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Typhon
07-08-2013, 05:48 AM
We move past Killer Mutant's General Strategies in the HEX Profiteering (Part 1 (http://www.hexrealms.com/content.php?110-Hex-Profiteering-General-Strategies-(Part-1)) & Part 2 (http://www.hexrealms.com/content.php?112-Hex-Profiteering-General-Strategies-(Part-2))) to bring you the meat: Beating the Rake!


The rake is the difference between the cost of a booster draft and the value of the results of that draft - The prizes and leftover cards.

The cost of any draft is: 3 boosters + $1 in platinum, per player.
The value received is: 12 boosters in prizes and the cards from 24 boosters.

The difference in these two values is the rake. An open booster is worth significantly less that a sealed booster. Additionally, the platinum fees paid by all the players is a sunk cost that goes to CZE's bottom line


[Read More on HEXRealms.com (http://www.hexrealms.com/content.php?115-Hex-Profiteering-Beating-the-Rake-(part-1))]

noragar
07-08-2013, 06:49 AM
"In a draft which awards 12 boosters (ie; 8-4) and 8 players, the average booster per player prize is 8 / 12 = 0.67."

Shouldn't this be 12 / 8 = 1.50? Not sure whether that affects any of the calculations beyond that point.

Killer.Mutant
07-08-2013, 06:59 AM
Argh! Thanks for the spot, you're right of course. Fortunately I don't have to redo any of the spreadsheets or graphs for that article as I used formula for the draft as a whole not individuals.

Aethnen
07-08-2013, 05:02 PM
Interesting article. Amazing how much the rake goes up based on the value of the boosters going down.

Niedar
07-08-2013, 09:00 PM
There is one thing not taken into account, the booster value that is input into the tournament is worth less than the boosters that are given as prizes as it is assumed they will have a chance to be primal while the boosters used as entry are known not to be primal.

Great work though, I enjoyed reading it.

Shadowelf
07-08-2013, 10:33 PM
Interesting info, thx for providing it :)

Jarric
07-09-2013, 01:09 AM
Nice Article Good Math work. The only issue with "going infinite" in this game vs a RL card game is dependent on whether or not you can buy boosters with Plat. If you can't then you can never attain this due to the fact that you won't be able to buy your boosters and pay you entry fee with the plat you get for selling the cards on the AH.

Killer.Mutant
07-09-2013, 09:29 AM
Interesting article. Amazing how much the rake goes up based on the value of the boosters going down.

Yes, because the $1 fee is constant and not a percentage the prize pool can't maintain pace with the cost as booster value drops.


There is one thing not taken into account, the booster value that is input into the tournament is worth less than the boosters that are given as prizes as it is assumed they will have a chance to be primal while the boosters used as entry are known not to be primal.


I'm also not considering the value of "treasure chests" in boosters (adds some value to booster drafts vs constructed). Given we're already dealing with a bunch of assumptions and estimations I'm ok with lumping all those unknowns into "rounding error".


Nice Article Good Math work. The only issue with "going infinite" in this game vs a RL card game is dependent on whether or not you can buy boosters with Plat. If you can't then you can never attain this due to the fact that you won't be able to buy your boosters and pay you entry fee with the plat you get for selling the cards on the AH.

It would be pretty strange if you can't trade/transfer boosters in some way - Even MTGO has this and CZE is going a step further with an auction house.

Even if boosters aren't transferable it's still possible to go infinite it's just much less efficient. You can still sell singles in the auction house and use those funds to buy boosters directly from CZE and pay the $1 fee. Selling boosters is much better, but worst case you open boosters and sell the singles (or do quick rare drafts if that's at least break-even).

Aethnen
07-09-2013, 02:50 PM
Sorry, I don't keep up on every detail of the news but is CZE saying you can't use the packs you win as entry to the next draft? What kind of crap is that?

<snip>

edit: Nevermind, I misread. I'm an idiot.

KiraForce
07-09-2013, 02:57 PM
Sorry, I don't keep up on every detail of the news but is CZE saying you can't use the packs you win as entry to the next draft? What kind of crap is that?

I must have missed the threads where people complained about this cause I can't believe people wouldn't be up in arms over that. I know that makes me re-think my whole commitment to this game. My whole purpose on MTGO is to win enough boosters to where I'm paying for, at most. a pack and the rake in most drafts after playing swiss. (Too much variability for me to go infinite in MTGO).

Is that what "primal" packs mean?

You keep your boosters, but you can only use unopened boosters for draft (using cards in the draft requires them to be opened first, obs.). Primal packs are packs filled only with rare and legendary rarity cards and equipment (not sure on the equipment, but I think so).

Mr.Funsocks
07-09-2013, 02:58 PM
Sorry, I don't keep up on every detail of the news but is CZE saying you can't use the packs you win as entry to the next draft? What kind of crap is that?

No, this is never said anywhere by anyone. I don't know where you even got that from in this thread...

Primal Packs are packs that will occasionally appear instead of a normal pack when you buy them from CZE. These packs have all rare/legendary.

Aethnen
07-09-2013, 03:09 PM
No, this is never said anywhere by anyone. I don't know where you even got that from in this thread...

Primal Packs are packs that will occasionally appear instead of a normal pack when you buy them from CZE. These packs have all rare/legendary.

Woo, thank goodness I just misread. Thanks for the clarification.

Punk
07-09-2013, 04:56 PM
Let's first start with the premise and main verbiage used: Rake.

The "Rake," otherwise known as the "Pot Rake," is how Casino's make money off of live table play; online and in-person. The Rake is a percentage of each pot taken and given to the house. Here is a great definition:


Rake is the scaled commission fee taken by a cardroom operating a poker game. It is generally 2.5 to 5 percent of the pot in each poker hand, up to a predetermined maximum amount. There are also other non-percentage ways for a casino to take the rake. Some cardrooms will not take a percentage rake in any community card poker game like Texas hold 'em when a hand does not have a flop. This is called "no flop, no drop".
Poker is a player-versus-player game, and the house does not wager against its players (unlike blackjack or roulette), so this fee is the principal mechanism to generate revenues.

It is primarily levied by an establishment that supplies the necessary services for the game to take place. In online poker it covers the various costs of operation such as support, software and personnel. In traditional brick and mortar casinos it is also used to cover the costs involved with providing a dealer (though in many places tips provide the bulk of a dealer's income) for the game, support staff (from servers to supervisors), use of gaming equipment, and the physical building in which the game takes place.

To win when playing in poker games where the house takes a cut, a player must not only beat opponents, but also the financial drain of the rake.

Killer Mutant describes the Rake as the following:


The rake is the difference between the cost of a booster draft and the value of the results of that draft - The prizes and leftover cards.

There is no rake and you are not playing against the house[*1]. What he is actually calculating is the effective value of the cards opened and is trying to apply this inconsistent (and unknown) variable to an equation that would determine the amount of profit needed to be attained to go "infinite," or to become self sustaining. As of right now, there is no price nor market for Hex cards due to the game not being out, so it is impossible to calculate any variable as an average or consistent variable to make this equation work.

Using the $1 variable as your average effective value per booster pack that is opened will skew all estimated results dramatically. The Effective Value of an opened booster pack for any new set of Magic: The Gathering is right around $0.50, on average[*2]. The retail price for Booster packs of MTG are $4 each, so this would make your estimate of $1 about 400% higher ($1:$2 vs $0.50:$4).

*1: The reason why I say you are not playing against the house is because Cryptozoic is paying out 12 booster packs when they only collect $8. The payout is not only higher than the entry, but you are not having your winnings Raked by Cryptozoic.

*2: MTGO Prices.


In the poker game of life, women are the rake. - Rounders (1998)

I personally love this movie and definitely appreciated the quote! Again, "Rake" is not being used properly, so the quote makes no sense used in this context. Women are not the difference between the cost and value of two things, instead the quote is referring to Women constantly taking a percentage of your earnings.


Pokerstars hosts 9 player online single table tournaments of the following buy-in structures:

Buy-In--Rake--Rake%
$1.29--$.21--16.3%
$3.11--$.39--12.5%
$6.37--$.63--9.9%
$13.70--$1.30--9.5%


Note: Obviously, the graph can't be simply copy/pasted over.. and I'm lazy.

When it comes to tournaments, they are usually setup in an X + Y format. X represents the cost and/or prerequisite needed to enter, while the Y represents the entry fee. Much like a booster draft where X would be the packs you bring to the table and Y being the $1 entry fee.

I usually played in $5 + $2 tournaments Poker Tournaments. These tournaments have a fixated amount and the entry fee goes to the house. The entry fee is set as a substitute of a Rake. If these tournaments had a Rake, then there would be no entry fee and the $5 you bring to the table would have a percentage taken out per hand. The flat, static entry fee is a replacement.

You can find the current Pokerstarts table rakes here:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

lamaros
07-09-2013, 11:26 PM
What is this? As above has indicated, a very misleading (and inaccurate) article.

The plat cost goes back out in prizes too. There is no rake or 'rake'.

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 12:43 PM
Of course there is rake. And rake has nothing to do with "playing against the house". You're not "playing against the house" in poker either. Rake is a commission. When you're playing against the house, as in blackjack the house has an edge. These are two completely different things.

Booster drafts are not ring games (aka cash games), they're tournaments. The rake in a tournament is generally referred to as "fee" or "entry fee" and sometimes collectively as "rake" when poker is considered as a whole so I am taking a little artistic license by calling it "rake" and I feel justified in doing so as rake is far more clear as to what exactly is going on and is far less egregious than your attempts to compare tournaments with ring games.

What do you think the $1 entry fee is if not a fee? However, unlike poker tournaments we do not have a clear payout table (and I included example buy-in and fee schedules from PokerStars tournaments - Did you skip that part?) because some of the value is returned in booster prizes and some in the value of the singles pulled from packs. If we were dealing with ghost drafts then everything would be much more clear.

But we're not, we're describing a system where:

- Some value goes in (24 boosters and $8 in fess)
- Some value comes out (24 open boosters and 12 boosters)

If there is a difference between those two values then the players have lost some value. That value doesn't just disappear, that value has gone to CZE. That value is "rake". If you want to play another booster draft and you didn't win any boosters, you need to go buy more boosters and pay another fee. This is how CZE makes money. This is rake.

By saying, "there is no rake" you're assuming that the value going into a draft ($8 in fees and 24 boosters) is equivalent to the value coming out of the draft (24 open boosters and 12 boosters). That is certainly possible but extremely unlikely. Assuming boosters are worth $2 (obviously a problematic assumption) In order for this to be true, an open booster would need to be worth on average $1.33. That probably is not going to happen. What are open boosters worth in MTGO again?

And sure, I use 50% open value in my sample calculations. I also included charts for a variety of values, down to 10%. If you are correct and opened boosters are actually going to be worth around $.25 then the rake will actually be extremely high, far higher than any poker tournament (well, except maybe some live charity tournaments which can be crazy).

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 01:31 PM
To put it another way, if there was no rake then all that would be required to go infinite (play break-even) would be to be an average player and win an average number of boosters per draft (1.5 boosters). However, going infinite is rightly considered difficult and not at all average. Why? Because, as with poker beating the rake is hard. That's why poker is filled with "fpp pros" aka "rakeback pros" who about break-even in the game itself and make money from promotional value, ie rakeback, VIP programs, deposit bonuses etc.

Yoss
07-10-2013, 01:55 PM
KM has good concepts presented. The numbers are obviously quite flimsy until we have a real market to analyze.

Punk
07-10-2013, 06:08 PM
Of course there is rake. And rake has nothing to do with "playing against the house". You're not "playing against the house" in poker either. Rake is a commission. When you're playing against the house, as in blackjack the house has an edge. These are two completely different things.

Rake is short for Pot Rake. There is no other definition of this word unless you made it up. The exact term "Beat the Rake" is a term used loosely in card rooms in which you are not directly playing against the house, such as in Texas Hold'em. To "Beat the Rake" is to beat the other players at the table and to overcome the house's constant Pot Rake before too much is taken away.

Let me give you an example: There is 8 people playing at a Texas Hold'em table in a casino and each of them bring $100 to the table. There is a total of $800 at this table now; no more, no less. Every hand played, a chunk of this $800 is in the pot and the house is taking a percentage of this pot. This means that the total amount of money at the table is constantly going down off of every hand. To "Beat the Rake," this means to beat the other players at the table and to do it before this constant Raking of money takes too much away from this $800 and profiting less than opportune.


Booster drafts are not ring games (aka cash games), they're tournaments.

Correct.


The rake in a tournament is generally referred to as "fee" or "entry fee" and sometimes collectively as "rake" when poker is considered as a whole..

Completely wrong. There is no rake in a tournament setting and the entry fee is never referred to as the Tournament Rake. Go to Las Vegas and enter in any Poker Tournament with an entry fee. Ask the dealers if there is a rake.

The rake is adequately replaced with an entry fee. The rake does not equal an entry fee, nor does an entry fee equal a rake. It is a replacement variable.

-----------

I thought I would wait to post and get a 2nd opinion:

I called a friend of mine (James) that works as a table dealer for all card games at 7 Feathers Casino here in Oregon and simply asked him: "Hey, is there a rake for your Texas Hold'em tournaments?" -- just to see what he would say. His reply was:

James: "Tournaments don't get raked but you have to pay an entry fee."

Me: "Isn't this the same thing?"

James: "Not even close. Why do you ask?"

Me: "Just having a discussion online with someone and they are stating otherwise, so I thought I would double check just in-case you guys ever referred to it as such."

He then used two words to describe you that I would find inappropriate to repeat.


..so I am taking a little artistic license by calling it "rake" and I feel justified in doing so as rake is far more clear as to what exactly is going on and is far less egregious than your attempts to compare tournaments with ring games.

So, you took a word and adapted it to describe something that it wasn't, and since you are feeling justified in your decision, you are arguing that this adapted word now means what it clearly does not?

That's cool. I like feels too.


What do you think the $1 entry fee is if not a fee?

It is a fee that must be paid before entering the tournament. When did I say otherwise?


However, unlike poker tournaments we do not have a clear payout table..

What isn't clear about the payout table of an 8-4 draft? First place gets 8 booster packs and second place gets 4 booster packs.


..(and I included example buy-in and fee schedules from PokerStars tournaments - Did you skip that part?)..

Even though I quoted it and further elaborated on what an X + Y tournament structure was, you're right.. I totally skipped that part.

The reading and comprehension skills you possess are top notch.



..because some of the value is returned in booster prizes and some in the value of the singles pulled from packs. If we were dealing with ghost drafts then everything would be much more clear.

But we're not, we're describing a system where:

- Some value goes in (24 boosters and $8 in fess)
- Some value comes out (24 open boosters and 12 boosters)

If there is a difference between those two values then the players have lost some value. That value doesn't just disappear, that value has gone to CZE. That value is "rake". If you want to play another booster draft and you didn't win any boosters, you need to go buy more boosters and pay another fee. This is how CZE makes money. This is rake.

By saying, "there is no rake" you're assuming that the value going into a draft ($8 in fees and 24 boosters) is equivalent to the value coming out of the draft (24 open boosters and 12 boosters). That is certainly possible but extremely unlikely. Assuming boosters are worth $2 (obviously a problematic assumption) In order for this to be true, an open booster would need to be worth on average $1.33. That probably is not going to happen. What are open boosters worth in MTGO again?

I read over this section three times. The first time was difficult due to your sentence construction and I would assume it would be better from someone who is writing informative articles. If the article is hard to read, it is hard to get information out of it. If your reply is hard to read, it also is hard to get information out of it.

On my second trip down this information highway you presented to me, I am starting to see the point you are trying to make. It is a very dull point and if I chose to write with it, I would start by sharpening it a few times before appropriately deciding to throw it away and start again with a new utensil.

My third adventure through this traffic jam of words was much like the first. After getting lost in the first two paragraphs, I found myself staring at the end of the road feeling less than satisfied. I was determined to not be done just yet and quickly turned around and headed back up this "chutes and ladders" construction of a thought. Unlucky for me, I must of landed on a slide square because I appeared back at the start without anything to show for my troubles.

TL;DR: I ended up taking a nap after realizing that if you cannot comprehend the heritage, definition and proper use of the term Pot Rake, we really can't hold an intellectual back-and-forth.


And sure, I use 50% open value in my sample calculations. I also included charts for a variety of values, down to 10%. If you are correct and opened boosters are actually going to be worth around $.25 then the rake will actually be extremely high, far higher than any poker tournament (well, except maybe some live charity tournaments which can be crazy).

When you use an absurd value to represent the average of an inconsistent variable at the start of your equations, and then further adapt this variable to the rest of your calculations for the most part, why would I want to continue reading to the point that I would be able to pull a reasonable example from?

When you construct an Article with the intent on having the reader take information away from it, why would you even start the article with such inconceivable variables? This is like having a big red warning label within the first few paragraphs that say:

"Hey everyone, come read my article and look at the cool graphs I made, but if you aren't oblivious to this subject matter, then you should probably turn back now."

Banquetto
07-10-2013, 09:33 PM
By saying, "there is no rake" you're assuming that the value going into a draft ($8 in fees and 24 boosters) is equivalent to the value coming out of the draft (24 open boosters and 12 boosters). That is certainly possible but extremely unlikely. Assuming boosters are worth $2 (obviously a problematic assumption) In order for this to be true, an open booster would need to be worth on average $1.33. That probably is not going to happen. What are open boosters worth in MTGO again?

And sure, I use 50% open value in my sample calculations. I also included charts for a variety of values, down to 10%. If you are correct and opened boosters are actually going to be worth around $.25 then the rake will actually be extremely high, far higher than any poker tournament (well, except maybe some live charity tournaments which can be crazy).

Since you say $2 for an unopened booster is "a problematic assumption", do you have any thoughts as to what a better valuation might be?

Obviously it's hard to come to a figure since we have no idea what the Primal rate will be when buying a booster. But haven't I seen people in other threads estimating the ceiling value of an unopened, yet proven to be non-Primal, booster at roughly $1.80?

If that was the case, the 12 unopened boosters would be worth $21.60, add the $8 fee, and the 24 opened boosters would have to be worth more than $1.23 to break even.

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 09:52 PM
I called a friend of mine (James) that works as a table dealer for all card games at 7 Feathers Casino here in Oregon

Next time you speak to him, ask "James" why he deals instead of plays the game for a living...

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 10:05 PM
Since you say $2 for an unopened booster is "a problematic assumption", do you have any thoughts as to what a better valuation might be?


Everything about booster "street price" is pure speculation. If Hex launches and nobody but kickstarter players play the thing then there will be zero demand for boosters and thousands of players with a ton of boosters to spare. If people decide to recoup their investment or straight up dump a dead game then boosters will sell for peanuts. If Hex launches huge and all Magic, LoL and Candy Crush players decide to switch over then the demand for boosters will be massive and street price will approach retail.

I believe you're referencing Yoss' thread which attempts to set the possible ceiling for booster prices, above which it makes more sense to buy from the auction house (you could certainly still see auctions for higher, just like you see eBay auctions with ten dollar items listed for hundreds). Nobody has any idea what the actual going price will be.

Punk
07-10-2013, 10:07 PM
Next time you speak to him, ask "James" why he deals instead of plays the game for a living...

I won't be doing that, but I am sure he is not allowed to as it would be conflict of interest with his place of employment.

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 11:44 PM
What isn't clear about the payout table of an 8-4 draft? First place gets 8 booster packs and second place gets 4 booster packs.


No, it's not that simple.

It costs $7 to enter a booster draft (IIRC MTGO has the ability to buy in directly to a draft without the intermediary steps of buying boosters and tickets. In Hex this would cost $7).

If 8 people pay $7 to enter a draft, CZE collects $56 cash.

When the tournament ends, CZE awards the following:
First place gets 8 boosters
Second place gets 4 boosters
Everyone in the draft (all 8 players) each get 45 cards (the cards they selected in the draft).

The 12 boosters awarded in prizes are very easy to quantify. The 360 cards much less so.

12 boosters are worth $24 full retail. CZE collected $56 at the start of the tournament. Are those 360 cards worth $32?

If they're not, if they're worth less then CZE has effectively kept some value. This is rake or fee or commission or rent or whatever you want to call it. Hell, call it a "gold sink" if you like.

It doesn't matter.

The point is that in order to profit at the game you have both play better than average and play well enough to overcome the drag created by this loss of value. You must beat the rake.


If you were able to buy those boosters for less than $2, either from the auction house or as a Kickstarter backer then obviously your cost to enter is lower. However, if the going rate for boosters is significantly lower than retail then the value of those 360 cards is also going to be correspondingly lower. So while your cost goes down, the value of the prizes given out also goes down. For someone stuck paying full retail this is particularly bad, but since the $1 fee is immutable your cost does not reduce in a linear fashion. And keep in mind that a big chunk of the prize is in the form of boosters. And if you want to be able to sell them in order to cover your fees then you're subject to the "street price" of boosters once again.

Killer.Mutant
07-10-2013, 11:50 PM
KM has good concepts presented.

Thanks!


The numbers are obviously quite flimsy until we have a real market to analyze.

Yes, absolutely. That's why I'm trying to provide tables with a range of possible values. Really, my articles are an excuse to hammer out these concepts and particularly build spreadsheets so I'm prepared at launch to make some real conclusions like, "How bad is opening a booster, really?" or "Is it better to play drafts or constructed?" or "Just how overpriced/underpriced is card X due to current demand and is selling/buying it now on the expectation of that demand changing a good bet?"

Punk
07-11-2013, 01:14 AM
No, it's not that simple.

It costs $7 to enter a booster draft (IIRC MTGO has the ability to buy in directly to a draft without the intermediary steps of buying boosters and tickets. In Hex this would cost $7).

If 8 people pay $7 to enter a draft, CZE collects $56 cash.

When the tournament ends, CZE awards the following:
First place gets 8 boosters
Second place gets 4 boosters
Everyone in the draft (all 8 players) each get 45 cards (the cards they selected in the draft).

The 12 boosters awarded in prizes are very easy to quantify. The 360 cards much less so.

12 boosters are worth $24 full retail. CZE collected $56 at the start of the tournament. Are those 360 cards worth $32?

If they're not, if they're worth less then CZE has effectively kept some value. This is rake or fee or commission or rent or whatever you want to call it. Hell, call it a "gold sink" if you like.

It doesn't matter.

The point is that in order to profit at the game you have both play better than average and play well enough to overcome the drag created by this loss of value. You must beat the rake.


If you were able to buy those boosters for less than $2, either from the auction house or as a Kickstarter backer then obviously your cost to enter is lower. However, if the going rate for boosters is significantly lower than retail then the value of those 360 cards is also going to be correspondingly lower. So while your cost goes down, the value of the prizes given out also goes down. For someone stuck paying full retail this is particularly bad, but since the $1 fee is immutable your cost does not reduce in a linear fashion. And keep in mind that a big chunk of the prize is in the form of boosters. And if you want to be able to sell them in order to cover your fees then you're subject to the "street price" of boosters once again.

When you said "Payout Table," I could only assume you were talking about Prize Payout. Apparently, that is not the case.

Dynark
07-11-2013, 06:47 AM
When you said "Payout Table," I could only assume you were talking about Prize Payout. Apparently, that is not the case.

To end this discussion,
What would you call it.
As in the article described:
The _____ is the difference between the cost of a booster draft and the value of the results of that draft - The prizes and leftover cards.


Personally I do not care what the word means, if he has no better one, who am I to judge - as long as I got no better word for it.
(But fee is not appropriate, is it?)

For the peeps here for the topic:
Am I right:
3Booster + 1$ = 1.5 Booster + 48Cards + ? + x
1.5Booster + 1$ - 48Cards -?= x

Where x is the thing we need a name for.
The 1.5 Booster is the average amount of boosters won.
The Cards are the cards drafted during the tournament.
The ? is every possible thing that I is rumored about.
(p.e. I heard that if you open a booster, the treasure chest is transfered to your acc., so you get 3 Chest in each Draft.)

Killer.Mutant
07-11-2013, 07:41 AM
Personally I do not care what the word means, if he has no better one, who am I to judge - as long as I got no better word for it.
(But fee is not appropriate, is it?)


I'm using Search & Replace on all my upcoming posts to change all uses of "rake" to "CZE tax".. :)


Treasure chests are interesting but I've avoided them because we have such little information and everything is even more speculative. But, imagine for a moment if instead of each booster being 15 cards, CZE changes boosters to 30 cards (same rarity distribution and still $2 full retail). (Please ignore the awkwardness of drafting 1.5 boosters, this is entirely a theoretical economic question).

What happens to the value of each card?

Obviously, the value of everything is halved.

So adding treasure chests to boosters is not really going to increase the value of an open booster. It will introduce a bunch of variance depending on how good chests can be and it may help stabilize the over-all economy by distributing some value over parallel markets - but we already have that and the value of commons and uncommons should be much more liquid in CZE than Magic due to the auction house and crafting. (ie; commons shouldn't be untradeable dead weight - OTOH, if we can craft commons into rares and legendaries that will act against the value of rares and legendaries but that may be balanced by the increased demand on rares and legendaries from people trading up and selling crap cards in the auction house).

So it's really clever on the part of CZE. It looks like they're giving a gift, but they're really just shifting around value. But in doing so they're promoting other aspects of the game. By giving out some mats they're incentivising someone who might otherwise only be playing drafts to start crafting. By giving out some gear they're incentivising someone who might only be interested in PVP to try PVE. Increasing player engagement, particularly when the players are paying for it themselves, is basically the holy grail of game design.

CZE really know what they're doing and we all can just go ahead and sign our credit cards over to them because we have as much chance of getting away with our wallets intact as a middle aged housewife playing Farmville... :)

Killer.Mutant
07-11-2013, 07:49 AM
When you said "Payout Table," I could only assume you were talking about Prize Payout. Apparently, that is not the case.

And that's why I explained further. See, now we're having a conversation instead of peeing on each other's shoes.

lamaros
07-11-2013, 09:44 PM
There is no rake. The concept is entirely useless for this topic.

There is an entry fee and a prize table. Also, again, they pay out plat as far as they have said.

So there are 24 packs going in, and 24 packs of opened selected cards and 12 packs going out. 8 plat going in and ? plat going out (8 or less - ie only 2/1 for the 'winners', or 4/2/1/1).

Until we know about the exact prize breakdown for the different tournaments there is no point speculating any more.