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Gwaer
07-12-2013, 10:19 PM
There's a thread already ostensibly about Competitive-PVE, and all of these ideas came from that thread, but it is huge, and honestly about very different things. I'd like to brainstorm with the community about what is possible in a tournament PVE environment.
Tournament PVE in my mind would not include any account exclusives, No RL buff, Possibly no mercs, just base champs, at the very least a ban list of OP mercs based on the format.
Ultimately I feel like the "Anything goes" PVE enabled competition is a PVP format, not a tournament PVE one.

I suggest that each time you compete in one of these tournaments you get points on your account for completing milestones, let them add up for a set amount of time, call it a season or something, and person with the most points is the grand champ, there can be all sorts of rewards available... You could use your points in a point store, or you could just get set prizes based on the amount you got.

Onto the list!
Surival modes:
Survival mode 1 -Possibly have your deck lose cards when they go to GY, and see how far you can make it?
Raid boss gauntlet of power tower - one extremely powerful boss after the next you fight with the same deck/s
survival mode 2 - you lose 1 or 2 life the more you fight. max you can lost maybe is 15 to 18 lives. we will see a lot of innovative decks trying to survive this mode and try and get as far as they can
survival mode 3 - Survival mode 2 + Survival mode 1
speed runs - Attempting to gather as many "points" or go as far as possible in a never-ending multi stage tournament in a set amount of time

deck constraint runs - either normal dungeons/raids with specific pre-made deck, some sort of restricted deck rules or any of these other types with additional deck constraints.

World first tournament - Throw a modified dungeon/raid at people, give them a set amount of time, and let them conquer it.


massive global / regional bosses - bosses with thousands of lives and people can attack it at the same time and every X seconds, it uses cards / spells / creature clones that affect everyone. it will be chaotic and probably very hard to code but it will be an epic battle and those surviving the battle will be rewardedeg.
creature turn 1. fireball to deal 4 hp to all
creature turn 2 - discard the top 3 cards on everyone's deck
creature creatureturn 3 - summon a 5/5 clone creature with berserk (auto attack the first available target after you end your turn)
creature creatureturn 4 - deal 20 damage minus the turns that the player already made (prevents turtles)
creature turn 5 - deal 20 damage minus the damage that the player dealt on the creature / his minion
creature turn 6 - everyone loses 3 resources
and so on and so forth

dungeon using random premade decks - this will be a series of fights and on each fight you get to choose from a random of premade decks (assuming all decks are constructed to be able to defeat the boss on that area)

wheel of misfortune - can be added to any dungeon but after every fight, you spin the wheel and then you deal with whatever is on there and the misfortune stays with you until the last fighteg. randomly lose 5 cards from your deck, start with -1 resource, start with only 15 lives, only 2 creatures can attack per turn, all spells cost 1 more to play

these will really make the PvE experience challenging

(someone suggested competitive pve was where carebears tried to hug one another and everyone got trophies. I'd like to see that mode.)

Modifications, suggestions, complaints? Lets hear it.

*Update for yoss 7/31: There have been a lot of fantastic ideas since the last time I edited, and they are all over the map. Please read through them and contribute any input you have. I've given up hope being able to organize them. If CZE needed any ideas I'm certain they will take the time to wade through here, because you guys have had some real winners.

Justinkp
07-12-2013, 10:36 PM
Gwaer was telling me about this in another thread and while I think the control/banning of mercs/exclusives is a good, perhaps even necessary, method in general, every once in a while I'd like to see a "no limits, go crazy" version of some of these. Of course if there's a prize structure for these those would get little if any prizes.

I don't have any specific events to add but I do like the idea of a Hex Olympics or decatholon where you have to be good at all of these events. That way you'd see the people who are the best at one particular "event" and those who may not be at the peak of any one but are excellent at many. That would appeal to me at least.

Well I actually did thonk of one possible event-maybe seeing the lowest level you can complete a particular dungeon? Possibly with additional deck constraints. Similarly seeing how low you can solo a raid boss could be interesting.

I'd also like to see coop/team challenges though I don't have anything specific at the moment.

Edit: I like the point ideas that you can spend in a store etc. but I'm not sure this will be implemented until you show a lot of interest in it. It might be best at first to try to get a group together to organize these events with your own prizes and entry fees. If you make an organization dedicated to this with input from multiple guilds you could also get donations from community minded players and those who rreally want to see this type of thing become popular.

Gwaer
07-13-2013, 07:56 AM
That's a good point about parties. I think each of these could have raid modes where you're working cooperatively with friends.

Id also like to see if anyone could come up with a mode that makes you work against other players without directly interfacing with other players. Like a tug of war style who can score the most points... I guess it would be kind of like multiplayer tetris. You're each doing your own thing but can effect the play field on the other side sometimes.

majin
07-13-2013, 07:58 AM
things i want to see

survival mode 2 - you lose 1 or 2 life the more you fight. max you can lost maybe is 15 to 18 lives. we will see a lot of innovative decks trying to survive this mode and try and get as far as they can

survival mode 3 - survival mode 2 + gwaers survival mode

massive global / regional bosses - bosses with thousands of lives and people can attack it at the same time and every X seconds, it uses cards / spells / creature clones that affect everyone. it will be chaotic and probably very hard to code but it will be an epic battle and those surviving the battle will be rewarded

eg.
creature turn 1. fireball to deal 4 hp to all
creature turn 2 - discard the top 3 cards on everyone's deck
creature creatureturn 3 - summon a 5/5 clone creature with berserk (auto attack the first available target after you end your turn)
creature creatureturn 4 - deal 20 damage minus the turns that the player already made (prevents turtles)
creature turn 5 - deal 20 damage minus the damage that the player dealt on the creature / his minion
creature turn 6 - everyone loses 3 resources
and so on and so forth

dungeon using random premade decks - this will be a series of fights and on each fight you get to choose from a random of premade decks (assuming all decks are constructed to be able to defeat the boss on that area)

wheel of misfortune - can be added to any dungeon but after every fight, you spin the wheel and then you deal with whatever is on there and the misfortune stays with you until the last fight

eg. randomly lose 5 cards from your deck, start with -1 resource, start with only 15 lives, only 2 creatures can attack per turn, all spells cost 1 more to play

these will really make the PvE experience challenging

Stok3d
07-13-2013, 09:55 AM
Thank you Gwaer for the consolidation. The other thread was massive.

Reading the below makes me think of what D3 did. I really think it would be funny if Hex did something similar to be funny as a parody :)

(someone suggested competitive pve was where carebears tried to hug one another and everyone got trophies. I'd like to see that mode.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ACv1HQM2AQ

Gwaer
07-14-2013, 10:47 AM
Those are great idea majin, I'll fold them into the OP, and reformat it for clarity as soon as I am not foruming on my phone.

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 12:14 PM
Cory does a lot of talk about people becoming raid bosses, and having others pay to raid with them, and have amazing loot tables with a hard enough raid. How about a tournament mode as a training step for that? Let you take over\create a monster deck, and let the AI play 3 decks against you. Not sure what it would be called.

TAEGA
07-15-2013, 02:38 PM
Cory does a lot of talk about people becoming raid bosses, and having others pay to raid with them, and have amazing loot tables with a hard enough raid.

Sorry just want to have something clarified.

I was under the impression that Cory was talking about people becoming a Raid Boss and having people pay the Raid Boss to play against them (So not with them). Basically if I am a Raid Boss, people can pay me to play against them and if they win then they would get loot according to my Raid Boss level.

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 02:50 PM
Yes, Raid against them is the wording I should have used I guess. That's how I understand it to work as well.

Stok3d
07-15-2013, 02:51 PM
I'm rather excited about this feature. I've already thought of a few I'm going to make :)

TAEGA
07-15-2013, 03:08 PM
Thanks for clarifying Gwaer.

I'm with you Stok3d, I'm excited about this feature as well. I'm anxious to see how this will be implemented, will you get a special deck (or special cards) to use against others for defeating a dungeon boss by yourself? (next to impossible to do, at least that's what I read - someplace :)). Or do you build you own deck to use as a Raid Boss? Maybe there will also be an option to buy a Raid Boss deck.

Will the raids against you take place at your in-game Castle or Citadel you get to customize? Would be a neat idea.

Sorry Gwaer did not mean to derail your topic.

BossHoss
07-15-2013, 04:04 PM
The Amazing Race: Entrath

- Timed Race around Entrath (quick, long and enduro modes)

- Random Generated PvE Sealed and Clue pack
~ 6 pack PvE deck build and Clue to be solved as to which city to travel to next

- Defeat "Task" in the city to receive a new 3 pack sealed and Clue pack
~ Rebuild deck and solve clue for directions to next city

- Timed leaderboards and tournament buy-in prize pool
~ 1st run 100g, 2nd run 200g, 3rd run 400g etc. Half pool gold sink and other half prize pool
- Weekly payout and reset

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 05:22 PM
Sorry Gwaer did not mean to derail your topic.
No worries, I'm very interested in that mode, even if it doesn't quite fit the topic =)


The Amazing Race: Entrath

That's a really neat idea BH, I assume in your vision you don't keep the cards from the sealed packs, just use them in that particular tournament.

Dinotropia
07-15-2013, 06:12 PM
In regards to a tug of war / tennis style mode, how about a mode for two people where creatures on the AI side go into play against your opponent instead of to the graveyard?

Essentially, it would be a survival mode of sorts where two people cue against an AI controlled deck. They would each play separately (e.g. 1v1 | 1v1 instead of a raid scenario with 1v2). However, when you kill the AI's creatures they are put in play against your opponent as if summoned instead of to the graveyard. The goal would be to see who could survive the longest / kill the AI first.

Admittedly, this is a bit more PvP than PvE, but it sounds fun in my head :D

Kietay
07-15-2013, 07:50 PM
PvE Tournament 1.) In one years time, who can farm the most items to improve the speed you farm items to farm more items to improve the speed you farm items to farm more items.

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 08:47 PM
Gotta make sure it's not a dungeon. DC's would destroy. =P

BossHoss
07-15-2013, 10:28 PM
That's a really neat idea BH, I assume in your vision you don't keep the cards from the sealed packs, just use them in that particular tournament.

Correct...

Drunken Tavern Brawl:

Massive Multiplayer fight and being digital only this could work... Like a drunken bar fight you don't know who you are hitting or who is hitting you.

Everyone enters with a deck. Play your first turn and your opponent plays theirs. Now before your turn 2 starts you "pick up" your deck and board state and fight someone else randomly for a turn. You play, they play, pick up... rinse and repeat until last man standing. To speed the game up everyone after the first group to finish their turn takes a damage from "a random bottle/chair" but the first person finished takes 2 damage if they didn`t play a spell this turn (preventing speed priority passes).

This could be pretty fun creating mini puzzles and having to figure out how to solve each turn individually

majin
07-16-2013, 05:06 AM
Drunken Tavern Brawl:


nice idea. i really wish they can solve the 'long wait before turns' to make most of these ideas feasible.

if i remember it correctly, cory already said that 2v2 or NvN can be handled by the current system already. the only problem is the wait time between turns

Yoss
07-17-2013, 08:35 AM
World first tournament - Throw a modified dungeon/raid at people, give them a set amount of time, and let them conquer it.
This is not what people like Meldryn (link) and myself expect "World First" to mean, as we discussed in the thread you've claimed to summarize. Please rename the quoted item to something else and add a true World First to the list, preferrably with top billing. Cory confirmed in the Saturday interview that World First achievements will be built into the game.

"World First Tournament - The first 20 teams to complete a given dungeon or raid. See [post=268607]this post (link)[/post"
(You need to add the closing bracket to make the link work.)

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 08:49 AM
Correct...

Drunken Tavern Brawl:

Massive Multiplayer fight and being digital only this could work... Like a drunken bar fight you don't know who you are hitting or who is hitting you.

Everyone enters with a deck. Play your first turn and your opponent plays theirs. Now before your turn 2 starts you "pick up" your deck and board state and fight someone else randomly for a turn. You play, they play, pick up... rinse and repeat until last man standing. To speed the game up everyone after the first group to finish their turn takes a damage from "a random bottle/chair" but the first person finished takes 2 damage if they didn`t play a spell this turn (preventing speed priority passes).

This could be pretty fun creating mini puzzles and having to figure out how to solve each turn individually

Now that would be awesome!

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 10:00 AM
Cory didn't say that it would be a tournament though yoss. This suggestion isn't just about any old person with RL, and Mercs getting the world first achievement. It's about a much more structured mode.

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 10:34 AM
Cory confirmed in the Saturday interview that World First achievements will be built into the game.

I hope to one day get one of the World Firsts. I think that would be fun!

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 10:41 AM
I hope to one day get one of the World Firsts. I think that would be fun!

I will get World First to not whine when mana screwed. And Im sure it will happen game one I play....

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 10:43 AM
I will get World First to not whine when mana screwed. And Im sure it will happen game one I play....

Why would people whine when mana screwed? I don't get it. It happens to everyone, sure it can suck but its not something to whine over.

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 10:45 AM
Why would people whine when mana screwed? I don't get it. It happens to everyone, sure it can suck but its not something to whine over.

IDK why, but every game Ive ever played where mu opponent got it, you hear throught the game, and after "If only I had 1 more mountain I would have won....I cant draw mana and its killing me.....This deck shouldnt do this to me..." etc

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 11:02 AM
IDK why, but every game Ive ever played where mu opponent got it, you hear throught the game, and after "If only I had 1 more mountain I would have won....I cant draw mana and its killing me.....This deck shouldnt do this to me..." etc

Until you realize, its just an excuse for their own failures and they never could have beat you anyway, then you laugh because they can't possibly be responsible for their own loss. Anyone but themselves! SIGH.

Vibraxus
07-17-2013, 11:06 AM
Until you realize, its just an excuse for their own failures and they never could have beat you anyway, then you laugh because they can't possibly be responsible for their own loss. Anyone but themselves! SIGH.

Hence my World First as I accept it when I fail and work to improve where I failed.

Yoss
07-17-2013, 12:06 PM
Cory didn't say that it would be a tournament though yoss. This suggestion isn't just about any old person with RL, and Mercs getting the world first achievement. It's about a much more structured mode.
True, he didn't say tournament, he just confirmed that World First will be something they will track and it will not be left to 3rd parties. Yet nothing else on your list has even been mentioned by CZE let alone confirmed, so World First has at least as much credibility as everything else you have listed there.

Also, I take issue with what you're calling "World First" because it's not. World First is who can beat new content first; it is not a race to beat old-but-tweaked content. At the very least you need to re-name what you're currently calling "World First". If you refuse to put true World First on your list, that's your choice, but do not attempt to redefine the term just for your convenience.

Regarding true World First pursuit, the same old arguments from the other thread apply here about parity of internal constraints (aka level playing field). As proposed in that thread, account-bound exclusives need to be blocked from World First (or at least be tracked separately). The most obvious way for CZE to accomplish that is to define World First as a tournament (and thus the RL exception is invoked).

Proposal for how to enable competitive PVE (link)
Article on competitive PVE in World of Warcraft and how it applies to Hex (link)

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 01:16 PM
I think you're mistaking what this thread is about yoss. If something on my list has been confirmed by CZE it wouldn't need to be on the list anymore. It's just brainstorming interesting ideas for potential crowd sourced ideas.

Your argument that a tournament to first to complete with never before seen challenges isn't world first to complete it is insane. Sorry you take issue with it. But I really don't know why. Also. In my structure people that had made partial progress would likely get some number of points on the ladder. So it isn't a waste of time for them.

I never for one second thought there wouldn't be an achievement for being the first to complete a dungeon or raid. Like i said. This is about grabbing that race to be first to do something exhilaration, and putting tournament constraints to level the playing field. No exclusives no buffs. Etc.

Yoss
07-17-2013, 01:33 PM
I take issue with what you're calling "World First" because it's not. World First is who can beat new content first; it is not a race to beat old-but-tweaked content. At the very least you need to re-name what you're currently calling "World First". If you refuse to put true World First on your list, that's your choice, but do not attempt to redefine the term just for your convenience.

Proposal for how to enable competitive PVE (link)
Article on competitive PVE in World of Warcraft and how it applies to Hex (link)


Your argument that a tournament to first to complete with never before seen challenges isn't world first to complete it is insane. Sorry you take issue with it. But I really don't know why. Also. In my structure people that had made partial progress would likely get some number of points on the ladder. So it isn't a waste of time for them.
What you're calling "World First", as if it's the only thing out there that "World First" could be, could be renamed to "World First Type 2" if you like, but do not exclude the normal definition of "World First" that I called out above.

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 02:02 PM
It's the only thing that has been suggested that is a tournament.... So it's the only world first suggested tournament thus far... The generic achievement hunt is not a tournament, and is outside the scope of this thread.

Yoss
07-17-2013, 03:15 PM
The generic achievement hunt [for World First] is not a tournament, and is outside the scope of this thread.
You continue to claim this without ever having refuted my argument that World First (in it's normal definition) could be considered a tournament (link).

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 05:20 PM
It's a pretty simple concept at this point yoss, thread is for ideas for tournaments that would not include Mercs or Buffs and could include ladder points and whatnot for rewards. That's not possible in an achievement situation. The first person to beat a dungeon will get the achievement regardless of how or what was used its an achievement. A different thing than the stuff being discussed here. I'm surprised at you. Generally you try to keep threads on topic. Your concerns have been noted. Anyone can see them. If you can't advance this conversation then feel free to move along.

Yoss
07-17-2013, 05:25 PM
The achievement can and should be awarded to more than just #1. It should go to something like top 20, each with a marker to show rank.

Lind
07-18-2013, 08:22 AM
Id also like to see if anyone could come up with a mode that makes you work against other players without directly interfacing with other players. Like a tug of war style who can score the most points... I guess it would be kind of like multiplayer tetris. You're each doing your own thing but can effect the play field on the other side sometimes.

Off the top of my head a few tug of war mechanics I can think of. Split into two portions Mechanics and Format

Mechanics

Raid Boss Shifted HP.

The raid boss has a split HP pool between party 1 and party 2. For illustrative purposes say a split pool of 100 and 100. If party 1 does 5 damage, their raid boss goes to 95 while party 2's raid boss goes to 105.

Raid Boss Shifted Minions

The raid boss conserves minions between party 1 and party 2. If raid boss 1 summons a battle hopper and party 1 kills it, raid boss 2 suddenly gains a battle hopper. And if party 2 kills a kraken... look out party 1.

Raid Boss Stolen Minions

Any minions a raid boss kills get put into play by the competing raid boss. If raid boss 1 kills a battle hopper from party 1 raid boss 2 suddenly gains a battle hopper. And if raid boss 2 suddenly kills party 2's kraken... look out party 1.

Format

Near Real time Update

Tug of war mechanics take effect in real time or as close to it as possible. For example a boss shared life pool can happen immediately. A mechanic like minion transferring may require the end of a play turn to implement. Ie party 1 and 2 start play at the same time but party 1 plays faster. When player 1 in party 2 finishes their turn, player 3 in party 1 is in the middle of their turn. In this scenario, whatever mechanics party 1 accumulated by playing faster sit in a small queue and show up as player 2 in party 2 starts their turn.


Synchronized Updates

All mechanics resolve during a preset time like the start of a Boss's turn and the game halts until all parties get there. So if all members of party 1 finish their round in 5 minutes, but party 2 finishes their round in 10, party 1 sits for 5 minutes until both parties have lined up their turn order again.

Additional Mechanics for this format - Time penalties and or clocks so that 1 party cannot stall indefinitely holding up play for the other party.

Gwaer
07-18-2013, 09:36 AM
How about we shuffle in some special removal cards, instead of all monsters you kill going to the opposing party's board, you have to use one of the special cards to send them over.

Then you can use a bit more strategy.

Lind
07-18-2013, 09:58 AM
Also possible. I am just brain storming. Another idea might be to have an action/charge condition that builds strategy. Rough examples that are horribly imbalanced.

Escalation challenge. Every escalation card team 1 plays charges their raid boss with an escalation counter. Hit 5 counters and something bad happens to team 2. (5 damage to all members of team 2, every card in team 2s raid boss deck gets escalated 2 times, etc.)

Reanimation challenge. For every raid boss creature team 1 successfully reanimates and takes control of, charge their raid boss with a reanimation counter. Hit 3 counters and something bad happens to team 2. (Every creature in team 2's collective graveyards has a 50% change to be reanimated by the raid boss, every creature in raid boss 2 has gains, this creature returns to play from death immediately and loses this ability, etc)

ShadowTycho
07-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Lodestone Challenge players must complete a series of three non-random encounters of fairly easy difficulty. Players are scored based on performance.
The challenge comes from the fact that players are able to select and pick up multiple ‘lodestones’ that sit in play and hinder your ability to play. Each stone also multiplies your score by a number at the end of the series of encounters.
Stones could be destroyed in the match, but probably would not be artifacts or anything that is useful and destroying them would not yield you the bonus.
Harder stones give you a larger multiplier.
Scores go on a ladder.
Example stones:
Burden of Proof When you case a spell you must reveal a card that shares a color woth it from your hand or it is voided.
Burden of the Beast your troops get 0/-1
Burden of Doubt your maximum hand size is decreased by 1
Burden of Sinner you may not gain life.
Burden of Fear your opponents decks are more powerful.
Burden of the Prophet at the start of each game a troop is randomly drawn from your deck with a defense less then 5, and put into play with the text,"This troop cannot attack, block or use activated abilities. If this troop is destroyed or voided, you loose the game."
Burden of Faith you may not mulligan.
Burden of sickness All troops you play have 'at the beginning of your turn this creature's defense is reduced by one permanently."
Burden of honor you may not play spells on your opponents turn
Burden of ancestry Whenever you play a troop it gets a permanent -0/-1 for each other troop that share a type with it.
Burden of solitude All troops and constants you control are legendary.
Burden of the Void all cards put in your graveyard are voided
Burden of the Blunt You may not cast spells other then troop spells
Burden of Commitment lodestones cannot be targeted, are indestructible and cannot be voided.
Burden of panic you must complete the game while only taking 8 minutes on your turns or loose.
added benefit, new stones are new content and allow the ladder to be shaken up dramatically from time to time.

Gwaer
07-18-2013, 12:38 PM
Thats a killer idea ShadowTycho, I really love the lodestone examples, too. Could easily throw some of those into the wheel of misfortune, or just generic point multipliers for many different tournaments.

ShadowTycho
07-18-2013, 03:11 PM
if i had my way i would have it set up so there was an achievement for completing a run with all the stones on would be a world first tracked thing, and have a neat title like "world bearer" associated with it.

ShadowTycho
07-19-2013, 01:53 PM
King of the mountain Players fight a raid bossish encounter that has the buff 'king of the mountain' which is a constant that sits in play from teh start and confers advantages to its controller.
If players win, their decks are copied by the system and made kings of the mountain for all players to try and unseat.

players earn rewards when their decks loose control of the mountain, and the rewards are based on how long they controlled it.

Yoss
07-19-2013, 02:33 PM
Bumps are against COC.

EDIT:
Actually, upon second reading, bumps are not actually against the CoC. The bump restriction is a guideline from Sanik that applies only to this sub-forum. Also, the restriction applies to non-value posts, so the updated post above would not constitute a "bump". The original content-empty post, on the other hand, was a "bump".

ShadowTycho
07-19-2013, 02:43 PM
fixed.

BossHoss
07-19-2013, 03:01 PM
I still think there should be a Raid Yoss ;p

Diplomatic debate dungeon!

ShadowTycho
07-19-2013, 03:08 PM
oh yes. text based adventure dungeon.

Yoss
07-19-2013, 03:36 PM
I still think there should be a Raid Yoss ;p

Diplomatic debate dungeon!
But it would be unbeatable! :p

ShadowTycho
07-19-2013, 07:51 PM
The Taskmaster
as a Loot drop, maybe frome raid bosses or maybe just out of the pack chests, a Card drops.
These cards are like the spectral lotus garden and cant be put in decks, but can be traded.
they also each have a secondary power that turns them into a trophy when a condition is fulfilled, that card is untradeable.
the tasks on each card would be difficult, and you would only be allowed to own one of each at a time.

This idea needs a little more fleshing out because i don't know how you would prevent farming of the easier tasks while also leaving the leader board open ended.

sample tasks:
Multi kill - defeat 4 opponents in a row in a public pvp tournament.
Target: <raid boss> kill <raidboss>

Gwaer
07-19-2013, 07:58 PM
Or kill raid boss while taking no damage/being at one life/dealing so much damage/etc.

Gwaer
07-24-2013, 12:52 PM
score mode/technical execution

In discussing another thread I accidentally had a pretty decent idea, create a mode in virtually any of the described tournaments listed so far that instead of getting scored on victory conditions you get scored at each individual step on the way. For example you may get scored for making the correct decision based on known information. Should you have used your burn right then? Should you have played that particular troop at that time?

It would be a pretty excellent learning tool but very difficult to implement. Perhaps instead you can be scored simply based on number of creatures killed least amount of damage to your creatures many different technical scoring methods are possible. I can envision its own mode. But having difficulty putting it into words. Might end up being more of a minigame and less of a tournament.

Gwaer
07-24-2013, 07:07 PM
There's a thread discussing this for dungeons I hadn't gotten around to adding it to my list yet.
Tournament Draft -
The idea here is that you do a tournament with generated packs specifically for that tournament. No other cards or equipment is allowed. It could drop tournament loot chests that give equipment for this run only. You can do it as a raid, and allow limited trading between different raid members. You could even adapt this to have 2 teams attempting an encounter against one another for points in a sort of competitive indirect pve sort of way.

Zarien
07-24-2013, 11:07 PM
That's a good point about parties. I think each of these could have raid modes where you're working cooperatively with friends.

Id also like to see if anyone could come up with a mode that makes you work against other players without directly interfacing with other players. Like a tug of war style who can score the most points... I guess it would be kind of like multiplayer tetris. You're each doing your own thing but can effect the play field on the other side sometimes.

I think the mode you're thinking of is deckbuilding. I've been working on a article on this and one thing I talk about in the article is how CZE has a prime opportunity to take advantage with the new PvE system like Keeps/raids/etc., and introduce what CZE is best and most known for, and that's competitive deck building. With the PvE system it's completely possible to implement deck-building competitions. We can even take the finished products and have the decks face down the last boss, or goal, or however it was implemented for tie-breakers and stuff.


Cory does a lot of talk about people becoming raid bosses, and having others pay to raid with them, and have amazing loot tables with a hard enough raid. How about a tournament mode as a training step for that? Let you take over\create a monster deck, and let the AI play 3 decks against you. Not sure what it would be called.

I also like the idea of a training mode that could be incorporated for future new players as the game gets older. As the game expands PvE is going to be a massive beast of cards and a tool to introduce that will help ease the process of getting into stuff like keeps and raids. I'm sure CZE is already planning on something like this though.

Justinkp
07-25-2013, 06:06 AM
There's been a lot of great ideas here since I checked last. I had an idea, not sure how good it is or if it even technically qualifies as a tournament (but I don't want to start up the semantic argument of what a tournament is) but I think its close enough or could at least be changed to fit if it doesn't meet your definition. I thought something like a clue hunt could be fun. A bunch of people are given a clue or puzzle, possibly related to the lore and the solution leads to some type of challenge that if you succeed gives you another clue/puzzle. The types of challenges could vary widely and using the lore as a component would be fun for some people and I think the clue/puzzle aspect adds an interesting twist. If this doesn't fit your definition of a tournament would there be an easy way to change it?

Gwaer
07-25-2013, 07:14 AM
Absolutely qualifies Justin. Seems like an extremely versatile mechanic that could open an entire range of potential dungeon/raids/tournaments. The point of this thread is just to crowd source interesting mechanics so CZE has a lot of options for designing encounters. Great input.

Atomzed
07-25-2013, 07:27 AM
I thought something like a clue hunt could be fun. A bunch of people are given a clue or puzzle, possibly related to the lore and the solution leads to some type of challenge that if you succeed gives you another clue/puzzle. The types of challenges could vary widely and using the lore as a component would be fun for some people and I think the clue/puzzle aspect adds an interesting twist. If this doesn't fit your definition of a tournament would there be an easy way to change it?

I remember someone mentioning a similar concept in this thread called Hexploration. I absolutely loved both yours and the other person idea. It should be damn fun.

Another possibility may be the design of a puzzles that require you to think out of the box. In Yu-Gi-Oh Nightmare Troubander, they have puzzles that requires you to kill off the opponent within 1 turn. The deck, the cards and the board state are pre-fixed. You are required to explore unique ways of using the cards to win the opponent, either through direct damage or mill or through creature dmg. It was great fun because some of the puzzles were really hard.

In fact, such a puzzle competition will be truly a World First cos everyone starts with the same deck and same cards.

Gwaer
07-25-2013, 07:42 AM
I had considered several different puzzle modes, that's kind of what I was thinking in the score mode\technical execution post... Not sure it'd be a valid tournament, but I'd love to see a minigame sort of mode with these really hard puzzles like you're talking about. It could be a tournament to first complete, or it could be its own thing with its own rewards for participating, whatever it is I think it'd be a great addition to the game.

Gwaer
07-25-2013, 09:39 AM
Puzzle/Minigame
Starts with a set boardstate and a goal, your job is to complete it. Pretty straight forward, lots of possibilities to tie into other modes. Can have it between boss sections that can get you bonuses or penalties based on how well you do.


Pre-release tournaments
The idea here is that people would pay a fee, Gold or plat whichever was most appropriate(I'd think gold since it's pve, but plat might be okay, too),That enters them into a tournament, These tournaments start at set times depending on a time zone you select. At the beginning you people have a set amount of time, Days/week to participate in dungeons\raids that are about to be released. Each time zone has its own world first tracker, At the end of the tournament all time zones can either get their own world first achievement, or/and a number based on the time relative to everyone else it took to make world first. There could be all sorts of pre-release achievements, first to find secret areas, and whatnot.

If no one completes the dungeon in the requisite amount of time there could be a special achievement in the normal non-tournament game for taking down a dungeon that couldn't be done in the pre-release tournament.

Justinkp
07-26-2013, 12:48 AM
I remember someone mentioning a similar concept in this thread called Hexploration. I absolutely loved both yours and the other person idea. It should be damn fun.

Another possibility may be the design of a puzzles that require you to think out of the box. In Yu-Gi-Oh Nightmare Troubander, they have puzzles that requires you to kill off the opponent within 1 turn. The deck, the cards and the board state are pre-fixed. You are required to explore unique ways of using the cards to win the opponent, either through direct damage or mill or through creature dmg. It was great fun because some of the puzzles were really hard.

In fact, such a puzzle competition will be truly a World First cos everyone starts with the same deck and same cards.

Hmm, I posted a lot in the hexploration thread, that was probably one of my favorite threads ever and I was sad to see it disappear without nearly the attention I think it should have got (it does annoy me when the arguing goes on and on and threads like this one get little attention though I understand it). I was just about to say I didn't remember the puzzle mode but now I think I see what you mean. I hadn't connected them thinking of the OP's post in hexploration more about an investigation type game even using specialized cards which is way more ambitious than what I was imagining here but really its just a matter of degree. So maybe something like a simple puzzle game will help pave the way to the more complicated game types in the hexploration thread. Good job on seeing the connection.

I keep trying to think of something worth adding to that thread since I think the more people who see it the better. I wish there were more threads like that one and this one that encourage people to come up with ideas. Some of the ideas I threw out in the other thread were a bit crazy and even with luck wouldn't be seen for a couple years but who knows what ideas we have in these threads a dev may see and be inspired by even if they don't implement the exact idea. So I'd encourage people to throw out ideas that may seem a bit "out there" because you never know. I'd also suggest people look at the hexploration thread which is like this thread's cousin that got locked up in a mental institution ;) (but don't ignore this thread which has ideas much more likely to be implemented!)

Edit: I also like your puzzle suggestions-I'm not familiar with Yu-Gi-Oh but it reminds me of the magic puzzles that used to be in duellist magazine when I briefly was in to magic 20 years ago (does anyone know if these puzzles are online anywhere?). I wasn't very good and these puzzles were IMPOSSIBLE for me (they were actually designed by Mark Rosewater, the current head of magic design) though on their face they seemed like they should be so easy. Many of them also had you try to figure out a one turn kill but I think they had other objectives as well. These would be great for people learning the game. I guess they fall under my puzzle idea though they're a bit different than what I was thinking.

Atomzed
07-26-2013, 01:09 AM
Edit: I also like your puzzle suggestions-I'm not familiar with Yu-Gi-Oh but it reminds me of the magic puzzles that used to be in duellist magazine when I briefly was in to magic 20 years ago (does anyone know if these puzzles are online anywhere?). I wasn't very good and these puzzles were IMPOSSIBLE for me (they were actually designed by Mark Rosewater, the current head of magic design) though on their face they seemed like they should be so easy. Many of them also had you try to figure out a one turn kill but I think they had other objectives as well. These would be great for people learning the game. I guess they fall under my puzzle idea though they're a bit different than what I was thinking.

Yeah, I think there are also puzzles in Duel of the Planewalker. IIRC, there is usually only 1 right solution, and you have to do it in th exact sequence. There are times I spend days thinking through the Yu-Gi-oh puzzle because the solutions were so out-of-the-box. There's a great sense of achievement when I complete all the puzzles, and I learnt more about the game.

Justinkp
07-26-2013, 01:29 AM
Yeah, I think there are also puzzles in Duel of the Planewalker. IIRC, there is usually only 1 right solution, and you have to do it in th exact sequence. There are times I spend days thinking through the Yu-Gi-oh puzzle because the solutions were so out-of-the-box. There's a great sense of achievement when I complete all the puzzles, and I learnt more about the game.

I'm not surprised they use the puzzles in some of their magic games since they're a great tool for learning the intricacies of the game. I'd link to a column by Mark Rosewater about making them if I could find it easily (he writes great columns, I've been reading a ton about magic etc. both for Hex and since my store is going to start selling magic cards and running events which is a bit nerve wracking as I feel like there's an absolutely enormous amount I should learn) it was quite intetesting-there was supposed to be only one solution, though I think early on a second one would slip by him. He'd design the puzzles from the win state backwards, usually with several steps you had to get to in order to solve it. I remember being a pretty young kid thinking I was great at magic (I was terrible) staring at those puzzles until I'd get too frustrated and quit. I may have solved one (an intentionally easy one) but in general I didn't get much of that feeling of achievement :) And I'm usually pretty good at most logic puzzles-I'd like to see how well I'd do now but it would probably be depressing.

I'm surprised I didn't think of these types of puzzles for this thread as I think they'd be perfect and they've even come to mind a couple times over the last few weeks. I wonder how hard they are to create for some of the better players on these forums-just a feature where you could create your own puzzles would be fun. It'd also be helpful for the dream I have for starting a "Hex University" which I'll eventually start a thread for when I have it as sorted out as possible.

MercTroop
07-26-2013, 03:10 PM
Reposted here because it was requested.

They could have time attack/high score leader boards with either any thing goes in a deck, or limited deck mode. In the limited deck mode they could give players a certain amount of cards to choose from, then they have to build a deck with those cards and beat the challenge. Then people would have no reason to complain, people with exclusive cards and perks can use them on the any thing goes mode. People who want a more even playing field will have the ability to play on one.

Marathon mode could be a test to see how long players can last against a string of challenges that increase in difficulty. This being a TCG I could see a mode like this requiring the player to survive on a deck that doesn't shuffle between rounds. Maybe allow players to return a few cards from their grave yard or that were exiled back into their deck. Just like time attack/high score modes it could have a any thing go mode or a restricted deck mode.

Score board system could even be further broken down from over all top players, to top players using a certain class. Assuming we will have in game profile sheets, it would be a good place to put achievements like this. Like a little trophy until some one else beats your score and takes it away.

I could see PvE tournaments held with these three game modes. Run the tournament for a few days, allow each player a limited amount of chances to retry competing in the challenge. Or maybe don't allow players any retry chances.

Allowing people to compete in teams can open up other game play modes.

There could be a challenge mode where teams start together then half way through the challenge they are forced to fight on their own. Players have to meet each other again at the end of the challenge to take down a final boss.

We could get a mode where one player on the team is given a premade deck that follows a theme. Other players on the team have to protect the player with the premade deck until a win condition is met. An example could be a premade deck that follows the theme of elf refugee's. Deck could consist of a card called elf refugee, that's 0,1 with different effects the more of them you have. Like having five on the field lets you give another player a life, or seven could let you choose an allied card to gain stat boost. With a few magic spells that continue to follow the theme, like a spell that lets you convert one of elf refugee into a combat card of some kind.

Other team mates have to protect the person. Win condition could be summoning twenty elf refugee's, or maybe when enough elf refugee's are gathered they summon a big epic creature.

Or a mode where players start off low on health and the enemy has troop or troops on the field already. Players have to fight their way back from defeat.

In another thread I talked about how Pvp could be tied into player driven story. Read if you want http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=23139&page=3

What I talked about there could be tied into competitive PvE. Where lets say a Coyotle player wins a tournament, taking a region from the underworld faction. A PvE tournament could be held a few days later where maybe the theme is Coyotle took a crypt from the Necrotic. Story could be with necrotic army shattered in that region fierce carrion animals attack while they retreat. Then you could have a PVE tournament where players time attack, or marathon mode a carrion animal theme deck. End results has the players names posted in region description. Like person who wins the time attack could get a description in region like, player 1 swiftly dealt with carrion threat before it even became a threat on west side of the crypts. For marathon mode it could be, on the east side of the crypts player 2 held back a large carrion threat for as long as they could before they were forced to retreat. Their actions saved hundreds of necrotic lives. Then post their scores under their names.

Then it could go further like have regions that only PvE tournaments can unlock.

Gwaer
07-26-2013, 05:03 PM
Shardvark over on the utopian chaos forums had a suggestion for a massive multiplayer kind of mode that wouldn't take too much to get working I'd think, and doesn't require inventing crazy new massive multiplayer systems but could be an interesting large scale encounter if not a tournament in practice.

here's his suggestion:
"Wouldn't it be spectacular though to have a battle with say 25 players defending a bridge vs. 100 AI opponents. Each game could be individual, yet sway the overall outcome. You could even periodically take 3 of those players randomly and lock them in with a mini-boss.


That gives you the epic scale without all the waiting."

Basically a whole bunch of people fighting a bunch of 1 on 1 fights, randomly a number of those people are brought into a raid-like encounter. Could have people driving towards different goals, could even have some limited pvp. There can be special raid encounters that if beaten in certain ways could influence how everyone is fighting.

majin
07-26-2013, 11:40 PM
i love this last one and it can be extended to a map where different possible entrances needs to be defended by different people and like what gwaer said, it's just like extending a mechanic that probably exist on the dungeons or raids

Gorgol
07-27-2013, 10:13 AM
Shardvark over on the utopian chaos forums had a suggestion for a massive multiplayer kind of mode that wouldn't take too much to get working I'd think, and doesn't require inventing crazy new massive multiplayer systems but could be an interesting large scale encounter if not a tournament in practice.

here's his suggestion:
"Wouldn't it be spectacular though to have a battle with say 25 players defending a bridge vs. 100 AI opponents. Each game could be individual, yet sway the overall outcome. You could even periodically take 3 of those players randomly and lock them in with a mini-boss.


That gives you the epic scale without all the waiting."

Basically a whole bunch of people fighting a bunch of 1 on 1 fights, randomly a number of those people are brought into a raid-like encounter. Could have people driving towards different goals, could even have some limited pvp. There can be special raid encounters that if beaten in certain ways could influence how everyone is fighting.
Could this also be added as something that could be guild tracked also for the PVE guilds/pve side of guilds? Could this also be turned into a "survival" thing, where its "endless"? Maybe on a smaller scale to do "endless" mode. This idea seems to be scalable though to any number of competitors vs any number of total potential enemies. They could have super events like this too for special occassions. Maybe like everyone needs to beat back some global enemy, and based on how well the entire community does certain things happen.

Gwaer
07-31-2013, 03:39 PM
Hitchslap88 commented further on this;

"Yeah, this idea really has me interested. I thought, why not make it a pvp mode? We were talking about how the game needs to earn its "mmo" title; this may be a way.

Say there were a mode called "Ardent vs Underworld". At the start you choose a champion and the color/s it will have access to. You then receive a certain number of booster packs filled with cards of those colors alone and given five minutes or so to assemble a deck of 30 or 40 cards.

Then, you and 19 other compatriots play 7-8 minute/20 health games against 20 players representing the opposing faction. Each phase of each player's turn will be on a relatively short timer, emphasizing speed. First game is standard, second game gives the victors (the faction with %50+ wins from the first round) an additional card in hand at the start of the next game (representing a push), third game gives the other faction the additional card (representing a rally), and fourth game returns to standard. 1 minute between rounds to modify your deck.

Also, if a certain member of your team acheives a great feat, such as 20-0 their opponent, gaining a certain amount of life, etc., the team receives a token with that player's name on it at the end of the session, redeemable for e.g. an additional pack, currency, or a pve equipment. For example, if Gwaer puts a mill deck together and wins that way, since this is an unusual and difficult method of winning, everyone from his faction would receive "Gwaer's Millstone". Obviously, the better your faction performs, the more of these tokens you'd accumulate. AI pits winners vs winners, losers vs losers, and at the end you receive rewards based upon individual performance with a bonus if you were a member of the victorious faction."

It had my name as an example, so it belongs in my thread obviously. =)

Yoss
07-31-2013, 03:45 PM
Mind updating the OP? There have been lots of ideas in the 16 days since last edit.

hitchslap88
08-01-2013, 03:43 PM
How did I miss this thread before? So many ideas... How cool would it be if Hex ended up actually using some of them?

Gwaer
08-06-2013, 12:17 PM
Glad you found the thread hitchslap! I apologize for stealing your idea.