07-01-2013, 06:49 PM
I think Grey just means it can't be drawn from a booster - i.e. it has no 'rarity' in the common/uncommon/rare sense.

I think 'tokens' are considered 0 cost, but I wonder if there'll be some effect that can artificially increase cost; a constant that says something like "As cards you control enter play, they cost 1 more" - it's got a clear disadvantage but may be amazing in an Inspire deck.

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 08:46 PM
Bossett, in Magic a token has no cost, and it doesn't need one. In Hex, troops that are created by other cards are not referred to as tokens by the cards that create them. And so far, I believe all of these troops have a cost higher than 0. Battle hoppers cost 1 (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Battle-Hopper/img/dl_cards/caDWnmF.jpg), Vampire King's vampires cost 2 (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Vampire/img/dl_cards/z9c0qim.jpg), zombies cost 3 (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Zombie/img/dl_cards/I0VKW9T.jpg), etc.

Erep
07-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Is the token a troop? Does the token have a cost? Is the cost greater or equal to the inspire effect? If all the answers are yes, then yes, the troop would receive the inspire effect.

Inspire's wording is: "As another troop with cost equal to or greater than this troop's cost enters play under your control"

Notice it says enters play, not played. The difference between "troop enters play" and "play troop" is the first one would work any time a troop is put into play, whether by playing from your hand or a token generator. If the card were to say "when you play ~" that means you are playing the card from your hand.

Also to note, the difference in wording between "as enters play" and "when enters play". "As enters play" signifies that the powers are added to the troop while on the chain, before they are actually in play. "When" signifies that the power happens after the card is in play. In this case, it doesn't make a difference.

Going back to whether token troops can get the inspire powers. Let's look at it in this scenario: the Ardent hero that puts a 6/6, 7 cost squirrel titan into play uses her champion power. You have a Lord Alexander, the Courageous in play that states: "As another troop with cost equal to or greater than Alexander's cost enters play under your control, it gets permanent Speed". So the 7 cost troop through the champion power enters play (which meets the first trigger criteria for Lord Alexander's power), then we check to see if the cost is greater than or equal to Lord Alexander's, which it is, so that meets the second criteria. Since all criteria are met, the Squirrel Titan will receive Speed.

Going back to the original question about inspire, I agree with Grissnap's language interpretation, however, I don't think that is how it will actually work in the game. This is because we have the champion Lady Elizabeth Stewart. She creates a card and puts it into the hand. Because she is a Human Diamond Champion, it stands to reason she is made to synergize with inspire, providing a troop that can be inspired. If this were not the case, it does not seem unbalanced for her to put the created card directly into play, in comparison to Polonius' power, so it would imply a secondary benifit to adding the created creature to the hand, like getting inspired, which would imply Mammoth Squirrel Titans would not. (I'm not sure if this was the same conflict in card design that gave Corpselocker pause on this ruling, but it was for me.)


Also keep in mind created creatures have cost because all cards need to have cost, as if they get bounced by a different card they need a cost to help prevent "degenerate" loops.

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 09:54 PM
Would this mean that copies of a troop created by Replicator's Gambit are not inspired? Only the one card was played from hand, while the other cards are created and put into play. That would seem rather odd.

I can see how Lady Elizabeth can create doubt here, and perhaps the wording on Inspire needs to be revamped if it is not meant to inspire created troops. But as the wording stands now it doesn't make any logical sense for these troops to not be inspired.

Erep
07-01-2013, 10:01 PM
Well, if my interpretation is correct, actually all copies made by Replicator's Gambit would still be inspired.

This is because the card would be played, and the effect it gained from Replicator's Gambit would trigger, then the inspire effects would stack on top of that. Then inspire triggers would resolve, and the card would copy itself with added inspire powers.

If I were wrong, they would actually gain the inspire triggers twice; once when the original card comes into play, and once when the copy comes into play.

Assuming I am correct though, I agree a language change for inspire is needed.

Rycajo
07-01-2013, 11:45 PM
I see. Your interpretation could be correct. And double inspire would be quite crazy. I suppose we shall see.

Grissnap
07-01-2013, 11:55 PM
@Erep - The reason she is created and put into hand is that she would be pretty bonkers if she was just put into play. A free 3/3 for 0resources on turn 5 is insane value in limited. It would be very imbalanced. That is why they make the card go into hand rather than in play. 8 charges is a lot harder to get, and by that time a 6/6 with Crush is not nearly as bad. I think you might be over-thinking too hard.

@Rycajo - It depends on what you mean. If you have a card of lower or equal cost with inspire already in play, then the original card and every copy would get inspired. However, if you mean to say that you play an inspire troop do all the replicator's bandit copies inspire each other? Unfortunately, the answer is no. The original copy would be in play, and it would inspire all of the copies, but the copies themselves would not inspire each other. The reason for this is that the inspire trigger is "As enters play" and not "When enters play", which is before the copies are actually in play. Since the copies are not in play, their individual inspire trigger will not activate because, unless otherwise stated, troop abilities will only be active when in play. I don't know if I am explaining this right, so I'll use an example:

You Replicator's Gambit a Cerulean Mirror Knight who has the power - "As another troop with cost equal to or greater than this troop's cost enters play under your control it gets permanent "When this troop deals damage to an opposing champion, draw a card." "

The next turn, you draw the card you just put back in your deck (what luck!). You play the Cerulean Mirror Knight. This is how it will play out:

1) Cerulean Mirror Knight enters play, the added effect from Replicator's Gambit ("When this troop enters play, if you played it from your hand, create six copies of it and put them into play.") triggers.
2) The effect goes on the chain/stack.
3) The effect resolves, 6 copies of the Cerulean Mirror Knight are put into play.
4) As they enter play, the effect from the original Cerulean Mirror Knight triggers, adding the effect to all 6 copies.
5) The 6 Cerulean Mirror Knights enter play.

As you can see, 5) comes after 4) and so the Knights were not in play at the timing needed to add their effect to each other.

Hope that makes sense.

Erep
07-02-2013, 12:05 AM
Grissnap, the problem isn't with the original copy inspiring the created copies. The problem comes from there already being a troop with inspire on the board before the Replicator's Gambit troop is cast.

For example, you have Ruby Pyromancer on the board, and a Time Bug that has had Replicator's Gambit cast on it.

Play Time Bug,
Replicators Gambit triggers
Ruby Pyromancer triggers
Ruby Pyromancer resolves (2/1 Time Bug)
Replicator's Gambit resolves (7 2/1 Time Bugs)
Ruby Pyromancer triggers again
Ruby Pyromancer resolves agin (1 2/1 Time Bug, 6 3/1 Time Bugs)

This isnt the most broken example, but it doesn't really make sense, and would be weird in a lot of cases (of course you should win if you get Replicator's Gambit off anyways, so it is hard to say this is more broken, but at the least it doesn't really make sense).

Grissnap
07-02-2013, 12:12 AM
I think you might be confused on how inspire works.

Inspire doesn't give the other cards the inspire power.

Ruby Pyromancer: Inspire - As another troop with cost equal to or greater than this troop's cost enters play under your control, it gets permanent +1 /+0 .

The troop that enters play only gets permanent +1/+0, not permanent +1/+0 and "Inspire - As another troop with cost equal to or greater than this troop's cost enters play under your control, it gets permanent +1 /+0 ."

Edit: Actually I don't know if that's what you were saying, I am in fact a bit confused on what you were saying. So instead, using the 3 cards you provided, I'll write out how the chain will be resolved.

In play: 1 Ruby Pyromancer
You play: Time Bug -let's call it Time Bug' (prime) with addition power provided by Replicator's Bandit.

1) As Time Bug' enters play it gains permanent +1/+0 (+2/+1 Time Bug' on chain still)
2) Time Bug' enters play. (2/1 Time Bug' in play)
3) Replicator's Bandit power triggers, goes on the chain. (Because it says, "When this troop enters play")
4) Trigger resolves, putting 6 2/1 Time Bugs into play.
5) As Time Bugs are put into play, Ruby Pyromancer's power triggers giving them permanent +1/+0. (6 3/1 Time Bugs, still on chain)
6) 6 3/1 Time Bugs enter play.

Result: You have Time Bug' at 2/1 and 6 3/1 Time Bugs and 1 Ruby Pyromancer in play.

Edit: Yeap the above is wrong will add edits in bold for correct chain explanation. I totally forgot its an exact copy.

Erep
07-02-2013, 12:17 AM
No, Replicator's Gambit copies any modifications made to the card, so it will copy the +1/0, meaning that it will already have the power that the inspire effect gives, meaning there is no need for it to be inspired directly by the troop with inspire

Grissnap
07-02-2013, 12:26 AM
Yep, okay, I figured it out now. Totally forgot that its an exact copy, so yes, it will have been a 2/1 copy when it gets copied, and they will get inspired again so the 6 copies will be 3/1.

Nice.

Arbiter
07-02-2013, 05:16 AM
One of the problems is CZE has put many types of cards under the Grey rarity - created troops, transformed troops, other created cards (booby traps), and champions. If that were all I would think CZE is labeling anything Grey that can't be in a collection and can't be built into a deck.

But then we have the Spectral Tiger, which is also Grey...

They have stated that the grey colouring for Spectral Tiger is incorrect, it should have the promo colour. Grey is basically cards that get removed from the deck at end of game.

Rycajo
07-02-2013, 08:39 AM
Thanks Arbiter, that does help clear things up. So basically, grey cards are the Uncollectibles, as they are not part of your collection. This even works for the basic source cards, which are grey. Even though you can build a deck with them, they are technically uncollectible and would not be counted in a list of cards you own.

And as far as the inspire question, seems like having a couple inspire creatures out (or Blessing of the Fallen with a few in inspiring cards in the graveyard) makes Replicator's Gambit even more of a bomb. If/when we see some kind of tutoring card, Replicator's Gambit will become a very interesting combo.

Corpselocker
07-02-2013, 10:33 AM
(I'm not sure if this was the same conflict in card design that gave Corpselocker pause on this ruling, but it was for me.

Yes, indeed. That card got me thinking :)