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nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:08 PM
Another bunch of games with mana screw...

More than 50% of the hex games streamed had mana screw on them...

Way to not happen that often...

Xtopher
08-11-2013, 12:17 PM
Welcome to the world of true randomization as opposed to the mana-weaving that is a regular part of paper TCG's.

Hemlock
08-11-2013, 12:20 PM
They're using sub-optimal decks, by design. The designers aren't showing off their tournament-ready strategies, they're using basic pre-made decks that aren't built to have perfect curves. If the pre-made decks were optimized, then there'd be little point in building your own.

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:20 PM
True.

Ill still play HEX, looks amazing even with this problems.

But its a shame the fear on the developers part (and speccially on the community), that stops them from using the so famed digital aspect of this TCG to, if not stop, at least lessen the problem by a huge amount...

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:22 PM
They're using sub-optimal decks, by design. The designers aren't showing off their tournament-ready strategies, they're using basic pre-made decks that aren't built to have perfect curves. If the pre-made decks were optimized, then there'd be little point in building your own.

The fact that the deck is sup-optimal doesnt change the fact that i.e. the blue deck got 3 resources all game 4, or in game 3 he got so mana flooded that he couldnt get rid of all shards on hand before match was over... stop using the bad optimization excuse...

Kroan
08-11-2013, 12:36 PM
Oh god. Not another one of these topics. Can a mod lock this down with a link to another of these pointless topics?

chansen005
08-11-2013, 12:37 PM
i could have 40 mana in my deck and get mana screwed for the first 13 turns.... it's all probability, so i agree to drop the optimization deck thingy. But i honestly done believe you can change this mechanic... unless you wanta play "scrolls TCG"

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:43 PM
i could have 40 mana in my deck and get mana screwed for the first 13 turns.... it's all probability, so i agree to drop the optimization deck thingy. But i honestly done believe you can change this mechanic... unless you wanta play "scrolls TCG"

Even i could make changes to this mechanic to make it happen less often.
The mechanic would remain the same to the eyes of the player, everything happening behind the scenes and still maintaining an healthy degree of randomness. Also, completely unexploytable.

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:45 PM
Oh god. Not another one of these topics. Can a mod lock this down with a link to another of these pointless topics?

Or a mod could delete your post... were having an healthy discussion here... only pointless comment is yours.

Chiany
08-11-2013, 12:48 PM
Or a mod could delete your post... were having an healthy discussion here... only pointless comment is yours.

With 6 out of 9 posts are yours?

So Kroan is right, and it should be closed, since it has been discussed earlier.

Mr.Funsocks
08-11-2013, 12:54 PM
The fact that the deck is sup-optimal doesnt change the fact that i.e. the blue deck got 3 resources all game 4, or in game 3 he got so mana flooded that he couldnt get rid of all shards on hand before match was over... stop using the bad optimization excuse...

I don't think you understand what you're talking about...

MoikPEI
08-11-2013, 12:55 PM
I'm guessing the stream decks are half resources, half cards. They probably find it better to be able to get cards in play in order to be able to show their effects, so being over-mana'd is better than being shorted for the purposed of demo streaming. Plus, I think Resources give charges? If you wanna show champ chare abilities, you gotta be certain you're dropping a mana every turn.

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 12:59 PM
I don't think you understand what you're talking about...


I dont think you can even read what you quoted... How is it possible to not understand that?

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 01:00 PM
I'm guessing the stream decks are half resources, half cards. They probably find it better to be able to get cards in play in order to be able to show their effects, so being over-mana'd is better than being shorted for the purposed of demo streaming. Plus, I think Resources give charges? If you wanna show champ chare abilities, you gotta be certain you're dropping a mana every turn.

Hardly... considering the mana draughts in game 1 and game 3...

nrflorencio
08-11-2013, 01:04 PM
With 6 out of 9 posts are yours?

So Kroan is right, and it should be closed, since it has been discussed earlier.

My post count is not that high i fear... Also, i get bored of discussing with inferior minds quite fast, so i tend to stay absent from this forums for large periods of time. A blessing for you guys i suppose.

Nicalapegus
08-11-2013, 01:08 PM
With 6 out of 9 posts are yours?

So Kroan is right, and it should be closed, since it has been discussed earlier.

Quit backseat moderating. Let the mods be the mods.

Hemlock
08-11-2013, 01:24 PM
My post count is not that high i fear... Also, i get bored of discussing with inferior minds quite fast, so i tend to stay absent from this forums for large periods of time. A blessing for you guys i suppose.

... Jesus Christ.

blakegrandon
08-11-2013, 01:36 PM
... Jesus Christ.

And to think I was about to defend the OP....

Mana screw is a thing to be worried about especially given that this will play "different" than MTG.... I hope the numbers are crunched to give average players at least a chance to build a properly curved deck without requiring every player to do a ton of theorycrafting.

Ease of use dictates how large of a user base the game will get, if the pre-created decks provide a bad gaming experience people won't get into the game long enough to build their own deck, and if there isn't any guidance it could go downhill quickly.

What happened to the days of EQ 1 where google wasn't even a thing and quests didn't have yellow trails to follow and mini map icons telling you what to kill?

Are we as a species devolving to the point where simple math could really be a turnoff to a potential gamer?

Shadowelf
08-11-2013, 01:37 PM
They will have an AI deckbuilding assistant that will help you build your resource base and fill out your curve; there will also be a 'goldfish' feature so that you can check your initial draw and a few draws after. I mean they recognize there might be resource problem and come prepared to help us out.


update #10 AIDA http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...e/posts?page=7

update #6 VIP http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...e/posts?page=8

jaxsonbatemanhex
08-11-2013, 01:39 PM
OP, which deck are you talking about? The game where it looked like the orc deck was having mana problems (were I think Phil only got to 2 mana for most of the game), we have no idea what kind of hand he kept - I'm guessing it had 2-4 1-2 drops (can't remember how many he played), and then at least one 3 drop, and 2 sources - thus, a good, aggressive opening, and one source would see him be able to play most or all of his cards.

As for the sapphire deck, that deck was definitely not optimally constructed. Sapphire Aura did virtually nothing for the deck and was more often than not a dead card alongside the flight champ, at the very least.

All in all though I didn't see this demo as a bad sign for mana screw. Looks pretty normal and fine to me.

Rapkannibale
08-11-2013, 01:55 PM
One thing to consider is that this is a pre-alpha build. The randomization algorithms may not be perfectly tuned yet. Still, mana screw/flood will happen. I think people need to accept that the designers made a choice to go with this resource system and they have their reasons (which Ben Stoll has explained). No game is perfect, but for me Hex is the closest to the perfect online TCG so I will play it. There are plenty of good card games out there where mana/resources are not an issue. Hearthstone is one of them. It's just a different game.

Nicalapegus
08-11-2013, 03:41 PM
Mana screw/Mana flood are staples of TCGs. Hex combats this with the charge powers. Nuff said, stuff happens, move on. No reason to complain about this.

Phearbot
08-11-2013, 04:11 PM
I love mana screw, I played a lot of MagicTG and I think that mana sdrew/flood is what distinguishes a good player from a bad player.
Bad players always complain about mana s/f because they do not know how to build a good deck while good player use mana s/f to show that they are the best.
You can always have a bad luck hand ofc, but this is part of the game.
Go play Heartston, heroes of Warcraft if u want a stupid game with no tactics... no need to have mana cause u gain it every turn... so stupid...
Mana FTW!!!!

Mr.Funsocks
08-11-2013, 05:54 PM
I dont think you can even read what you quoted... How is it possible to not understand that?

A well-made deck in MtG seldomly faces screw/flood. A poorly made one does. These are sample/starter decks. They are not well-made.

There, does your "inferior mind" (your words) understand now, you egotistical little turd?

Stok3d
08-11-2013, 06:04 PM
This thread is going nowhere fast.

@nrflorencio: Please don't remark for the sole purpose of causing forum unrest Spamming or Trolling (http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Spamming or Trolling)
@Mr.Funsocks: Please don't take the bait and make harassing remarks. Harassing or Defamatory (http://www.cryptozoic.com/coc#Harassing or Defamatory)


[X] Thread Closed

Gerogero
08-11-2013, 06:04 PM
OP, which deck are you talking about? The game where it looked like the orc deck was having mana problems (were I think Phil only got to 2 mana for most of the game), we have no idea what kind of hand he kept - I'm guessing it had 2-4 1-2 drops (can't remember how many he played), and then at least one 3 drop, and 2 sources - thus, a good, aggressive opening, and one source would see him be able to play most or all of his cards.

As for the sapphire deck, that deck was definitely not optimally constructed. Sapphire Aura did virtually nothing for the deck and was more often than not a dead card alongside the flight champ, at the very least.

All in all though I didn't see this demo as a bad sign for mana screw. Looks pretty normal and fine to me.

In the first game, the orc deck did Mulligan to 5 cards so he didn't have a stellar choices to begin with.