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ExperThies
08-11-2013, 11:09 AM
Hello Everyone,

I'm a big supporter of Hex and look forward to Alpha. However, there are a couple of things I would like to see changed or at least tried. I hope this thread will be productive and supply Cryptozoic with some different things that they might want to try in Alpha. Please present clear issues and suggested solutions and let other people know if you agree with their ideas. Please do not post about how certain ideas are bad because you don't like them. If they are bad then other people will not post about how they are good. Just let the bad ones be. I hope your posts will be similar in nature to the following:

OBSERVATION: Mana flood and mana screw are not enjoyable and cause frustration. Cryptozoic clearly wants to mimic Magic and feels that other resource systems cause as many problems as they solve. However, Hex currently provides a charge counter when you play a resource which allows you to use your champions ability and lessens the negative effect of drawing too many resources. While the negative effect of drawing too many resources has been lessened, the negative effect of not drawing enough resources has been worsened. You are unable to play cards and you can not use your champions charge power. The problem is very apparent in almost all of the videos of people playing the game.

ISSUE: Mana Screw (Not drawing enough resources to play cards)

SOLUTION: I strongly suggest trying an alternate format in Alpha which allows players to discard/RFG (which ever is better for the game) one card from their hand per turn to gain one temporary resource point. I doubt this would alter deck construction but if it did it would be a minimal alteration. Additionally, this would reduce the frustration from mana screw and should increase the flow and playability of the game. Please consider this alternate format for testing in alpha.

MoikPEI
08-11-2013, 11:14 AM
>Cryptozoic clearly wants to mimic Magic
Trolling or serious?
It took me a while to understand the resource system, so I could see serious.
But that's the exact right troll to play on these forums.

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-11-2013, 11:15 AM
Wait, so you don't want people to post criticisms? How is that good for debate or discussion?

Ne'ertheless, while I can't give you figures about how many people have an issue with mana flood/screw and how many don't, I can tell you that I for one don't think it's a problem. A purely casual format that perhaps tackles it in one way or another would be fine IMO, but I for one wouldn't want this sort of change to affect PvP.

Gwaer
08-11-2013, 11:18 AM
Lessening the impact of mana flood in essence helped with mana screw, because you can now put more resources in your deck, and not be as penalized.

AbandonAllHope
08-11-2013, 12:59 PM
The whole point is to manage your resource count in your deck, which is part of the strategy of your deck. Everybody having the capability of discarding one card for a free resource during that turn is extremely powerful. It's like having 2 resource turn 1, and it could speed up a deck combo by an entire turn. I would strongly advise against it, since its all part of the deck building on deciding how many resources you want or don't want based on the expense of cards in your deck (or any other particular reason for your deck strategy)

HyenaNipples
08-11-2013, 01:04 PM
Kind of late in the game- around 2 years of design- to alter a fundamental element.

Shadowelf
08-11-2013, 01:20 PM
They will have an AI deckbuilding assistant that will help you build your resource base and fill out your curve; there will also be a 'goldfish' feature so that you can check your initial draw and a few draws after. I mean they recognize there might be a resource problem and come prepared to help us out.


update #10 AIDA http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=7

update #6 VIP http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8

jimmywolf
08-11-2013, 03:15 PM
They will have an AI deckbuilding assistant that will help you build your resource base and fill out your curve; there will also be a 'goldfish' feature so that you can check your initial draw and a few draws after. I mean they recognize there might be a resource problem and come prepared to help us out.


update #10 AIDA http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=7

update #6 VIP http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/hex-mmo-trading-card-game/posts?page=8

thanks for sharing good info

stiii
08-11-2013, 10:00 PM
>Cryptozoic clearly wants to mimic Magic
Trolling or serious?
It took me a while to understand the resource system, so I could see serious.
But that's the exact right troll to play on these forums.

It is obviously a true statement so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Kingrags
08-11-2013, 11:26 PM
I feel like resource screw is part of the game. a deck with 24 resources should only have a problem with that about 1/7 och the draws.

WWKnight
08-12-2013, 04:55 AM
I have been playing a lot of other games recently. I am very, very, very fond of Infinity Wars who has a system where you simply gain an extra base resource every turn. So turn 1, you have 1 resource. Turn 2, you have 2 resources. Turn 3, 3. Etc etc to a cap of 10.

While its great to never have to deal with mana screw (unless you are trying to play with 13 or 14 cost cards) or mana flood (you can spend resources to draw cards at any point), the fact is... its boring -_-

Its a terribly boring system to know whats coming every single turn. Once the meta is established, you can pretty much figure out how the games will all play out. While I am incredibly jaded by MtG, I do miss the days where I get to wish for a land drop top deck to win the game, or tapping the top of my deck to summon a game winning spell, only to draw a land.

These are experiences, for good or for bad, that increase the level of enjoyment in a game. If you can simply summon the resource whenever you want, you may think its great, but there will be a part of you that dies inside.

Shadowelf
08-12-2013, 05:04 AM
Best resource system for me was wow tcg's, and to tell you the truth, i was rather surprised that it wasn't implemented here given the fact that cze runs both games. At wow tcg you could play face down cards from hand as resources (limit 1 resource per turn still applied).

WWKnight
08-12-2013, 05:09 AM
Yeah I played that, and I really enjoyed it at the beginning, but then I ended up feeling bored with it as well, knowing I could get the resources I wanted whenever, and it also left a bad taste in my mouth whenever I had to drop a great card as a resource (which I believe is why they didnt go with it. A lot of players will hold onto their bombs and die. I think I read that somewhere, but I also may be making stuff up).

Shadowelf
08-12-2013, 05:17 AM
That was both strategic and convineint however; whether to sacrifice a good card for consistency or not. But you could play cards as resources if needed till you reached your top of the curve. This system ensured that you will hit that magic number always and in time and thus reducing somewhat the luck factor from matches and allowed players to play in equal terms.

WWKnight
08-12-2013, 05:21 AM
It was not, by any stretch, a bad system. I just love random chance. *shrug*

I like being mana screwed, I like being mana flooded. I like hitting the perfect combinations of cards to get the perfect start. I like the varied experiences.

On a side note, I HATE it when my opponent is mana screwed or flooded. At least IRL. Always feels so awkward.

Shadowelf
08-12-2013, 05:49 AM
It was not, by any stretch, a bad system. I just love random chance. *shrug*

I like being mana screwed, I like being mana flooded. I like hitting the perfect combinations of cards to get the perfect start. I like the varied experiences.


You must be one of a kind then :)


On a side note, I HATE it when my opponent is mana screwed or flooded. At least IRL. Always feels so awkward.

Well i hate it both ways; i hate it when i steal matches from my opponents this way, and equally i hate it when matches are stolen from me. But i accept random chance as a part of the game, so don't perceive this as a complaint; it just makes me feel uncomfortable when it happens

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-12-2013, 09:00 AM
Systems that give you a guaranteed resource each turn aren't without problems though. Rather than mana screw or flood being the main problem, the issue becomes getting curve screwed - that is, having cards in hand that don't allow you to maximise the use of your mana (ie. having a clutch full of either very cheap or too-expensive cards), against an opponent who is hitting the curve nicely.

Personally, I have no issue with the MTG/Hex style, and it's definitely easy to minimise. And upon doing so, mana screw/flood in those games is only as frequent as curve screw in a game like Infinity Wars.

Xintia
08-12-2013, 03:04 PM
Curve Screwed... I like that. I've been trying to find a term for games like IW (or Hearthstone, which looks like a similar system) when you get stuck with cards you still can't play. :P

zadies
08-12-2013, 07:31 PM
Issue really becomes in those types of systems they can't have multiple types they ae just one blanket resources so it doesn't allow for the kind of options they have already setup in this system. IW gets away from that due to the three champion thing but that doesn't really work when you have things that require more then 3.

Kates
08-15-2013, 06:02 AM
It was not, by any stretch, a bad system. I just love random chance. *shrug*

I like being mana screwed, I like being mana flooded. I like hitting the perfect combinations of cards to get the perfect start. I like the varied experiences.

I'm with you. If you could control the random aspects of the game you would be removing a key piece of what makes them fun albeit more challenging. Of course, no one likes to lose. It particularly sucks when there simply isn't anything you can do about it, but it's still part of the game. It happens to me often, but I'm able to laugh at how ridiculous and random it is. The variability of drawing resources seems to be a very fundamental part of the game, and one that should be factored into any strategy for deck building.
It also allows for potentially every match to be unique.

I just got over a serious addiction to Plants V. Zombies. Part of why I was able to kick the habit (cold turkey mind you:)) was the fact that I found a strategy that worked EVERYTIME. So each level I'd do the same thing over again. I know it's my fault for maybe having a lack of creativity, etc. but it got boring quickly.

I realize there is still an element of randomness involved in what is drawn aside from the resources under the proposed systems, but I don't think it's enough. Win or lose it is more fun to battle when your back is up against the wall! It is more rewarding to be challenged and rise to the occasion. If you disagree please go watch the Karate Kid. He was the best around and nothing's gonna ever keep him down. (And it's not just because he's from New Jersey)

SteB
08-15-2013, 08:51 AM
Hex has a build in mana sink mechanism in form of the champion abilities.
If you don't understand why anything stronger than that would ruin the game, how should i put it ... well then mana screw/flood are probaly not the things that should worry you the most ...

And even that could easily go over the top if some ability is slightly undercosted or something like that.

As for manascrew. Apart from really ridiculus manascrew that only happens like once every 10 games or something like that, mana screw isn't that bad at all.