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Gwaer
08-09-2013, 01:38 PM
@Yoss many people in the community were calling for an impartial thread to list the pros and cons of any economic decision. There is no perfect answer to this question. There are many possible solutions, each of them will have associated drawbacks. The idea in the end is to pick the one with the drawbacks that are the easiest to mitigate in a game. We want the least intrusive, and least confusing option. That way people can enjoy the game, and it can be easily maintained to last throughout the ages regardless of what userbase fluctuations, or any other speedbumps arise.

In that spirit I have created this thread. You're free to push whatever agendas you like in your own. It was obvious that I wasn't going to get through to you there. If you'd like to add any points feel free to suggest them below.

This is a list of the pros and cons for various implementations of different currencies, or auction houses.
Please suggest other options, and any pros/cons you can think of or expand the list of listed pros/cons


Closed Currency system (There is a fixed amount of gold in existence, never changing, thus gold is not inflationary)
Pros


Gold doesn't lose value from inflation so people hoarding gold don't have less buying power

Cons

Gold gains value from deflation so people hoarding gold have more buying power
Gold increasing in value means it will eventually become more valuable than plat, meaning super cheap items that may have sold for gold are now unsellable.
Plat becomes the less valuable currency
Gold sinks stop functioning because the value of doing the action that is a gold sink isn't high enough to account for the fact that each individual gold is worth more than $1 USD.


Gold comes only from PVE play. (There is no other source.)
Pros


You have to PVE, or trade with someone who has spent time with PVE to get gold.

Cons


CZE loses out on the percentage of people who would buy plat to turn it into gold through them which could make a lot of money


Plat comes only from CZE for $US at some rate. (There is no other source.)
Pros


CZE makes money for each and every plat that enters the system

Cons


CZE cannot incentivize tournaments with a plat reward.


For currency resolution, we need either fractional transactions or a rate of $1:X Plat, where X is some power of ten.
Pros

Will simplify platinum transactions by easily allowing the sale of items for less than 1 plat

Cons

Complicates currency for new players
Can end up with a fractional plat you cannot spend with CZE



Plat and Gold can be traded Player to Player at a floating market rate on the AH.
Pros


Easily facilitates players in going from either paid for plat to gold or from farming gold to plat for f2p PVP

Cons


Makes it trivially easy for botters to convert gold to plat, where they would previously have had to work for trades to make it happen they can instantaneously buy plat, which could further the need for selective rollbacks when they are discovered


Except for currency trades, the AH runs entirely on Plat. All AH listings show the Gold-equivalent-price in parenthesis
Pros


??? Not sure

Cons


Forces an additional step on f2p players of converting out their gold, unless it auto buys and autoconverts their gold to plat... In which case it is using both currencies anyway


Bid/Ask system in place of a normal AH
Pros


Can easily set a price you would like to purchase something and have someone fill that order when they feel the price is reasonable

Cons


Complicates the auction house with different types of purchases, you can set a price to buy an item at and hope it gets that low, or you can buy at its current price.
Makes it complicated to look for cards with special qualities. Would need check boxes or some way to indicate that you're looking for every possible trophy, exp amount, foil, alternate art, extended art, achievement, notable event, etc.



Implement a third currency that is only used to purchase things from CZE
Pros


Can't easily be used to manipulate the economy?

Cons



Pushes plat out of its intended role, so we'd have to find some reason to not make gold directly purchasable for cash and remove plat all together? Or use plat drops in game and remove gold altogether?


(I'm not actually sure what this one is trying to do, I'll update it as that's made more clear)

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 01:39 PM
More pros and cons for more things!

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 01:39 PM
Yet more pros and cons for yet more things!

Stok3d
08-09-2013, 01:40 PM
Placeholder 3

Shadowelf
08-09-2013, 02:08 PM
So what am i winning if i'll be placeholder 4 ? or better placeholder #4 :p

keldrin
08-09-2013, 02:35 PM
More arguments for and against the yet more things to come.

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 02:37 PM
I think we probably have enough placeholders. =)

keldrin
08-09-2013, 02:42 PM
[B]Plat comes only from CZE for $US at some rate. (There is no other source.)
Pros


CZE makes money for each and every plat that enters the system

Cons


CZE cannot incentivize tournaments with a plat reward.


For currency resolution, we need either fractional transactions or a rate of $1:X Plat, where X is some power of ten.
Pros

Will simplify platinum transactions by easily allowing the sale of items for less than 1 plat

Cons

Complicates currency for new players
Can end up with a fractional plat you cannot spend with CZE



Plat and Gold can be traded Player to Player at a floating market rate on the AH.
Pros


Easily facilitates players in going from either paid for plat to gold or from farming gold to plat for f2p PVP

Cons


Makes it trivially easy for botters to convert gold to plat, where they would previously have had to work for trades to make it happen they can instantaneously buy plat, which could further the need for selective rollbacks when they are discovered

[/LIST]

I still stand by, a third currency. That would have limited use. Namely only usable for purchases directly from CZE, like tournament fees, booster packs, and VIP program. This would allow them to offer this currency as rewards, while not impacting the auction house, and could be illegal for transfer or exchange, locking the currency to the one account. (could still buy boosters and do what you want with them though)
If they wanted a direct through CZE exchange for gold, it could be to this currency. Again, not wanting to directly impact AH as much. And if Plat ibecome available for cash out in some way, the 3rd currency wouldn't directly impact that.

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 02:48 PM
I'll add it to the list, What problem is it trying to solve? Also what role would plat play if it doesn't buy things from CZE? That's pretty much all it does currently.

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 02:59 PM
Okay, so you can buy plat, and you can buy lets call them jewels, and you can't buy gold.

Plat can cash out to dollars, jewels cannot. Plat can't be turned into jewels, but gold can.

Plat doesn't buy stuff from CZE but Jewels do.

Is all of that correct?

Stok3d
08-09-2013, 06:49 PM
I am a supporter of dual AH with separate economies. I also think the solution with currency conversion for plat/gold should be done in a D3 style. However, Cory mentioned something in his last podcast stating that models were being run for Gold possibly being purchasable for money. I wonder what effect that will have or if there will actually be a currency conversion via AH?

Thoughts?

Gwaer
08-09-2013, 07:04 PM
D3 had a lot of issues with item duping that caused their gold to have massive inflation, most of that was caused by the way blizzard handled lost items though. Likely it could be a workable system, I'll add it in the OP. I really need to put the expected AH/currency behaviors pros and cons in as well. Primarily I just wanted to summarise the issues that were currently hotly contested.

Yoss
08-14-2013, 07:13 PM
One of the other Mod Bots started the PM between the Mod Bot team to suggest closing this thread. I did not start the discussion, but did give my input as requested, which included a statement that (1) I should not be the one to make the final decision because of conflict of interest and (2) I had temporarily closed the thread pending final decision (in hindsight I see item 2 was a mistake). Upon final thread closure*, none of us posted an explanation. This was a poor choice and the cause of a bit of upheaval in the community.

In PMs since that time, it has come to light that none of the mod bots want to take responsibility for the closure, nor for finally posting an explanation. However, someone on the Mod Bot team needs to post a reason for closure of what might otherwise seem to be a perfectly legitimate thread so I will do it.

*I had made an interim closure so things would not progress too far while the PM discussion was going on. Another bot made the final closure. This is a large part of the confusion.

Relevant Code of Conduct section, for reference:
http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Creating Duplicate Threads

This thread is not sufficiently different than the one it duplicated:
http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26789

Not only that, but the thread creator was very explicit in intent (emphasis mine):

[post 200]
Alright, I'm not dealing with this thread any longer, I'm going to make this exact thread as a pros/cons discussion of possible economic decisions.
In addition, the owner of the other thread (Yoss, at post 199 of the linked thread, speaking not as a mod) had said he would be updating the OP to include alternatives and explanations as Gwaer had been agitating for.

Two hours later, slightly after this duplicate thread was posted, the major OP update of the original thread was completed as promised.

With that said, I still say I should not be the one to decide whether to close this due to my personal conflict of interest as owner of the duplicated thread. I continue to abstain from passing judgement, and as such cannot overturn the previous closure (not performed by me). Another Mod Bot may feel free to step in and make a new ruling to replace my abstention, and any user may petition by PM for a new decision, if desired.

I am sorry for the trouble, both for my part as well as any other poor behaviors on the part of the Mod Bots. We are new to the job and hopefully will learn and get better with time. I know I am not always right, and try my best to admit when I am wrong (e.g. item 2 above). I am sorry for any confusion and hope we can all have a reasonable discussion on this topic in the appropriate ways, either in the other thread or both threads simultaneously.