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poizonous
08-07-2013, 05:06 PM
Quick question me and my friend were wondering. When the Witch gives a 2/2 -2/-2 does it remain in the hand as a 0/0? Or does it die and get sent to graveyard?

Example - Shadowgrove Witch targets Eurig. While there are 4 artifacts on the field. Does Eurig die immediately or can the opponent play him and let him get buffed?

funktion
08-07-2013, 10:14 PM
The example you're using is actually a second question, which has to do with layering, one which we won't have an answer to until we have an official rules.

To answer your first question though, yes it still goes to your hand.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-08-2013, 03:06 AM
The precedent in other, similar games indicates that it'll likely stay in your hand. For example, a card like Protean Hydra in Magic: the Gathering (the game with the most in common with Hex) is never a 0/0, except when it's on the battlefield.

As for whether or not the pump will be able to be applied after it enters the battlefield? Again, using Magic as a reference, it will. If a creature on the battlefield is initially -2/-2, but it has a constant ability that provides +4/+4, then it'll stick around as a 2/2.

Eierdotter
08-08-2013, 05:38 AM
i am pretty shure it stays in your hand.
how inspire or other "buffs" affect a creature with 0 defence when it is summoned are questions i hope will get answered with a detailed rule book.

http://www.hex-datamine.com/cards/Zombie-Plague/59
Zombie Plague has sort of the same ability like the witch
and it tells in detail what to do if a creature reaches 0 defence through the Zombie Plague.
If a troop gets send to the graveyard(no matter if it is in your hand in play or in teh library) when it has 0 defence, Zombie Plague's text would be like "... instead of putting it into its owners graveyard, revert it into a zombie ...". But it does not so it would normaly stay in the library as a dead draw.

New question with Mortar Strike
deals 3 damage to the top 3 cards...
i think the troops hit by it get 3 damage and a troop with less than 4 healt h would die when summoned.
and at end of turn only troops that are in play get healed. so this works like a -0/-3 until the troop enters play.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-08-2013, 08:08 AM
i am pretty shure it stays in your hand.
how inspire or other "buffs" affect a creature with 0 defence when it is summoned are questions i hope will get answered with a detailed rule book.
If it works like Magic, it will die when it enters the battlefield. Using Magic rules, the inspire abilities are triggered abilities, that have to go on the stack (I believe Hex uses the term 'chain' instead of stack), and has to wait to resolve. In Magic, 'state based actions' are checked at this time, and a creature with 0 toughness/defense goes to the graveyard. I imagine the similar will apply to Hex, and this is how 0 defense troops will die.

As for Mortar Strike, the most recent iteration of it I've seen tells the player to bury any troops in the top 3 cards of their deck.

955

Grissnap
08-09-2013, 12:18 AM
If it works like Magic, it will die when it enters the battlefield.



Jax, the wording they use in most of their cards is very similar to WoW TCG, so I feel pretty confident in my answer below:

Inspire triggers use the wording, "As ... enters play" rather than "When ... enters play". The timing of these two wordings are different, "As" indicates that this triggers while on the chain before it enters play, and "When" indicates this triggers after it enters play. So whatever stat boosts etc are applied to the troop before it enters play, so if a Kraken Guard mariner were to boost a troop to positive health then it would stay in play.

A 0 health troop could also potentially stay in play if there were a continuous modifier in effect that provided health. For example if you play a Shin'hare troop with 0/0 but have a Bucktooth Commander in play to provide it with +1/+1.

Edit: While not very clear in his wording for someone not familiar with WoW TCG wording, BenStoll said essentially the same thing in his forum Q&A here: http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26745&p=280914#post280914

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-09-2013, 02:13 AM
I've never played the WoW TCG, but I do know their wording is also very similar to Magic, to the point that I've been able to interpret all their rules from a Magic sense - but I guess there are no definite answers either way until the game or rules come out. :-3

Icepick
08-09-2013, 03:34 AM
As for Mortar Strike, the most recent iteration of it I've seen tells the player to bury any troops in the top 3 cards of their deck.

955

Interesting, I didn't realise they had changed that! Where did you see that?

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-09-2013, 03:51 AM
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/ :-)

Icepick
08-09-2013, 05:19 AM
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/ :-)

Hmm, I wonder where they got that version of the card from, I don't remember seeing it pop up anywhere. I really wish these sites would link their sources :|
Thanks!

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-09-2013, 05:41 AM
Actually, I'm quite curious where people got the equipment info for Master Theorycrafter and Sliver of the Immortal Spear from; I don't think I ever saw it pop up on the official site anywhere.

Icepick
08-09-2013, 06:44 AM
Master Theorycrafter is here - http://hextcg.com/dwarven-drafting/
I'm sure I've seen the Spear gear somewhere, but yeah, I don't remember where and a cursory search doesn't bring it up.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-09-2013, 07:26 AM
Haha, thanks, I guess I just overlooked the trinket when I started deckbuilding back in ~May.

As for the sliver, I don't remember the card being an actual 'preview' - I believe someone was just talking about it in an article, and had a customized image of it (complete with nuke to represent it going off and doing 5k damage :-P). I've seen the gear on a few of the DBs, but I don't know where they got it from.

KiraForce
08-09-2013, 07:53 AM
I figure the second question is a stack question. Just like you can play Murder to kill a card as it enters play (MtG Murder, not HEX), I assume you'll be able to do the same for this, meaning I think the stacks are essentially the same. Using what we know about Magic's stack, it SHOULD work out so it can be played without dying.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-09-2013, 08:46 AM
Hmm? You can't use Murder in MTG to kill a creature 'as it enters play' (which I assume you mean they've cast it but it hasn't resolved yet) - if it's a creature on the battlefield, you can cast Murder targetting it; if it's a creature spell on the stack, it's not a legal target for Murder. In either case, Murdering the creature doesn't stop any triggered abilities from resolving.

But as for constant a creature with +x/+x and -x/-x modifiers entering the battlefield and seeing if it'll survive, in Magic there's a system for working out the power and toughness of a creature called 'layers' - it doesn't use the stack, and goes through a series of layers when working out what the final power and toughness of a creature will be. In the case of a -2/-2 from the Witch and a +2/+2 from artifacts, they'd effectively cancel each other out as they're applied in the same layer.

For completeness sake, this is the entry in the comprehensive rules on layers:

613. Interaction of Continuous Effects
613.1. The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:
613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.2. Within layers 1–6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, “Counters.”
613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature’s power.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. A new effect gives the creature +5/+0. Its “unswitched” power and toughness would be 6/4, so its actual power and toughness is 4/6.
Example: A 1/3 creature is given +0/+1 by an effect. Then another effect switches the creature’s power and toughness. Its new power and toughness is 4/1. If the +0/+1 effect ends before the switch effect ends, the creature becomes 3/1.
613.4. The application of continuous effects as described by the layer system is continually and automatically performed by the game. All resulting changes to an object’s characteristics are instantaneous.
Example: Honor of the Pure is an enchantment that reads “White creatures you control get +1/+1.” Honor of the Pure and a 2/2 black creature are on the battlefield under your control. If an effect then turns the creature white (layer 5), it gets +1/+1 from Honor of the Pure (layer 7c), becoming 3/3. If the creature’s color is later changed to red (layer 5), Honor of the Pure’s effect stops applying to it, and it will return to being 2/2.
Example: Gray Ogre, a 2/2 creature, is on the battlefield. An effect puts a +1/+1 counter on it (layer 7d), making it 3/3. A spell targeting it that says “Target creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn” resolves (layer 7c), making it 7/7. An enchantment that says “Creatures you control get +0/+2” enters the battlefield (layer 7c), making it 7/9. An effect that says “Target creature becomes 0/1 until end of turn” is applied to it (layer 7b), making it 5/8 (0/1, with +4/+4 from the resolved spell, +0/+2 from the enchantment, and +1/+1 from the counter).

Deathfog
08-19-2013, 11:43 AM
Auras or other effects that give additional +X/X to creatures on the field would more likely than not keep a card with base 0 health alive on summoning, there is too much precedent in MtG for this to likely be changed. Inspire is something new, so its up to Crypto as to how it works mechanically.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-19-2013, 12:52 PM
Well inspire is pretty much just a triggered ability in Magic with the way its worded now (and Twitch streams indicate it functions as such), so inspire triggers almost surely won't save a 0 defense troop.

teasel
08-19-2013, 01:12 PM
http://hex.tcgbrowser.com/ :-)

ehy jaxson,i love your deckbuilder and use it but i noticed some card like chargebot which are on the wiki are missing...

can you go and add them?

EDIT: uh weird it's there now

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-19-2013, 01:43 PM
ehy jaxson,i love your deckbuilder and use it but i noticed some card like chargebot which are on the wiki are missing...

can you go and add them?

EDIT: uh weird it's there now
It's not my deckbuilder. Just one of the various sites out there. ^^'