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Feegert
08-10-2013, 03:12 AM
I just watched the Twitch stream (Aug 9th) and my mind lit up with ideas I would like to share.

(I know the stream was pre-alpha but maybe this will help.)


The Phantom Game Mode
The idea is that the player can toggle a "preview" mode during any match that is an exact copy of the current board state except the player has access to several key features upon activating "Phantom Game."

All Troops (even opponent's troops) will have a button labeled "Attack".

Pressing "attack" will cause the appropriate player will lose that amount of health if that creature were to attack unblocked (battle effects will be applied as such as Lifegain and Rage).
The game will display the number of times each Troop has "attacked" above the appropriate Troop.
Battle effects that involve revealing concealed cards, such as "opponent must discard a card", will use a place holder card instead.
The player's life totals will be allowed to go negative for the purpose of showing how much damage needs to be prevented.
Each player's life totals will have manual controls as well to easily calculate/track blocks for creatures with Crush, or a triggered burn effect.


All Basic Action and Quick Actions can be cast regardless of available Resources

The game will have a real-time Resource tracker that tells the player how many Resources they have left (even if negative).
Actions that involve revealing concealed cards, such as "opponent must discard a card", will use a place holder card instead.


Why Phantom Game mode?
Games will (almost) never meet a premature demise due to a time shortage. Players will easily be able to calculate how many they can last from which creatures in a matter of seconds, no matter how clogged the board is or how many options they have in their hand.

Anyone who has ever played a TCG before has encountered the frustration of messing up a beautifully articulate battle by trying to calculate the damage in their head (players back me up here) and losing the game because of it.

Phantom Game mode doesn't give the player access to anything that they don't already have, so it's not abusable.

This game mode would be yet another step to the already huge leap you guys have made at making Hex different from every other TCG. You are the only ones who can do this!

I think this will also help newer players get into Hex because they will be able to visually think out their strategies.




I hope this has been helpful to you Gameplay Designers in some way.

Being one of the only game developers that reach out to the community, I thank you for taking the time to read this.

As to the rest of the community, please discuss. I know Hex has a dedicated community and I would love to hear some feedback.

I know I'm not the only one who has lost a TCG game due to trying to figure out everything in my head!

EDIT: 8/10/13
The Phantom Game mode is completely optional.

I understand that many of you are concerned about the game getting dulled down, or fun and skill will be banished to the shadow realm.

However, think about this. A four function calculator is given to Algebra test-takers for one reason. Because the problems go much farther than just basic math. You must have in-depth understanding of the concepts, variables, equations and approach to the problem if you wish to solve it correctly.

Hex is a complex game that goes much farther than just the addition of 2-3 turns worth of damage and there is nothing that is forcing you to use this tool.

Want to do it in your head because it's more fun?
Go for it. No one is stopping you.

Other players will have an unfair advantage?
Calculators exist. When you get rid of all of those, you still have pen and paper to deal with.

Phantom Game mode will slow down the game?
This mode is a visual thinking tool. It operates at the speed of the user. This is same as saying that calculators will slow down the solving of a math problem.

This will remove skill and fun from the game?
Fear not, the depth of Hex goes much farther than basic math.

hammer
08-10-2013, 05:19 AM
Confused # isn't figuring out and planning your moves in your head part of the fun and skill of playing a TCG.

Chiany
08-10-2013, 05:24 AM
Confused # isn't figuring out and planning your moves in your head part of the fun and skill of playing a TCG.

My thoughts also, not everything should be chewed out for you, simply because it can be done.

Kates
08-10-2013, 05:29 AM
I agree with Hammer. I thought part of the challenge was to be able to keep track of all of those things and plan accordingly. It can be very difficult, yes. It also can mean the difference between winning and losing, but it's very much a part of the game. If I can't keep track of what's on the board or miscalculate damage I don't deserve to win.

I also wonder about the timing of Phantom Game and turns in general. How long do we really have to sit and stare at the board? The Phantom Game would surely add to the time taken for each turn and not necessarily in a good way.

Shadowelf
08-10-2013, 05:32 AM
Confused # isn't figuring out and planning your moves in your head part of the fun and skill of playing a TCG.


My thoughts also, not everything should be chewed out for you, simply because it can be done.

My sentiments exactly

Part of what separates a good from a bad player is the calculations you are mentioning ;)

Unhurtable
08-10-2013, 05:57 AM
I like this proposal. Some things might need to be ironed out (how do random mechanics work within this scenario?).

I see this as something new players could use to a great extent. Personally I would always think "what if my opponent can use this card?" and would probably use my time to think about what the enemy can do rather than what I can do.

If this causes games to take longer, you could always disable it in PvP.

Kroan
08-10-2013, 05:57 AM
Agree with all the responses given so far, this doesn't seem like a good idea

Dralon
08-10-2013, 05:59 AM
Making bonehead plays and miscalculating is part of what defines me, I wouldn't want that joy taken away from my opponents :).

Maphalux
08-10-2013, 06:02 AM
Use the force, Luke.

Kamino72
08-10-2013, 06:08 AM
It could be a nice feature to study recorded games. Friends would be able to join and comment.

Diesbudt
08-10-2013, 06:43 AM
Agree with all the responses given so far, this doesn't seem like a good idea

I also agree. This is not a good, or needed idea.

Part of TCG's is remembering what you did, where you are going on your strategy, and thinking ahead far enough to play each turn when it comes up.

ossuary
08-10-2013, 06:54 AM
It certainly is an interesting idea, and I could definitely see it being incorporated into the tutorial portions of the game, to give additional help to newer players (it's nice to see how things will play out and interact when you are getting started). But I agree this probably isn't a feature that should be in the main or PVP portion of the game... at that point, you need to be relying on your own skill.

Don't be discouraged by the negative feedback! It was a good idea. Keep thinking. :)

Maphalux
08-10-2013, 07:00 AM
My comment was very tongue-in-cheek. I hope it didn't come off negative. I support your ideas, OP!

Stok3d
08-10-2013, 07:42 AM
Making bonehead plays and miscalculating is part of what defines me, I wouldn't want that joy taken away from my opponents :).

lol. Dralon--you almost had me spit my lemonade on my screen I was drinking.
I do have to say this is very quote worthy :p

Nicalapegus
08-10-2013, 07:57 AM
If the best calculated move is plotted out for you... then how is this a game anymore? So basically you want World of Warcraft's baby mode play in Hex? No thanks.

Gwaer
08-10-2013, 08:16 AM
It could be fine as a continued help mode in pve for very new players I guess... but it might just end up being a crutch that people use too much until it makes their transition to pvp more difficult. Hard to say.

ossuary
08-10-2013, 08:25 AM
If the best calculated move is plotted out for you... then how is this a game anymore? So basically you want World of Warcraft's baby mode play in Hex? No thanks.

He is not asking for it to play the game for you or show you the best move. He is asking for a virtual turn interface that lets you see what the result of the current selections would be, i.e. "if I block this guy with this troop, and that guy with this 2nd troop, and those other 2 guys get through, what happens to the troops and my life total?"

That's completely different from "suggest the best move for me" (which, incidentally, lots of chess programs already include, so it's not like even that level of computer assist is actually all that crazy).

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-10-2013, 09:23 AM
I don't think it'd be good to have it within normal games, as it'd slow down play which may be frustrating to the other player (consider that if drafts end up being similar in length to MTGO you'll be giving up around ~2 to ~3 hours without this feature). It's not a bad idea, but I think it either belongs in a 'replay' mode (where the computer plays as your opponent and has the same deck and drawn card order, but you can take whatever actions you want), or a special game mode so that both players have to agree to be in it before starting (this kind of mode could be potentially good for deck testing though).

HyenaNipples
08-10-2013, 09:31 AM
These types of systems are all over Chess websites- but not during live games I don't think.

noragar
08-10-2013, 10:07 AM
I agree that it shouldn't be a part of live games, but I think it would be cool during replays to have a button that runs the current situation through the AI and outputs the moves that it would have made.

Nicalapegus
08-10-2013, 10:37 AM
He is not asking for it to play the game for you or show you the best move. He is asking for a virtual turn interface that lets you see what the result of the current selections would be, i.e. "if I block this guy with this troop, and that guy with this 2nd troop, and those other 2 guys get through, what happens to the troops and my life total?"

That's completely different from "suggest the best move for me" (which, incidentally, lots of chess programs already include, so it's not like even that level of computer assist is actually all that crazy).

It's essentially the same thing. It plans it out for you so you can determine the best move instead of using your brain and your wits.

Gorgol
08-10-2013, 10:59 AM
No. Just no. Do not implement. What's the point of playing anymore? Is this even still a game? This is probably the single WORST idea I've seen come out of these forums so far.

Barkam
08-10-2013, 12:31 PM
If this is implemented, then most of the layers of complexities inherent to the game where skill can flourish is eliminated. In other words, this will dumb down the game where it is no longer interesting. Good games have a lot of opportunities for mistakes. Just like in any competition, whoever makes the least amount of mistakes (and most luck) wins.

Banquetto
08-10-2013, 03:30 PM
He is not asking for it to play the game for you or show you the best move. He is asking for a virtual turn interface that lets you see what the result of the current selections would be, i.e. "if I block this guy with this troop, and that guy with this 2nd troop, and those other 2 guys get through, what happens to the troops and my life total?"

Figuring that sort of thing out is very much the essence of skill when it comes to execution in a TCG. And imho TCGs are all about resources (owning the cards), strategy (building the deck) and execution (playing the cards).

I really, really don't like the idea of a helper doing this for you. It undermines one of the three key pillars of the game.

Feegert
08-10-2013, 04:06 PM
He is not asking for it to play the game for you or show you the best move. He is asking for a virtual turn interface that lets you see what the result of the current selections would be, i.e. "if I block this guy with this troop, and that guy with this 2nd troop, and those other 2 guys get through, what happens to the troops and my life total?"

That's completely different from "suggest the best move for me" (which, incidentally, lots of chess programs already include, so it's not like even that level of computer assist is actually all that crazy).

Thank you, I think you're the only one that is understanding this idea correctly.

Phantom Game mode still lets the player make decisions.

Feegert
08-10-2013, 04:18 PM
No. Just no. Do not implement. What's the point of playing anymore? Is this even still a game? This is probably the single WORST idea I've seen come out of these forums so far.

I don't think you took the time to read the post. In the event that you're not bandwagoning, let us discuss math.

If I gave you a four-function calculator, how far could you get on an Einstein-level calculus equation?

Without proper understanding of the correct sequence of variables, you would get nowhere.

This concept is merely a calculator for the numbers of the game not the gameplay.

Maybe I am mistaken, but when I play TCG's my gameplay is much more elaborate than just adding the attack of 4 creatures.

Feegert
08-10-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't think it'd be good to have it within normal games, as it'd slow down play which may be frustrating to the other player (consider that if drafts end up being similar in length to MTGO you'll be giving up around ~2 to ~3 hours without this feature). It's not a bad idea, but I think it either belongs in a 'replay' mode (where the computer plays as your opponent and has the same deck and drawn card order, but you can take whatever actions you want), or a special game mode so that both players have to agree to be in it before starting (this kind of mode could be potentially good for deck testing though).

The way Phantom Game would be designed, it would not slow down the game by any means. The whole idea is to get players focused more on sequencing, combos, and execution.

Since when does using pen and paper to solve a math problem make it take longer to solve in comparison to mental math?

Only when the problem is too easy (ex. 14-7 = ?).

ossuary
08-10-2013, 04:42 PM
To those saying it would no longer be a game, or that it's the worst idea in the history of ever, why not try again, without the hyperbole? Does that kind of attitude really accomplish anything? If you really feel this is such a detrimental idea to the normal game, could it not still have merit as a learning tool, only available in the tutorial, as per my modified suggestion?

Feegert
08-10-2013, 05:00 PM
I like this proposal. Some things might need to be ironed out (how do random mechanics work within this scenario?).

I see this as something new players could use to a great extent. Personally I would always think "what if my opponent can use this card?" and would probably use my time to think about what the enemy can do rather than what I can do.

If this causes games to take longer, you could always disable it in PvP.

Exactly. Remove the simple math out of the way for players to focus more on advanced tactics, execution, combos and other options.

Random mechanics could give you a random placeholder card of it's type (Troop, Action, Resource) just so you could fish out any particular option you need to test your combo.

Dralon
08-10-2013, 07:13 PM
As a real response, this idea should not be available at all during any game in pvp or the PVE storyline.

However, as some have pointed out, it could be a great idea in a tutorial scenario or as a game replay feature as a learning tool.

BarackOjama
08-10-2013, 07:35 PM
Alot of game designer would probably go ocd in this idea. They would probably say something like attrition or burden of knowledge or something between those two. In league of legends, the designers are frequently open to this kind of post and will likely post bullet points why so. It would be cool if the higher ups as in this kind of community join with this kind of discussion as it would give an impression of bond to their community. :D

Gorgol
08-10-2013, 08:10 PM
To those saying it would no longer be a game, or that it's the worst idea in the history of ever, why not try again, without the hyperbole? Does that kind of attitude really accomplish anything? If you really feel this is such a detrimental idea to the normal game, could it not still have merit as a learning tool, only available in the tutorial, as per my modified suggestion?

Sure, tutorial only. Its a great idea for part of a tutorial. For anywhere else, PVP or PVE, its still the worst idea in the history of ever.

Chiany
08-10-2013, 09:53 PM
To those saying it would no longer be a game, or that it's the worst idea in the history of ever, why not try again, without the hyperbole? Does that kind of attitude really accomplish anything? If you really feel this is such a detrimental idea to the normal game, could it not still have merit as a learning tool, only available in the tutorial, as per my modified suggestion?

As long as it is only against the AI and not actual players, I have no problem with it.
But this should not go further then that.

So in the Tutorial: Yes
Anywhere beyond that: No!!!!

Feegert
08-10-2013, 11:05 PM
As a real response, this idea should not be available at all during any game in pvp or the PVE storyline.

However, as some have pointed out, it could be a great idea in a tutorial scenario or as a game replay feature as a learning tool.

Come on you guys! This is a forum not a voting booth! Argue a point please :)

Feegert
08-10-2013, 11:07 PM
As long as it is only against the AI and not actual players, I have no problem with it.
But this should not go further then that.

So in the Tutorial: Yes
Anywhere beyond that: No!!!!

Please argue a point!

Feegert
08-10-2013, 11:08 PM
Sure, tutorial only. Its a great idea for part of a tutorial. For anywhere else, PVP or PVE, its still the worst idea in the history of ever.

Gorgol I would love to hear you argue a point other than "worst idea in the history of ever." Please contribute something useful to your argument and this discussion :)

Feegert
08-10-2013, 11:22 PM
Alot of game designer would probably go ocd in this idea. They would probably say something like attrition or burden of knowledge or something between those two. In league of legends, the designers are frequently open to this kind of post and will likely post bullet points why so. It would be cool if the higher ups as in this kind of community join with this kind of discussion as it would give an impression of bond to their community. :D

Thank you BarackOjama I would be delighted to have this discussion reach the developers! What do you personally think of the idea and why?

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-10-2013, 11:31 PM
The way Phantom Game would be designed, it would not slow down the game by any means. The whole idea is to get players focused more on sequencing, combos, and execution.

Since when does using pen and paper to solve a math problem make it take longer to solve in comparison to mental math?

Only when the problem is too easy (ex. 14-7 = ?).
Except we're not talking about a simple maths problem. We're talking about different lines of play, and from the sound of it, you can try multiple lines rather than just one or two.

Essentially, if a player with a fair amount of experience is playing against a less experienced opponent who needs to use this function, I can imagine quite a few turns where they're forced to wait an extra minute or two while the opponent goes through trying different permutations of attacking or blocking in order to find their optimum setup for the board state. In a draft that's multi-hour already, having to wait that extra time would certainly be frustrating.

This definitely sounds like a training tool/custom game option - it shouldn't be in 'standard' games.

Also, as a training tool/custom game you'd get a lot more functionality out of it. Rather than just "attack/block and see what damage happens with nothing else occuring", you'd be able to do entire games with the computer getting the same cards your opponent would have, and you'd be able to test lines of play through entire games rather than just one combat phase. As a training tool, I'd actually really like to see this idea.

Kroan
08-10-2013, 11:32 PM
The reason why this would be bad would be the same reason as an autopilot AI playing for you. Besides that it's only confusing for new players and useless for experienced players. The last thing is that there are so many variables to consider that a "simulation" is either so basic that it doesn't tell you anything or so elaborate that it takes way to much time to run through all the different scenario's.

Maybe instead of quadruple posting you'll have to accept people don't like this idea.

Chiany
08-10-2013, 11:35 PM
Please argue a point!

I already did in my first post in this Thread, but I'll explain further.

All points you want in this "Phantom Mode" are things each player needs to learn to do themselve.
They maybe hard for new players to learn, but that is part of the challenge.

Like I said, simply because CZE can build this in the game, doesn't mean they should, simply to make it easier for players to calculate the outcome of all possible moves that can be done.

Feegert
08-10-2013, 11:47 PM
Use the force, Luke.

Laugh out loud, I like this :)

Feegert
08-11-2013, 12:53 AM
I already did in my first post in this Thread, but I'll explain further.

All points you want in this "Phantom Mode" are things each player needs to learn to do themselve.
They maybe hard for new players to learn, but that is part of the challenge.

Like I said, simply because CZE can build this in the game, doesn't mean they should, simply to make it easier for players to calculate the outcome of all possible moves that can be done.

Sorry my mistake. I didn't remember your tag from early in the thread.

All of the features that I mentioned are available to the player regardless of Phantom mode.

If Phantom mode truly removes a vital process of learning the Hex, then who is going to stop the players that pick up a pen and paper? Who is going to stop the players that use a calculator?

What is the difference between players that have access to calculators, pen, paper, and the players that would have access to Phantom mode?

Barkam
08-11-2013, 12:58 AM
Sorry my mistake. I didn't remember your tag from early in the thread.

All of the features that I mentioned are available to the player regardless of Phantom mode.

If Phantom mode truly removes a vital process of learning the Hex, then who is going to stop the players that pick up a pen and paper? Who is going to stop the players that use a calculator?

What is the difference between players that have access to calculators, pen, paper, and the players that would have access to Phantom mode?

So it sounds like Phantom mode is moot because people can just use pen, paper and a calculator. Problem solved! Good job solving your own problem. :)

Chiany
08-11-2013, 01:13 AM
Sorry my mistake. I didn't remember your tag from early in the thread.

All of the features that I mentioned are available to the player regardless of Phantom mode.

If Phantom mode truly removes a vital process of learning the Hex, then who is going to stop the players that pick up a pen and paper? Who is going to stop the players that use a calculator?

What is the difference between players that have access to calculators, pen, paper, and the players that would have access to Phantom mode?

Visualizing things on the actual playing field makes a lot of difference I think.
ppl can use tools ofcourse like pen and paper, but they still have to obide by the time limit per turn/move.

funktion
08-11-2013, 02:25 AM
Not every idea is a special little snowflake. If a bunch of people think the idea is pretty poor for good reasons they shouldn't have to further argue those reasons to validate you. It's a bad idea, let people enjoy their own learning curve. Having the game coddle you along isn't really helpful to anyone.

You need to make mistakes in order to learn from them and just putting all the combat math right out there without learning how it all takes place doesn't seem like it moves the game any further. It lowers the skill cap, depth is a good thing.

Edit: also you should avoid double, triple, and even quadruple posting so much. The edit button is your friend and the mods will love you long time for using it.

ossuary
08-11-2013, 10:45 AM
Holy crap, I got people on the internet to partially agree to a compromise position. There's hope for humanity yet! :)

Nicalapegus
08-11-2013, 01:12 PM
This is going to cost a lot of development time for something not supported 100% by the playerbase. For that reason it won't be implemented.

As an aside, it's also a horrible idea which goes against the entire idea of TCGs.

Feegert
08-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Not every idea is a special little snowflake. If a bunch of people think the idea is pretty poor for good reasons they shouldn't have to further argue those reasons to validate you. It's a bad idea, let people enjoy their own learning curve. Having the game coddle you along isn't really helpful to anyone.

You need to make mistakes in order to learn from them and just putting all the combat math right out there without learning how it all takes place doesn't seem like it moves the game any further. It lowers the skill cap, depth is a good thing.

Edit: also you should avoid double, triple, and even quadruple posting so much. The edit button is your friend and the mods will love you long time for using it.


If a bunch of people think the idea is pretty poor for good reasons they shouldn't have to further argue those reasons to validate you.

"Worst idea ever" is not a "good reason." I accidentally asked someone to provide a reason that already did but I'm trying to get people to share ideas, not votes.


putting all the combat math right out there without learning how it all takes place doesn't seem like it moves the game any further
You are correct, if a player doesn't know how "it all takes place" then Phantom mode will not be of any use to that player only because Phantom mode is not giving the players anything that is unavailable to them.

Phantom mode is independent to the understanding of how Hex is played. You can take any person off the street and ask them to add/subtract several numbers and they could do it. Take that same person and ask them to play a game of Hex and they will be lost.

Why is that? Because adding/subtracting numbers is not the gameplay of Hex. Numbers are the foundation from which Hex is built because it is used as measurement, but knowing the values of numbers does not grant understanding of the game.


It lowers the skill cap
If a device that add/subtracts numbers lowers the skill cap, then wouldn't calculators be cheating? Calculators would give the player an advantage over other players and therefore fall into the same category as aimbots and damage mods.

What about the feature that highlights the cards in your hand that are able to be played? Shouldn't that be removed from the game? Players are being given direct guidance on which cards to play, shouldn't they do that in their head?

You can have a four-function calculator on a math test, but if you don't know how to dissect a word problem, pick out all of the variables, and solve for them in the right sequence, then you're going to have a bad time.


Edit: also you should avoid double, triple, and even quadruple posting so much. The edit button is your friend and the mods will love you long time for using it.
I apologize, this is my first forum post and I am unaware of the proper etiquette. Are you suggesting that I wait until other people have posted before I reply to another post? Or are you suggesting that I reply to people by editing the original post? Or both?

I understand that Phantom mode doesn't offer any vital gameplay mechanics (ex. keeping track of life points) but I think Phantom mode falls into the same category as the feature that highlights cards that are available to be played. Both are unnecessary features, but they let the player focus on deeper parts of the game.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-11-2013, 02:09 PM
Highlighting cards that you can play doesn't slow down a game; if anything it speeds it up. Allowing players to play a pretend turn while their opponent waits? That slows down the game.

While you can argue that it's no slower than if a player mentally calculates (or uses a pen and paper) to determine various combat damages and the best course for combat, those 'calculations' are so simple that, to put it bluntly, only the worst player would find this phantom method faster.

Again, I've got no problem with it - but only for single player, or in custom games (where both players can agree to it). Depending on how it's implemented, it could actually be good for decktesting and refinement, so the pro scene could get behind it. However, I don't want this slower process in my competitive matches. ^^

Gwaer
08-11-2013, 02:29 PM
Argument 1

You can take any person off the street and ask them to add/subtract several numbers and they could do it. Take that same person and ask them to play a game of Hex and they will be lost.

Why is that? Because adding/subtracting numbers is not the gameplay of Hex. Numbers are the foundation from which Hex is built because it is used as measurement, but knowing the values of numbers does not grant understanding of the game.

Which leads into argument 2.

If a device that add/subtracts numbers lowers the skill cap, then wouldn't calculators be cheating? Calculators would give the player an advantage over other players and therefore fall into the same category as aimbots and damage mods.


You state adding and subtracting is not the goal, and it shouldn't be compared to "phantom mode" then you turn around and compare it to using a calculator that would only help with adding and subtracting?

jimmywolf
08-11-2013, 03:07 PM
i agree with others, their a lot variables that go into each move you could do, phantom mode would not help you more then hurt you, since at no time would you know when a opponent would counter, or use a card that mit buff them making all the damage you thought you do fail.

however if this was a practice mode, too help you understand card damage with varies abilities, so you better understand complex plays on the fly. that would not be bad, but i would like this too be a low priority, if it considered .

funktion
08-11-2013, 03:58 PM
I apologize, this is my first forum post and I am unaware of the proper etiquette. Are you suggesting that I wait until other people have posted before I reply to another post? Or are you suggesting that I reply to people by editing the original post? Or both?

In general you want to avoid posting multiple times consecutively without anyone else in between. That only serves to bump up a post which other people likely don't have much interest in. Also you can just use the edit button to add something you left out...

Like this...
Edit: what you're asking for is a form of overlay or kinda like a UI helper mode... I think there's definitely a point at which it would just be information overload. For me I'd have it off 100% of the time, and in general there's just some features that seem "essential" but are far from it. I just don't think it's a good idea nor a necessary one, I know you'll keep pushing to say it is but that doesn't really change things.

Feegert
08-12-2013, 08:54 PM
In general you want to avoid posting multiple times consecutively without anyone else in between. That only serves to bump up a post which other people likely don't have much interest in. Also you can just use the edit button to add something you left out...

Like this...
Edit: what you're asking for is a form of overlay or kinda like a UI helper mode... I think there's definitely a point at which it would just be information overload. For me I'd have it off 100% of the time, and in general there's just some features that seem "essential" but are far from. I just don't think it's a good idea nor a necessary one, I know you'll keep pushing to say it is but that doesn't really change things.

"Seem essential?" I don't even know what you're talking about with that statement.

It is an overlay but it is completely independent from the real game you are playing. It merely serves to quickly add up creatures damage/action costs.

I understand that some people like to contemplate things in their heads and I can see why you would have it off 100% of the time.


I know you'll keep pushing to say it is but that doesn't really change things.
It seems to me that you think the majority is "unquestionably correct."

I don't feel like you're open to questioning (yourself or questioning of others) which destroys the foundation of discussion.

Deepdigger
08-13-2013, 08:02 AM
i won or lost countless games beacause of 1 damage to much or not enough.
Some of them was not seeing hidden effects or combos.
Its not like math is the only factor to win a game, sometimes its also mental strength.
Play for a couple of hours, it gets late, one is far ahead and gets confident in winning and makes mistakes. This preview would help him against a clear minded player.
Some things simply should not get automated. compare it to black jack with automatic card counting, some things make games pointless.

Eierdotter
08-13-2013, 08:51 AM
Since hex is digital and cards like the command tower push a 2/2 troop to a 3/2 (clarified as green number ON the card)
there is not much to think about except of simple 2. grade math + and - maybe *2 if you have the orc Te'Talca out.

So IMO this ghost mode is really pointless, would take me much longer to click every card and play them to see how much damage i would deal insted of simple doing it in my head.

Thelaasa
08-13-2013, 12:48 PM
I could see the phantom play mode being useful in a training aspect, such as trying to figure out why you lost a match or how you could have won a match that you lost, to help improve your play in the future. It could also be useful when it comes to testing out new deck build ideas or introducing new people to the game. That said, the way this system is proposed makes it sound like it is a training aid, something to help people develop the skills needed to play the game. I think that is why a lot of people are opposed to the idea. The way the OP is written makes it sound like it would be a system that could be used at any point in time, in any format, without regard to the opponent. PvP matches, specifically in tournament settings, but even in the more friendly settings, have always been about my skill versus your skill, not my ability to use a training program versus your skill. Being able to bring up a visual aid that would immediately tell you the results of any action you could think to take utterly removes any need for skill on the part of player using the system. It simply becomes a trial and error approach until you find the scenario that best benefits you. The whole point of pitting your skill against another person is to see if you are good enough, on your own, to best them. This system, as proposed, would do nothing more than provide a crutch for players to use to get the best results possible without having to bother to learn the game, it's systems, or it's strategies.

In summary, phantom play mode could potentially be useful from a training perspective, but in my opinion, it has no place anywhere outside of training.

Yoss
08-13-2013, 01:12 PM
This is not something I would choose to implement.

EntropyBall
08-13-2013, 01:33 PM
i won or lost countless games beacause of 1 damage to much or not enough.
Some of them was not seeing hidden effects or combos.
Its not like math is the only factor to win a game, sometimes its also mental strength.
Play for a couple of hours, it gets late, one is far ahead and gets confident in winning and makes mistakes. This preview would help him against a clear minded player.
Some things simply should not get automated. compare it to black jack with automatic card counting, some things make games pointless.

I think this is a good point against Phantom Mode. It does calculations that the player would otherwise have to do, and will occasionally miss. Juggling that multi-variable calculation in your hand during a game is part of the skill of the game. And that's what a lot of people posting here seem to want. Phantom Mode doesn't provide any true insight that is not already available, but it does eliminate the chance someone will mess up on the combat math or miss a special effect.

As a teaching tool, I still don't think its that great, just because there are important factors to consider in combat besides how the exact math works out. I think a more valuable learning tool would be something that records all your games and lets you go back (after a match) to any point during that match. I actually posted this idea here (http://forums.cryptozoic.com/showthread.php?t=26943) rather than trying to derail this thread with it.