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View Full Version : Keep Raids: How Do You Envision It?



Stok3d
08-07-2013, 06:24 PM
Some good ideas in another thread that deserve it's own topic. Feel free to carry on conversation detailing out the below or working off other idea regarding Keeps.


I like the ideas you threw out on the keep AbandonAllHope. This sparked me to build on it a bit and review the keep defense. Seems we could possibly pay a daily salary for extra defense by the way of archers, ppl to man catapults, etc. Effectively, this could mean the first person coming in to the keep could focus target these extra defenses that provide either dmg per turn or troops in play from the start. Having these defenses (or lack there of after defense defeat) could make some keep breaches most effective in waves.

Essentially, Attacker 1 (A1) targets the Archers defeats them and eventually dies. A2 targets the Ballistas and eventually dies. This could leave us with A3 coming in with just here to combat the keep deck without added annoyance from the secondary gold paid defenses. I'm actually quite fond of needing to coordinate an approach toward attacking Keeps...

All the while, someone in the guild watching the keep or monitoring the in game channel /keep could pay to re-enlist more defenses and attempt to spoil the attackers plans. Gold could be spent fast this way and I have to admit I'm getting a little excited just thinking about this playing out as I'm typing...



@Vibraxus: I almost forgot about MUDDs. I played one in the mid 90s and was great. I'm a fan of stealing something for bregging rights and being able to put it on display.


Here are some of my ideas as I posted in this thread with some added in, http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24686&page=3

1. Archers that reduce your opponent's life by 1 each turn
2. Banners to permabuff all troops
3. Reduced casting cost
4. Storage facility with free resources/thresholds
5. Start with some constants or defending troops in play
6. Healer heals defending champion every turn
7. Resident wizard that gives a random buff or casts an offensive spell every turn
8. Portcullis which an attacker has to destroy before they can damage defending troops/champion
9. Moat which limits number of attackers per turn
10. Faction support/reinforcements if you have high enough reputation
11. Mines that randomly damage an attacking troop after some conditions are met ( > X attackers )
12. Nets that are randomly thrown on an enemy troop to prevent them from attacking or blocking
13. Ground traps that exhaust a random attacking troop for 2 turns.
14. Ballistae or catapults that do massive damage to a random troop after some conditions are met

While reviewing an older thread I made on Keeps, I came across a post that could prove worthwhile for some defense boostes that could be paid in gold. It also may be interesting to be able to only have say 3x active at any one time making choices more strategy based:








As for the stealing of unique equipment, it does shift the focus of gold to equipment, so that would be nice. But I assume thats only the case when there is such a thing to steal, or is it visible which guild has what to steal? Like spending money to spy on a guild.

OMG That's Brilliant. Basically that one artifact allows viewability to the holder of that Keeps defense and deck. A Keep Crystal Ball in essence. Obviously, people would fight hard to get that back. I'm going to move this to a "Keep Topic".




Should also have the option to just reforge the item, so if you can't get it back you're not permanently at a disadvantage, which could be a gold sink! look at me bringing it back around to on topic.

Once you reforge your artifact I think the old one should disappear immediately. Basically part of the reforging is calling the power back from your artifact, since there can only be one for each guild. If you raid their keep and have reforged your artifact you should end up with theirs, if they have one in keep, or someone elses if they're holding onto one, which you could give back to the rightful owners or sell it or keep it to attack them. If they have no artifacts you end up with whatever other reward you would get and no artifacts.


Noteworthy Prior Threads on Keeps
Defend Your Keep *Hash Out Ideas* (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?p=238186)
Keep Defense - Set an Entry Fee and Prizes (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24686)
Keep Defense - Lets Add Some Lore (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=24755)

MoikPEI
08-07-2013, 06:31 PM
I would prefer it be something like World versus World versus World in Guild Wars 2. I find it too personal to have my own guild/castle/nation raided, it can feel really frustrating. It could alienate people who come for the PvE. It may be better if similarly ranked guilds fought over an otherwise unmarked field of shards, with guilds getting points for the amount of the area they control, and then getting some light PvE bonuses based on the results. WvWvW has a lot of sinks in the form of zone-specific siege weapons. All the listed options above would continue to be relevant.

zadies
08-07-2013, 06:32 PM
I'd think it would be interesting if upgrading the keep would consume rare troop cards to get some of the more interesting boosts to give cards something to do other then be in the deck but actually consume say 20 Archmage Wrenlocke to get a permanent cost reduction on forts side on actions that won't stack with one of him actually being in play.

keldrin
08-07-2013, 09:07 PM
I envision a huge gold sink, that will devour every gold piece i can gain through drops and loot sales.

And I like the idea of being able to setup a guild keep to defend like a raid, against 3 opponents. Giving guild keeps pluses (generally at a cost) to protect itself, kind of like a raid boss. And individually owned keeps, to defend against just one opponent.

ShadowTycho
08-07-2013, 11:13 PM
I see the guild keep being set up like the dungeon we saw, where you have to work your way through a map of challenges, guilds could upgrade their keeps to add more locations and things.
Each location would be a challenge in itself and would provide a buff to attacking the main keep if not defeated.
So using the suggestions above you would have a keep have 15 maximum locations. some would provide buffs to other locations(but not all of them) as decided by the keep holders.
This way you have a whole shuffling around of forces and variation between the keeps that would involve strategy to overcome. not sure how you would make it involve more the one player, but i'm sure there is a interesting and engaging way to make it so three people had to work in concert.

i would also have the final center keep be guarded by a raid boss style encounter, I am not sure how this would be set up exactly, raid bosses need special cards and conditions to make the 3v1 a difficult fight. i am sure that crypto could manage this and make ti customizable and interesting in some way.

keldrin
08-07-2013, 11:23 PM
Well, it could be 3 AI protecting.
Which if wanted, each post could be maned by a real life person from the guild.

Unhurtable
08-08-2013, 02:09 AM
I would prefer it be something like World versus World versus World in Guild Wars 2. I find it too personal to have my own guild/castle/nation raided, it can feel really frustrating. It could alienate people who come for the PvE. It may be better if similarly ranked guilds fought over an otherwise unmarked field of shards, with guilds getting points for the amount of the area they control, and then getting some light PvE bonuses based on the results. WvWvW has a lot of sinks in the form of zone-specific siege weapons. All the listed options above would continue to be relevant.

How does it alienate people who come for the PvE? Keeps are not mandatory, they are an extra side of gameplay, as far as I know.



What does Keep Raids entail? How is it different from Keep Defence? Is it just multiple people attacking the same Keep at the same time?

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-08-2013, 02:23 AM
I will say that whatever they do with keep defense/raids, they need to include raid style defense mechanisms to protect against combo. Otherwise, the attacker is always going to have the advantage (unless the AI is so good that it can recognise the machinations of a combo deck and pull one off itself).

Arbiter
08-08-2013, 03:16 AM
This seems to suggest that this is a feature planned for the game already. The Keep Defense that was announced is account based not guild based. Now if you want to expand it to a guild based feature that's fine, but the original post summary should state this. At the moment it is hard to tell if it is a misinterpretation of the Keep Defense feature or a request for an extended multi-player one.

Icepick
08-08-2013, 03:42 AM
I think it's worth mentioning how it currently *actually* works based on what we know so far - as Arbiter says, it's not clear if you're asking for entirely new features or modifications to what we know is already there.

So, from what we know so far, you create 3 decks that will be your Keep Defence decks, and anyone attacking your keep will need to defeat all 3 decks in order to win. As far as we know there's no group team play or manual defence here, so it will be 1 person fighting an AI using your decks, one after the other. The incentive for attacking keeps is that you get to loot their "treasure", which is set by the keep owner. Presumably this is opt in - if you don't put any treasure in your keep, there is no incentive to attack it so if you don't want to have your keep raided, simply not setting a reward should accomplish that (though this hasn't been confirmed either way as far as I know.)
The owner of the keep is able to set a "fee" that attackers must play before they get their shot. A portion of this fee goes into the keep, further increasing the size of the treasure, and a portion of it goes directly to the keep owner - this is the incentive for the defending player.

I think that's how keeps currently work as we understand them - feel free to correct me if I've got anything wrong, or missed out some details.

Arbiter
08-08-2013, 04:17 AM
That's pretty much my understanding. I sort of view it as analagous to player designed dungeons/content in other games, with the ability to ante up a prize and set an entry fee to entice people to play and maybe spin a profit.

Kamino72
08-08-2013, 05:52 AM
Keep Defense will not be a core feature for the Hex launch. It will remain simple for a while.

But I think it could become a stong piece of gameplay, equal to PvP and PvE (PvK ?). People love to build and manage their home (or catle or keep).

Personal Keep = Dungeon by Player X ?
Guild's Keep = Raid by Guild Z ?

It would be amazing if players would be allowed to design their keep as complex as Crypto's dungeons.


I see the guild keep being set up like the dungeon we saw, where you have to work your way through a map of challenges, guilds could upgrade their keeps to add more locations and things.
Each location would be a challenge in itself and would provide a buff to attacking the main keep if not defeated.
So using the suggestions above you would have a keep have 15 maximum locations. some would provide buffs to other locations(but not all of them) as decided by the keep holders.
This way you have a whole shuffling around of forces and variation between the keeps that would involve strategy to overcome. not sure how you would make it involve more the one player, but i'm sure there is a interesting and engaging way to make it so three people had to work in concert.

i would also have the final center keep be guarded by a raid boss style encounter, I am not sure how this would be set up exactly, raid bosses need special cards and conditions to make the 3v1 a difficult fight. i am sure that crypto could manage this and make ti customizable and interesting in some way.

This.

I imagine modular tiles ( la Carcassonne) :
- collectible (4 rarities)
- representing a room
- with 1 to 4 doors/paths
- with 1 to 3 slots for collectible equipment (i.e altar slot) giving defensive bonus
- with 0 to 1 guardian slot (guardians could be collectible "defensive mercenary")
- with 0 to 1 treasure slot (collectible chests/... ?^^)
- maybe bound to specific shard(s) ?

I imagine we could start with a simple keep (3 common tiles, at least 1 treasure room) and we can grow it with gold/xp/popularity/sacrifice/whatever.

Maybe treasures we put in our keep could give us a PvE bonus in some way. But the drawback would be other players would try to loot those treasures.

Or rewards could be provided by a mix of popularity and difficulty of the keep. Incentive to create the best experience.

I feel like Christopher Columbus discovering a new continent. :p

K.

Sholynyk
08-08-2013, 10:40 AM
I completely support this whole idea, Being able to customize a keep however I wanted would add a huge boost to my enjoyment and commitment to the game.

I posted a thread about a month ago regarding the idea of being able to put different defeatable area's in the keep which would hold specific bonus's for your boss deck. such as :
a crypt which would summon a 1/1 zombie each turn
a monolith which would extract 2 health from a random champion or unit and transfer it to the boss's health every turn/second turn.
a Magic rune which would prevent the attacker from regaining health between rounds until it is defeated. (healing magic not effected)

These could be created as a gold sink that as soon as they are defeated they need to be rebuilt / whenever your keep is successfully raided you need to pay to rebuild them. If it is also made to be just bought through gold it could also encourage plat to gold trading and help encourage the currency crossover.

Also, Modular tiles. great idea from person above me

loopholist3
08-08-2013, 11:14 AM
If you have to pay to repair part of your keep, it will be increasingly difficult for the defender balancing the cost for attacking the keep. And it might also introduce a level of micro-management that the average play doesn't want to deal with. But if you don't include those sort of items in your keep, then your keep will most likely fall easily because the game is balanced around the assumption that you could have those items. Basically, I am against any sort of paid upkeep on a keep. I believe the Hex will also be taking a portion of the keep entry fee. That portion of the entry fee should be the assumed 'repair' costs.

It will also put keeps managed by a single person, casual guilds, and guilds that decide to meet in person to have moments of weakness where they are offline due to sleep, work, or meeting their guild buddies that makes them unable to repair their keep.

Stok3d
08-08-2013, 11:25 AM
@loopholist3: You are correct, it's possible that those repair cost could spiral out of control. Also, who is to pay for these repairs exactly? WoW had some perks with guild that allowed for an additional percentage of whatever was looted to be auto deposited in the guild guild bank. They also had allowances for a certain amount of raid and dungeon guild only chieves to deposit weekly rewards.

This could potentially offset some of the upkeep costs for added defense.

malloc31
08-08-2013, 11:47 AM
I fail to see how having more things to pay for will make the game more fun. If they made items that buffed your keep either drop in PVE or in raiding other keeps I can see it (or you gain keep experience raiding other keeps till you gain a new bonus). Other wise i would prefer to only have to play X decks and gain a reward.

Kamino72
08-08-2013, 01:26 PM
I fail to see how having more things to pay for will make the game more fun.
The fun is to build a complex and challenging keep. And to defeat others. And to collect epic rooms, treasures, traps, rooms, guardians.

DrakarT
08-08-2013, 01:38 PM
So.. i Was thinking about some things that could be improved on Hex.. and about the Only-3-Player Raids, how could be gold used, what could be a boost to the Guild levels, how to improve Guild activity between other things...

well we could get a Guild keep that could be upgraded as we saw on the video of the trailer.. but instead of only getting an eye candy we could get something usefull like defensive gear and different rooms like a library, barracs, a main hall market, etc. so all this places get accesed to buy by leveling your guild and buying with gold and other buffs like guardians or extra spells that doesnt need mana.. just buy them (so you need Gold to improve your chances of surviving) so there will be several entrances and you need at least one team of 3 to defend them the guild leader will have a way to keep monitoring how is the stats of every room and the HP of the team on battle so if any room is losing one guy could ask another to move and help them, moving from a room to another would take time and a cooldown after doing itif a team is defeted the mob does damage to the room every period of time risking even losing an entire room and having to buy again after ending the event, if they lose their main hall the event is lost other wise you could get some treasure chests... so... to improve your chances you would need to have a really active raid/dungeons life or get boosters

This event could make a guild pretty active and improve the feeling of ownership of your guild
the Guild LEaders could even get a little boost with this..

as you could have many roos as your guild levels the people that doesnt get a room could get on the bench so when someone die you could go to support the other team.. if you die you could get a cooldown before entering again to the battle


so... how does it sound? did somebody thought/post something like this? :D

I just remembered the WoEs of Ragnarok and could be implemented a lil like this

keldrin
08-08-2013, 01:44 PM
On the housing for gold line of thought.
It would really be keep decorations for gold.
What I'm thinking is, if your keep goes so long without being taken, you have the option of buying another decoration. guild banners, wall texture upgrades. Upgrade to the keep main doors. etc.
If keep defense is in stages. Like they have to have a battle in a outside terrain, forrest, plains, moutain, ocean, etc. (terrain might be tied to race or faction). then the seige encounter. Outside the keep walls. Then maybe a encounter inside the keep walls, or even in the throne room.
anyways, each stage of the keep attack, could have purchasable upgrades in both functional and decorative options. The options could increase, the longer it is since the last time the keep was taken.
The timer, might be setup with the concept of having to buy a upgrade before the timer sets-up again to count down til next purchase. Now, in this line of thought, you would get a functional upgrade to help with keep defense , then the next available upgrade, would be decorative. You would have to get the decorative upgrade, in order to get the timer moving towards the next functional upgrade. I can see the idea that as you move forward, the cost of upgrades increases.
Then, when you get raided, you lose the top item, from your keep, and it is kept by the enemy as a trophy, til it is retrieved, or you rebuy it. (rebuying would have to wait for the timer to count down again)
The top most item would be some kind of cool decoration. It would be the most expensive item you bought, but, it would protect your most expensive functional upgrade. each upgrade could have more than one option for purchase.

Edit: this same post is also posted in the "gold sinks - what are your ideas?" thread, since it crosses both Subject areas.

malloc31
08-09-2013, 04:03 AM
The fun is to build a complex and challenging keep. And to defeat others. And to collect epic rooms, treasures, traps, rooms, guardians.

I agree with that but I think it is more fun to earn the "epic rooms, treasures, traps, rooms, guardians" by either random drops or defeating people X number of times then by needing to grind for (or pay real money for) money to use to buy the stuff.

Stok3d
08-09-2013, 05:55 AM
Aldazar stated some good ideas mixed into a longer post in another thread that I wanted to make sure was attached here.



A Guild keep which can be attacked/defended would be cool too... Rankings of best defended keeps, guilds who have conquered the most keeps, etc. would be awesome, along with some form of prize mechanic (at its simplest, if you get raided, you lose a certain amount of gold from your guild bank and the other guild gets it, all the way up to the possibility of having special guild vs guild equipment, cards, etc. up for grabs under certain circumstances...)

A cool related idea would be to have a competition (as in, guilds have to elect to enter it) where CZE creates a unique "treasure", gives it to a random guild, and whoever successfully defeats their keep takes over the "treasure", and so on and so forth... After a set period of time, whoever has held the "treasure" for the longest period of time wins the competition and maybe gets a prize! One of the interesting things about this would be that the holder of the "treasure" might not be public information - you'd have to figure it out, or just randomly attack guilds who entered the competition and hope to get lucky! I realize you guys will surely find some major issues with this idea, but hopefully they can be ironed out because the high level concept seems cool to me!

keldrin
08-09-2013, 06:05 AM
I agree with that but I think it is more fun to earn the "epic rooms, treasures, traps, rooms, guardians" by either random drops or defeating people X number of times then by needing to grind for (or pay real money for) money to use to buy the stuff.

Maybe so, but what you may not be aware of, is this thread is a branch off thread. The original thread the conversation started on, was called "Gold Sinks - What are your ideas?"
So, while your concept has merit, and makes sense. It does leave the original concept out. Which was on how to limit gold inflation by having more ways to spend excess gold, removing it from circulation.
Of course, a argument could be made, that there could be more than one way to earn keep content.

Stok3d
08-09-2013, 06:14 AM
I believe there have been some excellent ideas shared in this thread. I challenge everyone to think deeply on this topic as i'll I'll provide below a snippet from another topic (Defend Your Keep *Hash out Ideas* (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?p=238186)) that relays what I feel as a potential role for keep playing:


Defending the Guild Keep has the potential to become a vital part of the "End Game" that the PVE side so desperately needs. Basically, wth do you plan on doing once you've killed all the raid bosses? (yeah, I'm up for a Heroic Raid mode implementation too--that's another topic)

Kevin Jordan on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412300360) 1:00.40 - 1:02.10

Cory Jones on Keeps (http://www.twitch.tv/hextcg/b/412717902) 0:02.00 - 0:03.20

Kates
08-09-2013, 06:28 AM
All of this discussion has me very excited to give this a try. Though I'm peeing in my pants a little bit about the thought of my own Keep Defense.

I'm not sure how much of a physical space in game will be manifested by a keep, but what about a Hall of Records in each keep? I think we're all imagining castles and dungeons, etc. I envision a hall full of scrolls or tapestries detailing details of some of the battles fought. I assume there will be some tracking of statistics for each deck faced: number of times the deck has been beaten, time taken for it to be beaten, number of matches the deck won. There could be a hall of champions or more morbid/awesome a crypt for the fallen. None of the information would necessarily reveal too much information about a deck/decks.

I believe someone has already mentioned trophies, but I think it would be cool if you could have a talisman/totem from a defeated keep somehow decorating yours. I'm thinking something like Predator's collection of skulls/spinal cords. Too much?

d00dz
08-09-2013, 09:12 AM
I would love it if CZE implements a replay feature for Keep Defense similar to DOTA 2's replay features.

It is most likely that your Keep Defense decks will be played by the AI and I would certainly want to know how the AI makes decisions with the decks you build especially against opponents that have successfully defeated your keep. This way, players will be able to fine-tune the defense decks accordingly and make it more challenging over time.