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Mokog
07-11-2013, 10:31 PM
Howdy Hexers!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJCGqfjP__0


Take a look at my new Alpha Tech video on shard ramping. I take a top level look at the known components of a ramping deck as well as present everyone a challenge! Can you figure out how to cast Eye of Creation turn 5 while X = 14? Go check out the video. Subscribe and leave your answer in the comments below. Funktion is co-sponsoring this contest with me so go show his channel some love (http://www.youtube.com/user/FunktionFails).

And watch his update video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZIAXlrDpJU)

Show us how smart you are by beating our expectations and securing yourself a few extra boosters at launch!

Official rules:
Now that I am no longer in a video creating haze and have talked with Funktion more, we definitely need to define the rules of this puzzle.

Goal: There are now two winning goals (and two grand prize winners). First goal is to cast Eye of creation at X=>13 the earliest turn possible. The second goal is to ramp the most shards by turn 4 (some of you might go infinite in PvP on 5). That means 6 packs will be granted to each grand prize winner. (Honorable mention pack to the first person who sends me a legit infinite shard ramp by turn five btw)

All runners up and commenters will be entered into a drawing for two packs and five winners will be chosen at random. If you win either first place you can not win the other grand prize. If there are ties that can not be broken then the grand prize winners will be chosen at random from the tied players pool.

Tie breakers work as follows: Shard count – Cards played count. If you generate more shards than your competitors on the same turn then you win. If that is tied who ever accomplishes the same shard count with fewer cards played wins the tie.

Limitations: Only PvP cards and champions maybe used. No Equipment maybe used.
Anytime you would draw/steal a card, you choose what card it is (that's where the puzzle comes into play) Standard deck construction rules apply for you and your imagined opponent. You may only determine what is in the opponent's hand, draw and deck but not their actions. That is a puzzle for another day.

You must be subscribed to HexHunterMokog (http://www.youtube.com/user/HexHunterMokog) and FunktionFails (http://www.youtube.com/user/FunktionFails) to be eligible to play.

Submit your answers to either Funktion or myself in private message via YouTube or the official Hex TCG forums. Comment here in the forums an on our videos to be entered to win the random double pack giveaway.

Submissions must include your opening hand as well as a turn by turn & action by action breakdown.

Submissions will be accepted until August 1st. Winners will be announced shortly there after. If you have questions post them in the comments section of the videos or on the forums.

We request that you do not post your breakdowns in the comments or forums unless you really want the 6 packs to be handed out randomly. I would applaud your generosity and snicker at your foolishness.
The rules are subject to common sense change. (Like I may see something so awesome I want to give away more packs) We will keep it to a minimum.

~ Mokog

Armies
07-11-2013, 11:11 PM
my answer is x=112 good luck guys!

Gwaer
07-11-2013, 11:41 PM
Removed to respect funktions wishes, x=31

funktion
07-11-2013, 11:43 PM
Mokog, gotta add that you can only use PvP cards & no equipment. Keep things somewhat realistic (though still dream scenarios) and out of the realm of lotus garden shenanigans.

Gwaer
07-11-2013, 11:44 PM
I was working under that framework already, but I guess armies was not.

funktion
07-11-2013, 11:52 PM
@Gwaer how are you playing zero cost turbines? Also it costs to activate, so by my count that gets you to x = 16?

Gwaer
07-11-2013, 11:53 PM
Good call, didn't take into account activation costs of turbines, you're right x16.

PetyrBaelish
07-12-2013, 12:00 AM
How the heck did you get 3 0 cost turbines out.....

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 12:01 AM
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/images/cards/big/ShrineofProsperity.jpg

funktion
07-12-2013, 12:03 AM
That doesn't give you zero cost turbines, you already shrined the chloro from the top of your deck... not to mention if you shrined the turbine it doesn't effect every copy, just the one card that's right there on top.

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 12:03 AM
You have to draw the turbines on turns 3, 4, and 5. to -1 each of them after you play the shrine.
So instead of playing all three on turn 3 you would have to play 1 0 cost one on each turn thereafter. Which means you have to draw them around your eocs.

PetyrBaelish
07-12-2013, 12:04 AM
Oh right didnt notice the draw turbines part

funktion
07-12-2013, 12:07 AM
Glad it's already got some attention, but think you need to reread what you put gwaer because that doesn't quite work out the way you think it does.

Anyhow, that's kinda a good thing. I'd rather have people submit the solutions to either mokog or myself as a private message. You can say what you got for X in the forum thread but in order to keep everyone from posting the same thing please don't post your solution directly into the thread or the comments on youtube (inc trolls doing it anways)

PetyrBaelish
07-12-2013, 12:17 AM
You guys should post some rules like
pvp only cards?
can you use champions?
When does this end?

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 12:21 AM
Ugh! I forgot there's a champ that adds sources isn't there, Dangit.
Whew, no, the one i was thinking of is card draws not resources. Good. Don't have to redo everything.

Armies
07-12-2013, 12:25 AM
btw I only used pvp cards no equipment just fyi
hint, his video doesn't show all of the ramp cards in the set.

ramseytheory
07-12-2013, 01:02 AM
Oh, this looks fun as all hell. I think I know how my entry is going to go - I'll send it in as soon as I get home.

funktion
07-12-2013, 01:05 AM
There's actually multiple ramp style cards he left out... anyhow that's part of the fun.

So what I was going to post though is my half of the contest: Youtube: FunktionFails (http://youtu.be/1ZIAXlrDpJU)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZIAXlrDpJU&feature=youtu.be

Check it out because there's a few more guidelines in it that might not have been mentioned as well as a request or two which I wanted to make. Mokog will edit my vid into the original post as well when he gets a chance.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 01:42 AM
Hey guys - I'm not entering the contest being a fellow commentator and all, but I love brainteasers so I gave this a crack.

I personally got x=26 (29 mana total) on turn 5, in an impossibly unlikely scenario. :-P So if you're aiming to win the contest, that's the figure you're trying to equal/beat afaik.

funktion
07-12-2013, 01:56 AM
I'm at x = 92 right now on turn 5 myself... but I have a feeling that if I dig deeper I can get pretty deep into triple digits.

BIG DISCLAIMER: We're talking absolutely ridiculous odds for this to ever happen, I mean way beyond living in magical christmas land, but that's part of the fun. It definitely makes a good brain teaser.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 01:58 AM
X=92 is... just absurd. :-P I *must* have missed a ramp card somewhere.

Armies
07-12-2013, 02:15 AM
I am still at x=112 fyi unless the contest hosts disqualify my strat In which case I will have to rethink my method also never ever ever gonna happen in a normal circumstance this effectively

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 02:23 AM
Funktion challened my competitive side, so now I've gotten 2889, depending on rules (so a perfectly theoretical 2889). ;-)

Armies
07-12-2013, 02:24 AM
Funktion challened my competitive side, so now I've gotten 2889, depending on rules (so a perfectly theoretical 2889). ;-)

I don't believe you.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 02:26 AM
There's one major rules point that, without rules, can't be determined, but I'm capable of perfectly explaining why it's plausible. Of course, that'd stop people thinking for themselves, so I'm going to leave the can of worms as is for now.

Edit: actually, it's 2889 on the play. On the draw it's 2929. ;-)

funktion
07-12-2013, 02:27 AM
Yeah... I think the best I'm at right now is about 534 but I need to do the math one more time.

Armies
07-12-2013, 02:35 AM
and you guys somehow do this in 5 turns without using more then a 60 card deck, Man I am so curious as to what you are trying.

Armies
07-12-2013, 02:37 AM
hmmm I am having a brainstorm, could increase mine, hmmm brb

Armies
07-12-2013, 02:42 AM
well i think I can get close to x=800 but 2889 seems impossible

funktion
07-12-2013, 02:44 AM
My head hurts... I think you might be able to do it into the tens of thousands... it's funny seeing people converge on the same answers, if only you could see what eachother were sending you could combine and blow up the universe.

I need to put a new rule here before people start playing with it. Any turns you take by gaining extra turns still count towards your turn counter, they are not free.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 03:01 AM
Oh, isn't that just assumed? :-P Otherwise, Time Bug can quite literally be infinite turns, meaning x=the highest possible value you could get out of every card in your deck. :-P

funktion
07-12-2013, 03:08 AM
What would you guys think if I said... I just figured out it can be done on turn 4... but only if you are on the draw.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 03:41 AM
Got it - personally, I'm at x=16 on turn 4 on the draw, and x = 12 on the play (it can be done on the play ;-)).

Armies
07-12-2013, 03:58 AM
ok I made it to x=7049, But It Is probably easier to win the lottery every day until you die.

Armies
07-12-2013, 03:59 AM
man now I have to figure out turn 4!

Armies
07-12-2013, 04:05 AM
I could do it on turn 4, but Im trying to figure out how to get more then 14 on the draw!!!

Armies
07-12-2013, 04:08 AM
Yay I figured it out x=16 on turn 4

Armies
07-12-2013, 04:09 AM
now how to do it on the play instead of on the draw hmmm

Armies
07-12-2013, 04:23 AM
x=40 on the play On turn 4, come at me :)

ramseytheory
07-12-2013, 07:33 AM
Your two videos seem to give two different sets of rules for winning - I'm going to focus on the win condition that maximises x by turn 5, since that's the more interesting one. I'm also going to assume extra turns from time bugs still increment the turn counter.

Mokog
07-12-2013, 08:14 AM
Your two videos seem to give two different sets of rules for winning - I'm going to focus on the win condition that maximises x by turn 5, since that's the more interesting one. I'm also going to assume extra turns from time bugs still increment the turn counter.

We are working on it. We will have a full disclosure of the rules after I get back from the real job this afternoon. Typing up on the phone won't work out too well. Keep up the submissions!

wurtil
07-12-2013, 10:03 AM
Figured out a turn 3 (even on the play). Hint - requires a specific champion ;)

Armies
07-12-2013, 10:09 AM
Figured out a turn 3 (even on the play). Hint - requires a specific champion ;)

turn 3 but x= to what?

wurtil
07-12-2013, 10:14 AM
12

Vibraxus
07-12-2013, 10:22 AM
I can get X= 2 on turn 5...is that good? ;)

Armies
07-12-2013, 10:22 AM
man that is the same as mine :( but it doesn't require a specific champion. how many cards did you play for the final tiebreaker?

Armies
07-12-2013, 10:26 AM
nvm just got x=13 on turn 3 with 13 cards played on the play

wurtil
07-12-2013, 10:30 AM
Up to x=14, but takes 31 cards played so we are doing something different.

Armies
07-12-2013, 10:45 AM
I can get x=15 but on the draw :) with only 14 cards played

funktion
07-12-2013, 11:00 AM
Hm... I'm still stuck on using an extremely large one on turn 4... haven't found the turn 3 line of play yet...

wurtil
07-12-2013, 11:12 AM
I'm up to X=49 on turn 3, but I'm probably missing what is making you all go into the thousands on turn 4, and it may be applicable here too.

Armies
07-12-2013, 11:21 AM
I'm up to X=49 on turn 3, but I'm probably missing what is making you all go into the thousands on turn 4, and it may be applicable here too.

This I can't believe is possible! but the reason we can go into the thousands on turn 5(not turn 4) is at least for my attempt is relentless corruption so I am playing with twice as many cards.

wurtil
07-12-2013, 11:27 AM
Okay, can get into the ten thousands on turn 4, but it requires a card that wouldn't help get into the thousands on turn 3.

funktion
07-12-2013, 11:31 AM
Yeah, I'm at x=5207 right now on turn 4... still not quite sure how anyone pulled it off on turn 3 though.

eimerian
07-12-2013, 11:32 AM
I have x = infinity on turn 6.
Possible but very unlikely.

MercuryMonkey
07-12-2013, 11:44 AM
Are all the solutions with really large numbers (>100) using PvE plus equipment? With PvE and equipment and an extremely low probability it seems to be possible to reach practically infinite by the end of turn 4. With the end of turn 3 reaching "only" into the millions.... Or I could be understanding things incorrectly...

If some of those large numbers are PvP no equipment that is really crazy.

wurtil
07-12-2013, 11:45 AM
PvP only. With Equipment, Infinite on turn 3 no problem. And obviously with Spectral Lotus, infinite on turn 1, but that would be a different exercise...

Vibraxus
07-12-2013, 11:53 AM
Since I havent studied all the cards and their mechanics and junk (I know Bad Hexer) could somebody PM me the basics of this X= tons by turn 4? I cant spend hours going over cards while at work. :)

funktion
07-12-2013, 11:57 AM
@monkey
It might help to watch my half of the contest video for some clarification. Though I will say that we opened a can of worms with quite a few unforseen interactions, we're gonna allow most of them since that makes the puzzle more interesting.

To answer your question without giving anything away, most of the restrictions are as follows:
-PvP cards only, no equipment but champions are allowed (basically anything legal in a typical pvp match)
-You can gain extra turns, but those turns count towards your turn counter... so really they don't matter at all
-Anytime you would draw a card, you choose what card it is (that's where the puzzle comes into play)
-Don't forget about threshold
-Don't forget about cards in hand

I think that answers most of the weird corner cases, but if you have one in particular just message me so as not to give away any spoilers.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 11:58 AM
Well I just got home from clubbing (currently 3am here :-P) and found that people are now doing it on turn 3, and on turn 4 for massive amounts, so I shall take another look tomorrow morning. I can't wait to see the solutions though if I can't think of it myself; while they're certainly incredibly unlikely to happen in actual games I feel like I'm missing a certain interaction that others have noticed to get large values on turn 4, or to get it off at all on turn 3, so the base interaction itself may have potential somewhere depending on what it is.

MercuryMonkey
07-12-2013, 12:10 PM
@monkey
It might help to watch my half of the contest video for some clarification. Though I will say that we opened a can of worms with quite a few unforseen interactions, we're gonna allow most of them since that makes the puzzle more interesting.

Thanks! I only watched the first video. Watched yours now too.

Armies
07-12-2013, 12:11 PM
man I am so curious as to wurtil's plays if he can go that high on turn 3, I am so confused.

RobHaven
07-12-2013, 12:55 PM
To answer your question without giving anything away, most of the restrictions are as follows:
-PvP cards only, no equipment but champions are allowed (basically anything legal in a typical pvp match)
-You can gain extra turns, but those turns count towards your turn counter... so really they don't matter at all
-Anytime you would draw a card, you choose what card it is (that's where the puzzle comes into play)
-Don't forget about threshold
-Don't forget about cards in hand

Any time you draw a card, or any time you acquire a card?

funktion
07-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Any time you acquire a card you choose what that card will be so long as it is possible to do so.

Normal restrictions for deck building apply:
-No more than 4 copies of any card except for basic resources.
-Any opposing deck is assumed to contain 60 cards (may not have more than 60 in theirs) and is assumed to draw one card on each of it's turns, except if they are on the play they do not draw one on the first.

wurtil
07-12-2013, 01:50 PM
Well, found a way to make X=infinite on turn 4, but unfortunately it has the nasty side effect of dealing infinite damage on turn 3 in order to get there, so looks like that is out.

ramseytheory
07-12-2013, 05:21 PM
Wait, are all these infinite combos assuming use of Time Bug? Because I would have assumed that if you use Time Bug on turn 3, your opponent skips their next turn and you take your turn 4 immediately - so it doesn't actually buy you anything.

e: Actually, I see another way of doing it assuming Dream Dance lets you reduce actions to zero cost, but I thought it was generally agreed that that wasn't allowed. (But I can certainly get X *much* larger than 2500ish on turn 5.)

wurtil
07-12-2013, 06:05 PM
There are infinite combos beyond time bug :)

And while Cory said costs couldn't go to zero in a podcast, the developers in one of the twitch stream chat sessions said they could unless the card stated otherwise (like archmage wrenlocke).

ramseytheory
07-12-2013, 06:10 PM
At the same time, IIRC another of the developers (I think in the same stream?) used Dream Dance as an example of a card that couldn't reduce costs to zero. So either they were wrong, the card has been updated since it was revealed, or there's some overarching rule that covers Dream Dance.

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 06:16 PM
Are you certain he didn't use dream dance of an example of a card that does go to 0? Cause as written it seems to.

Armies
07-12-2013, 07:34 PM
well my turn 3 on the play x=13 and turn x=15 on the draw do reduce the cost of something to zero, but not with dream dance.

Armies
07-12-2013, 07:43 PM
Wait, are all these infinite combos assuming use of Time Bug? Because I would have assumed that if you use Time Bug on turn 3, your opponent skips their next turn and you take your turn 4 immediately - so it doesn't actually buy you anything.

e: Actually, I see another way of doing it assuming Dream Dance lets you reduce actions to zero cost, but I thought it was generally agreed that that wasn't allowed. (But I can certainly get X *much* larger than 2500ish on turn 5.)
and you still have to play the dream dances, and since we are on turn 3 It makes it very difficult to actually play them and do anything effective with them.

wurtil
07-12-2013, 08:44 PM
Question - Can we assume/not assume our opponent has played a troop at some point (one way or the other)? For the Turn 5 large X, I've got one line I'm thinking of that wants no blockers, but another that would go easier if the opponent had anything in play.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 08:58 PM
I believe that would be ok. Living the dream and all.

As for reducing costs to 0 - I believe that until rules come out or cards are errata'd, we should assume that they can, given the clear difference in wording from Archmage Wrenlocke and Journeyman Technician/Dream Dance. I wouldn't be surprised if those cards do get errata'd before alpha/beta, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they don't, given that what actually breaks those cards is PvE, and it's other more broken cards like Spectral Lotus doing the breaking. ;-)

Also, I believe we're going with Time Bug turns are counted towards your turn number.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 09:35 PM
Ok, I've got x=15 on the play, though I think I can only get it to go to x=16 on the draw, on turn 3, though like with many of these situations there's potential rules awkwardness.

This is, of course, assuming that our 'trial' ends when we cast our first EoC. Theoretically you could cast other EoCs first in order to just play more resources.

Erebus
07-12-2013, 10:57 PM
Yeah I'm at X greater then 1760 on turn 4 at the moment.

Not sure how to get the combo off on turn 3. Maybe I'm missing something.

Turns are more important then X right?

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 10:58 PM
From what they have said so far turns are most important. turn 3 with 12 beats turn 4 at infinity.

Erebus
07-12-2013, 11:09 PM
Also another rule that you might need to state, is that you don't have any control over your opponent or opponent's deck?

Assume they do nothing of note for however many turns you need.

MercuryMonkey
07-12-2013, 11:26 PM
I think I am at about the same place as you. Can't figure out turn 3 but 4 in the thousands is no problem. I agree some clarification on what the deal is with the contents of the opponent's deck would be nice.

Gwaer
07-12-2013, 11:28 PM
As written it seems that if you play cards that can pull out of an opponent's deck, you can choose what cards you pull, and if play cards that require an opponent to have troops out, you can choose what troops they have out, as long as it's possible for them to play them.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-12-2013, 11:33 PM
I believe we have total control over our opponents. I know I needed to to get my x=16/15.

funktion
07-13-2013, 12:38 AM
As I've mentioned earlier regarding the opponents deck, if you are accessing their deck they are assumed to have 60 cards in it, you choose which cards they draw / dont draw...

But to keep it from getting into some really weird corner cases, they don't play any cards besides one resource each turn. You can't do anything like have your opponent cast oracle song on you. The only cards played are the ones which you play yourself.

Once again you can gain extra turns, but those turns still count towards you so they really don't do anything at all. For what it's worth none of the truly powerful / bonkers plays which people have submitted to me yet involve time bug at all.

Everyone has done it legit.

Also unless the card currently says otherwise on the hex datamine DB site, cards can reduce cost to zero. In wrenlocke's case the lowest he can reduce it is to 1, but other cards can still reduce to zero beyond that.

wurtil
07-13-2013, 05:06 AM
As I've mentioned earlier regarding the opponents deck, if you are accessing their deck they are assumed to have 60 cards in it, you choose which cards they draw / dont draw...

But to keep it from getting into some really weird corner cases, they don't play any cards besides one resource each turn. You can't do anything like have your opponent cast oracle song on you. The only cards played are the ones which you play yourself.

Once again you can gain extra turns, but those turns still count towards you so they really don't do anything at all. For what it's worth none of the truly powerful / bonkers plays which people have submitted to me yet involve time bug at all.

Everyone has done it legit.

Also unless the card currently says otherwise on the hex datamine DB site, cards can reduce cost to zero. In wrenlocke's case the lowest he can reduce it is to 1, but other cards can still reduce to zero beyond that.

That's a shame, you can have infinite resources on turn 4 if the opponent has even just a Battle Hopper. Probably for the best though, the non-infinite path is harder to refine so it should be more fun to work on.

Xarek
07-13-2013, 05:09 AM
That's annoying, my current method required opponent to cast Oracle Song on me and use Nin the Shadow to make me mill 2 :(

As this wasn't stated during the initial rules of the contest and I've spent all morning working on this deck, I find that pretty frustrating.

Mokog
07-13-2013, 05:52 AM
That's annoying, my current method required opponent to cast Oracle Song on me and use Nin the Shadow to make me mill 2 :(

As this wasn't stated during the initial rules of the contest and I've spent all morning working on this deck, I find that pretty frustrating.

A puzzle wouldn't be fun if it was easy. Lots of submissions are thinking outside of the box and I didn't even think we needed to define "the box." Keep at it. We will do an update, an anonymous leaders kind of thing, Sunday so everyone knows what to strive for.

~Mokog

Xarek
07-13-2013, 06:15 AM
A puzzle wouldn't be fun if it was easy. Lots of submissions are thinking outside of the box and I didn't even think we needed to define "the box." Keep at it. We will do an update, an anonymous leaders kind of thing, Sunday so everyone knows what to strive for.

~Mokog

I've managed to work around it without too much damage :) I'll make sure to get my submission in before tomorrow then to hopefully get on the leaderboard!

wurtil
07-13-2013, 06:37 PM
Worked on it a bit, got up to a turn 3 X=155 combo. Still may be room for improvement in there.

Also, I found a workable turn 4 X=Infinite combo (and no, it doesn't use Time Bug) which naturally can be used for the Turn 5 contest as well.

MercuryMonkey
07-13-2013, 06:54 PM
Worked on it a bit, got up to a turn 3 X=155 combo. Still may be room for improvement in there.

Also, I found a workable turn 4 X=Infinite combo (and no, it doesn't use Time Bug) which naturally can be used for the Turn 5 contest as well.

I just got to turn 3 x=77, back to the drawing board I guess. I am still not seeing the infinite anywhere.... still missing something. Pretty fun to figure this stuff out though!

MercuryMonkey
07-13-2013, 08:30 PM
Finally figured out the turn 4 x=infinite. Now to refine it and go back to getting turn 3 higher.

Armies
07-13-2013, 09:20 PM
man I am so curious how you get infinite, hmmm is there a card that brings back actions from the graveyard? I don't remember seeing one :(

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-13-2013, 09:42 PM
Personally, my infinite method involved a certain card which doesn't look like a ramp card at all, but when combined with another, totally is.

I'm probably missing something regarding these huge turn 3 values, but I'll find out afterwards I suppose (unless I find myself with more time before the contest ends).

LargoLaGrande
07-13-2013, 10:53 PM
Worked on it a bit, got up to a turn 3 X=155 combo. Still may be room for improvement in there.

Also, I found a workable turn 4 X=Infinite combo (and no, it doesn't use Time Bug) which naturally can be used for the Turn 5 contest as well.

I've gotten to x=145 on turn 3. From posts earlier in the thread I know I should be able to optimize it for more but I really want to know how you got 155, because the only way I know how to get such a large answer cannot actually produce 155 mana.

Armies
07-14-2013, 12:04 AM
I just can't think of a way to go infinite without decking out. I mean at most you can use 60+51 from your opponent, going infinite doesn't seem possible there has to be a limit.

MercuryMonkey
07-14-2013, 12:08 AM
I think I got turn 3 x=2434 but I am still checking my math and card counts.

funktion
07-14-2013, 12:20 AM
There have been some really mind bending entries so far. What I think is most interesting, is that a lot of these entries have been VERY different from eachother.

Xarek
07-14-2013, 12:25 AM
I just can't think of a way to go infinite without decking out. I mean at most you can use 60+51 from your opponent, going infinite doesn't seem possible there has to be a limit.

Was there a limit to your own deck size in the rules? I'm using more than 60 cards in my deck.

Only up to x=85 on turn 3, don't think I can push it anymore :(

Armies
07-14-2013, 12:40 AM
pretty sure the rules of the game imply 60 card constructed decks

Xarek
07-14-2013, 12:47 AM
pretty sure the rules of the game imply 60 card constructed decks

The rules say:

"Standard deck construction rules apply for you and your imagined opponent."

So I take that to mean I can play 60 or more cards in my deck. Guess we'll have to wait for clarification.

vallerius
07-14-2013, 12:56 AM
I wanted to mention something about Wrenlocke it looks to me like people haven't noticed:

Wrenlocke: You pay [1] less to play actions, to a minimum of 1.

Dream Dance: You pay [1] less to play cards this turn. Draw a card.

So, it appears that Wrenlocke only applies to basic and quick actions, while Dream Dance applies to all cards.
Am I silly for thinking people haven't noticed this?

Armies
07-14-2013, 01:29 AM
yes well standard in hex maybe 60 cards period not 60 or more like magic, have to wait and see I suppose

MercuryMonkey
07-14-2013, 01:36 AM
All the math and card counts seem to work out for turn 3 x=2434. I should really go do something else for a while.

Armies
07-14-2013, 01:37 AM
All the math and card counts seem to work out for turn 3 x=2434. I should really go do something else for a while.

man it took forever for me to get a turn 4 x=7072 how the hell did you get 2434 on turn 3

funktion
07-14-2013, 01:45 AM
Yes you may use however many cards in your deck as you would like. Though if you're including cards for the sole purpose of not decking yourself you're probably going to still deck yourself regardless...not to mention you might be going about things in a sub-optimal manner anyhow. Sure normally you would not want to use more than 60 except in extreme cases... but we're not talking about what is likely or logical in this thread...

You have entered the twilight zone...

Armies
07-14-2013, 01:49 AM
Yes you may use however many cards in your deck as you would like. Though if you're including cards for the sole purpose of not decking yourself you're probably going to still deck yourself regardless...not to mention you might be going about things in a sub-optimal manner anyhow. Sure normally you would not want to use more than 60 except in extreme cases... but we're not talking about what is likely or logical in this thread...

You have entered the twilight zone...

If decks end up having exactly 60 cards in hex this will be a sad sad day for this thread then :(

Xarek
07-14-2013, 01:50 AM
If you've managed turn 3 x=2434 that's very impressive. I'm currently on turn 3 x=81, but I've just worked out a way to improve that significantly. You've set a good target for me ;)

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 04:26 AM
Okay, I really have to up my game...best I figured out so far is X=96 by turn 5, I need to get more creative ^^

Edit: Make that X=990 by turn 4, still trying to figure out how to do it earlier. The way to go infinite at all still eludes me as well ^^

Armies
07-14-2013, 05:03 AM
I think I may have figured out a way to get decently high on turn 3, but I am still confounded how to go infinite on turn 4

wurtil
07-14-2013, 05:18 AM
Found x=787 turn 3, feel like I'm in the cusp of breaking the thousands. I'm glad we are all pushing each other here, I don't see a way to break into 5 digits on turn 3 but I would love for someone to do it so I wrack my brain against it.

Armies
07-14-2013, 05:25 AM
man I don't even care about the prize anymore, anyone who is getting super high on turn 3 I must evaluate this, also any infinity on turn four,(I still don't believe infinity is possible it must end sometime!) send me a pm, and feel free to hold me to this contest hosts :)

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 06:05 AM
Okay, got infinite by turn 5 now, and over 1000 by turn 4, but still no dice with either infinite by turn 4 or anything meaningful by turn 3...

Armies
07-14-2013, 06:22 AM
but is it really infinite?

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 06:35 AM
Depends on what you'd define as infinite. It's obviously somewhat abstract, since any infinite action would also take an infinite amount of time (spent exhausting, readying etc). But the way I have in mind is completely legal and produces a possibly infinite amount of resources (as in, as high as you want it).

Mokog
07-14-2013, 06:51 AM
So far the submissions received do not exceed a 60 card deck limit. The competitive constructed player in you all will not allow it. Fun fact.

Also Do not get discouraged by some of the numbers thrown around here. There are still packs on the line for everyone who is subscribed to both channels and leaves a comment. 5 lucky winners will get two packs a piece.

wurtil
07-14-2013, 06:58 AM
Wait, do I need to submit to you as well as funktion? My submission's definitely go over 60 cards...

funktion
07-14-2013, 08:55 AM
We're sharing the submissions between the both of us through emails etc : ) so no it's not necessary, but it doesn't hurt either.

With that said, some of the ways in which you guys are pulling this off are INCREDIBLY inventive. Making bad cards good... all day long.

Armies
07-14-2013, 09:19 AM
Depends on what you'd define as infinite. It's obviously somewhat abstract, since any infinite action would also take an infinite amount of time (spent exhausting, readying etc). But the way I have in mind is completely legal and produces a possibly infinite amount of resources (as in, as high as you want it).
Ya but I am still wondering how, I can't think of any cards that can non stop give resources in a single turn, it makes my mind boggle trying to figure out how you can achieve infinite, obviously I have achieved an absurd amount that you couldn't spend if you had a 1000 7 cost cards in your hand, but infinite I must know :P.

Eierdotter
07-14-2013, 10:22 AM
Turn 3 with X=21

with PVE cards obviously turn 1 and X a lot highher

very fun challenge

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-14-2013, 10:29 AM
Ya but I am still wondering how, I can't think of any cards that can non stop give resources in a single turn, it makes my mind boggle trying to figure out how you can achieve infinite, obviously I have achieved an absurd amount that you couldn't spend if you had a 1000 7 cost cards in your hand, but infinite I must know :P.
There's a card which doesn't look like a ramp card at all, but when combined with a second card actually is. ;-)

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 10:47 AM
The way I did it doesn't work under normal conditions (or, to be more precise, is absurdly unlikely), only under the specific rules of this contest...maybe that helps ;)

wurtil
07-14-2013, 12:00 PM
Found a second turn 4 infinite combo. Also, I think it will be interesting to see what Friday update cards we get in the next two weeks before this ends. A few very common cards and abilities from mtg would give us a turn 2 combo or an infinite turn 3 combo.

Xarek
07-14-2013, 12:04 PM
I think I've just cracked infinity at turn 3 :D

wurtil
07-14-2013, 12:07 PM
I think I've just cracked infinity at turn 3 :D

Ahhhh! I feel my brain melting now.

Edit: also, thank god, because I found a way to get to the hundred thousands on turn three but didn't want to have to type it out.

Eierdotter
07-14-2013, 12:10 PM
X= 154 on turn 3
infinite on turn 4

can not imagine how you get so much more on turn 3 without reading some card effects different than i do...

i guess when alpha comes out a common card will be spoiled that offers the possibility to get infinite on turn 3

Edit: X=170 after changing my starting hand a little bit

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 12:11 PM
A few very common cards and abilities from mtg would give us a turn 2 combo or an infinite turn 3 combo.

Yeah, I'm kind of surprised there's no card like Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise spoilered yet, given how common they are in MtG. Then again, maybe CZE actively avoids them to stop the stuff we're trying to come up with here in its tracks ^^

Eierdotter
07-14-2013, 12:20 PM
actually i am in need of a simple card that has a permanent effect like

[basic] sacrifice a permanent: get something idc what it is.

Edit: nevermind, i reread a card and now i am maybe infinite on turn 3

LargoLaGrande
07-14-2013, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I'm kind of surprised there's no card like Llanowar Elves or Birds of Paradise spoilered yet, given how common they are in MtG. Then again, maybe CZE actively avoids them to stop the stuff we're trying to come up with here in its tracks ^^

But we do have a Llanowar Elves. Kind of.

wurtil
07-14-2013, 12:21 PM
Yep Eierdotter, that or a Llanowar Elves were both what I was referring to.

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 12:37 PM
But we do have a Llanowar Elves. Kind of.

Only thing with a similar mechanism I see is the HEX engine, and that's Ur-Golem's Eye, not Llanowar Elves ^^ I'm looking for a 1 cost-creature (or artifact, I'm not picky ^^) that exhausts for one temporary resource, not a 4 cost that gives you two.

wurtil
07-14-2013, 12:41 PM
Yep, found the turn 3 infinite one. Ironically, I was using all the cards already, I just wasn't using them in the right manner...

LargoLaGrande
07-14-2013, 12:45 PM
Only thing with a similar mechanism I see is the HEX engine, and that's Ur-Golem's Eye, not Llanowar Elves ^^ I'm looking for a 1 cost-creature (or artifact, I'm not picky ^^) that exhausts for one temporary resource, not a 4 cost that gives you two.

I'm going to be honest with you, I'm not sure what Llanowar Elves gives that the creature I'm talking about doesn't. And I wish Hex Engine was UR-Golem's Eye. That would make getting to infinity on turn 3 SO MUCH EASIER GAH.

Xarek
07-14-2013, 12:46 PM
Ahhhh! I feel my brain melting now.

Edit: also, thank god, because I found a way to get to the hundred thousands on turn three but didn't want to have to type it out.

Yes my brain is turning to mush, I've been working on this all day. I hope it's valid - sent to Mokog and Funktion so I'll just have to wait. I have one concern over the reading of one card, but I think it may be possible stay infinite reading it a different way; although it would be more convoluted.

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 12:47 PM
I'm going to be honest with you, I'm not sure what Llanowar Elves gives that the creature I'm talking about doesn't. And I wish Hex Engine was UR-Golem's Eye. That would make getting to infinity on turn 3 SO MUCH EASIER GAH.

You're right, forgot the "enters play exhausted" part ^^ Then again, I can't even figure out a way to get a turn 4-infinite combo, much less turn 3, and I've literally been staring at the card list for 3 hours straight...

Xarek
07-14-2013, 12:48 PM
Yep, found the turn 3 infinite one. Ironically, I was using all the cards already, I just wasn't using them in the right manner...

Nice :) It'll be interesting to see if you've done the same as me. I can't think of any other way of going infinite.

MercuryMonkey
07-14-2013, 12:58 PM
Yep, found the turn 3 infinite one. Ironically, I was using all the cards already, I just wasn't using them in the right manner...

Nice! So much for me doing other things today.... I was already able to loop infinitely on turn 3 but the things that were increasing my resources for that turn were still finite.

Pentregarth
07-14-2013, 01:02 PM
Damn, I really can't seem to find a way to wrap my brain around whatever it is you're doing with these cards...just to be sure, we're all working with a card pool of 161 cards (not counting tokens, resources and champions)? ^^

LargoLaGrande
07-14-2013, 01:06 PM
I've been going off of the PvP cards on hex-datamine.com; I don't know exactly how many that is because you can't filter out tokens like Adamanthian Elite but if you're using datamine then you have all the tools to go infinite in multiple ways on turn 4. I can't speak for turn 3 yet, its possible that there is some amazing card that is somewhere that lets you do it but I'm probably just not seeing the correct combination of cards.

edit: You can totally filter out the tokens now. I didn't notice that.

Eierdotter
07-14-2013, 01:13 PM
newest attempt
Turn:3 X= 3842
+ infinite health, infinite damage
seemed infinite mana but was not after calculating properly...

Turn 4 infinite mana

Dregoths
07-14-2013, 03:18 PM
I just found the turn 3 infinite solution. Was going crazy not getting there. All i needed was a Champ :-)

wurtil
07-14-2013, 03:50 PM
I just found the turn 3 infinite solution. Was going crazy not getting there. All i needed was a Champ :-)

Wait, your turn 3 required a champ?!? I've found three turn 4 infinite combos, and one of those required a champ, but the turn 3 I found did not. Sounds like their might be multiple turn 3 solutions too...

Dregoths
07-14-2013, 04:01 PM
then i'm very curious what you're trick is :-)

Eierdotter
07-14-2013, 05:43 PM
are your infinite combos confirmed?

for example the Ritualist of the Spring Litter adds his mana at the start of the turn, and not when he enters play.

my current X=267
since i doubt that a special card work the way i could ramp up to 4k...

Armies
07-15-2013, 12:03 AM
wasn't there supposed to be an update video on sunday or a standings video?

Xarek
07-15-2013, 01:32 AM
Wait, your turn 3 required a champ?!? I've found three turn 4 infinite combos, and one of those required a champ, but the turn 3 I found did not. Sounds like their might be multiple turn 3 solutions too...

I'd be surprised if there's another turn 3 infinite. I spent most Sat/Sun working on it, and I can't see any other way of doing it. You do not require a champ for my method.

wurtil
07-15-2013, 03:31 AM
After sleeping on it, I no longer think my turn 3 infinite combo works, as it requires an interpretation that would probably not be correct. I am back to a huge number on turn 3 or 2 ways of going infinite on turn 4.

Brewdinar
07-15-2013, 06:35 AM
I just stumbled across this thread last night and found a very simple 4-turn infinite in about an hour, but was really wracking my brain trying to tune that method into a turn 3 and I'm pretty sure I need to find a different tactic. I'm really looking forward to seeing some solutions posted to read the interesting ways people seem to be using cards.

Eierdotter
07-15-2013, 07:29 AM
I just stumbled across this thread last night and found a very simple 4-turn infinite in about an hour, but was really wracking my brain trying to tune that method into a turn 3 and I'm pretty sure I need to find a different tactic. I'm really looking forward to seeing some solutions posted to read the interesting ways people seem to be using cards.

We all need to wait 2 weeks until the different solutions get spoiled :-(

Kslidz
07-15-2013, 10:52 AM
I do not believe the hex wiki has a full list of the cards as i can not find some of the pvp cards you guys are talking about

MercuryMonkey
07-15-2013, 10:58 AM
I do not believe the hex wiki has a full list of the cards as i can not find some of the pvp cards you guys are talking about

Are you talking about the wikia one? The curse hosted hex wiki or hex datamine are much better.
http://hextcg.gamepedia.com/
http://www.hex-datamine.com/

Dregoths
07-15-2013, 11:36 AM
If I interpret the rules and the cards right i have the infinite combo at turn three, but i'll wait for judges verdicts. Looking forward to see some solutions. And i really need the Champ to pull it off.

wurtil
07-15-2013, 02:26 PM
Submitted my solution for Turn 3, X=33928. Apparently there is a 5000 character limit to PMs on they Cryptozoic boards, as I was required to break it into 2 (almost 3) messages.

Eierdotter
07-15-2013, 03:09 PM
a message from our judges would be fine to confirm some of these numbers

Mokog
07-15-2013, 05:24 PM
Howdy Everyone!

I planned this update for Sunday but I wanted some extra time to review all the submissions we have received so far! There are soooo many intelligent thorough people who have responded so far I am almost giddy at the thought of playing you all once alpha and beta hit!

Here are the standings on the answers so far.
Challenge 1 X=>13 earliest turn. Top answer: Turn 3 Infinite
Challenge 2 Largest X turn 4 Top answer: Infinite

It appears there is not an upper limit to the theoretical amount you can shard ramp under the perfect conditions. This leaves us with a crossroads, do we make the conditions imperfect and put limits on what can be done or keep the contest the way it is?

Luckily Funktion thought of this before hand and introduced tie breakers. The answer that implements a loop using the fewest cards is the winner. How many cards are used in the best loop so far? Not telling yet. I want to continue to go over the solutions with Function to make sure I have not missed anything.

Keep up your submissions! Continue to subscribe and comment for a chance at boosters!

~ Mokog

wurtil
07-15-2013, 06:01 PM
Oh man, my brain is already overcooked from trying to get this turn 3 infinite combo. I just hope people don't make the same mistake I made when I first thought I had the infinite turn 3. Remember - a card that transforms remains in the state it was before the transformation.

MercuryMonkey
07-15-2013, 06:02 PM
Whatever I am missing for the turn 3 infinite or rule I am misunderstanding is going to drive me crazy.

LargoLaGrande
07-15-2013, 06:22 PM
Oh man, my brain is already overcooked from trying to get this turn 3 infinite combo. I just hope people don't make the same mistake I made when I first thought I had the infinite turn 3. Remember - a card that transforms remains in the state it was before the transformation.

Either they are, or they are wizards. I'm pretty sure there are really only two ways to go infinite, and both of them require more mana on turn 2 than you can actually make.

funktion
07-15-2013, 06:30 PM
Been really busy the past few days, I'll try and get back to answering all the corner cases people have come up with. Doing my best to maintain consistent answers so far and I think I have been as well. Man you guys are really coming up with some totally outrageous plays... as mokog was kinda saying earlier...

There might have been a little more we could have done to "define the box" as far as outside the box thinking goes, but some of the solutions people have suggested are so elegant (that's the best way I can put it) or so far in left field that I don't think there's really any point at limiting you folks.

Personally, I'll say this to everyone and hope you guys see it. Thank you a ton, I've gotten an enormous amount of entertainment from seeing all the solutions so far. No two have been anywhere near the same which is one of the most surprising parts about it, though many of you are now starting to converge on roughly the same ultimate answer.

If another day goes by and you feel like I haven't fully answered a question yet, send it to me again. It's possible that I missed one or two.

Edit: I'm trying not to answer some of the very specific questions publicly in this thread just because I don't want to influence people's answers unless you're already on that path. Don't want to spoil your fun getting there : )

Aradon
07-15-2013, 07:17 PM
Haven't sat through the videos yet, but I'm guessing the challenge is for PvP only, right? Otherwise, turn 3 seems a bit slow :P

funktion
07-15-2013, 07:31 PM
You got it.

Aradon
07-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Either they are, or they are wizards. I'm pretty sure there are really only two ways to go infinite, and both of them require more mana on turn 2 than you can actually make.

I, too, am stuck on one mana too short turn 2, with the most improbably method of going infinite I could imagine :P

wurtil
07-16-2013, 03:31 AM
Dumb question, but I am also stuck in the one "mana" too short camp (well, and three too short for the second infinite combo) so here it goes anyway - We can't have PVE cards in our deck, but are we allowed to "create" PVE card?

Eierdotter
07-16-2013, 04:27 AM
creating a pve card sounds like madness
would enable me to ramp X= >10 in turn 2 and infinite on turn 3...

but thats stupid, only PVP cards

Xarek
07-16-2013, 05:53 AM
creating a pve card sounds like madness
would enable me to ramp X= >10 in turn 2 and infinite on turn 3...

but thats stupid, only PVP cards

Fyi, if you could get X=10 on turn 2, you could also go infinite on turn 2 ;)

Eierdotter
07-16-2013, 06:00 AM
Fyi, if you could get X=10 on turn 2, you could also go infinite on turn 2 ;)

well i seem to overlook a card...
since i am limited to the amount of copys i can have from each card
and the cards which generate mana, don't generate immediately on the turn they enter...

btw voiding a card = remove it from the game?

wurtil
07-16-2013, 06:41 AM
Yeah, voiding a card is removing it from the game.

Two other clarifications:
1) you can only use a champ ability once per turn
2) void leech phantasm and eye of creation is not a combo.

Kslidz
07-16-2013, 07:54 AM
what is the infinite recusion I am missing?

wurtil
07-16-2013, 11:45 AM
Another rule clarification:

Adaptable infusion device gives threshold, but not resources.

LargoLaGrande
07-16-2013, 12:33 PM
You're really tempting me to start trolling this thread with super obvious or irrelevant rules clarifications.

You cannot Sabotage yourself.
Elimination Specialist probably doesn't target anything if X=0.
Void Leech Phantasm cannot interrupt itself.
Volcannon's second ability only effects the Volcannon that activated it.

funktion
07-16-2013, 01:55 PM
Dumb question, but I am also stuck in the one "mana" too short camp (well, and three too short for the second infinite combo) so here it goes anyway - We can't have PVE cards in our deck, but are we allowed to "create" PVE card?
No

wurtil
07-16-2013, 02:15 PM
You're really tempting me to start trolling this thread with super obvious or irrelevant rules clarifications.

You cannot Sabotage yourself.
Elimination Specialist probably doesn't target anything if X=0.
Void Leech Phantasm cannot interrupt itself.
Volcannon's second ability only effects the Volcannon that activated it.

Go for it, that would help take my mind off this contest and how stuck I feel. I am convinced that I don't understand some rule correctly, so I am hoping that someone will correct me when I post something that appears obvious to me but that actually works in a different way that would allow me to combo infinitely earlier.

On that note: journeyman technician does not reduce the cost of artifacts in other zones such as the graveyard.

Quasari
07-16-2013, 02:38 PM
Void Leech Phantasm cannot interrupt itself.
Nor can it interrupt anything already in play. It's only for cards on the stack that have not resolved yet.


On that note: journeyman technician does not reduce the cost of artifacts in other zones such as the graveyard.

It actually doesn't reduce the cost of any artifact. It's a replacement effect on how much you pay to play them. They are still costed exactly the same.

Ritualist of the Spring Liter only adds her resources at the start of the turn. It more than likely checks the amount of Shin'hare you control then puts it's effect on the stack. Adding Shin'hare during the turn will not add more mana. Playing the Ritualist won't add resources till the next start of turn.

Eierdotter
07-16-2013, 02:40 PM
@LargoLaGrande: good to know^^

btw if you guys say infinite do you mean X=infinite, or you can do something else infinite?

Quasari
07-16-2013, 03:15 PM
Let me add to that, the only cards that are spoiled that can change the costs of other cards are:
Spirit Dance (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Spirit-Dance/133)
Shrine of Prosperity (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Shrine-of-Prosperity/83)
Princess Victoria (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Princess-Victoria/44)(and she only reduces her own cost)

These cards, just change how much you pay to play them, they are still costed the same:
Archmage Wrenlocke (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Archmage-Wrenlocke/184)
Dream Dance (http://http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Dream-Dance/185)
Journeyman Technician (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Journeyman-Technician/34)
These will not interact with cards like Eye of Creation (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Eye-of-Creation/186) or Heavy Welding Bot (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Heavy-Welding-Bot/210) to play cards at a reduced cost.

Aradon
07-16-2013, 06:23 PM
Nor can it interrupt anything already in play. It's only for cards on the stack that have not resolved yet.



It actually doesn't reduce the cost of any artifact. It's a replacement effect on how much you pay to play them. They are still costed exactly the same.

Ritualist of the Spring Liter only adds her resources at the start of the turn. It more than likely checks the amount of Shin'hare you control then puts it's effect on the stack. Adding Shin'hare during the turn will not add more mana. Playing the Ritualist won't add resources till the next start of turn.

It looks to me like the Ritualist will put the ability on the stack, but check how many Shinhare you have only when the ability resolves. This means that you can respond with a quick-speed Shin'hare spell to affect how much mana you end up getting. But yes, playing more shin'hare after the ability resolves doesn't give you more mana.

Quasari
07-16-2013, 07:46 PM
It looks to me like the Ritualist will put the ability on the stack, but check how many Shinhare you have only when the ability resolves. This means that you can respond with a quick-speed Shin'hare spell to affect how much mana you end up getting. But yes, playing more shin'hare after the ability resolves doesn't give you more mana.
Depends on when they do the check, I guess.
I can see it going that way too.

Kslidz
07-16-2013, 08:01 PM
Ok are we assuming 1 opponent? if so I can get over 1000 resources infinite cards and infinite threshold and infinite life turn 3, but not infinite resources as there is no way I can find of recurring actions so they are limited to max of 8. turn 4 there are a few ways to go infinite. Just making sure, there is NO way to recur actions correct?

MercuryMonkey
07-16-2013, 08:20 PM
Ok are we assuming 1 opponent? if so I can get over 1000 resources infinite cards and infinite threshold and infinite life turn 3, but not infinite resources as there is no way I can find of recurring actions so they are limited to max of 8. turn 4 there are a few ways to go infinite. Just making sure, there is NO way to recur actions correct?

I think I am stuck in exactly the same place you are because as far as I know that is correct.

Kslidz
07-16-2013, 09:17 PM
I hate life

Eierdotter
07-17-2013, 01:24 PM
what do we miss...

LargoLaGrande
07-17-2013, 01:38 PM
what do we miss...

My thought process on this has been that there's nothing tricky you can do on T3 to go infinite because the two methods to make infinite mana both require an untap step anyway. So there's either something I'm missing on T1 or 2, and I'm pretty sure its T2 because there are only two real T1 openings (and I'm not even sure the second one matters). So I'm stuck trying to squeeze one extra mana out of a combination of like 20 cards that are playable on turn 2. It's not really working, at this point I think I'm missing some fabled third way to go infinite that somehow goes off the turn it makes infinite mana.

This is all based on the inability to recur actions, shuffle things into my deck or repeatably destroy non-troops.

funktion
07-17-2013, 01:50 PM
AH.... the quest for the fabled third way

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 02:41 PM
Not to make y'all hate me, but if there is a legit (albeit near impossible) legal turn of events that gives you infinite threshold/life with over 1000 resources, wouldnt that be a broke combo that needs some looking into by Hex?

Not to be a debbie downer, but lets be real.


Now back to your theory crafting.

Quasari
07-17-2013, 02:46 PM
Not to make y'all hate me, but if there is a legit (albeit near impossible) legal turn of events that gives you infinite threshold/life with over 1000 resources, wouldnt that be a broke combo that needs some looking into by Hex?

Not to be a debbie downer, but lets be real.


Now back to your theory crafting.

Eh, i can give you a combo in mtg that can kill your opponent on the upkeep of the first turn if they play first.

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 02:47 PM
Eh, i can give you a combo in mtg that can kill your opponent on the upkeep of the first turn if they play first.

In new legal content? Not like the crazy ornithopter fun from old school? Dayum. You scare me. ;)

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 02:48 PM
Not to make y'all hate me, but if there is a legit (albeit near impossible) legal turn of events that gives you infinite threshold/life with over 1000 resources, wouldnt that be a broke combo that needs some looking into by Hex?

Not to be a debbie downer, but lets be real.


Now back to your theory crafting.
Of course, and it'll be fixed.

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
Of course, and it'll be fixed.

Perfect. This is what Beta is all about, find the broke stuff and get it fixed. I love the theory craft (even though I suck at it). Im dieing to see these combos Y'all have made.

Quasari
07-17-2013, 02:52 PM
In new legal content? Not like the crazy ornithopter fun from old school? Dayum. You scare me. ;)

Naw, vintage, though one key card is restricted, thus turns the chances of it happening to very low.

LargoLaGrande
07-17-2013, 02:56 PM
No. It would be something to look into if it could be consistently done through hate cards by turn 4/5, but neither of the ones I know how to do are feasible under normal conditions (unless you have The Transcended One in play, but lets be honest here, not only do you deserve to win with an unanswered Transcended One, but these combos aren't very optimal under that scenario).

I don't know if you have a background in MTG but both Melira Pod and Splinter Twin are top teir decks in Modern and can go off on turn 4/5 and gain infinite life, do infinite damage or make infinite haste creatures. Neither of them are broken because there is enough disruption in the format that other decks can slow Pod/Twin down enough to win. Things are never broken in a vacuum, you have to look at the overall format to decide if it's really too strong. Even then, if something is too strong now it could easily be terrible two months later when people start metagaming against that strategy (Dredge went through a cycle of being the best, then getting hated out, then seeing no play so people drop their graveyard hate, and then being the best again).

Aradon
07-17-2013, 03:04 PM
There's a big difference between having an infinite combo in all of the Legacy card pool, and having an infinite combo in precisely the Alpha set. Then again, I think it was Alpha that you could T1 black lotus, channel-fireball. Not quite infinite, but deadly enough, and pretty easy to assemble.

funktion
07-17-2013, 03:04 PM
Not to make y'all hate me, but if there is a legit (albeit near impossible) legal turn of events that gives you infinite threshold/life with over 1000 resources, wouldnt that be a broke combo that needs some looking into by Hex?

Really that's not enough info. It depends on what hoops you have to jump through to get there. Does it really matter HOW you win the game? If both players put in the same thought / effort / skill into their technical playing and deckbuilding then why does it matter if I won by attacking with 2/2 orcs which I played on turn one or through some huge combo?

If it's something that only takes 2 cards and can be pulled off on turn 1 with a high success rate, then yeah that pretty overpowered. I think you're looking at things from the wrong angle though. There are TONS of really bad free to play card games out there were the only way you can win is through combat... why limit yourself... and even more importantly why mimic games which you know are terrible.

wurtil
07-17-2013, 03:32 PM
AH.... the quest for the fabled third way

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fabled

Well, the "third way" isn't celebrated in any fables. Only three people seem to know it, so it isn't famous. Can I then take this as confirmation that it is indeed fictitious? ;)

Kslidz
07-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Not to make y'all hate me, but if there is a legit (albeit near impossible) legal turn of events that gives you infinite threshold/life with over 1000 resources, wouldnt that be a broke combo that needs some looking into by Hex?

Not to be a debbie downer, but lets be real.


Now back to your theory crafting.

ok one all of these from what I can tell require 2 specific cards turn 1 (one is specific resource so 13-15/60, and a four of at most so 4/60) in a hand of 7 which is ~ 9%

turn 2 however lets assume I do not know what the the best combination is so we can assume it only includes 4 out of our 6 cards had. (one of them will be a resource and none of the rest will be duplicates) ~ 00.02 So that can only happen to a very specific deck every 2 out of 10,000 times... oh wait we didn't even think about the the turn one hand with this one, so only 2 every 100,000 games with a specific deck

So correct me if I am wrong but .002% is not enough to worry one deck about.

Xarek
07-18-2013, 01:30 AM
Turn 3 infinite is not possible if cost is always constant and not affected by 'pay [X] less' cards.

Eierdotter
07-18-2013, 02:32 AM
somewhere here is a list of cards that affect the cost of cards and how they affect them
making you pay less or making the card cost less is a important difference.

altering the cost to play a card (Dream Dance) affects only the number in the top left corner?
altering the action cost (Archmage Wrenlocke) affects only Basicactions and Quickactions card types and not activatable effects like from the new totem, or are they considered actions too?

BTW some cords enter play exhausted (played from hand, from graveyard, created, they enter always exhausted) for example hex engine, IE

wurtil
07-18-2013, 02:42 AM
Let me add to that, the only cards that are spoiled that can change the costs of other cards are:
Spirit Dance (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Spirit-Dance/133)
Shrine of Prosperity (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Shrine-of-Prosperity/83)
Princess Victoria (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Princess-Victoria/44)(and she only reduces her own cost)

These cards, just change how much you pay to play them, they are still costed the same:
Archmage Wrenlocke (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Archmage-Wrenlocke/184)
Dream Dance (http://http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Dream-Dance/185)
Journeyman Technician (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Journeyman-Technician/34)
These will not interact with cards like Eye of Creation (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Eye-of-Creation/186) or Heavy Welding Bot (http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Heavy-Welding-Bot/210) to play cards at a reduced cost.

This is the one (Argus also fits in the first list, but I don't think that's relevant for this one).

Wait, does this mean we are back to Turn 3 X=large now? I would love to have my sanity back, as I feel like I'm bashing against a wall with nothing to show for it trying to squeeze out a Turn 3 infinite.

Xarek
07-18-2013, 07:08 AM
This is the one (Argus also fits in the first list, but I don't think that's relevant for this one).

Wait, does this mean we are back to Turn 3 X=large now? I would love to have my sanity back, as I feel like I'm bashing against a wall with nothing to show for it trying to squeeze out a Turn 3 infinite.

Yes I have lost my t3 infinite if the cost thing is correct. I think it needs a ruling though as to whether cost is actually a permanent thing independent of what is displayed on the card.

Aradon
07-18-2013, 07:31 AM
Yes I have lost my t3 infinite if the cost thing is correct. I think it needs a ruling though as to whether cost is actually a permanent thing independent of what is displayed on the card.

A card's cost is what is printed on the upper left corner. If a card says "X spells cost Y less to cast" it only changes how much you pay for it, not the cost. If a card says, "Reduce the cost of target spell to 0" or "Troops in your deck get a permanent cost reduction" then the actual card is modified. Notably, you're most likely to see actions and quick actions change actual costs, while static effects like Journeyman Technician modify how much you pay.

On a tangental note: Is the new version Technical Genius or Journeyman Technician?

Aradon
07-18-2013, 07:40 AM
Also, are you guys assuming playing first (and thus no draw turn 1) or playing second, to draw on your first turn?

I can reach Eye of Creation for 4 on turn 3 on the play, but for 6 on the draw. Not sure if there's a more potent way to do it, but I wouldn't be surprised :P

Kslidz
07-18-2013, 07:54 AM
Also, are you guys assuming playing first (and thus no draw turn 1) or playing second, to draw on your first turn?

I can reach Eye of Creation for 4 on turn 3 on the play, but for 6 on the draw. Not sure if there's a more potent way to do it, but I wouldn't be surprised :P

On the play I can get over 1000 on turn 3, (albiet more impossible than me becoming a raptor), so yes there is a more potent way.

Erebus
07-18-2013, 09:33 AM
When I looked at the cards I saw them in two different wordings that meant a world of difference to me.

Shrine and Ninja training says "a permanent cost -[1] " or "permanent +[1] cost"

Whereas Journeyman, Dream dance etc says "you pay 1 less to play" x

The wording on these cards are different enough that we can make blanket assumption that the first modify the cost and the second only modify the number of temporary resources spent to play the card.

LargoLaGrande
07-18-2013, 11:31 AM
This is the one (Argus also fits in the first list, but I don't think that's relevant for this one).

Wait, does this mean we are back to Turn 3 X=large now? I would love to have my sanity back, as I feel like I'm bashing against a wall with nothing to show for it trying to squeeze out a Turn 3 infinite.

Well, now that we're off of turn 3 infinities, I messaged funktion a couple days about about a rules question and he decided that cards your opponent owns go into their graveyard when cast/killed even if you're the one who cast/controlled them. I don't know how much that affects the rest of you but it set me back by a few hundred mana.

MercuryMonkey
07-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Well, now that we're off of turn 3 infinities, I messaged funktion a couple days about about a rules question and he decided that cards your opponent owns go into their graveyard when cast/killed even if you're the one who cast/controlled them. I don't know how much that affects the rest of you but it set me back by a few hundred mana.

That ruling would make the one I have for turn 3 x=2434 reduce to 1440 I think.

wurtil
07-18-2013, 12:10 PM
Well crap, that drops me down by about 512 :(

Edit: bad at math.

Quasari
07-18-2013, 12:36 PM
This is the one (Argus also fits in the first list, but I don't think that's relevant for this one).

I forgot about Argus.

LargoLaGrande
07-18-2013, 12:48 PM
Well crap, that drops me down by about 512 :(

Edit: bad at math.

And now I'm going to spend all day figuring out where those extra powers of two are coming from -_-

edit: Alright, I'm actually not. I just need to remember how to math properly.

Aradon
07-18-2013, 02:42 PM
Up to X=14 on turn 3, but I can't understand how you guys are repeatedly doubling your available mana / cost reducers. I've been looking for a way to recycle actions from graveyards, but it looks like all we have is Call the Grave. Pretty sure I can cast every spell in the game, but all of the mana comes in tapped, making it useless for a T3 win. Ironically, there's no need to cast Eye of Creation for any value of X at this point, since I can cast those spells anyways, but the challenge is the challenge :P

Kslidz
07-18-2013, 03:00 PM
Up to X=14 on turn 3, but I can't understand how you guys are repeatedly doubling your available mana / cost reducers. I've been looking for a way to recycle actions from graveyards, but it looks like all we have is Call the Grave. Pretty sure I can cast every spell in the game, but all of the mana comes in tapped, making it useless for a T3 win. Ironically, there's no need to cast Eye of Creation for any value of X at this point, since I can cast those spells anyways, but the challenge is the challenge :P

you will find the card you are looking for eventually in fact im a little interested in how you manage 17 mana with out this card. but not interested enough to figure it out





If decks end up having exactly 60 cards in hex this will be a sad sad day for this thread then

my infinite T4 and over 1000 T3 both exist within the realm of 60 card decks each and dont deck themselves

Kslidz
07-18-2013, 03:10 PM
double up

Aradon
07-18-2013, 04:14 PM
Infinite on turn 4 is pretty easy to do without even going close to 60 cards (if improbable). It helps that you don't need to waste 20 slots on sources, since you probably won't need more than 5 in your deck.
I'm still stuck on X=46 on turn 3, though. I think I'm missing an obvious card somewhere. Maybe using an incomplete database or something. This will get a lot easier when the full set is spoiled, though :D

MercuryMonkey
07-18-2013, 04:21 PM
My earlier re-adjustment from x=2434 to x=1440 was wrong, it should actually be x=1922 after redoing the math.

Kslidz
07-18-2013, 07:22 PM
My earlier re-adjustment from x=2434 to x=1440 was wrong, it should actually be x=1922 after redoing the math.

so we are obviously on the same page, number for number.

personally I found it more rewarding to find a way to recur all needed creatures than to increase mana, hbu?

funktion
07-18-2013, 07:25 PM
Hey guys, just checking in real quick. My inbox on the forums keeps filling up (not complaining one bit though bout that) Just wanted to give you a heads up though because there were a few pm's sent to me today that were declined since it was full. I gotta clean it up, so resend them in a couple hours if they were sent back.

For what it's worth, I found the recursion ones a little more interesting as they were something I'd never thought of (or at least hadn't thought of them in the way which they were done I should say)

MercuryMonkey
07-19-2013, 06:56 AM
so we are obviously on the same page, number for number.

personally I found it more rewarding to find a way to recur all needed creatures than to increase mana, hbu?

Yeah I found the same especially given that the current set of spoiled cards don't leave that many options when it comes to generating resources.

wurtil
07-19-2013, 07:55 AM
Sent in my revised message for Turn 3, X=33416

Armies
07-19-2013, 09:41 AM
Sent in my revised message for Turn 3, X=33416

Inconceivable!!!!

Xarek
07-19-2013, 11:48 AM
Sent in my revised message for Turn 3, X=33416

Right, it's Friday at last so I can work on this again. I'm coming for you ;)

LargoLaGrande
07-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Inconceivable!!!!

The inconceivable bit is where he is ending on an even number.

Kslidz
07-19-2013, 12:11 PM
The inconceivable bit is where he is ending on an even number.
?


I think you may have missed something as I think I know what you are referring to and it is an incorrect assumption

LargoLaGrande
07-19-2013, 12:43 PM
?


I think you may have missed something as I think I know what you are referring to and it is an incorrect assumption

I'm definitely missing things since I'm only up to x=4817, but I would still be surprised if the optimal solution ends up on an even number.

edit: Unless the assumption is that mokog/funktion would let me do such a thing in the first place :/

Kslidz
07-19-2013, 01:06 PM
I'm definitely missing things since I'm only up to x=4817, but I would still be surprised if the optimal solution ends up on an even number.

edit: Unless the assumption is that mokog/funktion would let me do such a thing in the first place :/

not 100% sure on how you got there but I would bet a better number for you would be 4820. Also did nyou multiple 9 times or 8 times, if you did it 9 times then isn't everything you have exhausted and incapable of creating resources?

LargoLaGrande
07-19-2013, 01:37 PM
I see what you're saying, and no, I'm not leaking 3 mana from that specifically. I don't know what you're referring to exactly with your question, but I'm pretty sure the answer is that 7 times is actually slightly better than 8. But I also just proved to myself that I'm bad at Hex so YMMV.

Mokog
07-20-2013, 08:39 PM
So we are sitting at 12 days until the last submission will be accepted (Aug 1st). Remember to keep your card use as lean as you can. If someone hits your same value for turn 3 or turn 4 the smallest use of cards is going to win the grand prize. I want to thank the Hexers who put their entries into spread sheets. I speak excel pretty well so those were very nice to double check. Keep submitting your answers to Funktion and myself. Subscribe to both of our channels and watch for updates. Who knows, maybe we can drop a hint.... maybe after I see the fuss y'all make about it :-)

~Mokog

Showsni
07-22-2013, 03:53 PM
Shame Archmage Wrenlocke is unique, or you could really open a can of worms...

Eierdotter
07-24-2013, 02:54 AM
About the cards used part how are they counted, is it
60 minus "not used cards from the deck" = cards used
or cards used,
for example I play a charge bot, kill it with a burn and get it into my hand with a call the grave
and play the charge bot again to charge me once more. Is this scenario counting 3 or 4 cards ?
i played 4 cards, but i have (60-57=3) only 3 cardslots used).

Ohh and are we again at Turn 3 how much is X
and turn 4 less used cards for infinite mana?

wurtil
07-25-2013, 11:23 AM
I believe it was stated as "cards played from hand". So in the example above, I imagine it would count as 4 since you played the charge bot twice from your hand.

At least I sure hope that's how it goes, I don't really wanna redo the math that got me up to 5799 cards played from hand on turn 3

Mokog
07-29-2013, 05:17 PM
We have just a few more days until entry into the contest is closed. So you still have a chance to show up all of the posters here with your answer! As a reminder Funktion and I will need to be able to cross reference your entry with our subscriber lists be nice to us please :-P. If you have the best answer but have not subscribed to both channels kiss your entries good bye. We want to give away these packs but the rules guy in me is going to be very strict on this issue. Submit, subscribe and win!

~Mokog

nicosharp
07-30-2013, 11:59 AM
Very interesting contest. I was brain storming over this last night, and there are quite a few active cards in this scenario.

Umaro
07-30-2013, 03:17 PM
I submitted, but I regret doing so. I could have added an additional 22 so far in theory. T___T I'm not going to ask Mokog to disregard again, so I'll just leave it as is.

Edit: Nevermind, like 1300 more. Still not enough to compete with some of the numbers I'm seeing on here though.

funktion
07-30-2013, 05:47 PM
Very interesting contest. I was brain storming over this last night, and there are quite a few active cards in this scenario.

That's what I love most about this, many of the cards that are "active" here are ones I would have never thought of... WAY WAY out of left field... just a few more hours to go.

Mokog
07-30-2013, 08:45 PM
I am verifying all the entries and submissions. I hope I don't have to cut any of the commenters here because they didn't subscribe...... I will just have to use my Shin'hare Ritualist knife.

nicosharp
07-30-2013, 09:10 PM
So, I just want to say I had a fun time doing this mental exercise. I found a way to go off on turn 4 for over 600 (being on the play, not the draw). I am sure I could go higher, but stopped at that. I will be interested to see how people are going off turn 3 in 5x digits.

Eierdotter
07-31-2013, 01:46 AM
Ohh i have a big one now, using a retarded amount of different cards (many of them you would not even think about using for this^^).
Just have to fiddle them together, i am curious how much X i can ramp for turn 3 with this...

I am so excited about the other solutions !!!

Edit: X=1922 seems i am not the only one with this number.

Pentregarth
07-31-2013, 05:01 AM
Figured out both a way to go infinite in turn 5 and x>1000 in turn 4, but since both those are already surpassed by posters here, I'll spare myself the pain of spelling them out card by card and just not submit at all ;)

nicosharp
07-31-2013, 09:30 AM
Fiddled around a bit more, and found a way to go quasi-infinite turn 4 (well over a million)
It involves "At start of turn" priority windows, and whether or not unique modifiers can be stacked on a single card (which I think they can)

The combo still requires a crazy amount of cards, but is more manageable this way, and requires some tuned knowledge of priority window triggers.

I can't wrap my head around the turn 3 infinite though.. I really am curious.

(Edit: Funny how every hour more I spend thinking about this, I keep improving my Turn 4 outcome.. I am under the firm believe you can go infinite on turn 4 without a problem(or at least infinite until the day ends or your opponent quits from triggers), using the "at start of turn" priority windows, after numerous recursion methods turn 3 on a special troop.)

Eierdotter
07-31-2013, 10:25 AM
Turn 3 infinite... i pray that this is only due to a little misreading of a cards text and the rules.
Otherwise it would be very frustrating considering the amount of time i thought about this challenge^^

Yay only a few hours left until the solutions get revealed!

nicosharp
08-02-2013, 01:31 PM
Are you guys planning to share the answers received? If so, when and through what media?

Rycajo
08-02-2013, 01:53 PM
I find it funny that the answers to this puzzle have likely been ruined by the changes to cards in today's update.

Good thing the contest just finished up a couple of days ago.

nicosharp
08-02-2013, 02:37 PM
I find it funny that the answers to this puzzle have likely been ruined by the changes to cards in today's update.

Good thing the contest just finished up a couple of days ago.
Oh wow... you are right. Looks like they axed Journeyman Technician and made him Technical Genius.. and Doppelgadget now transforms into a card rather than create a copy. Bummer.....

Those are significant nerfs to artifact decks.

Although if you look at cards under sapphire it still shows this:
http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/JourneymanTechnician_Gear_W.jpg

Looks like standard vanilla troop curve decks will be the standard play method for set 1.

funktion
08-03-2013, 01:05 AM
By my count, I've personally received entries from 16 different people. I've been going over them today to check for errors. There were numerous entries for infinite on turn 4. It seems like the best turn 3 entry is in the tens of thousands, there could be one for infinite but it's fairly complex and I think it contains an error so waiting to hear back from that person.

Thanks for all the interest guys, once mokog and I compare notes I expect that we'll be posting the results some time next week.