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chansen005
07-21-2013, 01:33 AM
Based on the Information we have so far about the game, I have come to the conclusion that this deck;

http://www.hex-datamine.com/deck.php?did=666

4 pack raptors (Draw a card)
4 Master Beast Rider (draw a card socket)
4 Glimmer Glen Witch
4 Sensei of the Milky Eye (draw a card)
4 Wild Root Dancer
4 Wild Growth
4 Secret Lab
4 Oracle Song
4 Dream Dance
14 Wild source
10 Sapphire Source

Mixed with the Warrior champion going 100% defence is the way to go. Basically, you just keep drawing out your deck, with tons of card draw, until eventually all that is left is pack raptors, so if you have all 24 lands out, you play 24 pack raptors each turn. Same as every video game, the premise is.... dont die... and you will win.

I want whoever is reading this to tell me why they think this deck will fail, or, what cards they feel will excelerate the draw your deck out idea

Chiany
07-21-2013, 01:56 AM
Ultimate deck without Lotus?

Edit: and this topic is in the wrong part of the forum.

Kietay
07-21-2013, 02:00 AM
The deck wont fail. But the mistake you have made is trying to win in PvE instead of trying to win fast. Winning against the AI will be easy in any setting (despite what some turtles say, maybe if PvE is all you have ever done it might seem hard to you). The real objective of PvE will be creating the fastest winning deck, being able to farm the fastest.

Not that I think this deck is slow or anything! It will probably be pretty fast as well, but each raid is likely going to have a different crazy win condition which is fun because that means the most efficient (read fastest) deck to beat them will likely vary between raids. Just remember, you are going for the fast win! Not the eventual win.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 02:20 AM
It won't fail, but it's definitely not the best deck. Pretty much, as Chiany said, the best deck will contain Spectral Lotus at a minimum. Keep working on it though.

Gridian
07-21-2013, 04:11 AM
The best part about HEX is the mercs, gems and equipment. Something tells me that there will never be *one* best deck, but always several.

That being said, yours surely looks formidable and I don't envy the A.I. that's gonna face you :D

Shadowelf
07-21-2013, 04:21 AM
Love it; green (wild) is my favorite mtg color, glad you could work a nice deck with it. Just like others have said finding spots in there for lotus would have been nice

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 08:22 AM
I will say that 4 of your cards do feature in what I believe to be the current best PvE deck, so you're on the right track.

Chiany
07-21-2013, 08:28 AM
I will say that 4 of your cards do feature in what I believe to be the current best PvE deck, so you're on the right track.

Jeez, I wonder which card that is :rolleyes:

Mr.Funsocks
07-21-2013, 08:28 AM
Best deck vs what? 'cause I'm sure they'll make some encounters where, say, creatures are ineffective.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 08:50 AM
Jeez, I wonder which card that is :rolleyes:
I mean, 4 individual cards (of which there are full playsets). ;-) So 16/~36 (that is, roughly 36 non-source cards).

snarvid
07-21-2013, 08:53 AM
Yeh, PVE equipment gives us an idea that PVE encounters will be crazy. Looking at Extinction's three turns of no creatures gives you a sense if this.

It is a strong long term Dps deck for raiding, but its inability to interact with an opponents board makes it a very strong one-note.

Barkam
07-21-2013, 09:10 AM
The only card in there that is part of the best pve deck is sapphire. Raptor is still a strong card but no where near close to the strongest available PvE deck.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 09:17 AM
The only card in there that is part of the best pve deck is sapphire. Raptor is still a strong card but no where near close to the strongest available PvE deck.
Actually, I disagree. Pack Raptor is a 1 cost troop that gets bigger, and draws a card. That's insanely powerful.

Of course, if/when sapphire gets 1 mana card draw spells, even if it's just a cantrip, it will probably be a different story, but right now simply because it's a 1 mana 'draw spell' Pack Raptor is worthy.

ossuary
07-21-2013, 11:10 AM
Even aside from the things others have mentioned, your deck should at the bare minimum include Chlorophylia, to get more resources earlier, and Eye of Creation, to dump out multiple raptors at once as soon as you've ramped enough mana. You have lots of draws, but not a lot of SPEED.

chansen005
07-21-2013, 11:43 AM
nah, eye of creation = i spend 3 mana, plus X, draw X cards and play them. where alternatively, i could play 1 mana for each pack raptor i draw and have 3 more in play each turn. i wanted, to add more eye, Chlorophylia, and hex engine, but the mana required to get them off the ground, ( most your turn 3 and 4s mana) and the 3 green threshhold messes me up more often then not.

In response to extinction, and the fact that i cant mess with my oponents board... whatever, i have swiftstriking packraptors and all i need to do is sit until i can 1 shot my opponent, and if they cast judgement or extinction, next turn i put hella more pack raptors in play.

the only 2 main things that will kill me are. getting super nuked before i get enough troops out. Or, someone plays zombie plague and hits all the pack raptors before i can multiply them

Chiany
07-21-2013, 11:51 AM
the only 2 main things that will kill me are. getting super nuked before i get enough troops out. Or, someone plays zombie plague and hits all the pack raptors before i can multiply them

You forget that the AI will play cards unavailable to us, so who knows what you'll be up against.

Shadowelf
07-21-2013, 12:02 PM
You forget that the AI will play cards unavailable to us, so who knows what you'll be up against.

Not to mention unique dungeon mechanics like the boss that needs to be hit specific times to take down no matter the damage, or other pve strategies that may require specific tactics like AoE or burst dmg. In a few words i don't think there will be a deck to rule them all in pve. You will have to adjust your deck per dungeon and depending on what they meant with deck tweaking, per encounter

Aradon
07-21-2013, 12:02 PM
I suspect the best deck will be a combo deck featuring the Archmage and Dream Dance, especially for raids and other instances that require versatility. Two dream dances with the right piece of equipment lets you cast dream dance infinite times, and Wrenlocke turns that into 'draw your deck and cast any spell for free.' That, in my opinion, is going to turn out to be the dominant PvE deck for tough encounters (at least, until we see something else even more impressive spoiled).

However, for your deck, I'd recommend what I saw someone else suggest in another thread: Go with Ebonrock as your champion. With Technical Genius out, all your pack raptors are free, since they're now artifacts. That's a very dangerous potential chain.

Gwaer
07-21-2013, 12:08 PM
Needs more princess cory.

Barkam
07-21-2013, 12:39 PM
Actually, I disagree. Pack Raptor is a 1 cost troop that gets bigger, and draws a card. That's insanely powerful.

Of course, if/when sapphire gets 1 mana card draw spells, even if it's just a cantrip, it will probably be a different story, but right now simply because it's a 1 mana 'draw spell' Pack Raptor is worthy.

I already stated that the Pack Raptor is really good. My point is that the ultimate PvE deck doesn't even run Pack Raptor. It doesn't need that insanely strong card. The ultimate PvE deck has two different win conditions and the cards needed can be reliably be played by turn 3 or attack by turn 4. Having two different win conditions make the deck flexible and is another reason why it is the ultimate deck.

Kilo24
07-21-2013, 12:40 PM
These observations are of course assuming that that Warrior tree is final, which is certainly not going to be the case. You also haven't gone into your equipment choices, which is a major part of any PvE deck.

The biggest issue I see is that there's absolutely nothing you can do against flying troops with your deck. You can duel them as a Warrior, but as you emphasize that you're going "100% defence" you probably aren't going to be able to manage much killing power against them.

Let me second the mandatory x4 Spectral Lotuses in PvE. I can't think of any deck that wouldn't benefit from them (not even a contrived one). A free cantrip (and +2 health with equipment) is a major benefit.

Card draw can easily be turned against you with Sabotage or similar effects. You have no defense whatsoever against it, nor are Glimmerglen Witches particularly effective at life-gaining it away.

I'm getting the feeling that there's going to be plenty of "I-WIN" combos in PvE. The big deal here is probably not going to be finding one of those combos, but rather getting it off quickly and reliably enough to keep it working. And usually it means finding a number of "good enough" combos that all fit with eachother into a deck. This deck isn't quick nor does it have any good stalling tactics outside of being a Warrior.

In any case, declaring an "Ultimeate" PvE deck is quite premature at this point. Even if you could, say, get Turn-1-kills 80% of the time, the game still isn't out yet. We don't know what other options there are, we don't know what PvE will be like, nor do we know that there won't be a 90% turn-1-kill deck out there.


Even aside from the things others have mentioned, your deck should at the bare minimum include Chlorophylia, to get more resources earlier, and Eye of Creation, to dump out multiple raptors at once as soon as you've ramped enough mana. You have lots of draws, but not a lot of SPEED.
I'd disagree. Chlorophyllia is pretty useful mana ramp, but he doesn't have a lot of high-cost cards here, and Wild Root Dancer (if he has the helm) plus Dream Dance should do quite a bit on that front. It's also got two threshold, which can cause mana-fixing issues.

Eye of Creation doesn't strike me as worth it with this deck either; it's a very, very nice late-game (or Spectral-Lotus-enhanced) card, but dead weight otherwise. It's probably not worth gambling with it until at least until you cast it with X=3 or 4, but that will likely take until turn 5-6+ (unless you're saccing Lotuses which is best to avoid if possible). I'd think it was at its best with a bunch of mid-to-high-cost cards, not the mass of low-cost cantrips that this deck is founded on. And honestly, in looking at the card I really get the feeling that it's too hard to get working well to be a good choice in most decks.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 01:15 PM
I already stated that the Pack Raptor is really good. My point is that the ultimate PvE deck doesn't even run Pack Raptor. It doesn't need that insanely strong card. The ultimate PvE deck has two different win conditions and the cards needed can be reliably be played by turn 3 or attack by turn 4. Having two different win conditions make the deck flexible and is another reason why it is the ultimate deck.
Well I'll let the cat out of the bag a little bit. I've made an insanely strong PvE decklist - potentially the 'ultimate decklist', based off current spoilers - and it includes Pack Raptor. It's a 1 mana cantrip and potential wincon, though I will admit that the card could very possibly be replaced if a better 1 or 2 mana draw spell is spoiled later on. For now though I'm very happy with it.

Barkam
07-21-2013, 01:38 PM
Well I'll let the cat out of the bag a little bit. I've made an insanely strong PvE decklist - potentially the 'ultimate decklist', based off current spoilers - and it includes Pack Raptor. It's a 1 mana cantrip and potential wincon, though I will admit that the card could very possibly be replaced if a better 1 or 2 mana draw spell is spoiled later on. For now though I'm very happy with it.

To be fair, you were my muse for coming up with the ultimate deck. The ultimate deck also only uses the spoiled cards as of the end of Kickstarter.

I am just surprised the OP didn't run replicator's gambit as well as the Spectral Lotus

Gwaer
07-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Replicators gambit and pack raptor are honestly not great together IMO.

Hemlock
07-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Oh, Jax, you tease.

Also, I think we're better off leaving Lotuses out of these hypothetical decks. The ultimate PVE deck, for me, doesn't have an upkeep cost.

Gwaer
07-21-2013, 01:50 PM
Even without using the active the lotus is still very strong.

Gorgol
07-21-2013, 01:52 PM
Yeah, the best PVE deck will consist of 100% pvp cards :rolleyes:

Hemlock
07-21-2013, 02:02 PM
Even without using the active the lotus is still very strong.

Eh, good point. If you're not activating it, I suppose it does let you essentially make a 56-card deck, as well as counting as an artifact for relevant abilities.

Gwaer
07-21-2013, 02:53 PM
Pretty sure the "Ultimeate" PVE deck needs a roostersaur and a goblin cooking pot too.

snarvid
07-21-2013, 03:03 PM
Pretty sure the "Ultimeate" PVE deck needs a roostersaur and a goblin cooking pot too.

And Glorfenblort for the seal of approval.

Barkam
07-21-2013, 04:53 PM
Replicators gambit and pack raptor are honestly not great together IMO.

You are right because they both need the weapon slot to be awesome. They conflict in that regard. If it wasn't for that conflict, they are really good together. You get two awesome cantrips and even better when you play the replicated raptor.

Gwaer
07-21-2013, 04:58 PM
The pack raptor itself makes the odds of drawing the raptor that you have used replicator on more and more unlikely as time goes on. It's really just not a good pairing.

chansen005
07-21-2013, 06:19 PM
I will be using Lotus' as often as i can but since they're consumables essentially, im going to steer away from them until a boss fight happends

Aradon
07-21-2013, 06:49 PM
Jax, I'm curious about the reliability of your deck. Are you talking about winning consistently on turns 3-4? And is this using actual lotus cards freely, or are you avoiding cracking real lotuses in these matches?

If you're using them freely, I think I've put together a deck pretty similar to what you've got :)

kobisjeruk
07-21-2013, 07:03 PM
I wouldnt put an ultimate tag on anything at this point and from past experience with other online CCG with similar MMO element the best decks tends to be one that execute its combo in the least possible turns, often times in the first 2 turns and each deck cater specifically to a particular boss and wouldnt work anywhere else. The major reasoning is to cut down time and getting as much point/loot as possible in the given event length. Sometimes you need to do a pairing combo i.e. support + damage dealer similar to tank + carry + support in an actual MMO. Also, major point in a good deck is one that is easily available considering you need to do runs/farm plenty of time during the length of event, as such Spectral Lotus is NOT something that would be in such decks considering SL generation is limited to how many SLGs you've got and further limited by its scarcity as a kickstarter promo and method of generating SL. Therefore IMO best PvE (for a particular raid boss / dungeon) deck would be one that doesnt require SL and can get off early without interruption.

Kilo24
07-21-2013, 07:16 PM
...Also, major point in a good deck is one that is easily available considering you need to do runs/farm plenty of time during the length of event, as such Spectral Lotus is NOT something that would be in such decks considering SL generation is limited to how many SLGs you've got and further limited by its scarcity as a kickstarter promo and method of generating SL. Therefore IMO best PvE (for a particular raid boss / dungeon) deck would be one that doesnt require SL and can get off early without interruption.
Most of the time when you play Spectral Lotus, you're not going to use its action. You just use it as a free deck-thinning cantrip, or even more if you've got the health-gaining equipment or synergy with artifacts.

Barkam
07-21-2013, 08:13 PM
Jax, I'm curious about the reliability of your deck. Are you talking about winning consistently on turns 3-4? And is this using actual lotus cards freely, or are you avoiding cracking real lotuses in these matches?

If you're using them freely, I think I've put together a deck pretty similar to what you've got :)

Did you mean to ask me this question instead of Jax? I am the only one in the thread that mentioned how fast my deck is. At any rate, my deck can reliably "win" by turn 4 because by then there is nothing the opponent can do to stop my deck. My deck doesn't consume the Spectral Lotuses that are in the deck.

Aradon
07-21-2013, 08:18 PM
Did you mean to ask me this question instead of Jax? I am the only one in the thread that mentioned how fast my deck is. At any rate, my deck can reliably "win" by turn 4 because by then there is nothing the opponent can do to stop my deck. My deck doesn't consume the Spectral Lotuses that are in the deck.

Sorry! Yes, I had mistakenly recalled Jax as the poster of the comment I was thinking of. I know that my deck's slightly different from yours, though. Still, it sounds like it follows pretty similar lines of play.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 08:51 PM
Jax, I'm curious about the reliability of your deck. Are you talking about winning consistently on turns 3-4? And is this using actual lotus cards freely, or are you avoiding cracking real lotuses in these matches?

If you're using them freely, I think I've put together a deck pretty similar to what you've got :)
We probably have similar concepts. ;-)

As for reliability? I did the maths on it about two months ago - in a raid environment (3 players), with all 3 players having the RL buff and using this deck, and with a couple fair rule assumptions that we will need to find out about when the game comes out (ie. a mulligan is -1 card, not down to 6 straight up), it has a 99.85% chance of going off for at least one player by turn 2.

That's using Lotuses freely, which I would for progression content.

Skirovik
07-21-2013, 08:52 PM
So...

Would anyone care to actually post their decks?

If not, my imaginary deck can win by turn 1, 100% of the time. :p

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 09:07 PM
Well I'm hoping to challenge for raid firsts, so it might be unwise for me to do so. I've probably said too much as it is. :-P I'll post it at some future point though.

Aradon
07-21-2013, 09:12 PM
Last time I posted my awesome combo idea, everyone told me I should keep my mouth shut :P
At this point, I'll try and beat some raids with it first, then post it if it's successful. Who knows, maybe raids will trash it with their speshul powers :P

Barkam
07-21-2013, 09:47 PM
So...

Would anyone care to actually post their decks?

If not, my imaginary deck can win by turn 1, 100% of the time. :p

Nice try. :)

Barkam
07-21-2013, 09:52 PM
Well I'm hoping to challenge for raid firsts, so it might be unwise for me to do so. I've probably said too much as it is. :-P I'll post it at some future point though.

The thing that will slow me down is to get the cards that are needed for it. I won't be going for world firsts because I have no time for that. I will going for least amount of attempts. My deck can theoretically handle every scenario. If my deck can't beat the dungeon/raid, then that means no other deck would have any chance. I will even attempt to solo raids. :cool:

nicosharp
07-21-2013, 10:14 PM
The thing that will slow me down is to get the cards that are needed for it. I won't be going for world firsts because I have no time for that. I will going for least amount of attempts. My deck can theoretically handle every scenario. If my deck can't beat the dungeon/raid, then that means no other deck would have any chance. I will even attempt to solo raids. :cool:

There is only one problem Barkam. There will be raids with -1/-1 ongoing to all creatures in play :eek:

Rycajo
07-21-2013, 10:16 PM
I sure hope CZE is up to the challenge of making their dungeons and raids difficult; hopefully enough to snuff the pride out of any deck that is currently built with only a fraction of the revealed set.


At any rate, my deck can reliably "win" by turn 4 because by then there is nothing the opponent can do to stop my deck.

(emphasis added)
I'm most interested in this bit of puffery here. Or are you seriously trying to claim you can think of absolutely no way CZE could stop that deck after turn 4? I submit you either haven't tried hard enough or you feel CZE is going to make a level playing ground in all encounters.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 10:21 PM
There is only one problem Barkam. There will be raids with -1/-1 ongoing to all creatures in play :eek:
That's not an issue if Barkam is onto a similar deck to Aradon and I.

@Barkam though - don't get too far ahead of yourself; I posted my odds for 3 people on turn 2 because they'll be the usual odds, but my deck is more likely than not going to go off for a single player on turn 1, and can also handle many scenarios (I'm reluctant to say any as we don't know what the devs will throw at us in regards to raids yet).

nicosharp
07-21-2013, 10:21 PM
I sure hope CZE is up to the challenge of making their dungeons and raids difficult; hopefully enough to snuff the pride out of any deck that is currently built with only a fraction of the revealed set.



(emphasis added)
I'm most interested in this bit of puffery here. Or are you seriously trying to claim you can think of absolutely no way CZE could stop that deck after turn 4? I submit you either haven't tried hard enough or you feel CZE is going to make a level playing ground in all encounters.
In Barkam's case - although it may be a bit of puffery, I have a hard time seeing the deck losing in PvE, given the double win condition he is eluding at. There are only 3 weakpoints of the deck, that can be exploited, but will more than likely not be countered in PvE scenarios.


That's not an issue if Barkam is onto a similar deck to Aradon and I.

I know what deck Barkam is talking about because I helped him flesh out the second win condition, but yes, in raids, a big issue would be an ongoing effect as mentioned. Also turn 3 murder ;)

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-21-2013, 10:26 PM
I still feel like all 3 of us are onto similar decks, but there must be a difference if -1/-1 is a stopper.

nicosharp
07-21-2013, 10:33 PM
I still feel like all 3 of us are onto similar decks, but there must be a difference if -1/-1 is a stopper.

I doubt they are similar. I will say that I've already found 4 PvE synergies that will all be amazing, but with less than 20% of the card pool spoiled, I am sure there is a lot of insane combos in set 1 that will blow our minds once we get our hands on the entire set.

The larger challenge is #1 finding the equipment to support the combos, and then #2 controlling the AH so other people can't afford the combos :p

Skirovik
07-21-2013, 10:37 PM
Considering how new I am to TCG's, I'm reading this thread more to learn than anything else. I really am interested in these deck ideas and have absolutely nowhere near enough time or dedication to go for world firsts personally. In which case, I would love for any of you 3 (4?) to PM me your decks so I can have a look through them or at least a small synergistic part of it so I have some idea what you're all talking about.

At the moment I feel like I walked in half-way through a conversation where everyone knows what's going on except me. I know that's not the case though, since I have read this thread from start to finish.

Seriously, just trying to learn here. I definitely understand holding onto your secrets for the time being though. As I said, any snippet of info would be nice, even just PM'ed. I have no need to go and post things like that on a public forum. I certainly wouldn't benefit from it (I'm a bit selfish like that sometimes :p).

Aradon
07-22-2013, 12:02 AM
-1/-1 to all my creatures would be a big slowdown, due to it killing one of my best filter sources, but it wouldn't stop the combo. It'd just take longer and be more inconsistent in assembling it. Currently, I'm at turn 4-5 without breaking lotuses, and turn 3 with lotuses, after goldfishing 30 games each way. The best iteration for consistency, unfortunately, has little room for silver bullets, so for a versatile raid deck, it'd slow down some. I'd be worried, but I fully expect some more cards that will be helpful to be spoiled before game is released.

Also, Coercive Blade is way better than calling blade :D <3 Peek

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 12:13 AM
Bah, we totally need the game to come out. Then people can take the raid firsts, and we can discuss the decklists without all this cloak and dagger. :-P

Barkam
07-22-2013, 12:21 AM
I sure hope CZE is up to the challenge of making their dungeons and raids difficult; hopefully enough to snuff the pride out of any deck that is currently built with only a fraction of the revealed set.



(emphasis added)
I'm most interested in this bit of puffery here. Or are you seriously trying to claim you can think of absolutely no way CZE could stop that deck after turn 4? I submit you either haven't tried hard enough or you feel CZE is going to make a level playing ground in all encounters.

I say this because the raids would be "impossible" for those that don't use a deck with the same strength as the deck I speak of. I am assuming a certain deck strength curve that CZE would adhere to when designing raids to make sure that the game is fun. CZE needs to design their raids so that people feel they have a chance of beating them so that they are not discouraged even if it isn't the case. I suppose it is entirely possible that CZE would make dungeons/raids so hard that it would require one specific deck to beat it and any variation from it would lose and therefore my deck would fail.

Barkam
07-22-2013, 12:24 AM
There is only one problem Barkam. There will be raids with -1/-1 ongoing to all creatures in play :eek:

If it's a card, no problem. :) If it's a raid state, then yeah, I will need to depend on 2nd win condition and will now care what the raid deck is doing. :(

Barkam
07-22-2013, 12:25 AM
Bah, we totally need the game to come out. Then people can take the raid firsts, and we can discuss the decklists without all this cloak and dagger. :-P

You can have the raid firsts. I'll be just farming the legendary equipment. :D

Barkam
07-22-2013, 12:49 AM
That's not an issue if Barkam is onto a similar deck to Aradon and I.

@Barkam though - don't get too far ahead of yourself; I posted my odds for 3 people on turn 2 because they'll be the usual odds, but my deck is more likely than not going to go off for a single player on turn 1, and can also handle many scenarios (I'm reluctant to say any as we don't know what the devs will throw at us in regards to raids yet).

I am intrigued to hear that you can have your win condition on turn 1. Even, if the first 2 players feed the third player cards and all three players have RL bonus, I don't see how you'll get win condition on turn 1. The only shard accelerator available on turn 1 is the spectral lotus. Maybe, I am just not understanding what you are saying above.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 12:57 AM
Each player can do it indivudally, but the mana and threshold from Spectral Lotus is all you need.

chansen005
07-22-2013, 12:59 AM
im the owner of this thread, and im with skirovik, i dunnow what the hell you guys are talking about, but calling blade > coersive blade because you need sapphires to play peek, thus you have to play blue... and who wants to do that?

Barkam
07-22-2013, 01:19 AM
Each player can do it indivudally, but the mana and threshold from Spectral Lotus is all you need.

Oh Ok. So you do have to burn through Spectral Lotuses. The ultimate deck doesn't have to activate the Spectral Lotuses in the deck.

Barkam
07-22-2013, 01:21 AM
im the owner of this thread, and im with skirovik, i dunnow what the hell you guys are talking about, but calling blade > coersive blade because you need sapphires to play peek, thus you have to play blue... and who wants to do that?

Blue is critical to pull off any of the crazy combos using the currently spoiled cards.

Aradon
07-22-2013, 01:21 AM
Yes, with a good hand, my deck's won on turn one. It's under 5% chance of happening, though giving me 3 RL buffs sure would help :D
And Peek is amazing. Don't knock blue!
Sorry for derailing your thread, though :(

Edit: And Barkam, I'm pretty sure both Jax and I are talking about t1 wins without actually consuming a lotus.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 01:27 AM
I don't go turn 1 without consuming a Lotus. If there's a turn 1 infinite combo that doesn't involve using it, I'd be quite impressed.

Barkam
07-22-2013, 01:35 AM
I don't go turn 1 without consuming a Lotus. If there's a turn 1 infinite combo that doesn't involve using it, I'd be quite impressed.

My sentiments exactly. Though, Aradon is claiming he can. :)

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 01:48 AM
Feels like the Mokog/Funktion contest all over again. :-P There are definitely some explosive starts you can do on turn 1 with non-Lotus 'god hands', but I can't see infinite.

ossuary
07-22-2013, 09:08 AM
I wonder how mad someone with a Pack Raptor deck will be if their opponent manages to drop 1 or 2 Omen of Oblivion cards before they manage to dump a raptor. ;)

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 09:36 AM
I wonder how mad someone with a Pack Raptor deck will be if their opponent manages to drop 1 or 2 Omen of Oblivion cards before they manage to dump a raptor. ;)
With the head equipment that lets you choose 2 cards instead of 1? How dastardly! :-P

nicosharp
07-22-2013, 10:19 AM
Here is a big hint - Spectral Lotus Equipment, Creating multiple opportunities for early game card cycling (turn 1 and turn 2) and potential graveyard recursion.

Aradon
07-22-2013, 10:21 AM
Sorry, I was completely wrong, mixing up some turn 1 and 2 plays. It was quite late, and I was thinking poorly. No t1 without burning a real lotus.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 10:28 AM
Isn't everyone just excited for more spoilers though? :-3 I'm really hoping sapphire gets a better draw option than Peek for 1 mana, that will slot right into our decks. Or a good 2 mana option, like a "Telling Time" style card from Magic (look at the top 3 cards of your deck, put 1 into your hand, 1 on top of your deck, and 1 on the bottom of your deck).

Aradon
07-22-2013, 10:41 AM
I <3 telling time, wish they would reprint it so I could get some copies. As for peek, if it drew on its own, I would want nothing more. It's pretty much worth the weapon slot, though, imo. Peek is insanely good with just a couple sapphire sources.

But yeah, still looking for some more blue tools. Blue has a ton of cards I'm looking forward to playing with, but I'm always on the lookout for more actions and quick actions.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 11:27 AM
The issue with Peek for me and my deck is that it doesn't increase the odds of going off enough to remove the wincon side of Pack Raptor + Calling Blade. If it drew a card without the equipment, even if the effect were simply "look at the top of card of your deck - you may shuffle your deck. Draw a card", I'd include it without a second thought.

ossuary
07-22-2013, 11:35 AM
Thankfully, judging by the power level we've seen from the other colors' spoiled cards, it's virtually guaranteed that there will be SOME kind of 1-3 cost "draw card(s)" type effect in sapphire - which will be, again judging by the existing spoilers, only slightly less insane than ancestral recall.

Maybe something Bazaar of Baghdad-y like 2 cost, draw 3, then choose and discard 2? Great if you have a big hand and can afford to jettison the waste, still not terrible even if your hand is empty and you really need to get some kind of progression.

Rycajo
07-22-2013, 05:44 PM
I say this because the raids would be "impossible" for those that don't use a deck with the same strength as the deck I speak of. I am assuming a certain deck strength curve that CZE would adhere to when designing raids to make sure that the game is fun. CZE needs to design their raids so that people feel they have a chance of beating them so that they are not discouraged even if it isn't the case. I suppose it is entirely possible that CZE would make dungeons/raids so hard that it would require one specific deck to beat it and any variation from it would lose and therefore my deck would fail.

What makes your deck strong? I assume it can pull off some crazy combo on a consistent basis? But what if a key piece of that combo was modified for a specific raid?

Some ideas for state-based modifications to the normal rules that could ruin a "perfect" deck and support CZE's desire to encourage the player to adjust decks and build new decks rather than find a degenerate combo and abuse it:

The player may not play more than X cards per turn.
A card's cost may not be reduced.
A player may not have more than X troops in play at any one time. Any new troop entering play bounces a target troop.
A player may not use each threshold type more than once per turn.
A troop's attack may not exceed X.
Discard a card/sacrifice a troop/take damage everytime X happens.


Just a few off the top of my head. Obviously, I'm not saying CZE will want to put in weird/different rules for all encounters. But the PvE game will be more interesting if some general rules are broken and bent to encourage different play styles.

Cory is very vocally against degenerate combos. The Ebonrock/Jouneyman Technician seems to be as degenerate as they come. I would be quite surprised if Ebonrock isn't modified before release (or after). CZE will not want a mercenary to be a required piece of a strong combo. But be a part of a fun combo? Yes. Now you may have found other crazy combos and that is great. That creativity is desirable. But hopefully you are forced to use your creativity over and over again instead of finding one fix-all solution.

Aradon
07-22-2013, 08:40 PM
Rycajo, I've thought about your proposal before. Adding in rules like these seem like the only way of balancing such a crazy PvE format. My hope is that they avoid doing so in the interest of avoiding a PvE where every raid has a set of fifteen 'don't have fun' rules. Instead, I'm hoping that they lock the higher rewards away behind the 'heroic' highlander mode, where these awesome combo decks aren't going to be consistent enough to pose a problem. Degenerate decks could farm regular raids, but it wouldn't be as profitable as less degenerate decks that could fight their way through Heroic mode.

Anyways, yeah, I agree, I can make a really strong deck right now, but they could break it in half with raid mechanics if they want to. All I can do right now is make it as resilient to disruption via spells.

Rycajo
07-22-2013, 09:35 PM
If by higher rewards you mean the same rewards that look different, then yes, the higher rewards will be locked in the legendary mode. Perhaps CZE won't resort to special rules for different dungeons, but hopefully they prevent single decks from walking through the PvE in some way.

Barkam
07-22-2013, 10:26 PM
What makes your deck strong? I assume it can pull off some crazy combo on a consistent basis?

Yes, and my deck has two distinct win conditions that cover each other's weakness.


But what if a key piece of that combo was modified for a specific raid?

Yes, the combo will not work.........


Some ideas for state-based modifications to the normal rules that could ruin a "perfect" deck and support CZE's desire to encourage the player to adjust decks and build new decks rather than find a degenerate combo and abuse it:

The player may not play more than X cards per turn.
A card's cost may not be reduced.
A player may not have more than X troops in play at any one time. Any new troop entering play bounces a target troop.
A player may not use each threshold type more than once per turn.
A troop's attack may not exceed X.
Discard a card/sacrifice a troop/take damage everytime X happens.


Just a few off the top of my head. Obviously, I'm not saying CZE will want to put in weird/different rules for all encounters. But the PvE game will be more interesting if some general rules are broken and bent to encourage different play styles.

Yes, those would be examples when I said that CZE can design raids that would require specific decks. Really hard for a deck to be successful if the cards in it are not allowed to be played...


Cory is very vocally against degenerate combos. The Ebonrock/Jouneyman Technician seems to be as degenerate as they come. I would be quite surprised if Ebonrock isn't modified before release (or after). CZE will not want a mercenary to be a required piece of a strong combo. But be a part of a fun combo? Yes. Now you may have found other crazy combos and that is great. That creativity is desirable. But hopefully you are forced to use your creativity over and over again instead of finding one fix-all solution.

There is argument for either design decision. I don't know which one I would side with yet.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-22-2013, 10:44 PM
Also, I'll point out that the key strength of Ebonrock is Reverse Engineering, not the make-every-troop-an-artifact ability. That's certainly good, but Reverse Engineering is what makes him insane.

I think most of us with these decklists have known for a while that the key to stopping the decks isn't changing the cards, but by putting certain mechanics in place to prevent them going off. Hopefully, these mechanics will also be available for keep defense.

Hemlock
07-23-2013, 07:11 AM
Alright, this might not be the deck that others have been talking about, but I figured out a way to play a 7-cost bomb every game on turn 3. I'd be amazed if the trick makes it past beta, though.

LargoLaGrande
07-23-2013, 09:06 AM
Spectral Loti HATE HIM!

Hexer's discovery revealed the secret to playing huge bombs in just 3 turns!

Hemlock
07-23-2013, 09:11 AM
My strategy doesn't use a lotus. I don't have a garden, so I'd prefer to avoid them.

LargoLaGrande
07-23-2013, 09:12 AM
That would be why the loti hate you.

Hemlock
07-23-2013, 09:14 AM
... Haha, only just got your reference.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-23-2013, 09:39 AM
Alright, this might not be the deck that others have been talking about, but I figured out a way to play a 7-cost bomb every game on turn 3. I'd be amazed if the trick makes it past beta, though.
Guaranteed? I certainly know it's possible, and not even difficult, but unless I'm missing something I don't think it's guaranteed.

On a related note, you can actually get out a 6 drop every game on turn 3, guaranteed (if you so choose).

Hemlock
07-23-2013, 10:53 AM
Guaranteed? I certainly know it's possible, and not even difficult, but unless I'm missing something I don't think it's guaranteed.

On a related note, you can actually get out a 6 drop every game on turn 3, guaranteed (if you so choose).

Yup, guaranteed, if I understand the relevant abilities correctly. Nothing spoilered so far can stop it. Of course, your opponent could Murder the bomb when it comes out, but a lot of those 7-cost bombs have equipment that can make them Invincible.

I almost certainly lack the time/money to go for firsts, so I suppose I might as well post it. Give me a little while to make sure I'm not missing any reasons to keep it to myself.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-23-2013, 11:27 AM
Can't wait to see it - I enjoy being enlightened to stuff I've overlooked. :-) Though, I am a bit skeptical - only because of the guarantee bit, which I'm reading to be 100%.

Hemlock
07-23-2013, 02:13 PM
Alright, I'll cough it up. I'll make a new thread, though, as this one's getting a bit cluttered :P

kobisjeruk
07-24-2013, 12:52 AM
I figured SL will transform once you played it and not when you use the activation. If they coded it the way they worded it (you'd be surprised how many digital card games wasnt worded properly) then I guess I was wrong and it is in fact a 0 cost cantrip artifact which is a wet dream for combo decks.

Punintelligent
07-24-2013, 01:00 AM
Anyone have any cool ideas for spirit dance? http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Spirit-Dance/133 I feel like this card has a lot of potential for cool combos.

chansen005
07-24-2013, 01:02 AM
Oh yeah, drop that on my packraptor deck, and looking at the equipment, you can give all troops in your deck, +4/+0 and cost -4..... I WIN!

Punintelligent
07-24-2013, 01:04 AM
Yeah exactly. That equipment makes that card WAY good. any creature that can draw you a card for 4 mana becomes big and free.

chansen005
07-24-2013, 01:08 AM
Yeah bro, my Turtles that draw me a card from the sapphire gem are now free (or 1, we wont know until beta)

Punintelligent
07-24-2013, 01:08 AM
Yeah I was curious if you could dorp them to 1 or if they could be free too. I guess threshold is still an issue too in that case.

chansen005
07-24-2013, 01:09 AM
all my pack raptors are free..... all my boulder brutes and ambershire instigators cost 1... and then i get the W

Punintelligent
07-24-2013, 01:10 AM
Yup.

jaxsonbatemanhex
07-24-2013, 01:12 AM
Firstly, where did they get that equipment from? As far as I know Spirit Dance wasn't a card spoiled by CZE (or by someone else on behalf of them), and was captured on a stream or something similar. Out of the three pieces of equipment, only one of them sounds like it could belong to Spirit Dance, and even then it feels like it'd be more "+2/-2 and -2 cost". Basically, I'd take it with a grain of salt.

In any case, for my raid deck (or the dungeon variation of it), Spirit Dance is too slow. >.< Though Hemlock's idea of Master Theorycrafter and his trinket warrants consideration (though I have no idea what I'd cut for it, and at such a high going-off % I probably shouldn't mess with it at this point in time).