PDA

View Full Version : Underworld And Females



FrySea2011
07-26-2013, 06:40 PM
As I read the lore I cannot help, but notice the lack diverse gender roles... In other world the Underworld could be consider misogynist.

Dwarves: are made of stone and are all male

Vennen: are all born from Xentoth and are all male

Shin'hare: the only race that actually reproduce. in this case the female are either cannon fodder or concubunny.

Necrotic: technically there are some females, but does gender really apply? Necrotic are just reanimated corpses with an alien intelligence. Once a body decomposes the Necrotic can just find a new body regardless of gender with little regard.

After looking at these facts I conclude that the Underworld is a Sausage Fest. Does anyone think that the Underworld needs more females in a more diverse role?

Hemlock
07-26-2013, 07:27 PM
To be fair, the Shin'hare see everyone as cannon fodder.

Avaian
07-26-2013, 07:38 PM
I am not sure how you can give a more diverse role.

For the Shin'hare, the females are the same as males unless they are chosen to be Concubunnies. The Concubunnies are only below the Exalted Emperor in status.

Dwarves are more of a gender-less race that appear to be males since they do not reproduce.

For the Vennen, Xentoth is the only female and she is a primal.

The Necrotic we don't really have enough information about their society. As far as we know the entities are gender-less but may assume the roles of the gender of the body they awoken in.

keroko
07-26-2013, 07:41 PM
didnt think about that until you mentioned it. I'd agree we've not seen as much art with females on it as have with males (to my recollection) so far, for the underworld races.

the whole amalgam thing with dwarves makes sense. it could be thought of as a desire to produce offspring of their own through machine fusion / artificial life. they don't have females and they intend to do something about it to a degree, well without the sex thing.

shin'hare DEFINATELY have females. They're what makes the whole operation possible, and they've got social structures to basically run an enormous eugenics program. Females are at the core of that. They also send out females to fight, just like the guys.


http://hextcg.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/necrotic2.jpg
she looks pretty female, and not the kind you'd trifle with.

it is important to realize that entrath isnt earth.

I'd agree girls and women (and men) playing this game need to have and consider cards with female art on them subconsciously as valid as those with male art on them.

I don't think its an active issue, but everything the designers do is set to make us think, so I'd agree we need a touch of the fairer represented.

we're human right? I'd imagine the humans will rep us well.
I'd also bet there's traitorous ardent or two, humans are corruptible.

we do need more folk of dark skin, they said that's coming. Mighty moor constituents of the human empire?

Who knows? female elves might really be a thing with the fans? :p
Regardless, they should be powerful beings - not sexual objects.
thats what the princess cory card is for.

how many cards with a humanoid pictured in the art have we seen so far? still a lot of room.

HyenaNipples
07-26-2013, 07:48 PM
Entrath seems to take a more traditional Tolkien approach to evil as opposed to say, World of Warcraft's Azeroth.

Meaning, that the Underworld is made of evil, non-human races with mostly unrecognizable societies. The dwarves are insane pyros, the Vennen are insane sadists, the Shin'hare are insane rodents, and the Necrotic are aliens. It doesn't make sense to apply the female/male political correctness to them- they fall outside the realm of gender-based consideration. All the politically correct male/female stuff is for the Ardent.

Meanwhile, Azeroth is a more modern, cultural conflict type approach to opposing factions and thus you would want role-models of both sexes.

Gwaer
07-26-2013, 08:09 PM
Also the underworld is evil, misogyny is evil... So the underworld is misogynistic. That's how logic works right?

*just to be clear that is not how logic works.


**Yes, I think there could be more gender diversity. What happened to the all female evil race? =(

Armies
07-26-2013, 08:14 PM
Also the underworld is evil, misogyny is evil... So the underworld is misogynistic. That's how logic works right?

*just to be clear that is not how logic works.


**Yes, I think there could be more gender diversity. What happened to the all female evil race? =(
Like the evil race of mermaids trying to take over the seas of Entrath?

Gwaer
07-26-2013, 08:36 PM
Like the evil race of mermaids trying to take over the seas of Entrath?
That sounds pretty amazing, especially since there are evil mermaids in another card game called berserk... It's russian, there's a lot of *good quality art in that game.

*pronounced in this instance as nudity.

Demar_Black
07-26-2013, 10:04 PM
Vennen are just driders from D&D, which I think were also all male right?

The rabbits are a bit unusual in that being a concubunny is an honor...though we should ideally have female bunnies in other roles as time goes on.

Dwarves could have females.

Necrotic do have females. This one is definitely not a sausagefest race.

FrySea2011
07-27-2013, 05:46 AM
The issue with the Necrotic is that female/male does not really matter since it is an alien conscious that moves from body to body. Without more information on the culture it is reasonable that gender does not exist in Necrotic culture except for clothing, which could be more practicality then fashion.

For the Shin'hare, I wonder what happens if a female survives being cannon fodder long enough, but is not good enough to be a concubunny?

Having female Vennen would have been cool. They could be brood mothers that could produce drones or control giant spiders. Just think of what a Vennen Arachne would look like.

ossuary
07-27-2013, 05:53 AM
the Shin'hare are insane rodents

FYI, rabbits are not rodents (though they are often considered vermin). This is a common misconception. Unless you were just being hyperbolic? If so, my apologies. :)

HyenaNipples
07-27-2013, 06:33 AM
No. I was not. Bask in your pedantic victory.

:p

keroko
07-27-2013, 07:59 AM
The issue with the Necrotic is that female/male does not really matter since it is an alien conscious that moves from body to body. Without more information on the culture it is reasonable that gender does not exist in Necrotic culture except for clothing, which could be more practicality then fashion

they, the host bodies, are dead. sex is only relevant from the perspective of genetic component or expressed phenotype of the life instance. In this case the corpses are either formerly male or female, assuming the came from a race that had sexes.

you could say the exact same thing about necrotic men.

it's biomass. dead biomass.


http://vimeo.com/karmafeast/hellrealm

Novalius
07-28-2013, 12:18 AM
One subtle thing I like about Magic is how all of their angels are female. It's simply something they decided on a long time ago and it's kind of a cool thing. It might be nice if Hex did that with a particular race or creature type later on down the road (like the aforementioned post about mermaids.) Especially since we'll need some duality to the all male look of the dwarves.

keroko
07-28-2013, 06:57 AM
nu uh on the only female angels (specifically) - u no ruin my eye prons

JBento
07-28-2013, 04:29 PM
Mysogyny: That word does not mean what you seem to think it means.

The dwarves are genderless rock-piles, and the vennen are ruled by a female (and a primal one, no less) which is about as unmysogynistic as you can get.

Devs only know what's the FULL deal with the necrotics, but they don't seem to have a "you're female, therefore you suck" mentality.

The vermin ARE a bit mysogynistic, in that it doesn't seem like the Emperor can be a female, but those are the only ones.

You know who seems to be the most mysogynistic so far? Humans. From the King Gabriel's entry:

"Princess Victoria, the eldest, is a fighter of estimable prowess, though her parents wish she would concern herself with duties more typical of female royalty."

Behold, very slight mysogyny.

FrySea2011
07-28-2013, 04:50 PM
Am i the only one disappointed over never seeing a sexy female stone dwarf, or female vennen in a bikini? ;)

keroko
07-28-2013, 09:35 PM
I'm fighting a never ending full on war over at the ffxiv forums, defending against implementation of 'ass sliders' and people complaining they can only go to G cup or whatever. I'm glad our community isn't made up of slavering boys (yet).


http://youtu.be/3fVNQeulE6Q

here's a thing about a lady fighter in hard armor. they'd strap em down, or cut em off. simple as that.

I want to see beautiful women who'd do just that.
Who're powerful of mind, who are manifestations of will,
not reflections of estrogen or the desires of testosterone.
They're not looking for equality, for approval, or for validation.
They demand and strive to exceed their own excellence.

I'm looking for women who are beyond capable, as it is IRL,
those who would rise when it was needed.

so no vennen in sexy, hot thorax revealing lingerie.
more women who'd make their opponents know their unmaking and quake.

one sex to the other is just inverted genitals - either way you look.

The Princess will save the Queen.

Niedar
11-14-2013, 03:51 AM
Vennen are just driders from D&D, which I think were also all male right?

The rabbits are a bit unusual in that being a concubunny is an honor...though we should ideally have female bunnies in other roles as time goes on.

Dwarves could have females.

Necrotic do have females. This one is definitely not a sausagefest race.

More importantly about Necrotic is humans have females, and necrotic use human bodies. We don't actually know if necrotic even have different sexes or not do we.

HyenaNipples
11-15-2013, 12:23 PM
Lixil the Deathless inhabits a corpse which has boobs, but I don't think that means female.

The Necrotic are asexual as far as I can tell. Since they are animated by Entrath's finite supply of Hex gems, they technically can't reproduce at all. It will be a different story if we find out the Necrotic can create Hex gems.

trapline
11-29-2013, 09:39 PM
I think it's a mistake to push gender equality at the expense of story in any case, if the underworld is misogynistic, then it's just more story opportunities for the overworld to fight harder to retain it's lifestyle. Too often today we see good writing butchered for the sake of public appeasement, quite often before those stories can even get off the ground and introduce real fleshed out characters representing the special interest.

Too many times a writer will come up with a vision, something compelling and have it completely buried under the weight of social pressure to conform to PC values. then inevitably a round of changes tramples the original work by introducing random nonsense characters to represent the PC demands, and even worse.. well written villans and their acts become watered down, and ultimately lose what is most valuable to an antagonist..the ability to stir the very motivations of the protagonists to arrive at a conflict.

I think as silly as the name concubunny is, it presents a very interesting plot point on many angles, something that could offer compelling story, and good reasons for conflict beyond you are bad I am good. there could be a whole human group of freedom fighting women warriors that infiltrate and liberate Shin'hare females at a young age, sheltering them from death squads sent to retrieve them or eliminate them from starting a rival empire.

Pseudoradius
11-30-2013, 07:59 PM
I think the main problem with this (if I thought there was one) would be, that drawing a gender parallel between our race and non-human races in a fictional universe where humans are also present is very questionable, since you can hardly justify not drawing that parallel to the actual humans in this world.
Sure, you can compare how societies are structured etc. but you will not be able to reasonably derive a misogynist meaning from that.


there could be a whole human group of freedom fighting women warriors that infiltrate and liberate Shin'hare females at a young age, sheltering them from death squads sent to retrieve them or eliminate them from starting a rival empire.
Sorry, but imo this story concept is horribly bad. Why would they only rescue female Shin'Hare? The Shin'Hare society sees about 99% of its members as expendable cannon fodder, regardless of gender, also they can hardly start a rival empire or have a chance to for a new functioning society without having males to live and breed with.
Also, why are there only women in that group? I doubt that only women care about fighting for freedom.
I get that this was only meant as an example, but it definitely is far from a good one.

trapline
12-01-2013, 10:51 PM
I think the main problem with this (if I thought there was one) would be, that drawing a gender parallel between our race and non-human races in a fictional universe where humans are also present is very questionable, since you can hardly justify not drawing that parallel to the actual humans in this world.
Sure, you can compare how societies are structured etc. but you will not be able to reasonably derive a misogynist meaning from that.


Sorry, but imo this story concept is horribly bad. Why would they only rescue female Shin'Hare? The Shin'Hare society sees about 99% of its members as expendable cannon fodder, regardless of gender, also they can hardly start a rival empire or have a chance to for a new functioning society without having males to live and breed with.
Also, why are there only women in that group? I doubt that only women care about fighting for freedom.
I get that this was only meant as an example, but it definitely is far from a good one.

I sort of modeled the idea off of take back the night, and current women shelters where men aren't allowed inside and ran with it. There can be any number of freedom fighter groups you are correct, but human nature is more driven to smaller groups that have similar values. The reasoning in my idea was based not on shinhare societies views on everyone being expendable, but based on what an outside human special interest group would view that society as based on their shared viewpoint.
The rival empire probably was the weakest point of that example, but hey It was typed at 3am while I was drunk waiting in a cab, and I think I did alright.

KnowingCrow
05-03-2014, 02:25 PM
Why would all of Xentoth's children be male? It seems like a needlessly narrow art direction for a race of spider people. Dwarves have no gender because they do not reproduce sexually, so that makes sense. But the Vennen do have males and females, but a a ridiculous proportion that makes very little sense; all Vennen are male except their mother, Xentoth. Why? If Xentoth would to die, become barren, or otherwise dissapear, the Vennen race would go extinct. The entire Vennen race depends on a single female with no ability to produce any more with no explanation as to why this is.

NoahBuddy
05-03-2014, 04:39 PM
Xentoth is the primal of malice i'm not sure if that makes her vennen. as a primal she is basically a demi-god and is pretty hard to kill. i don't know why CZE went with 2 all male races think it would be better with female vennen. also i'm not exactly sure how dwarves procreate but i think the are crafted by other dwarves. if that's true in the whole history of that race not one man dwarf tried to create a female version? i find that strange.

Fateanomaly
05-06-2014, 07:53 PM
Xentoth doesn't care if the vennen goes extinct after she died. In the first place she created the vennen because the orcs unintentionally pissed her off not because she cared about the vennens.

Glae
05-16-2014, 08:20 AM
The vennen male-ness is also kinda weird. Most insects IRL have the drones/workers as females, with a few weak males and very few queens. If Xentoth is the only queen (so far/ever) then it makes sense to have a few prince type dudes and then nearly all gender "neutral" females. I mean they're giant spider monsters so they don't need mammary glands anyway. You could change the pronouns and not miss a beat.

(And yes, I know that spiders are not insects, but I'm pretty sure aranchnids work the same way)

Gwaer
05-18-2014, 01:12 AM
Xentoth is a primal, she's not a vennen, she's a diety that warped orcs into the vennen, and she is their sole queen, she makes them herself, basically to just kill orcs, because they made her quite upset one time. To be perfectly honest, I think these gender roles are correct, I think it would be much more of a flag for people if there was one male ruler that magically produced a race of female spiderslaves to do his bidding. At least the power structure is a matriarchy which is less common in american culture at least.

Glae
05-23-2014, 07:43 AM
Right... I'm not suggesting Xentoth should be a dude. Or that there should be a race of sexy spider ladies from him to breed with.

I just think its weird that there's one female who's not really part of the race, and that 100% of the vennen are dudes. We know the vennen mechanically can reproduce from all the cards that make 2/1 spiders. We know that vennen are converted from orcs to vennen. We know that orcs have female fighters.

So why are there no female vennen? And why are the vennen all specifically male, as opposed to gender neutral/unclear monsters? Are all these dude spiders supposed to be carrying around the eggs of a god to implant in incubation slaves/enemy champions? What happens to female orcs? Are they killed so they don't rival Xentoth? Do they become male vennen? Does the process not work on them for some actual reason?

These are questions that haven't been answered, and some of them can't possibly have good answers.

Gwaer
05-23-2014, 08:28 AM
I can imagine pretty good answers for all those questions. Only time will tell if loregoyle can as well.

Glae
05-23-2014, 01:13 PM
Well. I think its pointing out some obvious holes in the lore. They can come back in and retcon some reasons that avoid being icky, but I'd be generally curious to know if any of those answered existed in the lore before this thread. Based on how frequently this thread has been touched by CZE, its likely well never know.

ossuary
05-23-2014, 05:15 PM
Those 2/1 troops are spiderspawn, not Vennen. Their troop type is "spider." It's not the same thing as Xentoth producing full-fledged Vennen.

Glae
05-28-2014, 12:48 PM
Yeah! I know that! I can read text. What's your point? Male vennen lay eggs and make baby spiders. Sorry, wait Spiderspawn, which is a 2/1 Spider that has a blood threshold. I'm not sure what the resource coat is but I'm sure someone in here will be sure to correct me as if that point completely invalidates my point.

All male vennen-> lay eggs->baby spiders

That just raises further questions and makes even less sense than before.

Gwaer
05-28-2014, 02:07 PM
... Why do you think the spiderspawn come from eggs laid by the male vennen. And not more likely other spiders/pets they cultivate for various purposes.

Glae
05-29-2014, 01:48 PM
Because spiders lay eggs in their prey. Because there are no other spiders in play. Because, IIRC, there are no other spiders in the entire game. There are plenty of master and pet cards in Hex, vennen and spiders are not one of them. In fact, the only way to get a spider in Hex is from a Vennen, or an Orc slave.

This isn't like if King Gabriel had an effect to make a 2/2 wolf cub, this is an effect that multiple vennen cards have. It's to the point it feels safe to say "making baby spiders" is a vennen effect, just like "making battle hoppers" is a Shin hare effect. And yes, I'm aware there are more battle hopper cards than spider spawn cards, there are also more Shin hare than Vennen.

Gwaer
05-29-2014, 03:00 PM
It's much more logical that the spiders are pets of theirs that the nurture, so what if they don't have any cards with a distinct master/pet relationship yet. We know pretty much nothing about the vennen, they will be explored more in a future set. but your interpretation is ridiculous. If that's how it turns out to be I will lose a great deal of faith in loregoyle =/

Loregoyle
05-30-2014, 02:35 PM
Xentoth lays the eggs that the vennen emerge from. She does not convert orcs into vennen.

When the vennen manage to capture orcs, they are usually consigned into slavery, used as incubators for spider spawn, or just eaten by Xentoth herself. She has developed a rather tasty orc casserole with cheese and mushrooms.

The spiders typically seen with vennen are pets, and reproduce the way any spider does. Sorry for any confusion on that point. There are so few vennen in the game right now, we won't really do a deep dive on them until set 3.

No female vennen have ever been seen by the surface races. But does that necessarily mean they don't exist?

NoahBuddy
05-30-2014, 07:58 PM
No female vennen have ever been seen by the surface races. But does that necessarily mean they don't exist?

thanks for this loregoyle. i'm really hoping for female vennen.

Omegahugger
06-01-2014, 06:19 AM
... Future Legendary Artifact: "Xentoth Orc Casserole" has totally been confirmed.


More on topic, it does make sense to me that Xentoth made the Vennen all male. Male spiders are smaller and weaker than female and are often eaten when they're of no more use to her.

I would be highly surprised if this was a deliberate move on Xentoth's part to show them how the hierachy worked.

Ssysyl
11-20-2014, 12:10 PM
EL senor chang have a thing to say about dwarf and vennen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXw6znXPfy4

(I don't wont to offense nobody, it's just for lol.)


Anyway it look sarcastic to me that dwarf are "artificial" as they robot creation. make me to think who really is the creator and who the creation.

DocX
11-21-2014, 06:05 AM
Too many times a writer will come up with a vision, something compelling and have it completely buried under the weight of social pressure to conform to PC values. then inevitably a round of changes tramples the original work by introducing random nonsense characters to represent the PC demands, and even worse.. well written villans and their acts become watered down, and ultimately lose what is most valuable to an antagonist..the ability to stir the very motivations of the protagonists to arrive at a conflict.

Actually, this happens very rarely (as a listener to several podcasts talking to writers and having this discussed from time to time). More often, people simply notice more often when characters divert from the default (which is "White, Male, Heterosexual") because it challenges expectations.

And, as a white, male, heterosexual, I believe there should be more diverse representation in works of fiction. When someone says "Yeah, there can be objects inhabiting dead bodies, flying dragons and magic . . . but we can't have black folk because that's to unbelievable. . . and we can't have women warriors because that's too unbelievable. . . and we can't have gay folks in fantasy because that's too unbelievable" then I think that's an issue.

Also, I don't think this is intentional on anyone's part in the world of Hex. It's just easier to go with the default background stereotypes than to change and add in representation of non-default characters and roles. It'd be nice if there were *more* representation of non-default character types/roles.

DocX
11-21-2014, 10:05 AM
EL senor chang have a thing to say about dwarf and vennen.

video embed removed

(I don't wont to offense nobody, it's just for lol.)

Quoting a homophobic scene from Community (even if it's become an Internet meme) doesn't make it less offensive. Nor does it make it funny.

Ssysyl
11-21-2014, 12:01 PM
Quoting a homophobic scene from Community (even if it's become an Internet meme) doesn't make it less offensive. Nor does it make it funny.

i repeat, it's just for laughing, because if we can't laugh, we are stop to live. :-)

DocX
11-21-2014, 05:49 PM
i repeat, it's just for laughing, because if we can't laugh, we are stop to live. :-)

And I'll repeat, it wasn't funny. It was homophobic and has no place on these forums per the Code of Conduct: http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Sexual%20Orientation

Please stop.

Trothael
11-21-2014, 06:54 PM
And I'll repeat, it wasn't funny. It was homophobic and has no place on these forums per the Code of Conduct: http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Sexual%20Orientation

Please stop.

+1
There's no need to make light of anyone for any reason, even if it's "just for a laugh".

Zomnivore
11-22-2014, 08:12 PM
I think its simple.

You're framing it wrong.

Vennen care about the brood mother and totally are all about that. Dwarves are probably asexual if they come out of the ground. I don't quite remember how they formed.

They also want to destroy the world and are sort of partially a lampoon on some action-heroy villains and other machismo.

The Necrotic also being alien could be a new-agey way of saying nonbinding gender roles or some hooplah.

Honestly I don't think its a problem. I think that gender roles in a fantasy game shouldn't even have an expectation of being equitable, or that all parts of the game should have the same standards for equality.

Its just insane to put that filter on a game / fantasy world's reality. Let alone one that isn't even past the establishing shots of who's what, and what they're about.

WolfCrypt
11-26-2014, 11:25 AM
I think that Shin'Hare totally can care less who the hell is the strongest as long as their the strongest. I'm sure Ezume will do everything in her power to become Grand Elder Ezume. Who knows? Their may be queens just their doing their best to make sure their current leader doesn't die. Also about there being only Concu-bunnies I believe the Shin'Hare starter deck comes with a female archer. Also some of the art of Shin'Hare cards show some badass non concubine females.

About the dwarves never carving females given what I read about Dwarves they can care less about anything that doesn't directly adere to mass mayhem. What good would making a girl do to a race that have one goal in life? Mass destruction I see females being pointless to create for dwarves as they serve no point.

Lockon
11-29-2014, 12:07 AM
Agree with you on the Dwarves, if you don't reproduce sexually and don't have the need to nurture young, the female form has no advantages compared to the male, thus is pointless.

Although, the Humans having what seems to be a decent amount of warrior woman, esp. in positions of some rank(Sword Trainer for example. A drill sergeant is still a sergeant.) show that their armies don't really give a hoot about what sex their soldiers are.

DocX
11-29-2014, 07:19 AM
Honestly I don't think its a problem. I think that gender roles in a fantasy game shouldn't even have an expectation of being equitable, or that all parts of the game should have the same standards for equality.

<sarcasm>Sure. They're not equitable in the real world, why should we expect fictional worlds to have any equality?</sarcasm>


Its just insane to put that filter on a game / fantasy world's reality. Let alone one that isn't even past the establishing shots of who's what, and what they're about.

Representation matters. If you're fine with Hex catering primarily (almost exclusively) to white dudes, then this isn't going to matter to you. Personally, I'd like to see more women and more people of color (because if we can have a whole race with green skin, seems like we could have more than Ruby Enchantress and one of the Noble Citizenry with brown skin) represented on cards.

Of the Champions with identifiable genders, Poca, Lady Elizabeth (and possibly One Eye Open, but I'm not positive) are women. All the Dwarfs are men, Necrotic take on the gender of their host (which are all dudes), the only Vennen is male, two (maybe three) of the Coyotle are men, Polonius is a guy and two of three of Orcs and Humans are guys.

Again, if you don't care about the people you play being primarily white dudes, this is fine. Personally I'd like to expand the player base out a bit. More women. More people of color. Given CZE's general menschy-ness in the past, I would hope they would take this constructive criticism to heart. They're going to get the traditional TCG market anyway with the game mechanics. If they really want to broaden the base, in my opinion putting a broader set of faces on cards is a good place to start.

Lockon
11-29-2014, 07:33 AM
Or you can stop shoving those persimmons in the wrong hole and CHILL. Let it happen on it's own, rather than forcing it. Trust me, forcing it only creates annoying she-bitches that no one likes, creator or audience, because the creator was forced rather than inspired.

DocX
11-29-2014, 07:01 PM
Or you can stop shoving those persimmons in the wrong hole and CHILL. Let it happen on it's own, rather than forcing it.

I don't think I've been excitable, though I know it can happen from time to time. I also don't think I'm forcing anything. I'm pointing out the lack of women and non-white humans that we've been shown so far living on Entrath. I've also said I'd like to see more diversity. I'd like to think voicing my opinion is not "forcing it".

I'm hopeful the lack of diversity thus far was simply an oversight given the makeup of folks at Hex who've been making the lore so far (which, based on all the pictures of Hex folks posted so far, are all white dudes). I haven't had a chance to read "The Accidental Knight" so far due to end of semester craziness, but I'm looking forward to seeing Christie Golden's contribution to the lore.


Trust me, forcing it only creates annoying she-bitches that no one likes, creator or audience, because the creator was forced rather than inspired.

I don't think Uhura on the original Star Trek was an annoying she-bitch. I don't think Ripley from Alien was an annoying she-bitch. I don't think Starbuck from the new BSG was an annoying she-bitch. I think all three were strong women in positions of authority (command officer), women with amazing capability (surviving several encounters with xenomorphs where many others died through ingenuity and composure), and women at the height of their field (the best fighter pilot in the fleet). All three are examples of female characters who were originally intended to be men (or, in the case of Starbuck, was actually a man in the original incarnation).

I agree that sometimes meddling by outside forces (licensors, executives, etc) often tends to dilute and harm creative endeavors. I think artistic criticism and critiquing, however, is fair game and can serve to make a creator (or creators) aware of oversights they might not have previously known about. The lore and stories behind the game are a form of artistic expression and subject to criticism and critiquing based on that; they're writers just like novelists, comic writers, screenwriters, playwrights, etc. Just because fans of the game (or genre in general) may feel uncomfortable with the critique does not mean it's inappropriate. It's par for the course for any creative endeavor.

I'd also like to think Loregoyle, Cory Jones and anyone else involved in the world building of Entrath are confident enough to take the criticism in the constructive nature it's intended.

WolfCrypt
11-29-2014, 08:04 PM
I personally think that having every ethinicity and both genders in equal roles or even including them isn't needed I mean.. Just cuz something is mostly a male thing doesn't mean women can like them. I think anyone who sees not seeing their race in a certain media then 'their racist for not including' is extreme. I know that's not exactly what your saying but I feel its a heated argument race/gender equality and just because something doesn't include that in a 50/50 ratio doesn't make them races just there is no point in including them.

Gwaer
11-30-2014, 12:42 AM
A lot of it was probably art direction. They asked for properly armored women. Not "fantasy armored" women. I imagine they didn't specify race at all. Asking for nothing specific there most people think authorians, which where predominantly white. That's what we got. I'm certain that it will even out, and we'll get more diversity as time goes on.

Frost3
11-30-2014, 05:33 AM
<sarcasm>Sure. They're not equitable in the real world, why should we expect fictional worlds to have any equality?</sarcasm>



Representation matters. If you're fine with Hex catering primarily (almost exclusively) to white dudes, then this isn't going to matter to you. Personally, I'd like to see more women and more people of color (because if we can have a whole race with green skin, seems like we could have more than Ruby Enchantress and one of the Noble Citizenry with brown skin) represented on cards.

Of the Champions with identifiable genders, Poca, Lady Elizabeth (and possibly One Eye Open, but I'm not positive) are women. All the Dwarfs are men, Necrotic take on the gender of their host (which are all dudes), the only Vennen is male, two (maybe three) of the Coyotle are men, Polonius is a guy and two of three of Orcs and Humans are guys.

Again, if you don't care about the people you play being primarily white dudes, this is fine. Personally I'd like to expand the player base out a bit. More women. More people of color. Given CZE's general menschy-ness in the past, I would hope they would take this constructive criticism to heart. They're going to get the traditional TCG market anyway with the game mechanics. If they really want to broaden the base, in my opinion putting a broader set of faces on cards is a good place to start.

Greetings DocX. I was hoping you wouldn't mind if i had a bit of civil discourse with your comments. I specifically would like to point out a few flaws in your statistics.

You indicate a lack of "Color" and "Women" in the set. And then you indicate two cards that show these characteristics, as if they are the only ones. This may be an intended exaggeration to make a point, however i will take it as literal for the basis of what follows.

Women of Entrath Set one.

Human Female

1. Princess Victoria
2. Ruby Pyromancer
3. Sword Trainer
4. Spearcliff Cloud Knight
5. Phoenix Guard Trainer
6. Noble Citizenry
7. Ruby Enchantress
8. Cerulean Mentalist

7/40 cards are definitively female. One card as you pointed out, has a woman in it, flanked by two men. A few more are wearing so much armor, or turned in such a way that they are ambiguous to me.

Elves

1. Ambershire Instigator
2. Wild Child
3. Briarpatch Conjuror

3/6 cards are female

Coyotal

1. Wind Whisperer
2. Stargazer

2/10 cards are female. Clear Sky Stormcaller might be, i can't tell.

Orcs

1. Goreseeker
2. Te'Talca
3. Darkspire Enforcerer
4. Veteran Gladiator (Regular Art)
5. Mazat Ranger
6. Darkspire Priestess

6/20 cards are female.

19/76 troop cards on the ardent are female, or have a woman of prominence displayed. 25%

Note all stats are hand counted by me, and only include troops. Not just other kinds of art.

You also mention that all necrotics are dudes.

Necrotic

Lixil
Windbourne Acolyte

2/9 necrotic troops are female.

Also Nin is a necrotic champion, and is female.

The second part was people of "Color" in the human nation.

This one is a little trickier. You use this in contrast with "White Dudes" So i take this to mean non white dudes.

1. Ascetic Aspirant
2. Noble Citizenry
3. Ruby Enchantress

These three are distinctly note white. Only one went unaccounted for among them.

4. Lord Benjamin
5. Frost Wizard
6. Buccaneer

These three could be argued as not being white. Ben has dusky skin. The frost wizard appears somewhat Egyptian in garb, and gives me the (possible false) sense of being not white. The Buccaneer appears to be Spanish (Spain), which while European is not necessarily white.

Again i have to point out that some of them are so armored you can't tell.

In conclusion. Their is always room for a more equal spot light to be shed on sex, ethnicity and creed. But human's are trained to recognize patterns, and often use these to create biased notions on what actually exists.

When we look at the stats, if they are accurate, we can see that many women exist inentrath through out all the races (that have two sexes) and while their could always be more, they are in no way second class, or taking a backseat to the men. (In my opinion)

However your concerns of ethnic diversity based on skin color, is something to consider. On the one hand, i think that perhaps "White Dude" may be a bit narrow, and ignores ethnicity that might at first seem similar, but are distinct On the other hand, it is obvious, that those who stand out among the humans as being ethnic, are a small proportion of the over all 'population.' and will hopefully grow with time.

I would also like to point out that when i started this reply, i was of the preconceived notion that you were in error. While i may be correct that exaggeration has occurred, i don't believe your point was unfounded.

I do believe that Hex has this all in mind. If they didn't i am sure they do now. I hope that you find my observation useful, and in no way offensive.

DocX
11-30-2014, 06:49 AM
I personally think that having every ethinicity and both genders in equal roles or even including them isn't needed I mean.. Just cuz something is mostly a male thing doesn't mean women can like them. I think anyone who sees not seeing their race in a certain media then 'their racist for not including' is extreme. I know that's not exactly what your saying but I feel its a heated argument race/gender equality and just because something doesn't include that in a 50/50 ratio doesn't make them races just there is no point in including them.

I don't think I ever said 50/50 women and men or all ethnicities should be shown in equal numbers everywhere. I also don't think I've called any of the Hex folks 'racist'. I have said representation matters, that I think there's a lack of representation in Set 1 and that I hope if this is brought to the attention of the folks at HexEnt that this will be addressed in future sets (and if I haven't said that explicitly before, I'm saying it now).


A lot of it was probably art direction. They asked for properly armored women. Not "fantasy armored" women. I imagine they didn't specify race at all. Asking for nothing specific there most people think authorians, which where predominantly white. That's what we got. I'm certain that it will even out, and we'll get more diversity as time goes on.

Agreed. When unspecified, the stereotype for fantasy warrior is "white dude". I will take this space to applaud the choice of making Sword Trainer female which is definitely going against convention. And I hope you are correct that as time goes on (and specific art direction is given to go against the stereotypical choices) we will get more diversity.


Greetings DocX. I was hoping you wouldn't mind if i had a bit of civil discourse with your comments. I specifically would like to point out a few flaws in your statistics.

Awesome. I wanted to do a deep dive into the art, but found myself with a lack of time. I appreciate you doing this.

As far as female representation, your numbers are 17% for Humans, 30% Orc, 20% Coyotle, 50% Elf and 25% for Ardent overall (based on Troops). When I was looking I'd focused solely on Humans (as I was also looking for ethnicity) so my idea was pretty skewed based on this. A quarter of troops being female is a good proportion.


You also mention that all necrotics are dudes.

Yeah. I was completely wrong on this and don't know why I said it.


Also Nin is a necrotic champion, and is female.

Do you have a source for this? In the picture, Nin looks male to me.


The second part was people of "Color" in the human nation.

This one is a little trickier. You use this in contrast with "White Dudes" So i take this to mean non white dudes.

1. Ascetic Aspirant
2. Noble Citizenry
3. Ruby Enchantress

These three are distinctly note white. Only one went unaccounted for among them.

4. Lord Benjamin
5. Frost Wizard
6. Buccaneer

These three could be argued as not being white. Ben has dusky skin. The frost wizard appears somewhat Egyptian in garb, and gives me the (possible false) sense of being not white. The Buccaneer appears to be Spanish (Spain), which while European is not necessarily white.

Again i have to point out that some of them are so armored you can't tell.

I didn't include the others as they appeared to have other environmental effects in the picture (Lord Benjamin, Frost Wizard) or their ethnicity was ambiguous (Aspirant and Buccaneer). The Buccaneer's skin is olive evoking an ethnicity similar to something from the Mediterranean, but in the absence of some clarification in the lore, I'd categorize him in the "white" camp. Maybe not pure Anglo, but definitely white.


I would also like to point out that when i started this reply, i was of the preconceived notion that you were in error. While i may be correct that exaggeration has occurred, i don't believe your point was unfounded.

I do believe that Hex has this all in mind. If they didn't i am sure they do now. I hope that you find my observation useful, and in no way offensive.

Thank you very much for the data and the post. It was very useful, not offensive at all, and (IMO) contributed quite a bit to the conversation.

And I agree that, if the folks at Hex weren't aware of this previously, they are now. Also, I imagine since Set 2 is about to be released and most of the Set 3 art is likely in the can, it'll be a bit before we see if this conversation had any change on future set art. I want to think my expectations are reasonable and look forward to Set 4's art to see what, if any, effect this conversation has had.

Frost3
12-01-2014, 01:25 AM
Source for Nin's sex was my eyes, so i may be wrong about that. We can shove them into the ambiguous section. =)

Ssysyl
12-05-2014, 01:04 PM
Source for Nin's sex was my eyes, so i may be wrong about that. We can shove them into the ambiguous section. =)

I hope loregoyle or other autorized staff can reveal this enigma. XD