PDA

View Full Version : Cheap "booster box" style pricing



Kovaks
07-14-2013, 11:35 AM
I've enjoyed magic the gathering for many years. When mtg online was released, I was initially excited, until I realized that booster packs were priced at retail prices. For years, I'd saved money on mtg by purchasing booster boxes (~2.40 vs 3.99 retail) and sharing packs from those boxes with friends, and I wasn't willing to throw $4 a pack at virtual cards. I ended up playing pauper for a while, and I enjoyed it, but I'd love to play at all levels with Hex. So far, I like the pricing model for hex a lot more. However, I'd love to see a discounted booster box option, where the price of an incoming or outgoing set is lowered to accommodate bulk purchases, even if it was only for a limited window of time. I've seen it discussed that Cryptozoic could reduce the price of packs by reducing the price of bulk platinum, which would be ok, and could work, depending on the size of the discount, but I'd like the option to purchase a large number of packs for future sets, and for the pricing of those boosters to fall somewhere close to the middle of the kickstarter price and retail (~1.30-1.40?). I hope that, by purchasing in bulk, this wouldn't undermine Cryptozoic's business model. Any thoughts on this or has this been mentioned as an option in the future?

Kovaks

ZeroCool
07-14-2013, 11:38 AM
Sign up for the VIP program, or only buy boosters from the AH...or buy just the cards you want/need.

Kroan
07-14-2013, 11:44 AM
It was announced in the stream yesterday that they are working out a whole plan about the whole econmic's. Surely the research will also consider this option :) Whether it will happen, I'm not sure. I doubt it to be honest, since this will basically lower the average price even more on the AH.

Xintia
07-14-2013, 11:46 AM
If CZE was charging $4 a pack to start with... well, I wouldn't be playing HEX. :p But at that price point I would definitely see an argument for a "bulk discount" price. With packs starting at $2, and the potential for even cheaper packs through the AH, I don't think such a thing is necessary for HEX.

Kovaks
07-14-2013, 11:55 AM
The VIP program is great, but limiting it to 4 packs doesn't really approach the size and quantity of a booster pack. I'm sitting on 150 $0.80 booster packs, and, while it's difficult to imagine a price like this again, I'd love to purchase a large number of packs from each expansion, rip those open (hopefully in limited tournaments), and then trade/purchase cards that didn't come in my boosters. If I invest $100 per expansion and can get 2 booster boxes worth of cards vs the one that I could purchase for mtg, I'd be hooked, especially since the Hex mechanics are so fascinating. I know they're trying to balance collectability and profitability, but I also know they're thinking of ways to catch people who didn't like the pricing scheme of mtg. As an aside, I'd personally like to see the elimination of legendary cards, but who am I kidding? That ship has sailed (and has really hurt the price of normal rares, I might add).

ossuary
07-14-2013, 12:12 PM
Already been discussed, not necessary. The boosters are cheap enough already. Putting in a bulk discount program just makes people feel obligated to spend at the higher price point, which often actually makes them feel cheated any time they DON'T buy the larger quantity.

Kovaks
07-14-2013, 12:27 PM
Why not just buy in bulk then a person won't feel cheated? Or, if a person can't afford bulk pricing, at least individual pack prices would drop in the auction house. The game becomes more affordable for all.

Banquetto
07-14-2013, 02:16 PM
I think the real issue is that with a super simple and convenient marketplace, people would buy these boxes for the $1.30-$1.40 you suggest.. then sell the boosters on the marketplace for, say, $1.40-$1.50.

There would be no reason for the average player who only wanted a few packs to ever buy directly from CZE.

Effectively, a plan like this would be dropping the price of virtually all booster sales by a third.

Kovaks
07-14-2013, 02:43 PM
I see your point, Banquetto. But the average price on the market place will still be slightly below retail, since a person purchasing these packs won't have a chance at a primal pack. I've seen some speculation that boosters will go for the prices I've mentioned, but I'm guessing it's going to be more like $1.80. I definitely want cryptozoic to make money, but I'd like to get a large percentage of the cards without having to refinance my house :). But it's possible that, since a lot of mtg complete sets early on sell for ~$120, maybe a person will be able to buy a complete set for $60. That would be great.

Badger
07-14-2013, 02:51 PM
I would prefer no bulk discount. There is no real need.

Hibbert
07-14-2013, 03:03 PM
The concept of a booster box could be adapted to Hex. Since CZE sells all packs, selling below MSRP doesn't make much sense(outside of the VIP program). CZE set the price, and there's no middleman like in paper card sales. There could still be some other incentives to buy a whole booster box at a time.

One idea would be to guarantee a certain number of legendary cards/treasure chests per box. If primals are as common as 1/36, then I could see even guaranteeing a primal pack per box. This would mimic how other various collectible cards work. Since there are virtual print runs, it wouldn't affect overall rarity at all. The single packs sold would have the same chance at legendaries/primals as the booster boxes, but since you would be picking packs at random from a larger pool, you might see "streakier" luck.

Another easy idea is to copy MTG's "Buy-a-box" promo. If you buy a booster box at certain stores, they give you a special AA promo card. In Hex this might need to be limited to a certain number, maybe even on a pre-order basis, not every box sold over the course of the printing. Otherwise the price of a pack would always be ($72-Price of promo card)/36, assuming 36 packs per box.

A few incentives like this might make me want to buy a box of 36 boosters for $72, rather than just buying as needed for drafting/sealed. At the same time, it wouldn't punish anyone who wanted to just buy single packs.

Mr.Funsocks
07-14-2013, 03:09 PM
Having a bulk discount is a bad idea. Having a bulk bonus, that's relatively minor (bonus treasure chest or bonus merc, but NOT more cards) on a booster box wouldn't be a terrible idea.

ossuary
07-14-2013, 03:16 PM
I could get behind that idea. Give a bonus for ordering a whole box at a time, without lowering the price. That would be fine. A couple extra random treasure chests, or a higher chance for a primal (not sure what I feel about a guaranteed primal, would depend on their actual percent chance in the wild). Something like that could be a good incentive to buy more, without actually costing CZE much.

Mr.Funsocks
07-14-2013, 03:17 PM
Yeah, guaranteed primal is a no. They haven't revealed the stats, but my guess would be it's more like 1/100 -1/1000 chance, not 1/36.

Shivdaddy
07-14-2013, 03:25 PM
Bulk discount is a bad idea. I wish they would raise the price of boosters to $2.50.

Kovaks
07-14-2013, 03:26 PM
If primal drops were 1/1000, why would anyone buy packs from cryptozoic (unless they have no math skills)? I guess it would increase the price of secondary market packs, though.

Kovaks
07-14-2013, 03:27 PM
Shivdaddy, why would you want the base price of boosters to be increased?

Shadowelf
07-14-2013, 03:33 PM
Yeah, guaranteed primal is a no. They haven't revealed the stats, but my guess would be it's more like 1/100 -1/1000 chance, not 1/36.

1/1000 would have been too low and would drive the price of primals to absurd levels; 1/100 i can get behind


Bulk discount is a bad idea. I wish they would raise the price of boosters to $2.50.

I can see why bulk discount might be not be ideal, but why raise the price of boosters?

Gorgol
07-14-2013, 03:35 PM
Why would the price of getting a primal pack skyrocket if the chance to get it is super low (1/1000). Wouldn't the price still be tied to what could possibly be in the pack rather than rarity of chance to receive pack?

Mr.Funsocks
07-14-2013, 03:42 PM
1/1000 would have been too low and would drive the price of primals to absurd levels; 1/100 i can get behind

That's why I gave a range :-P

But a 15-card all-rare/legendary pack is not gonna spawn at more than a 1% rate, that's for sure.

Shadowelf
07-14-2013, 03:49 PM
Why would the price of getting a primal pack skyrocket if the chance to get it is super low (1/1000). Wouldn't the price still be tied to what could possibly be in the pack rather than rarity of chance to receive pack?

Because of a bunch of rares/legendaries and a legendary treasure chest ?

Dralon
07-14-2013, 07:49 PM
I am going to have to search through the interviews, but I am pretty sure that Cory mentioned in one that they did want to mirror the booster box style, at least as far as card distribution goes. The idea being if you buy a certain amount of packs ( a box amount, whatever that ends up being, 24, 36, ?) that there would be a good mix of types of cards and Rares (not a chance to get 10 of one rare out of those packs, or 50 of one common and 2 of another kind of thing). Whether they will price those "bulks" differently has not been discussed.

I would definitely be in favor of a discount , but would not have to be much. Perhaps just enough to distinguish that you are buying a "box" amount of boosters.

Edit: The 34 minute mark of This interview he talks about the distribution. Again, not sure if they will mimic the pricing of real booster boxes (which they certainly do not have to due to the lack of real life product costs) and he talks more specifically about making sure the 'pack' is balanced, but that should extend out to feeling if you buy say "10" packs that they should still feel balanced, like opening real TCG packs. FYI anyway for what its worth.

http://www.twitch.tv/weekingeek/b/413067790

ossuary
07-14-2013, 08:14 PM
That was specifically referring to the "print run" style distribution of cards, as opposed to each pack being completely random and generated on the fly, ala Duel of Champions. To provide a more even distribution of cards than pure randomness would get you.

It had nothing to do with prices.

Dralon
07-14-2013, 08:18 PM
That was specifically referring to the "print run" style distribution of cards, as opposed to each pack being completely random and generated on the fly, ala Duel of Champions. To provide a more even distribution of cards than pure randomness would get you.

It had nothing to do with prices.

As I stated :) But the fact that they are at least thinking about that factor, could mean they are putting thought to bulk purchases.

hex_colin
07-14-2013, 09:09 PM
I guess it depends on how they decide which boosters you get. If you buy X boosters and get X randomly from all of the boosters that have been generated and exist in inventory, then it might make sense to have a mechanism to buy a "box".

If I buy X boosters and get X that were generated sequentially (and therefore come from the same box or a series of sequentially generated boxes), then I can buy 40, or 50, or 60 and basically get a "box" anyway.

I'd definitely like for there to be a mechanism to buy lots of boosters at once with the fewest clicks possible ;) Don't really care if that results in a discount or not.

Xintia
07-14-2013, 09:39 PM
I think the idea posed by Mr. Funsocks might be the best approach... not a discount per pack, but a "bonus item" tossed in for buying X amount of packs at once. Something like an extra treasure chest, or PvE merc, or card sleeves could be a suitable bonus for people who want to buy in bulk, but won't likely have an adverse effect on the price of packs as a whole or overly incentivize bulk purchasing to make it feel "mandatory" in order to get a good deal.

majin
07-15-2013, 07:39 AM
i support the idea of booster boxes as I might be interested in getting them too

boosters might be cheap on the AH but they have 0% chance to be primal unlike boosters on the box (it will be idiotic if boosters on the box don't have any chance to be primal)

i don't mind if it will be discounted or if will have free stuffs like bonus tourney tickets, X number of random treasure chests but I am hoping they implement this feature

Lafoote
07-15-2013, 06:37 PM
As I will probably buy a significant number of packs over the life of the game, I am greatly in favor of a box promotion. Such a promotion could include discounts and/or promo items. It may serve as a helpful sales tool, and its a swanky way to reward the people who are fueling the game. The concern over the packs being resold could be easily alleviated by making the packs themselves no sale/trade. There is however no obligation to have such a promotion, and I'm confident they will make a decision they believe will best suit the game long term.

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 06:43 PM
Having packs no trade no sale should never be a thing.

MastrFett
07-15-2013, 06:59 PM
Since you are going to be buying platinum, and not packs directly, have they said anything about doing deals for bonus diamonds when you buy larger amounts? Like bonus riot points in League of Legends. I don't know how I would feel about this, but I definitely see it as something they might do.

Gwaer
07-15-2013, 07:06 PM
Haven't seen anything like that mentioned.

funktion
07-15-2013, 07:30 PM
I really hope they avoid doing this kind of stuff. It just feels like they are undermining the economy if they have all these pseudo-discounted-prices whether it's for plat or for packs.

Packs ARE going to sell significantly cheaper on the secondary market, if you want to get them at a discounted rate, then do it that way. Having discounts directly from the store on "booster box quantity" just devalues the price of a booster as that will become the max price a booster is worth. Doing so also undercuts the value of any tournament prizes, especially draft.

Kietay
07-15-2013, 09:05 PM
I concur Funktion! Also, VIP prolly needs to be changed.

Gorgol
07-15-2013, 09:07 PM
I concur Funktion! Also, VIP prolly needs to be changed.
I agree with Funktion, but disagree that VIP needs to be changed.

Chadatog
07-15-2013, 09:37 PM
I would also like to add that I like the idea of buying a box with no price reduction and a bonus attached (sleeves/chests)

With the packs being created with a virtual print run would take some of the chance out of possibly getting a legendary card. I remember the whole reason for buying boxes for the Star Wars TCG was to have a better chance of getting high value rares. I cracked 2 boxes and came away with 2 Vader/Tarkin, Leia, Han, Luke, and C3PO.

jgsugden
07-15-2013, 09:55 PM
Stop thinking short term.

The single most important thing right now is that Hex thrives. It is much more important that the game thrive than that I get a great deal on boosters.

Why? Because the day Hex dies is the day we lose everything we've spent. I don't want that day to come 2 years from now. I want it to be decades from now.

I'd much rather they determine the optimal price for the success of the game and see them charge that price (whether that is $1 a booster, $2 a booster, $4 a booster or $6 a booster) than try to give us a good deal that makes all the fans happy but drives the game into the ground (like so many brick and mortar game stores drive themselves into the ground trying to make customers happy).

Lafoote
07-15-2013, 11:01 PM
Stop thinking short term.

The single most important thing right now is that Hex thrives. It is much more important that the game thrive than that I get a great deal on boosters.

Why? Because the day Hex dies is the day we lose everything we've spent. I don't want that day to come 2 years from now. I want it to be decades from now.

I'd much rather they determine the optimal price for the success of the game and see them charge that price (whether that is $1 a booster, $2 a booster, $4 a booster or $6 a booster) than try to give us a good deal that makes all the fans happy but drives the game into the ground (like so many brick and mortar game stores drive themselves into the ground trying to make customers happy).

I think the KS campaign adequately demonstrates the power of sales incentives. While nothing on par with the KS is in our future, having players throw heaps of cash at CZE up front for something like a few extra packs, a merc, a bonus primal, or whatever is a win/win.

Again, I think they will perform due diligence and only do such a promotion if it makes sense.

Thunderbringer
07-16-2013, 12:01 AM
Hmm booster boxes? Well boosters themselves arent that expensive anyway. Even if you are not a VIP.

But again guys Chill!!! CZ seems to be very serious about their product. They got a proffessor to analyze the economy. So lets wait. If they see fit to provide us with booster boxes then they will give them to us, if not its just not going to happen. In any case i trust them so whatever they decide im with them. As it was mentioned above "we need the game to thrive" Let them do their work and decide whats best.

Kovaks
07-16-2013, 03:33 AM
Stop thinking short term.

I'd much rather they determine the optimal price for the success of the game and see them charge that price (whether that is $1 a booster, $2 a booster, $4 a booster or $6 a booster) than try to give us a good deal that makes all the fans happy but drives the game into the ground (like so many brick and mortar game stores drive themselves into the ground trying to make customers happy).

You're really passionate about the game, which is great! I am as well -- I've been following it's development since the beginning and would love to perpetually support Cryptozoic! However, one of the things that attracted me in the first place was the low price point. At $2 a pack, I can play a lot of games and have a good time without feeling like I'm giving away my children's college fund. If the game ever shifted to $4 or $6 a pack, I'd cash out and move on to something new (as, I think, would a lot of players with my mindset -- I love the mechanics behind games, particularly tcgs, but rarely become so married to one that I can't move on to the next thing). However, I love a good deal. To that point, there have been several great suggestions on this post. I especially like the idea of using an incentive (such as an exclusive mercenary or AA card) for bulk purchases. And I like the idea of the content of boxes based on more on print runs than completely random. I do agree with Lafoote's post, however --personally, a sale would be more likely to convince me to purchase a large number of packs than any other strategy.

On a somewhat similar topic, why all the obsession with collectability? I own lots of collectable magic cards (force of will, lion's eye diamond, dual lands, jace, etc.) and I've still spent WAY more on acquiring these cards than the cards are actually worth. For me, it makes more sense to have the game be as accessible as possible to the largest number of people. There's a HUGE argument to be made for profitability (Cryptozoic should thrive under whatever pricing scheme they choose), but I think most collectors will never make money off of this game, so why try to 'price-out' people? Most will be playing just for the fun of it!

theophanya
07-16-2013, 08:13 AM
A promised distribution of legendaries is the only reason I have been buying booster boxes so far and I believe the same holds true for HEX.

Professor_Greed
07-16-2013, 10:21 AM
I'm all for some sort of incentive for purchasing a larger quantity of boosters. Just like others have suggested. There are so many ways things they could package along with a bunch of packs. Sleeves, art, avatar, etc. I'm all for saving a penny here or there, but we've got a decent low price point already.

hex_colin
07-16-2013, 11:02 AM
I'm all for some sort of incentive for purchasing a larger quantity of boosters. Just like others have suggested. There are so many ways things they could package along with a bunch of packs. Sleeves, art, avatar, etc. I'm all for saving a penny here or there, but we've got a decent low price point already.

A new merc: "<SomeAppropriateName>, the Conspicuous Consumer"! Level 20 Passive Power: Pay X gold and disregard all damage sustained this turn. "Who says money can't buy everything?" ;)

Vorpal
07-16-2013, 11:06 AM
Discounts for booster boxes only really make sense in a B&M store constrained by the physical realities of the medium where resale is not trivially easy.

For a digital product that players will turn around and resell on the AH, I don't think it makes any sense.

GreyGriffin
07-16-2013, 11:44 AM
I also believe the price point for boosters is in a decent place. Two dollars is small enough to impulse buy and makes spending ten dollars a real value. Making booster boxes and bulk discounts may have the unintentional result of alienating players who feel they need to be able to afford boxes to compete, especially if the discount is substantial.

Furthermore, allowing only pack purchases can make an extremely streamlined store experience with only a handful of active SKUs (the currently in-print sets)

However, people love being rewarded for spending their money, so why not just implement a punch card type system? Buy ten packs, get a random chest. You don't have to buy them all at once, and if you want to buy 100 packs, you get 10 chests. It is simple, encourages players with low disposable incomes/investments to purchase a targeted amount (Just one more pack until this chest...) and gives handy increments for high spending players to buy into, giving them immediate rewards for their larger purchases (Might as well buy 40 packs instead of 36 woo chests!).

ConnorJS
07-16-2013, 02:06 PM
The current system works absolutely fine, the reason they don't do 'booster boxes' is because the game is digital. So there really is no need, the AH allows you to buy/sell anything for any price so the possibilities are endless... It would put people off knowing that people are getting boosters cheaper than them and would make it pointless buying them from CZE over the AH.

Kovaks
07-16-2013, 02:14 PM
The current system works absolutely fine, the reason they don't do 'booster boxes' is because the game is digital. So there really is no need, the AH allows you to buy/sell anything for any price so the possibilities are endless... It would put people off knowing that people are getting boosters cheaper than them and would make it pointless buying them from CZE over the AH.

I'm still confused about why people would be concerned about having the potential to get a good deal on boosters. Seems like it's a win-win for customers, and it gives customers flexibility (buy a bunch at once at a discount if you'd like, buy them a little cheaper on the auction house, or buy them individually and get a chance at a primal).

ConnorJS
07-16-2013, 02:19 PM
I'm still confused about why people would be concerned about having the potential to get a good deal on boosters. Seems like it's a win-win for customers, and it gives customers flexibility (buy a bunch at once at a discount if you'd like, buy them a little cheaper on the auction house, or buy them individually and get a chance at a primal).

No, it's not a win-win. It drives the average booster price down. It means that nobody will bother buying singular boosters or drafts with plat. You have to understand that the price of boosters is already incredibly low, and booster boxes would create disparity in the market, leading to customers such as yourself being very happy but the majority who would buy less boosters being displeased. There is no need for booster boxes, at all. There are no physical restrains causing such products to be necessary, an option that would make more sense is a 'jumbo' booster pack that would say contain 25 cards and 2 chests costing $3. Just an idea.

funktion
07-16-2013, 02:29 PM
The current system works absolutely fine, the reason they don't do 'booster boxes' is because the game is digital. So there really is no need, the AH allows you to buy/sell anything for any price so the possibilities are endless...

This so many times over. If you want discounted boosters... buy them on the AH it's that simple.

Gwaer
07-16-2013, 02:51 PM
The current system works absolutely fine, the reason they don't do 'booster boxes' is because the game is digital. So there really is no need, the AH allows you to buy/sell anything for any price so the possibilities are endless... It would put people off knowing that people are getting boosters cheaper than them and would make it pointless buying them from CZE over the AH.
That's actually not true. They have said they're "printing cards" in sheets similar to how magic distributes their cards, so if you could buy booster boxes you're more likely to be able to buy a solid run of a sheet and increase the odds of hitting the legendaries. Se even if they don't discount the price, or reward someone for purchasing a lot of boosters at once I still hope they have the ability to purchase a box to try to do that if you like. Or I guess somehow make it when you purchase boosters in any number it comes from the same box/print run. That seems like it would be really hard to do in a situation where many many people are buying at the same time.

funktion
07-16-2013, 03:13 PM
@Gwaer -- Just because they will be simulating print runs for drafting purposes doesn't mean that packs will coordinate with "box mapping" or whatever you might call it.

I think you misunderstood the ways and reasons they are going to be putting together boosters like this. It's not so that it can simulate the rarity distribution of a box, it's so that you don't open a pack in a draft that contains multiple copies of the same card / only one color of card etc...

Hope that makes more sense.

Gwaer
07-16-2013, 03:17 PM
I don't remember them saying that they were going to going to do that for drafts at all. What you're saying is that regardless of the packs anyone puts up for the draft, they're going to artificially make them all come out of a single box? That seems less than ideal. *sigh* I'm going to have to hunt down wherever this quote came from I guess =/

Oh, no you're not saying that at all, you're talking about individual packs. I gotcha, sure. That's one reason to do it that way, but buying in a group like a box so that you could play the rarity distribution of boxes would be the largest gain, and really only gain necessary in doing it that way. I don't see why you would be against it? I still don't understand your point I think.

Captain_Obvious
07-16-2013, 03:44 PM
I don't remember them saying that they were going to going to do that for drafts at all. What you're saying is that regardless of the packs anyone puts up for the draft, they're going to artificially make them all come out of a single box? That seems less than ideal. *sigh* I'm going to have to hunt down wherever this quote came from I guess =/


~E3 Video talks about it~

Lafoote
07-16-2013, 04:12 PM
The current system works absolutely fine, the reason they don't do 'booster boxes' is because the game is digital. So there really is no need, the AH allows you to buy/sell anything for any price so the possibilities are endless... It would put people off knowing that people are getting boosters cheaper than them and would make it pointless buying them from CZE over the AH.

I believe they haven't announced the current system. It's still being evaluated. We just know the individual booster price is 2 bucks.

Gwaer
07-16-2013, 04:42 PM
~E3 Video talks about it~
Just watched the entire e3 cory interview, either missed it again or I have the wrong e3 video.

Chadatog
07-16-2013, 04:44 PM
I don't remember them saying that they were going to going to do that for drafts at all. What you're saying is that regardless of the packs anyone puts up for the draft, they're going to artificially make them all come out of a single box? That seems less than ideal. *sigh* I'm going to have to hunt down wherever this quote came from I guess =/

Oh, no you're not saying that at all, you're talking about individual packs. I gotcha, sure. That's one reason to do it that way, but buying in a group like a box so that you could play the rarity distribution of boxes would be the largest gain, and really only gain necessary in doing it that way. I don't see why you would be against it? I still don't understand your point I think.

Yeah Gwaer you are correct in your remembering. Cory was talking about all packs that are generated (not when they are opened for a draft) come from a system that simulates a print run.

He starts talking specifically about it after the 1:00 mark


http://youtu.be/nuIEJ65jMOQ


I think you misunderstood the ways and reasons they are going to be putting together boosters like this. It's not so that it can simulate the rarity distribution of a box, it's so that you don't open a pack in a draft that contains multiple copies of the same card / only one color of card etc...

Actually from his interview he specifically says "all of the packs in a box are different, so if you are doing drafts or whatever" as well as "it is going to feel like you are opening real TCG packs". I interpret it to mean that all packs are getting distributed like this not just draft packs (you need this kind of distribution for sealed as well) but when the packs are generated allowing bulk purchases (boxes) to give you a better chance of getting some kind of legendary than just buying packs one at a time.

Gorgol
07-16-2013, 04:57 PM
Actually from his interview he specifically says "all of the packs in a box are different, so if you are doing drafts or whatever" as well as "it is going to feel like you are opening real TCG packs". I interpret it to mean that all packs are getting distributed like this not just draft packs (you need this kind of distribution for sealed as well) but when the packs are generated allowing bulk purchases (boxes) to give you a better chance of getting some kind of legendary than just buying packs one at a time.
Yeah the way he spoke was that every generated pack comes from a virtual print run. Which means to me that its will be exactly like paper TCG distribution but in virtual form.

Shadowelf
07-16-2013, 05:08 PM
Yeah the way he spoke was that every generated pack comes from a virtual print run. Which means to me that its will be exactly like paper TCG distribution but in virtual form.

That's good to know; it will also help to track the quantities of cards in circulation and to make sure that no card will be more rare than others. Good against potential duping too (unique id +given quantity=win)

Zarien
07-16-2013, 05:35 PM
I don't really see a need for bulk discount, but I guess there could be argument for maybe selling bulk "boxes" for like $1, or $1.50 instead of $2, during like the third set maybe of the block so cze can cash in a little more on the crazy market prices people will have packs at, while making people happy so to speak. In a digital format I don't see that really happening though. Though, I did always like buying bulk boxes for the deal and fun of opening a bunch of packs, so who knows.

Skirovik
07-16-2013, 05:57 PM
However, people love being rewarded for spending their money, so why not just implement a punch card type system? Buy ten packs, get a random chest. You don't have to buy them all at once, and if you want to buy 100 packs, you get 10 chests. It is simple, encourages players with low disposable incomes/investments to purchase a targeted amount (Just one more pack until this chest...) and gives handy increments for high spending players to buy into, giving them immediate rewards for their larger purchases (Might as well buy 40 packs instead of 36 woo chests!).

I really quite like this idea. It benefits everyone. :D

ecaflip
07-16-2013, 06:35 PM
Bulk discount is a bad idea. I wish they would raise the price of boosters to $2.50.

pls leave

Kietay
07-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Any kind of discounted way of buying boosters will become the norm price. Even cheaper VIP boosters was a bad idea.

Kovaks
07-16-2013, 07:41 PM
Any kind of discounted way of buying boosters will become the norm price. Even cheaper VIP boosters was a bad idea.

Still wondering why this is a bad thing, as long as cryptozoic is making a profit.... I've been playing a lot of deck building games (Marvel legendary, thunderstone, etc) recently, and I LOVE having access to all the cards and not having to hunt for them. What's the rationale behind preventing lower prices (again, assuming Cryptozoic can make a profit at a discounted price point)?

Kietay
07-16-2013, 08:07 PM
If everyone has access to all the cards this is not a TCG. If you only enjoy playing a game with an even setting there are a lot of card games like that. If everyone has everything, collecting becomes pointless.

funktion
07-17-2013, 01:08 AM
Oh, no you're not saying that at all, you're talking about individual packs. I gotcha, sure. That's one reason to do it that way, but buying in a group like a box so that you could play the rarity distribution of boxes would be the largest gain, and really only gain necessary in doing it that way. I don't see why you would be against it? I still don't understand your point I think.

Think you got where I was coming from, sorry I was at work all day or else I'd have responded sooner but here goes nothing...

If Hex packs are mapped the same way Magic packs currently are there is a huge drawback to this...

But before I get into that, let me start off by saying that BOX MAPPING which is more or less what you've suggested in the sense of wanting rares / legendaries to be evenly distributed so that you can buy 20 and be close to the average odds of opening a specific rare amond those 20 packs should not be confused with simulating print runs within an individual pack. Before I got sidetracked, what I meant to say here as a disclaimer is that box mapping is antiquated and only necessary because of physical constraints, we are in a digital world and it's a now unnecessary evil which we won't have to deal with.

With BOX MAPPING the server needs to predetermine what is in the packs, and then maybe you are buying pack 31-51 within that box. By doing so you have the very real chance of opening the chase rare early on and then putting the rest of the remaining packs up on the auction house. A newer player (very very few MTG players understand that box mapping is a real thing) might go and buy those packs on the AH without the understanding that they all literally have junk rares in them. Furthermore what happens when you use those packs in a draft? Since you are providing the packs for your drafts rather than a brick and mortar store providing them (though there are a few stores I've seen that let you bring your own packs and have a reduced entry fee... which is SUPER SKETCHY) then with what you suggest it is very possible to know what the contents of those packs are ahead of time.

There are so many drawbacks to this; meanwhile, the positive aspect of being able to have closer to average odds of opening a specific card is more or less an imaginary thing encouraging you to buy in bulk.

Does that make sense Gwaer? I'm not sure if I really worded that right, but box mapping is definitely a thing that most people would not approve of if they understood it completely. I'm just trying to make sure you understand it, among other reasons it's why you generally don't want to buy boosters out of an already opened box. I've been to somewhat shady establishments where players NEVER opened chase cards but you'd see the owners open them with very very high frequency.

Kovaks
07-17-2013, 03:27 AM
If everyone has access to all the cards this is not a TCG. If you only enjoy playing a game with an even setting there are a lot of card games like that. If everyone has everything, collecting becomes pointless.

Ok, so how would dropping the price of boosters bought in bulk to $1.50 hurt collecting? I think what you're getting at is that, at a lower price point, more people would be able to purchase more packs, which would ultimately put more chase cards into circulation, decreasing their value? I can understand the thrill of opening a pack and finding something that's really, really rare and valuable (I've done it myself quite a few times).

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 03:34 AM
Ok, so how would dropping the price of boosters bought in bulk to $1.50 hurt collecting? I think what you're getting at is that, at a lower price point, more people would be able to purchase more packs, which would ultimately put more chase cards into circulation, decreasing their value? I can understand the thrill of opening a pack and finding something that's really, really rare and valuable (I've done it myself quite a few times).
basically. I mean why stop at $1.50, why not $1 or $0.50? The base price of a booster sets initial individual card prices, if only vaguely.

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 09:45 AM
I see where you're coming from now. Yes. I am also not for box mapping. Although there are some very neat apps that let you pull the most valuable packs out of a box, and sell the rest. I'm with you, that is bad.

I am for being able to buy a box so that you have all the potential for at least having the good legendaries in the set of boosters you bought, I am against you being able to easily guess where those good cards are in the packs that you just purchased. The individual 'boxes' need to be better randomized than boxes in magic, but you should still be able to buy bulk and not get screwed with rng ending up with all terrible packs.

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 09:47 AM
I see where you're coming from now. Yes. I am also not for box mapping. Although there are some very neat apps that let you pull the most valuable packs out of a box, and sell the rest. I'm with you, that is bad.

I am for being able to buy a box so that you have all the potential for at least having the good legendaries in the set of boosters you bought, I am against you being able to easily guess where those good cards are in the packs that you just purchased. The individual 'boxes' need to be better randomized than boxes in magic, but you should still be able to buy bulk and not get screwed with rng ending up with all terrible packs.
This is my stance also.

funktion
07-17-2013, 12:01 PM
I am for being able to buy a box so that you have all the potential for at least having the good legendaries in the set of boosters you bought, I am against you being able to easily guess where those good cards are in the packs that you just purchased. The individual 'boxes' need to be better randomized than boxes in magic, but you should still be able to buy bulk and not get screwed with rng ending up with all terrible packs.

For what it's worth, most of that is in your mind. Buying a box doesn't necessarily mean that there is a chase card in there. Although if you go to a brick and mortar and are buying packs from an already opened box you're unlikely to see one. I've had tons of times where a new set came out, I bought a single box and got two copies of a chase card meanwhile a buddy three boxes and only got one copy. Buying boxes is really no more or less likely to net you good cards than buying packs out of an unopened box is.

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 12:19 PM
For what it's worth, most of that is in your mind. Buying a box doesn't necessarily mean that there is a chase card in there. Although if you go to a brick and mortar and are buying packs from an already opened box you're unlikely to see one. I've had tons of times where a new set came out, I bought a single box and got two copies of a chase card meanwhile a buddy three boxes and only got one copy. Buying boxes is really no more or less likely to net you good cards than buying packs out of an unopened box is.
I just like the feeling of "this is a booster box" rather than the "Oh, I'm buying from an already opened booster box". Even if its all in my head. :p

Gwaer
07-17-2013, 02:07 PM
It's not actually in your head in this instance. If you buy a number of packs in sequential order you're lowering the likelihood of the same cards from the sheet repeating. So your odds of getting a wider distribution of individual cards increase. If you're just getting entirely random packs you have a random chance of them being good or bad, but if you can buy a group of sequential packs you have higher odds of getting more types of cards, which include legendaries, simply from the nature of the simulated cut sheet?

Wouldn't that be correct?

Gorgol
07-17-2013, 02:11 PM
It's not actually in your head in this instance. If you buy a number of packs in sequential order you're lowering the likelihood of the same cards from the sheet repeating. So your odds of getting a wider distribution of individual cards increase. If you're just getting entirely random packs you have a random chance of them being good or bad, but if you can buy a group of sequential packs you have higher odds of getting more types of cards, which include legendaries, simply from the nature of the simulated cut sheet?

Wouldn't that be correct?
If Cory's words on how they're "printing" the cards and doing the packs are true, yes. But as has been mentioned, box mapping is bad. If they make sure that box mapping is near impossible and still give us that nice spread of cards when buying bulk, it would be great.
They just need a ticker or a fill-in box to input how many you want to buy and then when you buy them they're "in order" as if buying a true box. Super simple to add I'd assume, since the backend with 'print run' is already planned.

But because of the way its just packs, even buying 36 at once doesn't mean you would get it from "one box" but it could be last 18 of box 1 and 1st 18 of box 2, if that makes sense.

Hibbert
07-17-2013, 02:37 PM
It's entirely possible to do some randomness fixing on a box(a guaranteed minimum of legendaries, no more than X repeated rares) without running into the problems of box mapping in MTG(if rares X, Y, and Z are present, then a particular chase mythic rare is definitely there too). It's just harder to do that when you are mechanically sorting booster packs, rather than manipulating bits of data.